What is "Powergaming,"?

[Duke]

Ok, so I always run into people on forums/ normal playing that throw around terms like "Cheese," and "Powergaming," I then began to think to myself about what all that means. Sometimes I think it is the ranting of a lesser player who is excusing their bad luck/ crappy playing. Sometimes it is the whinning of a good player who feels they can't get the upper hand. etc.

Mostly I hear two fields of complaints:
1. Army selection: I.E. if you take things that are non-fluff based simply because they are good ingame (two Daemon Princes..."Im here for wordl domination," "Me too!" "Great, lets share!" Both "Yipee for sharing!")

2. Playstyle: Typical complaints are the "alpha strike," "all reserves to counter my drop pods," and "Rules Lawyering when beneficial"


I suppose the question is "What is powergaming?" should players have to pick ineffective lists and play them soft to avoid being called cheesy?

Discuss to your hearts content...(Ducks for cover)


DUKE

[jahred]

I think the best example I have seen of it was in the recent BOLS regarding magic items in Warhammer.

There is a Chaos sword that has a descriptive text which explains how it hungers for blood, rips apart people and all that jazz. Its very clear that this a sword. Now, the special ability of this sword is that it allows you to re-roll wounds. Fair enough, the description of this sword fits its special power.

Now, the article said - give the sword to your spell caster so that he can re-roll wounds in spell casting. Whilst the descriptive text is of a sword, it doesn't spefically say that the swords ability can not be used for spell casting. Its a great example of RAI getting sidelined by RAW.

So, is that sheer brilliance for thinking outside the box or is that a power gamer who has ignored the items description in order to find an advantage?

Edit - Just found it, the weapon is "Rending Sword" and its description is "As it is swung, this ever hungry blade growls and snarls like a beast desperate for the taste of raw flesh".

[Duke]

Yea, I think most people can agree that is a specifically good example of powergaming. I think that most people say that when you stretch RAW or RAI then your guilty of powergaming... What about the other situations I mentioned?

Duke

[Melissia]

People argue that I powergame all the time.

Well I do. Screw those people, I HAVE to powergame with my Sisters army in order to win. What, are you telling me I should be forced to take a unit of Repentia in order to be accepted? Or maybe some arco-flagellants and nine penitent engines?

Actually I'd love to see someone with a 9 PE list. And maybe 9 sentinels too ontop of that.



Anyway.



There are some broken items out there, that's true, but for the most part armies aren't broken, and most lists aren't powergaming. I blame the Marine codex for people whining about powergaming personally-- people see "oh, that looks cool, I wanna take it!" and then whine when they realize their cool choices are overcosted.

[Aldramelech]

I think "Powergaming" is not about lists or rules, its about personality. Ive got no problem with any of the above. What I do have a problem with is nit picking, argumentative, unfriendly people with no manners. This to me is the "Powergamer".
Just because you're involved in a competition does not mean you have to behave like a dick!

[sketchesofpayne]

Power gaming is like bringing all queens to a game of chess. You'll very likely win, and it won't be that interesting of a game.

The only reason the queen is an interesting piece is because there's only one of them. You can get a second one, but only by skillfully maneuvering a pawn to the far side of the board behind enemy lines.

It's doing more with less that makes the game interesting. A knife fight in a bar has far more tension than two forces nuking each other. And even less so when one side just nukes the other. *BLAM!* gg.

[Melissia]

Except bringing all queens is against the rules of chess to begin with. Not entirely a good comparison...

[TSINI]

there is a time and a place for "powergaming" in terms of "playing to win" - tournements with big prizes. they started it by introucing prizes in the first place, when you make it competitive, you get people competing.

the problem I find is that some people forget the difference between a tournement, a pick up game with a new opponent and a friendly.

pummelling your friends in a game of 40k gets boring, especially for the pummellee.

I'm happy to take a vaguely competitive list to a tournement. I'd also never even consider tactical competitiveness when playikng a fun game against friends. I take what I want to take, what looks cool, or sounds right for the game, and to hell with who wins.

