Do Space Marines Die of Old Age?

[DrLove42]

Just a random thought that crossed my mind.

I know marines live far beyond normal human years (with 200 years being "young") and some
marines, particularly in dreadnoughtsare very long (isn't Bjorn a Heresy Veteran?).

But assuming they survive every battlefield encounter, and never get Dreadnought interred do
they eventually succumb to age?

And by the same logic, as humans age we get weaker. Is this the case for superhumans as well?

[Wolfshade]

I think in the HH book the Outcast dead, they make refence to the fact that Astartes are immortal, or at least in most practical ways so. It was Babu was saying as he was a prototype who surived the cull...

I think the oldest survivng non-Dreadnought is Dante who has to be at least 1,100 years as that is how long he has surved as Chapter Master, so to work his way from Scout, to full Marine, to Veteran to 1st Company Captain to Chapter Master, who knows how many years another 200+?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

It's kinda inconsistent, the Horus Heresy note about potential immortality, but the Blood Angels are noted to be unusually long-lived, which would imply that Astartes are not. I hear there was a Heresy-era Salamander that survived until 40k? Then again, in the HH series, Iacton Quarze was hella old and looked like crap and was less physically capable.

It could be that Heresy-era Astartes were immortal, but the geneseed degraded over 10,000 years, so new Astartes are mortal.

[Wolfshade]

It does seem strange to refer to someone as unusally long lived when you don't die, unless it is referring to the fact that BAs are the best marines around and they live longer because they survive more encounters

[eldargal]

It could be that during the Great Crusade they were so full of themselves (especially Dark Angels, hurhur) they believed themselves to be immortal but the harsh reality of the 40k universe showed otherwise.

[Wolfshade]

If the space pansies (eldar) live for eons, the emporah could use his gentecfhnomancy to achieve the same!

[eldargal]

Try and fail, just like the webway experiment.:p

[Psychosplodge]

Just a random thought that crossed my mind.

I know marines live far beyond normal human years (with 200 years being "young") and some
marines, particularly in dreadnoughtsare very long (isn't Bjorn a Heresy Veteran?).

But assuming they survive every battlefield encounter, and never get Dreadnought interred do
they eventually succumb to age?

And by the same logic, as humans age we get weaker. Is this the case for superhumans as well?


Wasn't Bjorn the only one of Russ' personal guard he didn't take with him when he disappeared?
And the first wolf lord?

I certainly remember their being an ancient salamander with a horde of armour, kind of Indiana Jones and the last crusade style,
And I'm sure theres a Dark Angel that drifted in a sus-an trance for 10k since the heresy till he ended up in the eye.

[Wolfshade]

Try and fail, just like the webway experiment.:p

yeah well, erm, that's what he said! ;)

[Grailkeeper]

No. In one of the (stultifyingly dull) Salamanders books, there is a salamander who has lived from the heresy to 40k- OUTSIDE of the warp or a dreadnaught. I think it's the first book Salamander. He has been seperated from the chapter and is on a planet which is attacked by Orks, Tyranids and Iron Warriors. He is effectively in susann suspended animation, but I could be wrong on that. HE can't really move or do much so the salamanders mercy kill him and harvest his gene seed.


I believe there are also some Chaos marines who haven't gone into the warp and are veterans of the Emperors palace.

[spaceman91]

i once asked this question to a background writer. his take is that there has not been a marine thats lived long enough to find out if he die of old age. and yes there was one in salamander.

[Mr.Pickelz]

In the Prospero Burns HH book, the Rune Priest that gives that talks to the main character acts like a pessemisstic old man, and is indeed weaker than his fellow space wolves, he's also one of the original few (of the Space Wolf Legion) created by the Emperor himself. He has aging issues, but is still an able bodied space marine. This shows that there is some Age realted deteriation, but due to the genetic/biological manipulation of Space Marines, the effects are suppressed and procrastinated to a point where their war-torn duties would strip them of life before nature would.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

So; in HH, someone comments that marines are probably immortal.

In HH, Iacton Qurze/The Rune Priest are significantly older and slower.

In 40k, Bjorn is slower than normal dreadnoughts (I3).

In Salamander, the Heresy marine is so slow he cannot move.
---
It looks like marines are near-immortal, but become less and less capable as time goes on - and the more a marine slows down, the more likely they die on the battlefield.

Perhaps Blood Angels are "long-lived" because they don't slow down as quickly, so they're less likely to get killed on the battlefield.

