A few little bits from A Friend

[Renegade]

Speaking to a friend of mine I managed to get a few little (ok, tiny) bits of information.

First off, a lot of rumours are very wide of the mark or wrong. Harry is the closest to being right but still way off the mark.

No one likes Black Templars... this was given no reference as to its actual meaning.

That is it, there is no more.

[ElectricPaladin]

No one likes Black Templars... this was given no reference as to its actual meaning.


Maybe the Black Templars are getting folded back into the Space Marines codex? I'd feel bad for my friends who play Black Templars, but I can't argue that it wouldn't be nice to have fewer super-special Space Marine flavors.

[Chris*ta]

Maybe the Black Templars are getting folded back into the Space Marines codex? I'd feel bad for my friends who play Black Templars, but I can't argue that it wouldn't be nice to have fewer super-special Space Marine flavors.

The problem is that of all the SMs, the Black Templars are the least like Codex SMs, excepting Grey Knights (not marines) and maybe Space Wolves (probably really about the same level of difference as BTs, really).

So, if any chapters were to be put back into the main SM Codex, it should really be Dark Angels, and maybe Blood Angels. But they'll never get moved back.

[ElectricPaladin]

The problem is that of all the SMs, the Black Templars are the least like Codex SMs, excepting Grey Knights (not marines) and maybe Space Wolves (probably really about the same level of difference as BTs, really).

So, if any chapters were to be put back into the main SM Codex, it should really be Dark Angels, and maybe Blood Angels. But they'll never get moved back.

I'm a Blood Angels player, and I approve this message. I agree that the Blood Angels could easily have been handled with the vanilla marines book, some special rules in that book, and maybe a pdf supporting release that included some special Blood Angels units.

Ah, codex bloat...

Anyway, I don't know much about the Black Templars. If you say it's not possible to fold them back into the 'nilla codex, then you're probably right.

[Archon]

BT were not even legion! This fals-leading lapdogs shall cuddle into the shadow of their father-legion. I appreciate if they were forced back into the generic. May a trait or two ;)

[Denzark]

Speaking to a friend of mine I managed to get a few little (ok, tiny) bits of information.

First off, a lot of rumours are very wide of the mark or wrong. Harry is the closest to being right but still way off the mark.

No one likes Black Templars... this was given no reference as to its actual meaning.

That is it, there is no more.

A few little bits of information about what? There are an awful lot of rumours out there - or do you mean every rumour thread of recent days?

[Chris*ta]

They really wouldn't work in the main SM codex. They don't use Devastator or Scout squads at all, and, instead of tactical squads, they have a unit that can be equipped with either bolt pistol and CCW or bolt gun, that is up to 20 men strong, and can be up to half made up of Initiates (i.e. "Scouts").

It doesn't matter that they weren't First-Founding their realisation on the table is possibly the most different to Codex.

[eldargal]

Well Harry defers to Hastings and Hastings does have an excellent track record too so I'd question that bit. The rest is rather pointless.

[bfmusashi]

Well, they don't use scouts and devastators right now. That can change and it wouldn't be a big deal. I remember when Phantom Titans had several crew members and the Primarchs wrecked the Imperium every Tuesday. That doesn't happen any more :( Btw, anyone know if the old Warlock Titan has Apoc rules? I keep eyeballing the old Armorcast ones... they dare me to revisit the Eldar of my youth.

[daboarder]

I'm a Blood Angels player, and I approve this message. I agree that the Blood Angels could easily have been handled with the vanilla marines book, some special rules in that book, and maybe a pdf supporting release that included some special Blood Angels units.

Ah, codex bloat...

Anyway, I don't know much about the Black Templars. If you say it's not possible to fold them back into the 'nilla codex, then you're probably right.

They couldn't they really couldn't,

And the Chaos codex is a perfect example of WHY, that thing is barely able to handle the 4 gods and undivided never mind renegades or each of the legions.

[Denzark]

Well, they don't use scouts and devastators right now. That can change and it wouldn't be a big deal. I remember when Phantom Titans had several crew members and the Primarchs wrecked the Imperium every Tuesday. That doesn't happen any more :( Btw, anyone know if the old Warlock Titan has Apoc rules? I keep eyeballing the old Armorcast ones... they dare me to revisit the Eldar of my youth.