[TSINI]

I think "Powergaming" is not about lists or rules, its about personality. Ive got no problem with any of the above. What I do have a problem with is nit picking, argumentative, unfriendly people with no manners. This to me is the "Powergamer".
Just because you're involved in a competition does not mean you have to behave like a dick!


THIS!

Pointing out your opponents misunderstanding of a rule, or simply a plain mistake is perfectly fine. but bending, squashing, twisting and re-wording rules to your advantage over and over and over again is just being obnoxious.

[Chumbalaya]

Powergaming is another label people have dreamed up so they can justify brow-beating others into playing how they want to play. It's bullying, plain and simple, and it's pathetic.

I'm a powergamer. I play competitively using strong army lists and solid play. I'm also a good sport and I enjoy my hobby. These things are not mutually exclusive.

I play because I enjoy a challenging game against a strong opponent and a powerful list. Not everyone appreciates it and I can respect it, so I let live. If people want a training wheels fluff game, Apoc, or a funky scenario, it won't be my favorite thing to do but I'll take part and dumb down appropriately.

What really grinds my gears is people who think that their way is the only way and anybody who disagrees is against fun or whatever. How you play with your dollies does not reflect any inherent morality or purity, you twit. Die in a fire.

[oni]

Power-gaming to me is when a player looses sight of having a mutually enjoyable game and focuses purely on winning.

A 'win at all costs' player is a power-gamer who not only lost sight of having a mutually enjoyable game, but is so obsessed with winning that they'll employ dirty rules lawyering and under handed tricks.

[Duke]

My thing is that I kind of agree that powergaming is a state of mind. I bring the strongest list all the time, not becaue I am a winning only guy... But because why would I play to lose. Sometimes I bring 'fun,' stuff but I don't bring 'stupid,' stuff.

This is a powergamer in my opinion:
- A guy who knows your list, builds a specific list to counter your list and then makes jerk comments the whole time about how your 'all-comer,' list is getting trashed. Then they misinterpret rules in their favour and argue everytime you want to do something that might give you the upper-hand.

I have played against people that build their list to beat mine, but a laughing and joking and having fun (meanwhile admitting that they had to build a specific list to beat me). They are fair on the rules and will concede an argument if only for the sake of a fun game.

So for me it isn't the list, it is more about the attitude.


Duke

[jahred]

Power-gaming to me is when a player looses sight of having a mutually enjoyable game and focuses purely on winning.

A 'win at all costs' player is a power-gamer who not only lost sight of having a mutually enjoyable game, but is so obsessed with winning that they'll employ dirty rules lawyering and under handed tricks.

This is spot on.

It's someone who has forsaken the enjoyment of their opponment in order to win.

[Aldramelech]

What I was trying to say (badly!)

100% agreement.

[Lord Anubis]

Power-gaming to me is when a player looses sight of having a mutually enjoyable game and focuses purely on winning.

Agreed 100%.

I once watched a grown man grind a ten year old beginning player into the dirt. He didn't go even slightly easy. He didn't offer any pointers. He barely even acknowledged there was someone on the other side of the table, let alone a little kid who was just learning the game.

I think that's the best way of looking at a powergamer. Someone only thinking of their experience and not caring at all if their opponent enjoys the game or not.

[40kGamer]

I'm on board. The game should be fun for both players. To annoy metagamers I always bring a couple of very different armies (like Fast Mech Eldar and Gunline Marines) to the game club and decide on the fly which one I'll play on a given night. It plays havoc with those trying to game the list. :p

[Duke]

I did something like that once, I brought a bunch of individual units and rolled dice to see what ones would make the overall army list... It was great fun! My HQ's were fugen and a jetbike Seer with scouts/ jetbikes and wraithguard as troops... no prisms or falcons.