[Chris*ta]

I seem to have a recollection that certain non-combat positions within a Chapter are filled by "retired" marines, so to speak. Not sure of the source, though. Maybe the old Codex Ultramarines? Anyone have a better memory of this?

[Nabterayl]

I seem to have a recollection that certain non-combat positions within a Chapter are filled by "retired" marines, so to speak. Not sure of the source, though. Maybe the old Codex Ultramarines? Anyone have a better memory of this?

Although the Codex describes a number of ranks and responsibilities within the headquarters staff, only a very few of these officers actually accompany the Chapter to war. Many are non-combatants of advanced years whose roles are to find and train recruits or administrate the Chapter, other titles are borne by the Chapter's Captains.
"Advanced years" seems to vary by chapter, though, or perhaps it is a euphemism for "too injured to fight." Everyone agrees that Dante is the oldest living marine, at about 1,100 years old, and he certainly isn't a "non-combatant." Neither is Logan Grimnar, in his 700s, or Marneus Calgar, in his 400s.

[Wildeybeast]

"Advanced years" seems to vary by chapter, though, or perhaps it is a euphemism for "too injured to fight." Everyone agrees that Dante is the oldest living marine, at about 1,100 years old, and he certainly isn't a "non-combatant." Neither is Logan Grimnar, in his 700s, or Marneus Calgar, in his 400s.

It's theoretically possible for them to be functionally immortal and stop the ageing process, assuming they can find a way to completely stop free radicals from decaying the DNA. Given the genetic manipulation that they have undergone, it's conceivable they have. However, there is a problem. Space Marines clearly age, this is obvious from fluff, artwork and models of clearly different ages (think scouts and veteran sergeants) and any amount of ageing proves they have not stopped the DNA decay completely. So, from a purely scientific view, they have obviously vastly slowed down the rate of DNA decay (and therefore ageing), but have not stopped it completely. Assuming they don't get killed, they will succumb to old age. Though that is proper science which probably doesn't belong in a sci-fi universe.

[fuzzbuket]

nope. and none are alive to test as the older marines are normally vets which deal with bigger and tougher enemies.

i remember that there is fluff about a loyalist EC dread that locked itself in a vault under istvaan, and is still loyalist, its just in stasis.
and rememeber that ALL CSM are +10,000 years old. (par that EC character who keeps getting new bodies)

[Chris*ta]

Though that is proper science which probably doesn't belong in a sci-fi universe.

damn! You got in yourself before I could be a smartarse :mad:

[apahllo]

Luther is still in the rock and he didn't even get the geneseed. 10000 years is an unimaginable amount of time... I believe they are immortal in the sense of being able to sustain life.

[eldargal]

I think the important question isn't 'are they immortal' but 'do they obsess over the weather and talk about their health troubles incessently when they reach old age'.

[Chris*ta]

I think the important question isn't 'are they immortal' but 'do they obsess over the weather and talk about their health troubles incessently when they reach old age'.

I'd like to think they tell "Back in my day ..." stories.

"Back in my day, if you wanted to assault out of a rhino, you assaulted out of a rhino.

[Psychosplodge]

Eeee by-gum lad Back in my day we fought for 28 hours a day, 8 days a week, and drop pods went up hill both ways...

[Chris*ta]

"Back in my day, if Dante wanted to strike on his initiative, he struck on his initiative.

[Psychosplodge]

Yeah? well back in my day if you got hit by a demolisher cannon your displacer field would save you

[Chris*ta]

Yeah? well back in my day if you got hit by a demolisher cannon your displacer field would save you

Yeah, well back in my day, your displacer field actually displaced you!

[Psychosplodge]

Well yeah d6 inches in a random direction, and would automatically detect solid objects but you're f*cked if someone threw a vortex grenade at you

Now back in my day lascannon did d20?(maybe 12) wounds...

[Chris*ta]

"Back in my day, if Dante wanted to strike on his initiative, he struck on his initiative.

Back in my day, even Marneus Calgar struck on his initiative! And he looked like this:

http://www.solegends.com/citcat88/4104spacemarines-01.jpg

[Chris*ta]

Back in my day, even Marneus Calgar struck on his initiative! And he looked like this:

http://www.solegends.com/citcat88/4104spacemarines-01.jpg

Woo! First time I've managed to post a picture here properly! Yay for me!

[Psychosplodge]

Yeah i'm not quite That old...well not played that long anyway :p


http://youtu.be/IeXMKygwSco

[Wildeybeast]

damn! You got in yourself before I could be a smartarse :mad:

I figured it would be coming from someone.