Yes -- google the old BoLS play aid 'Lords of Battle' - well balanced.

[Anggul]

The problem is that of all the SMs, the Black Templars are the least like Codex SMs, excepting Grey Knights (not marines) and maybe Space Wolves (probably really about the same level of difference as BTs, really).

So, if any chapters were to be put back into the main SM Codex, it should really be Dark Angels, and maybe Blood Angels. But they'll never get moved back.

Adding one new HQ and being able to buy Scouts in your Tactical Squads classes as 'most different'?

Neither Dark Angels or Black Templars need their own codex. All Templars need is their Characters, Emperor's Champions (which would give them their Chapter Tactics) and be allowed to buy Scouts for their Tactical Squads.

All Dark Angels need is their characters, Beacons on their Bikes and Deathwing Assault.

That said, all Blood Angels need is their Characters, FOC changes, Death Company, Furiosos and Sanguinary Priests. The Sanguinary Guard were a five-minute idea to justify them having their own codex by adding another unique unit and saying: 'Oh yeah they need their own, look at all of the unique units they have!'

Wolves just need Characters, a stat changes on their Blood Claws and their variants which could be done in one little box in the corner, and wolves.


None of them deserve their own codex, they should all just be in a 'Unique Chapters' Codex designed to be used with Codex: Space Marines like the 3rd ed Craftworld Eldar codex.

[gcsmith]

Adding one new HQ and being able to buy Scouts in your Tactical Squads classes as 'most different'?

Neither Dark Angels or Black Templars need their own codex. All Templars need is their Characters, Emperor's Champions (which would give them their Chapter Tactics) and be allowed to buy Scouts for their Tactical Squads.

All Dark Angels need is their characters, Beacons on their Bikes and Deathwing Assault.

That said, all Blood Angels need is their Characters, FOC changes, Death Company, Furiosos and Sanguinary Priests. The Sanguinary Guard were a five-minute idea to justify them having their own codex by adding another unique unit and saying: 'Oh yeah they need their own, look at all of the unique units they have!'

Wolves just need Characters, a stat changes on their Blood Claws and their variants which could be done in one little box in the corner, and wolves.


None of them deserve their own codex, they should all just be in a 'Unique Chapters' Codex designed to be used with Codex: Space Marines like the 3rd ed Craftworld Eldar codex.

You realize you couldn't just write can buy scouts in tactical squads. And they aren't scouts, they don't have the same options of scouts. Also BT have a choice of 'chapter tactics'.

They also don't use certain units and should have their own unique units.

All your saying is piss of all the BT players defeating the point of updating them. Lets update an army and in the process get rid of all the people who currently play that army.

[Renegade]

Well Harry defers to Hastings and Hastings does have an excellent track record too so I'd question that bit. The rest is rather pointless.

I am just passing on the little that a friend of mine got when a friend of his visited. It is likely that he pushed mainly on the BT side of things. For those that have BT armies that last part is unlikely to pointless, as it is some kind of pointer.

It was said that GW doesn't know what to do with BT, which could be why 'no one likes' them. It could be a fluff direction, they are the only ones to have problems with the SOB on the allies chart.

Just because it is not pointy eared folk in space, does mean it is not worth more consideration. :p

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

All your saying is piss of all the BT players defeating the point of updating them. Lets update an army and in the process get rid of all the people who currently play that army.One way of handling it; rumor has it in new SM 'dexs, "Chapter Tactics" will be handled by purchasable banners. Black Templars can use that as their new form of Vows, will gain access to Crusader Squads, the Emperor's Champion and the two Special Character, have Vanguard Veterans moved to Elites (Sword Brethren), lose access to Devastators/Whirlwinds and replace Combat Tactics with the Crusader USR.

A faithful depiction that can be presented in a single page of rules, 3-4 fluff pages focused on the units and replace some of the droll, repetitive Ultramarines fluff throughout the codex with Black Templars bolter-porn. It'd certainly make the Space Marines codex more interesting to read :P

[Chris*ta]

One way of handling it; rumor has it in new SM 'dexs, "Chapter Tactics" will be handled by purchasable banners.