Duke

[Melissia]

I once watched a grown man grind a ten year old beginning player into the dirt. He didn't go even slightly easy. He didn't offer any pointers. He barely even acknowledged there was someone on the other side of the table, let alone a little kid who was just learning the game.

That's just cruel. Regardless of age, one should treat newbies with respect. I wouldn't vary my army list just to "go easy" on someone, but I WOULD give them pointers to help them out on how to play their own army better, and give them ideas on an overall strategy, help them with their army list, and so on.

One's army list alone does not make one a power gamer.

[Chumbalaya]

That's not powergaming, that's just being an asshat.

[Aldramelech]

Dicks will be dicks.........

[DarkLink]

Powergaming is another label people have dreamed up so they can justify brow-beating others into playing how they want to play. It's bullying, plain and simple, and it's pathetic.

I'm a powergamer. I play competitively using strong army lists and solid play. I'm also a good sport and I enjoy my hobby. These things are not mutually exclusive.

I play because I enjoy a challenging game against a strong opponent and a powerful list. Not everyone appreciates it and I can respect it, so I let live. If people want a training wheels fluff game, Apoc, or a funky scenario, it won't be my favorite thing to do but I'll take part and dumb down appropriately.

What really grinds my gears is people who think that their way is the only way and anybody who disagrees is against fun or whatever. How you play with your dollies does not reflect any inherent morality or purity, you twit. Die in a fire.

I can't agree more.

Really, powergamers are just a different segment of the community. We play to win, because we enjoy competition. Someone who doen't enjoy that will not have a good time if they play us in all likelyhood, and assume that we're just being an [expletive deleted by command of the Inquisition].

Really, aside from a few cheaters and other questionable types, the vast majority of powergamers play for the competition. We enjoy a challange. If we slaughter you because you play for the fluff or background, it's not because we're only in it to win. It is because neither of us realized that one of us is playing for the competition, while the other is playing for the story. Games are much more fun when you either play for the competition, or play for the story.

[40kGamer]

Good points. I take a different army to tournaments vs club games vs pick up games. Of course if I know someone is a competetive gamer I'll bring a tourney list to give em a run for their money. :-)

[Duke]

I really think that there are two different camps here.

1. Competitve player: Someone who likes to win, doesn't play to lose and isn't appologetic about it. These people know the rules and generally speaking enforce them. They also enjoy playing people who are like minded... Sometimes Competitve players can be hot-headed, just like anyone who is competitve in their field.

2. Powergamer: Has many of the same qualities as the Competitve player, but is also a huge (Insert explicitive). These people generally are not fun to play against, even if you are a competitve player. They are mean spirited and don't care anything about the game as a game. The guy who smashed the noob into the ground was a great example of this.

I am a competitve player, I don't build lists to have weaknesses, however I try not to go into the power gaming realm by doing the following things:

1. Empathize with your opponent: If they are having bad luck make comments like "that stinks, sometimes the dice gods just hate us... you did all you could though."

2. Give tips/ talk after: If your opponent is ok with it mutually mention what could have been done better. Talk about crazy things "...That model should be named 'Rambo,' cause he was solo fighting for 3 turns!"

These are just a few differences between a Powergamer and a competitive player, its ok to play to win... But a power gamer is a competitve gamer who is also a jerk. IMHO

Duke

[Subject Keyword]

Warhammer... Well... Warhammer 40K anyway, doesn't really have that much of a problem with powergaming, especially compared to other geeky things. I stopped playing Magic the Gathering because people who had a bunch of cash to devote towards the game just mauled other players left and right with arcbound raveger and tooth and nail decks (****s). If you do any RPing, it's a huge problem too. Not with getting your *** kicked, but with having utterly boring campaigns because everyone is playing an invincible badass rather than something with more play-depth. While there are twits who spam tons of the same basic infantry supported by the most over powered weapons in Warhammer, there is always a way to use a more exciting army to pummel them. Terminators are retardedly powerful, but Particle Whips still f-them-up.

