When were the Raven Guard created?

[Chris*ta]

Err, yeah, what it says in the title ;)

And I know they're First Founding. I mean when were they created in the real world.

My memories of WD up to issue 195 or so brings out no mention of them up to that point. But I've never heard any of the old-timers talkin' about how "Back in my day, if you wanted to paint your marines black, ..."

Ahh, someone finish my joke for me.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Err, yeah, what it says in the title ;)

And I know they're First Founding. I mean when were they created in the real world.



I want to say it was in the 2nd edition. It was when all of the legions were revealed, along with their Primarchs. Back then there was only the Legion name, Number, Primarch and Color. There was also a rumor that one of the Primarchs had the power of invisibility. I guessed it was Corax and got laughed at.

[DarkDesigner]

I want to say it was in the 2nd edition. It was when all of the legions were revealed, along with their Primarchs. Back then there was only the Legion name, Number, Primarch and Color. There was also a rumor that one of the Primarchs had the power of invisibility. I guessed it was Corax and got laughed at.

2nd edition is the earliest I've read and there was definitely a table at the beginning that revealed what all the legions were and their numbers, fairly sure it had Primarch info and may even have had their home planets. Unfortunately it's not to hand so I can't check.

I've always wondered whether they've ever wished that they could go back and rename any of the first founding. Personally I've always thought the Luna Wolves and the Space Wolves were a bit to similar. Not that the LW stayed that way for long.

[Chris*ta]

Does anyone know when they did the first visual representation of the Raven Guard?

I know all the other loyalist Legions were on the RTB01 box/in that spread in Rogue Trader.

Yeah, Luna Wolves has always seemed a bit odd to me too. They don't have much to do with Luna at all.

[DarkDesigner]

Does anyone know when they did the first visual representation of the Raven Guard?

I know all the other loyalist Legions were on the RTB01 box/in that spread in Rogue Trader.

Yeah, Luna Wolves has always seemed a bit odd to me too. They don't have much to do with Luna at all.

Have you read the first three Horus Heresy books? They really drive the lunar connection in those, although I don't know how much they made of it initially. They were just so similar to the Space Wolves, I mean even their armour is the same colour, just different shades. Although I guess it adds an extra layer of realism - two brothers who both want to be the Wolves and neither willing to budge...

[Chris*ta]

I haven't read any of the Horus Heresy books :o

I'm working on the theory that I don't need another 20 odd books to go on my to-read pile right now.

Though I did know someone who had a rule that he never read any series of books that wasn't finished, because he didn't want an author to die and so not get any resolution to the series :eek:

[Gotthammer]

I know all the other loyalist Legions were on the RTB01 box/in that spread in Rogue Trader.

They weren't - the Imperial Fists and Salamanders didn't come around until later. Raven Guard were probably the last loyalist legion to be depicted. Can't say for certain, but if I had to hazard a guess it would have been around the very beginning of 2nd edition.

[Chris*ta]

Oh yeah -- it's been ages since I've seen either of them in the flesh :D

Salamanders were very early though I remember their painting guide in WD 119.

[DarkDesigner]

I haven't read any of the Horus Heresy books :o

I'm working on the theory that I don't need another 20 odd books to go on my to-read pile right now.

Though I did know someone who had a rule that he never read any series of books that wasn't finished, because he didn't want an author to die and so not get any resolution to the series :eek:

Well, given that there's lots of different authors working on the Horus Heresy, it would take a pretty major incident at Black Library for death to be an issue! That and I don't personally see the Horus Heresy slowing down any time soon... I thought I'd wait til it was completed before starting it too, but they just kept coming... so I caved in.

To be honest, if you're not bothered about finding out all the backgrounds of the different Legions, you can skip a few. Personally though, I've read them all up to Fear to Tread, which I'm halfway through, and I've loved them all. But certainly if you're interested in the Raven Guard you should read Deliverance Lost, and the first three are really good introductions to the series. Everyone has their favourites of course... all I can say is whatever Legion is your favourite, I don't think you'll be disappointed (unless they don't have their own book yet, but certainly I think they all take at least a side part in one or two books each).

[Chris*ta]

I'm tempted, but really feel it's best to do them in order. Then I heard about the Limited Run White Scars one -- not that I'm particularly interested in White Scars, but I am a completist -- and BL just seem to be making it harder for me :mad:

It's really a matter of having a bunch of books already that I want to read, not to mention a bunch of other books I want to buy to read (including a couple of long series, like Flashman).

They did an Ad Mech HH book, didn't they? Mechanicum, I think? That has me tempted, gotta love any group that brings an 100 foot robot to a gun battle :D

[DarkDesigner]

I'm tempted, but really feel it's best to do them in order. Then I heard about the Limited Run White Scars one -- not that I'm particularly interested in White Scars, but I am a completist -- and BL just seem to be making it harder for me :mad:

It's really a matter of having a bunch of books already that I want to read, not to mention a bunch of other books I want to buy to read (including a couple of long series, like Flashman).