You're thinking of rumours around THE new SM Codex, i.e. Dark Angels. It's rumoured they'll bring back the standard bearer guy from Codex:Angels of Death, who had a choice of 3 different banners.

And no character will cut access to two Heavy Support choices.

[DWest]

Here's a thought: What about using the new Warlords rules to handle multiple Chapters in one book? Call it "Codex: Divergent Chapters" and put in Blood Angels, Black Templars, Dark Angels and (I'm just making this up to have an extra example) Blood Ravens. Whichever HQ you chose as your Warlord would then determine what special properties each unit receives, for example a Tactical Squad would have a line of stamps at the top of the options list;
BA: This unit gains Red Thirst. Add to the list of Sergeant weapons- Infernus Pistol X pts, Glaive Encarmine X pts.
BT: This unit gains Crusader. You may purchase 0-10 Neophytes for X pts each . . .
and so on and so forth. Likewise, Signature Units (such as Death Company) default to 0-1 and are moved to Elites if they're not associated with your Warlord. Then, when you get to the big-name special characters (Dante, Emperor's Champ, Azrael, etc.) they would each say "This character must be purchased as your Warlord" to keep things in line. Finally, from a fluff standpoint, I could easily see a justification for putting these disparate units together as something like "In M41.blahblahblah the Lords of Terra found a dead fly in their tea and so decreed that any Chapter not towing the line hard enough to make the Ultramarines look sloppy would be considered for Inquisitional sanction, and so these Chapters began to work more in concert in the hopes of not having Nemesis Force Halberds inserted into their proscribed regions."

Ordinarily, I wouldn't expect GW to sell 1 Codex when they could sell 3-4, but then I didn't expect to see errata on the main rulebook in the same calendar year that it went on sale, and I fully expected the CSM Heldrake to cost $90+ just because they know people would still shell out, so here's hoping?

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I think BT's problem is more on the visual side - they share similar visual niches as both the dark angels and grey knights. The knight theme is taken by GK and the gothic/robed look daken by DA. BT are kind of inbetween the two.

They could give them scouts on horses, but then everyone would moan they are "stupid" like they moan about Dreadknights and thunderwolf cavalry - but like that kind of idea or not, it's the sort of thing that GW -would- likely do. They could give them some kind of siege engine (guess they could make it a duel kit as well), perhaps focus on the "horde" aspect (so a dedicated neophyte kit would work there), maybe give them mobs of zealous human crusaders that join them on their crusades (allthough you could say that is something the Sisters should have instead). You could give them some focus on Chaplains, but again that's something that looks more likely to end up in a DA kit.

[Chris*ta]

You're largely right about the appearance thing, Asymm (do you mind if I call you Asymm?). I remember the designers' article for Dark Angels in WD, where they go: Dark Angels have censers, Black Templars have lanterns, and Dark Angels have robes, whereas Black Templars have tabards. They're totally different. I don't know how you could get confused :D

There is also the problem that they have largely given a lot of the BTs design space (in rules terms) to other chapters.


maybe give them mobs of zealous human crusaders that join them on their crusades (allthough you could say that is something the Sisters should have instead).

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2540245a_60010199006_DVCultistsUnit1_445x319.jpg

;)

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

haha, I see what you did there - but that does go to further my point that thinking up unique unit's for the BT is actually pretty damn difficult. I mean, I could think up new units for BA, GK, DA, Vanilla and give you detailed breakdowns of hypothetical plastic kit releases - but with BT it's a lot harder - and that will likely force them to come up with more what people consider "silly" unit ideas. That's really the problem with so many marine armies - it's a double edged sword. They have committed to doing codex books for marine armies, but to justify that they need to think up brand new plastic kits each time, and that will get harder to do as time goes on - so they will likely think up more and more sillier stuff. Personally it doesnt bother me like it does many others, but it is kinda amusing.

[Chris*ta]

I think the BTs would do with an expanded Sword Brethren unit (with a plastic kit), a plastic kit for Termies (with a sword + shield option, and something else), a new vehicle (maybe a mid sized carrier/short ranged SPG, really not sure) and ... something else. That's the hard bit.