[Chris*ta]

but you're f*cked if someone threw a vortex grenade at you

Some things never change, eh? :)


Now back in my day lascannon did d20?(maybe 12) wounds...[/I]

Well, I remember when they nerfed our multimeltas by cutting them from 4d6 wounds to 2d12 ... and we didn't get owt to make up for it, neither.

Oh dear, I seem to be channeling one of the Four Yorkshiremen now :eek:

It's a bit of a worry, considering the closest I've been to Yorkshire is Brisbane.

[Kyban]

"Back in my day the Eldar still had an empire!"

Actually does anyone know if space marines were created before or after the fall? I think they were pretty close to each other.

[Chris*ta]

"Back in my day the Eldar still had an empire!"

Actually does anyone know if space marines were created before or after the fall? I think they were pretty close to each other.

I have this feeling that the Great Crusade never encountered Imperial Eldar ... but I'm sure someone else has a much better idea than me ;)

Also, I don't think the Eldar had an empire in the Rogue Trader book ... I can't remember the background there too well though.

[Psychosplodge]

Some things never change, eh? :)



Well, I remember when they nerfed our multimeltas by cutting them from 4d6 wounds to 2d12 ... and we didn't get owt to make up for it, neither.

Oh dear, I seem to be channeling one of the Four Yorkshiremen now :eek:

It's a bit of a worry, considering the closest I've been to Yorkshire is Brisbane.

Lol,I am one... why I couldn't resist :p


"Back in my day the Eldar still had an empire!"

Actually does anyone know if space marines were created before or after the fall? I think they were pretty close to each other.

After as the occulus terriblis existed during the crusade, and the Eldar empire was where it is now...
Also NObody's that old...

[Chris*ta]

Also NObody's that old...

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2250348a_99810101036_BjornFellhandedCFC01_445x319 .jpg
Your argument is invalid.

[Psychosplodge]

But I juts established the fall happened pre-great crusade?

The HH books where they're on cadia and the eye of terror dominates the sky?

[Chris*ta]

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2250348a_99810101036_BjornFellhandedCFC01_445x319 .jpg
Your argument is invalid.

Or, y'know:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/e/eb/Emperor_Imperial_Palace_Rogue_Trader.jpg

[Kyban]

After as the occulus terriblis existed during the crusade, and the Eldar empire was where it is now...
Also NObody's that old...

As far as I can tell it sounds like the primarchs were created around the time of the Fall, so they might be that old but the Emperor is at least that old. I think the actual legions were created after the fall, though I can't find anything definite.

[Psychosplodge]

**** yeah the Emperor, but are we sure he's not dead yet?

[Chris*ta]

He's clearly alive, just look at that photo ... he's in fine health!

Also, is it just me, or do his guards totally look like Dark Eldar?

[Kyban]

I just found a bit more that makes it sound like the crusade couldn't start until the warp storms following the Fall calmed down so it seems like the legions were created just after the Fall.

[Psychosplodge]

He's clearly alive, just look at that photo ... he's in fine health!

Also, is it just me, or do his guards totally look like Dark Eldar?

Tis but a flesh wound.

Nah, they're just custodes got a few of them laying around somewhere...

Any,my hairs dried so I'm off the pub, have fun children...

[Chris*ta]

Tis but a flesh wound.

Nah, they're just custodes got a few of them laying around somewhere...


He's clearly alive, just look at that photo ... he's in fine health!

Also, is it just me, or do his guards totally look like Dark Eldar?

That's why I said look like :|

[Alan Connell]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ludoldus#.UFzkK1EUBrk Possibility that this Black Templar is rumoured to be older then Dante, though its tenuous and only a small entry in Lexicanum.

[Nabterayl]

The Fall was among the things that let the Great Crusade happen. All the extra-reliable interstellar travel that occurred during the Crusade was possible because Slaanesh's birth sucked up so much warp energy that the warp was unusually calm for a couple centuries afterward. As the eldar codex says,


Ten thousand years before the Fall, the Warp was riven with storm and tempest. This made it almost impossible for Human spacecraft to travel between the stars. With the birth of the Great Enemy the Warp was temporarily calmed, its rage all but spent. A new equilibrium was reached as Slaanesh joined the ranks of the Chaos gods. With the Warp storms around ancient Terra dispersed, Human worlds throughout the galaxy were brought into contact once more. During the Great Crusade that followed, the Emperor brought Humanity together and forged the Imperium of Man. In this way the death of the Eldar heralded the birth of the Imperium, and Mankind inherited the stars.