They did an Ad Mech HH book, didn't they? Mechanicum, I think? That has me tempted, gotta love any group that brings an 100 foot robot to a gun battle :D

Yeah Mechanicum was an awesome book, really enjoyed that one. I mostly read them in order, except that I just couldn't wait to read Fallen Angels after Descent of Angels though, and I read Prospero Burns straight after Thousand Sons too.

There's already been several HH books that were limited runs and I've missed them. The way I see it, if they're not going to make it common release, it's not canon. And I don't care what they say. If that's the tactic they want to use, fine. I would have loved to read Aurelian, but as I don't have a kindle I'm restricted, so I'll wait until they release it in a compilation book.

[Chris*ta]

There's already been several HH books that were limited runs and I've missed them. The way I see it, if they're not going to make it common release, it's not canon. And I don't care what they say. If that's the tactic they want to use, fine. I would have loved to read Aurelian, but as I don't have a kindle I'm restricted, so I'll wait until they release it in a compilation book.

Yeah, I am wondering if they won't quietly release them as some kind of compilation or something in a few years ...

[Psychosplodge]

Does anyone know when they did the first visual representation of the Raven Guard?

I know all the other loyalist Legions were on the RTB01 box/in that spread in Rogue Trader.

Yeah, Luna Wolves has always seemed a bit odd to me too. They don't have much to do with Luna at all.

I got 2nd edition around 95/96 and i'm sure there was a folded A3 leaflet with nothing but pics of single loyalist space marines painted in first and second founding colours, so I would imagine they were on that.

[Chris*ta]

Do you still have that Splodge?

I just checked the references on the Lexicanum article, and the earliest non-fiction references are Insignium Astartes ('02), Index Astartes ('04), C:SM 4th ed ('05) and C:SM 5th ed ('08).

And now I'm suddenly aware we're overdue for the new C:SM codex.

[Psychosplodge]

I doubt it, but they were definitely mentioned as a line of text in the Codex Imperialis and I'm pretty sure they where on the leaflet, I think it had the nine loyal legions, the black templars, crimson fists, a couple of DA successors, flesh tearers and howling griffins...

[Zeshin]

Didn't the original epic Space Marine game (1991?) have a list of all 18 legions with a painting guide? Trying to remember that far back hurts my brain but I thought there was a full list.

[Chris*ta]

Didn't the original epic Space Marine game (1991?) have a list of all 18 legions with a painting guide? Trying to remember that far back hurts my brain but I thought there was a full list.

Space Marine is the one that was released shortly after (and compatible with) Adeptus Titanicus, right?

I was reading WD religiously around then, and they never showed the 18 legions in WD.

[Zeshin]

I thought it came before Titanicus, but yes they were two halves of what became epic. I remember a painting guide for the legions with the primarchs named but I can't for the life of me remember if it was a complete list. I know the game was full of HH stories and was came with marines versus marines.

[magickbk]

The Codex Imperialis included with 2nd Edition was the first time I remember seeing the grid list of the legions, primarchs, and homeworlds, although it could have been around before that. I may still have the leaflet that came with the 2nd starter. I'll have to check when I get home this evening.

[Gotthammer]

Space Marine just had colours for twelve legions (http://boardgamegeek.com/image/376216/space-marine?size=large) - six on each side.

[Chris*ta]

For a while weren't the Lamenters (I think) an HH era Legion too? I have this vague recollection of seeing a Space Marine army for them in WD ...

[Gotthammer]

2nd edition Space Marine was set in 'modern' times, so could you be thinking of that?

[Zeshin]

Thank you Gotthammer. That answers my question and helps me kickstart my memory. I wish I still had any of my old epic stuff (had 1st and 2nd edition) but alas I was a fickle kid.

[Chris*ta]

2nd edition Space Marine was set in 'modern' times, so could you be thinking of that?

I don't think so. I remember reading somewhere recently about it, which is what spurred my memory of the Lamenters in WD. I can't remember where I was reading it though :(

[Psychosplodge]

There's an article on the "cursed founding" where they're mentioned, and didn't they mistakenly side with the astral claws briefly in a local conflict between five chapters? Thought to be a blood angels successor but no red thirst?

[magickbk]

The chart of First Founding Legions is on p16 of Codex Imperialis from 2nd Edition. The painting guide leaflet that came in the box has 12 chapters on the back: Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Dark Angels, White Scars, Silver Skulls, Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Legion of the Damned, Crimson Fists, Blood Drinkers, Eagle Warriors, and Mentor Legion, with Blood Angels being the focus of the guide itself.