As for rules, they should be large units, acting crazy and duelling ... which is sadly Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Chaos Marines, respectively :(

[Renegade]

I think the BTs would do with an expanded Sword Brethren unit (with a plastic kit), a plastic kit for Termies (with a sword + shield option, and something else), a new vehicle (maybe a mid sized carrier/short ranged SPG, really not sure) and ... something else. That's the hard bit.

As for rules, they should be large units, acting crazy and duelling ... which is sadly Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Chaos Marines, respectively :(

BT's seems to be very nonconformist going by the present background. On this is a very old rumour that was floating on warseer which basically ran that BT would have almost all options at every level, barring Terminators. While that would be fluffy, it would not happen, at least I doubt it would ever happen.

To make things simple, it may be in GW's interest to put Graham back on codex duty for this one, as he is the man responsible for the last one and so the fluff and rules and fan base.

[gcsmith]

I think expand on the fact that they do things like siege assaults better than other armies. Maybe give them a bike unit designed for penetrating armored lines.

I have some Ideas for a new BT dex, as well as fluff advancement.

[Chris*ta]

I know that Imperial Fists are meant to be good at sieges (even if GW has never worked out what that's supposed to mean) but I didn't realise the BTs had the same reputation.

[gcsmith]

I know that Imperial Fists are meant to be good at sieges (even if GW has never worked out what that's supposed to mean) but I didn't realise the BTs had the same reputation.

Seeing as the original BT were all members of the IF, they would of been good at Sieges. And that's how the Crusader was discovered by the BT, to break a siege.

Personally I would like to see things like assault Rhinos and maybe a lightly armoured larger capacity transport.

As I said I think there are a few ideas that could work for BT that give them enough unique units.

[bfmusashi]

Huh, I thought the Crusader was made and sanctified instead of discovered. I understand every army is somebody's favorite but what's the big deal about losing their Codex? It's not like the guys who painted up their marines as Legion of the Damned or Grey Knights* who later got told they were wrong. You have an army that is relatively new, has not had work put into it for years, and whose design is too similar to other armies in the same line. Work would have to be done to make them different and I don't think anyone at GW cares enough to champion that effort. It's a pity though, Adamant Will seemed tailor made for them.

*Legion of the Damned started as a paint scheme in 2nd for people that wanted to show off. The 2nd ed. fluff for Grey Knights merely stated they were unique in every member of their first company was a psyker. Nothing stopping you form painting up your little monopose marines and finding out later they weren't legit.

[robrodgers46]

Well, DA are going to get their own book, like it or not, because they are in the Starter Set.

To me, the strongest hint about BT is how they are handled in the fluff and hobby sections of the rulebook. Where SW, BT, and BA all get their own sections, BT are treated the same as Salamanders, White Scars, and Imperial Fists. That had to have been intentional, right?

[Chris*ta]

Well, DA are going to get their own book, like it or not, because they are in the Starter Set.

To me, the strongest hint about BT is how they are handled in the fluff and hobby sections of the rulebook. Where SW, BT, and BA all get their own sections, BT are treated the same as Salamanders, White Scars, and Imperial Fists. That had to have been intentional, right?

Ehh, they grouped the Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters in the 5th ed BRB, and they've still got separate codexes ... well, the Grey Knights do at least :p

But there are several Special Rules that sound like they're written for BTs: Adamantium Will, Crusader (duh) and Zealot.

Even if it's just Crusader, it would be the only Chapter that gets a Special Rule (in the BDAB) all to itself.

[daKrovar]

The one thing that the BT have over all other SM chapters is that they are the closest to the original SM legions in their following of the Emperor's original thought behind the great crusade. The BTs do not have a homeworld, instead they are a fleet based chapter. They are not about defending territory, they are about taking the fight to the enemy. The BTs have been on an ongoing crusade for the last 10,000 yrs and will continue to do so.
The new allies concept may be at the heart of the trouble for BTs. Plainly put BTs hate everyone and therefore don't fit into the allied matrix well. That could be one of the balancing tools for the new codex revise the allies matrix to restrict which races/armies the BTs can ally with. Also the deny the witch rule is a 6+ while one of the vows gives BTs a 5+ chance at that (with the bonus of 1 roll of 5+ and that turn no pyschic powers can affect the BTs).
The codex could expand upon the Chaplains as they don't have any psykers. If GW wanted to they could borrow from the WP of WHFB and grant the Chaplains prayers to reflect their religious nature and unyielding faith. Also the new codex could keep the Terminator assault squad. That would be something no one else has. It would definetly be a unique unit and allow for some awesome new sprues that could be great for all SM characters as for as modifications go. As for the mounted knights, I had built a couple of such BT bikers using knight sprues from Warhammer Empire kits, did not like the look of them. But it is another option.
A little bit of thought and yes you could add the couple of new units that show up in each new codex. As for fluff man could I spin enough that would fill 10 pages at least and still not scratch the surface and also not infringe upon any of the stories already out there.