[therealjohnny5]

Warhammer... Well... Warhammer 40K anyway, doesn't really have that much of a problem with powergaming, especially compared to other geeky things. I stopped playing Magic the Gathering because people who had a bunch of cash to devote towards the game just mauled other players left and right with arcbound raveger and tooth and nail decks (****s). If you do any RPing, it's a huge problem too. Not with getting your *** kicked, but with having utterly boring campaigns because everyone is playing an invincible badass rather than something with more play-depth. While there are twits who spam tons of the same basic infantry supported by the most over powered weapons in Warhammer, there is always a way to use a more exciting army to pummel them. Terminators are retardedly powerful, but Particle Whips still f-them-up.

yup. I'm more of a fluff player and enjoy the challenge of finding how to make an army successful in any situation, however there is a point that you can shoot yourself in the foot if you're too stuck on fluff, bc somethings don't translate to tabletop in 5th ed. Beat me fine, but don't be a douche about it or if you get beaten don't forget it's a game....

[brother drakist]

I don't mind people using the "bestest" units from their army book/codex. It's entirely within their rights to do what they want with their $$ and plastic models. Whether I think a list is boring or overpowered is my view, and I won't ever give anyone a hard time based on my views. Especially when it concerns a hobby that is supposed to be fun. When I think of "Powergaming" I think more of the "Win at all cost" players. The ones who look for loopholes in the rules to pull off some lame events in game. These guys spend more time looking for Easter eggs in the rules than having fun. Tis sad I say, tis sad.

[Kahoolin]

I think a lot of the arguments about power gaming are caused because the community isn't clear on the terms they're using. Which I suppose is what this thread is showing :)

You have most people thinking, like Duke, that there's a difference between a competitive player and a power gamer. These people don't have a problem with competitive gamers but think power gamers are kind of jerks.

Then you have fluff ****s/sore losers who complain even about competitive gamers, and negatively call them all "power gamers."

Then to confuse things even more you have competitive gamers like Chumbalaya who want to call themselves power gamers, and so take offence at anyone using the term "power gamer" negatively.

If only we all used these terms consistently, it would be much easier to talk about the whole issue.

[Duke]

I agree, I vote that we use my defenitions...lol

Duke

[MajorSoB]

People argue that I powergame all the time.

Well I do. Screw those people, I HAVE to powergame with my Sisters army in order to win. What, are you telling me I should be forced to take a unit of Repentia in order to be accepted? Or maybe some arco-flagellants and nine penitent engines?

Actually I'd love to see someone with a 9 PE list. And maybe 9 sentinels too ontop of that.



Anyway.



There are some broken items out there, that's true, but for the most part armies aren't broken, and most lists aren't powergaming. I blame the Marine codex for people whining about powergaming personally-- people see "oh, that looks cool, I wanna take it!" and then whine when they realize their cool choices are overcosted.

LOL, Sisters can try to power game but fall short. Their codex just doesnt have enough BS to get the job done. The best you can do is throw down a mech/book list with some allied support. Is that power gaming, I dont think so.

BTW I do own 6 PE, Karamozov, a squad or Arcos and a full squad of Repentia that I play from time to time. :D

[MajorSoB]

Powergaming is another label people have dreamed up so they can justify brow-beating others into playing how they want to play. It's bullying, plain and simple, and it's pathetic.

I'm a powergamer. I play competitively using strong army lists and solid play. I'm also a good sport and I enjoy my hobby. These things are not mutually exclusive.

I play because I enjoy a challenging game against a strong opponent and a powerful list. Not everyone appreciates it and I can respect it, so I let live. If people want a training wheels fluff game, Apoc, or a funky scenario, it won't be my favorite thing to do but I'll take part and dumb down appropriately.

What really grinds my gears is people who think that their way is the only way and anybody who disagrees is against fun or whatever. How you play with your dollies does not reflect any inherent morality or purity, you twit. Die in a fire.