[Honda]

Interview with a Hero

by Jeraldo Revara (posthumous)


JR: Today we are visiting a very special place, "The Emperors Paradise",
a recently opened retirement home for space marines who have stepped
down from their long years of service with the Emperor, and now get to enjoy
their golden years in complete luxury, a just and fitting reward for these
hardy warriors. Sitting here with me is the renowned Chapter Master of
the Mighty Ultramarines during M335 - M337, Gaius Canis Maximus.

< interviewer turns to a large figure, slowly rocking back and forth
in an ornately carved chair of dark wood>

SM: <silence>

JR: Ah, hello there Mr. Gaius, how are you feeling today?

SM: <silence>

JR: Umm...

SM2: <off camera> He can't hear you.

JR: I'm sorry what did you say?

SM2: <wheelchair rolls into view> I said, he can't hear you. He had
his auditory nerves ripped out after a bad exchange with some of those
panty waist Noise Marines. Said they desecrated all forms of sound, so
he had his ears ripped out. He can't feel anything either. Said the
sensations he experienced during the fight were blasphemous. So he had
the techies rip those nerves out as well. Now he just sits there and
rocks back and forth, if you know what I mean.

He's fine now. Of course, every now and then he sort of flies into a
rage, but it's been awhile since that's happened. I imagine the sensory
deprivation is what triggers it. The medicine these hospital pukes give
him doesn't do anything, that's for sure. Just watch his face. If it
starts to twitch on the right side, then he's getting ready to blow.

Did I mention that he made them rip his eyes out too?

JR: Ah, Ok...and who are you?

SM2: You can call me Mr. Deathwing, but don't bother asking me what my
secret is, cause I won't tell you...are you one of those nosey reporters?

JR: Uh, right. Ok, we...ah, would you mind if I ask you a couple of questions
as long as I don't ask about your...uh, secret?

SM2: I suppose that would be Ok, but if you try to trick me I'll put my
powerfist on and rip your lips off, know what I mean.

JR: Uh, yes...you space marines sure seem to be fond of ripping things.

SM2: You betcha! It's the only way to be sure. That's what I told that
big green airbag Ghazkhull, the smart aleck. I said, "It's you or me
green bean!" Then I ripped his head off. I ripped his lips off too, just
to be sure, you never can tell with those friggin orks.

JR: Sooo, Mr. Deathwing how long were you in the Emperors service?

SM2: Oh, who bloody knows. We space marines don't waste our breath keeping
track of time. All we know is that there's someplace where we're needed so
off we go...and if we're lucky, we get to rip peoples heads off...well,
other things heads off too. If we're really lucky, the things have more
than one head! That means bonus heads, if you know what I mean.

JR: Ok, I see...<pause>, Um there don't seem to be a lot of you around?

SM2: Well, of course not. Have you ever seen the kinds of things the
Emperor asks us to do? Bloody he<bleep>, it's a wonder we all
don't die off after a few fights...uh, not that I mind, mind you, I
was made to rip heads off, in fact I find it quite relaxing if you
know what I mean.

JR: Hmm, well you've been very helpful today, but I think I'll see if I can
talk to a few more of the veterans who are staying here. <gets up to leave>

SM2: Won't do you any good, there's nobody else here but him and me. But you
might as well move along anyway, my viddie show is on in a moment. I just
love the "Fear Quotient". Tonight some wimp will be eating raw gaunt
guts and I don't want to miss it. I hate bugs, if you know what I mean.

JR: Well, thank you for your time, Mr. Deathwing, I look forward to...<ripping
sound>.

SM2: Nosey reporter, thought you were going to get away with my secret, were
you?

[Chris*ta]

The awful secret of the Dark Angels ... they actually quite like watching reality TV! :eek:

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

i once asked this question to a background writer. his take is that there has not been a marine that's lived long enough to find out if he die of old age. and yes there was one in salamander.
I think that if giving a life with out war or danger that many would live for ever. It is their job that limits the life span of the Astartes.
I think the answer to this question will be proven by Garviel Loken. I think he is still alive in 40k "Present day". I think he has lived the 10k years the hard way, with out the benefit of a stasis field, long term warp exposure or dreadnoughtifaction.

There are a couple of hints that this will be Loken's fate.

1. In False Gods, Loken was asked the same question that you asked the background writer, by Mersadie Oliton. They both gave the same answer.
‘You’re staring,’ said Loken, without turning.