[Zahariel]

The codex could expand upon the Chaplains as they don't have any psykers. If GW wanted to they could borrow from the WP of WHFB and grant the Chaplains prayers to reflect their religious nature and unyielding faith.

Lol what? They Sisters of Battle now? ha ha

[gcsmith]

Lol what? They Sisters of Battle now? ha ha

No, but they are zealous warriors.


Still I reckon it would be better to base them around Knights etc, and have like acts of heroism. Things that Certain units can perform in a challenge or in combat with a walker/MC

[Learn2Eel]

I hope Sisters of Battle get their own fully-fledged codex again. Just because one of the big authors is a misogynous poop-head doesn't mean the game should suffer for it.
I mean come on. They burn stuff like no-one else does, and they have an immortal angel as a HQ choice. The design of a lot of their models is quite good, but it seems so wrong for GW to essentially abandon an entire army.

[Zahariel]

No, but they are zealous warriors.


Still I reckon it would be better to base them around Knights etc, and have like acts of heroism. Things that Certain units can perform in a challenge or in combat with a walker/MC

Like saga's from Space Wolves? I'm not having a go or anything, just pointing out it's hard to make the BT's distinct enough when the theme of the army has been appropriated by others already (SW-large squads etc, CC-BA etc) no idea where they could go with it that is different from more current codecii. I have a feeling they might get put back into Vanilla dex, though how they sort THAT out is anyones guess!

@Learn2Eel - me and many many others wholeheartedly agree with you! :)

[Chris*ta]

The new allies concept may be at the heart of the trouble for BTs. Plainly put BTs hate everyone and therefore don't fit into the allied matrix well. That could be one of the balancing tools for the new codex revise the allies matrix to restrict which races/armies the BTs can ally with.

What, now they're encroaching on the Tyranids design space? :D


Also the deny the witch rule is a 6+ while one of the vows gives BTs a 5+ chance at that (with the bonus of 1 roll of 5+ and that turn no pyschic powers can affect the BTs).
The rule Adamantium Will gives a +1 to Deny the Witch rolls. Coincidence? You decide.


I hope Sisters of Battle get their own fully-fledged codex again. Just because one of the big authors is a misogynous poop-head doesn't mean the game should suffer for it.
I mean come on. They burn stuff like no-one else does, and they have an immortal angel as a HQ choice. The design of a lot of their models is quite good, but it seems so wrong for GW to essentially abandon an entire army.

I have this vague recollection of a rumour that they're still trying to make the Sisters work as plastic models ...

[Mat Schwarz]

As an ardent BT collector (and have been since the 3rd ed.) I think our days would appear to be numbered!!!! Having seen the new stuff for the Dark Angels it would seem that they have taken over the role of the Knightly Order of space marines. With not even a wiff of any firm rumours of models or codex it would appear to be time for the Templars to hang up our tabards!!! Pity.

[Zeshin]

I think there is still room for Arthurian Knights and Crusaders as distinct entities. There is some overlap, but they're space marines so there is already some overlap.

[Nabterayl]

As an ardent BT collector (and have been since the 3rd ed.) I think our days would appear to be numbered!!!! Having seen the new stuff for the Dark Angels it would seem that they have taken over the role of the Knightly Order of space marines. With not even a wiff of any firm rumours of models or codex it would appear to be time for the Templars to hang up our tabards!!! Pity.
I disagree. Dark Angels and Black Tenplars have "overlapped" for a long time in the sense that they are both caricatures of the Catholic Church, but the Black Templar have always been the Church at War, whereas the Dark Angels were (and still are, in the new codex) the Church as Villain in a Dan Brown Novel.