Somehow I knew I would find you here my friend! :)

Regardless of what this poster scribbled above, power gaming is alive and well. It is the ugly part of wargaming and the reason that many people lose interest in the hobby. It is the equivalent of starting a Monopoly game already in possession of Boardwalk and Park Place, then saying " Let's play".

Power gamers are not born but created. most people start playing this hobby and want to use the army and wargear that they find cool. They play a few games, winning a few but losing more. They go home and scratch their heads trying to figure out what went wrong. They search their codex and start running the numbers weeding out the unit types that seldom gain back their investment for the addition.most uber killy undercosted units. they lose sight of why they were attracted to the game in the first place in their quest to beat down as many newbs and 13 year olds as they can. The power gamer then feels accomplished and fulfilled because they are now king in their local gaming hole. Woo-hoo sign me up!

Encouraging balance is far from bullying, just the opposite. Playing a list that you opponent struggles to compete against is not a challenge unless your opponent agrees to this. Bringing a gun to a knife fight is not fair, challenging or sporting no matter how you want to try and spin it.

Simply put, power gaming exists. there is a segment of the gaming community that will always struggle to find some sort of competitive advantage at the expense of his opponents. Play like you like but dont expect everyone to agree with you. This is a freaking game and supposed to be fun, not real war were you do whatever it takes to be the victor!

[Duke]

... not real war were you do whatever it takes to be the victor!

Even in real war there are what we call ROE (Rules of Engagement) for example: I cannot shoot Personnel with a .50 cal round... apparently it is overkill. hmmm.

I still like my defenitions, competitive doesn't = power gamer... :)

Duke

[Melissia]

It really doesn't. One can be a competitive player and still fun to play against. In fact I could say that as far as actual gaming goes, few people are more fun to play against than a competitive player whom is not a powergamer.

[Aldramelech]

Agreed. I don't want to play against pushovers, wheres the fun in that? But I don't want to play humorless, arrogant ****s either.

[Lerra]

Power-gaming to me is when a player looses sight of having a mutually enjoyable game and focuses purely on winning

Completely agreed, but I do see one thing that comes up a lot:

A friend was prepping for his very first tournament (as Tau), and challenged one of the better players in our store to get some tournament-level practice in. The (very kind-hearted) experienced fellow tried to make it a mutually enjoyable game by taking a less competitive list, and eventually making intentional play mistakes in order to make things go better for the new player.

The Tau player was rather insulted and disappointed that he didn't get the experience against an A-level player that he was hoping for.

Be careful when you step things down in order to be friendly. Make sure that is what they want.

[MajorSoB]

Even in real war there are what we call ROE (Rules of Engagement) for example: I cannot shoot Personnel with a .50 cal round... apparently it is overkill. hmmm.

I still like my defenitions, competitive doesn't = power gamer... :)

Duke

Fair enough and an anecdote to go along with the who .50 cal argument.

When my brother was training in Fort Lenardwood he was instructed that in ROE you cannot use a .50 cal weapon to target infantry. He was instructed that the target could only be military equipment so the solution that was posed was to aim for your enemy's pistol belt since that in fact was military equipment. I guess real life rules lawyers exist too huh?

[Duke]

Fair enough and an anecdote to go along with the who .50 cal argument.

When my brother was training in Fort Lenardwood he was instructed that in ROE you cannot use a .50 cal weapon to target infantry. He was instructed that the target could only be military equipment so the solution that was posed was to aim for your enemy's pistol belt since that in fact was military equipment. I guess real life rules lawyers exist too huh?

lol, that isn't the first time I heard something like that to get around ROE... Gotta love RAW.

[Crae]

Hmmm....power gaming....

I have a couple of rules that I always play by.

1: hard, but fair.
2: Have fun and encourage your opponent to have fun too.
3: Losing a well fought game, is better then winning a badly fought game.
4: Treat your opponent with respect, if he is a jerk....grind him into the dirt.
5: Don't give anything, try to play to win at all times. I would hate to win a game, knowing my opponent might have "gone easy" on me. There is no victory more hollow then that.