Momentarily flustered, she said, ‘Sorry, I didn’t mean—’

He laughed. ‘I’m teasing. I don’t mind. If I am to be remembered, I’d like it to be when I was at my peak rather than as a toothless old man drooling into my gruel.’

‘I didn’t realise Astartes aged,’ she replied, regaining her composure.

Loken shrugged, picking up a carved vambrace and a polishing cloth. ‘I don’t know if we do either. None of us has ever lived long enough to find out.’

Her sense for things unsaid told her that she could use this angle in a chapter of her remembrances, if he would talk more on the subject. The melancholy of the immortal, or the paradox of an ageless being caught in the flux of constantly changing times – struggling flies in the clotting amber of history.

She realised she was getting ahead of herself and asked, ‘Does that bother you, not getting old? Is there some part of you that wants to?’

‘Why would I want to get old?’ asked Loken, opening his tin of lapping powder and applying it to the vambrace, its new colour, a pale, greenish hued metallic still unfamiliar to her. ‘Do you?’

‘No,’ she admitted, unconsciously reaching up to touch the smooth black skin of her hairless augmetic scalp. ‘No, I don’t. To be honest, it scares me. Does it scare you?’

‘No. I’ve told you, I’m not built to feel like that. I am powerful now, strong. Why would I want to change that?’

‘I don’t know. I thought that if you aged maybe you’d be able to, you know, retire one day. Once the Crusade is over I mean.’

‘Over?’

‘Yes, once the fighting is done and the Emperor’s realm is restored.’

Loken didn’t answer immediately, instead continuing to polish his armour. She was about to ask the question again when he said, ‘I don’t know that it ever will be over, Mersadie. Since I joined the Mournival, I’ve spoken to a number of people who seem to think we’ll never finish the Great Unification. Or if we do, that it won’t last.’

I feel the point of putting that scene in the book is to give a anchor for the question to be answered on the future.


2. In Horus Rising when Loken Joins the Mournivall he has a prophetic vision during the ceremony. He sees a time 10k years in the future after trying to see his own death and failing.

'Lost in glory.’ Aximand and Abaddon said as one voice. 'Mourned by the Mournival. Only in death does duty end.’

A bond that only death will break. Loken thought about Abaddon's words. Death was the single expectation of each and every Astartes. Violent death. It was not an if, it was a when. In the service of the Imperium, each of them would eventually sacrifice his life. They were phlegmatic about it. It would happen, it was that simple. One day, tomorrow, next year. It would happen.

There was an irony, of course. To all intents and purposes, and by every measurement known to the gene-scientists and gerontologists, the Astartes, like the primarchs, were immortals. Age would not wither them,

nor bring them down. They would live forever... five thousand years, ten thousand, beyond even that into some unimaginable millennium. Except for the scythe of war.

Immortal, but not invulnerable. Immortality was a by-product of their Astartes strengths. Yes, they might live forever, but they would never get the chance. Immortality was a by-product of their Astartes strengths, but those strengths had been gene-built for combat. They had been born immortal only to die in war. That was the way of it. Brief, bright lives. Like Hastur Sejanus, the warrior Loken was replacing. Only the beloved Emperor, who had left the warring behind, would truly live forever.

Loken tried to imagine the future, but the image would not form. Death would wipe them all from history. Not even the great First Captain Ezekyle Abaddon would survive forever. There would be a time when Abaddon no longer waged bloody war across the territories of humanity.

Loken sighed. That would be a sad day indeed. Men would cry out for Abaddon's return, but he would never come.

He tried to picture the manner of his own death. Fabled, imaginary combats flashed through his mind. He imagined himself at the Emperor's side, fighting some great, last stand against an unknown foe. Pri-march Horus would be there, of course. He had to be. It wouldn't be the same without him. Loken would battle, and die, and perhaps even Horus would die, to save the Emperor at the last.

Glory. Glory, like he'd never known. Such an hour would become so ingrained in the minds of men that it would be the cornerstone of all that came after. A great battle, upon which human culture would be based.

Then, briefly, he imagined another death. Alone, far away from his comrades and his Legion, dying from cruel wounds on some nameless rock, his passing as memorable as smoke.

Loken swallowed hard. Either way, his service was to the Emperor, and his service would be true to the end.

3. In Garro: Legio of One, Loken calls himself the Undying amongst the dead. It is clear that Loken has tried and failed to kill himself on a couple occasions. When Verran sees Lokene fight he observes that he has reached a place no other Astates has.
" Every Adeptus Astartes no matter what his parent Legion might be, no matter what Primarch he called his sire, fought to live and to win. This beast did no such thing. He fought like a mad man with no though for survival. Every thing about him was pure fury. He fought as if he craved the embrace of death but in his eyes there was something... something lost."