I play to win the fairest way I can. Even if that means that I have to tell my opponent, that he forgot to fire that battle cannon or that he forgot that his powerfist instant kills my character. On the other side I play hard and I always play to win. I expect the same from my opponent. I would hate to win a game, feeling my opponent didn't give his all. Losing games is the best way to learn. If you only win, you never learn something new.
That said, there is nothing I hate more, then a grumpy play, sore loser or spiteful winner.

The so called power builds are only powerful, if you play on your opponents terms. Two of my regular opponents played double lash/obliterator lists and they asked if they shouldn't use it, for one of our friendly games. I told them, they could bring what ever they wanted, as long as they had fun. I personally had a blast, watching them panic, when I tore the 4 princes apart in a hail of fire and then continued to blast the oblies to smithereens. I told them it was just a question of using the right tools (wow....that sounded arrogant...I am not...realy...). They both in turn vowed never to play one trick ponies again. They have since come up with a number of builds that are a lot more creative including the frustratingly irritating Bio-metal wall of rhinos and death guards and march of the defilers....I think I shot myself in the foot by suggesting the last one....

I think of myself as a "competitive" player and think that power gaming is a expression that has been overused to the point of it being used to describe anything and anyone that beats us without a challenge. The matter of the fact is, that we have a lot of "paper gamers" that in reality have no grasp of how the game works in reality.

It has become a consensus, to think that spacemarines are "overpowered, gay, GW favoured, insert random rant" army, even thou they almost never win in tournaments. The matter of the fact is, that a experienced player will tell you, that an army that is put toghter of alot of small parts, that make the sum of a greater picture, will usually win out against a small, powerfull baseline army any day. In the end, it is harder to play spacemarines against an experienced player. Both imperial guards and chaos offer more tools to do the same job for less. Guards have more options and is not hurt as much by losing a unit and chaos can get more "elite" troops, so they don't have to rely as much on elites to take and sub par troops to hold.

I will even dare to say, that the Dark eldar codex, is still a very good codex, with loads of nice options. The problem is that, as I mentioned before, we have a lot of paper gamers. Paper gaming does not take into account, how your opponent react or how dissecting you opponents army will affect the the game over 7 turns. It doesn't take into account what type of terrain you play on and so on.

Power gaming is a word that has lost its meaning over time. Same with cheesy and beardy. Originally they meant something different to what they mean now.

oye...this turned into a rant...I better stop :) Hope there is some meaning in that block of text.

P.s. To all the fantasy players that don't think there is any tactics in 40k...your soooooooo wrong.... I will even dare to say there is more then in fantasy...they are just more complicated and include a lot of real life factors and psychology. Not that fantasy does not. Fantasy just reminds me more of chess, where you use one unit to block another and vice versa, until one unit can chess mat the opponent.

[ggg]

I take the view that an a-hole is an a-hole. This can be expressed through the generally recognised traits of powergaming but it can also be expressed through being a fluff bore, GW basher, obsessive army hater and so on. I am a real nerd - like most wargamers and it is particualy easy for us nerds to fall into these traps- - power goes to our heads and we can get obsessive and we can lack self awareness (I only know this because I have been told this by the wife). In day to day life I am extremely polite but at the gaming table (and the kitchen) this sometimes slips and I cheer and wail with my successs.

The worst of all the traits of an a-hole and the least forgivable, is bad sportsmanship. A power gamer who is polite, does not cheat and has a sense of humour is not necessarily an a-hole.

I have to say however, I have met far more gamers with a great sense of humour than those without and it is a real pleasure to go to my local games nights.

There are 3 great things about a-holes who are power gamers, unlike other types of a-holes:-
1. They are easily identifiable (it takes one game at most) and they will be known to others and you don't have to play them if you don't want to.
2. You can choose to engage your own inner power gamer, take your gloves off and beat them at their own game
3. They tend to be bad loosers so revenge can be even sweeter (while you as a good sportsman don't mind so much!)

[ggg]

Hmmm....power gaming....

I have a couple of rules that I always play by.

1: hard, but fair.
2: Have fun and encourage your opponent to have fun too.
3: Losing a well fought game, is better then winning a badly fought game.
4: Treat your opponent with respect, if he is a jerk....grind him into the dirt.
5: Don't give anything, try to play to win at all times. I would hate to win a game, knowing my opponent might have "gone easy" on me. There is no victory more hollow then that.

I play to win the fairest way I can. Even if that means that I have to tell my opponent, that he forgot to fire that battle cannon or that he forgot that his powerfist instant kills my character. On the other side I play hard and I always play to win. I expect the same from my opponent. I would hate to win a game, feeling my opponent didn't give his all. Losing games is the best way to learn. If you only win, you never learn something new.
That said, there is nothing I hate more, then a grumpy play, sore loser or spiteful winner.

.

I'd vote for that as a gaming manifesto. Perhaps there should be a bill of rights or GW constitution -the right to bear bolters etc?

[Crae]

I'd vote for that as a gaming manifesto. Perhaps there should be a bill of rights or GW constitution -the right to bear bolters etc?

Hehe...thank you....thats a big compliment :)

[Xas]

I second that notion.



The best games are those that are faught hard and fair and are won or lost on a blade's edge.

Goofing off with wierd lists can be fun too but atm I dont have enough games/week to "waste" some of them to just donking around.

what I do not like are the "pseudo fluffians" who are not willling to spend the money or ivnest the time to build a good list and allways complain that their list is only for fluff and all better lists are PG lists. If you play to tell a story you should invest the time and do a narrative game and compose armies together with your oponent to fit with the background of the special scenario (and dont play the 3*3 armie book missions).


I've come to ask my oponent before the game if he wants to play a normal 40k or narrative 40k. first unleashes my full potential on armylists and tactics (and that potential is far beyond that of all the netlists your 08/15 powergamer comes up with). second one means we make up a bit of backstory, a custom way of handling bjectives ad a note or two on the forces before we do the lists. in those games I'll rather roleplay with my troops than play 100% tactically sound (like: khornate veteran guardsmen lead by an eviscerator priest charging towards the oponent over open field and assoulting all they can reach... dice gods help and 11 guardsmen kill 5 terminators O_o).

[lobster-overlord]

I see powergaming as akin to meta-gaming with RPGs. PLaying using the rules as your guide and not the story. Almost required for tournaments, powergaming has little place in what Xas just mentioned in the narrative 40K games. I always lose in tournaments because I never build powergame lists, and always go with what I want to play and have fun with. I'm working on my Vostroyan list, and using the plasma/LC build for my army fits the models/fluff, but the guidance that I'm getting here and at my local shop is the melta/AC build for squads. For me, that is swinging towards the powergame side, which for this list, I think will be a little OK, since I do want it to be competitive.

There are two guys at my local store who I would say are powergamers. Both are rules lawyers as well. Guy No. 1 interprets rules impartially, builds his armies to match his list, builds his lists to be highly competative, tries to win at all costs ("in character" that is) and exploit the other player's army on the board. Guy No. 2 interprets rules to his favor, doesn't care about wysiwyg (buys his stuff cheap on ebay and then expects you to know that all his termaguants are hormagaunts in one unit but not the other), works to win at all costs, yet won't fork out the money for a copy of the rules or even his own codex, and tries to expoit the other players lack of knowledge of rules if necessary to win. Guy no. 1 is a gentleman gamer, and guy no 2 is a dick. But both fit my definition of a powergamer. I will happily play against guy 1 any day, but I won't go near the table with guy 2 until he wysiwyg's his hive tyrant that he bought pre-built to have the two venom cannons he always carries, so I have no fear that I'll ever have to face him.