4. There is a scene in False Gods (pg 299) were Qruze and Loken are talking. Iacton is telling him about how it was was back in the day and how it was not like it used to be.
"FOR ONCE LOKEN was inclined to agree with Iacton Qruze when he said, ‘Not like it used to be, boy. Not like it used to be.’

They stood on the strategium deck, looking out over the ghostly glow of Davin as it hung in space like a faded jewel. ‘I remember the first time we came here, seems like yesterday.’

‘More like a lifetime,’ said Loken.

‘Nonsense, young man,’ said Qruze. ‘When you’ve been around as long as I have you learn a thing or two. Live to my age and we’ll see how you perceive the passage of years.’

Loken sighed, not in the mood for another of Qruze’s rambling, faintly patronising stories of ‘the good old days’.

‘Yes, Iacton, we’ll see.’

I think that up until the HH series that there has been no need to answer this question. Now is the time. If they are going to give us the answer why not Loken?

[apahllo]

Dante and the "black Templar" are 1k-2k years old... Whoop baaaaa, big deal. The average Csm is 10k+ and Luther (without the geneseed) is still alive... This leads me to conclude that spacemarines have no expectation date and their life isn't based on time but combat and so on...

Is Omegon/alpharius still alive? How about Russ, or other "lost" primarches. Guliman/el jonson are """""""stile alive""""" How old are they? Or rather where are they... This, to me, is the beauty of 40k. It's an evolving game not some stagnant excuse for a game(cod, ff, me, all RPGs). stories in most realmsof fantasy/scyfi are too obsessed with endings, while 40k remains undecided. This is why I keep playing and am excited for the coming editions and/or branches that stem from a story that is unfinished and GROWING...

[Chris*ta]

Chaos Marines are an entirely different kettle of fish, though. Between the fact that time moves at a different rate in The Eye, and they've been mutated by Chaos, and they live on "Daemon worlds" most of the time, their life expectancy has only so much to do with the fact that they're Astartes.

I also suspect that there may be a difference between Astartes who were created around 30k and those from around 40k, by which time the geneseed has degraded significantly -- consider the number of organs that most chapters no longer have.

I still think that the comment about non-combat positions filled by Marines of advanced years shows that, even if they can't die of old age (though I think they can), they do become old and physically weaker. Consider also the fact that veterans' faces in the art look older.

[eldargal]

Isn't Luthor in stasis? Guilliman certainly is, time isn't flowing for him at all, or very slowly if you believe the self-healing claims.

[apahllo]

Chaos Marines are an entirely different kettle of fish, though. Between the fact that time moves at a different rate in The Eye, and they've been mutated by Chaos, and they live on "Daemon worlds" most of the time, their life expectancy has only so much to do with the fact that they're Astartes.

I also suspect that there may be a difference between Astartes who were created around 30k and those from around 40k, by which time the geneseed has degraded significantly -- consider the number of organs that most chapters no longer have.

I still think that the comment about non-combat positions filled by Marines of advanced years shows that, even if they can't die of old age (though I think they can), they do become old and physically weaker. Consider also the fact that veterans' faces in the art look older.
I guess the chaos have a little help and the warp does warp time.

^eldargirl, I don't think Luther is in stasis, just jail. Still rambling about the forgiveness el Jonson will bring when he wakes up.

[gcsmith]

According to the Emperors Children HH book, can't remember it's name. The marines of that era were immortal. I guess the horus heresy and the years after lost a lot of the pure tech so they don't have the full pure transformation to marine.

[Chris*ta]

According to the Emperors Children HH book, can't remember it's name. The marines of that era were immortal. I guess the horus heresy and the years after lost a lot of the pure tech so they don't have the full pure transformation to marine.

Do you have a quote there? It'd be good to have some concrete info.

[Daemonette666]

In one of the non horus heresy novels, An iron warriors or salamanders one I think, there is a isolated iron warriors outpost and a space marine chapter possibly salamanders or one of the other loyalist legions from Istvan V go there to find the wreckage of an old cruiser that crash landed there. Orks, well hundreds of thousands of orks attack from small moon looking space hulks, and in the end they find a 10,000 year old space marine who is almost rusted into his chair with weak limbs, and on the verge of death after guarding the armour stored in the cruiser. His progenoid glands were useless and could not be used, and they mercifully killed him after determining that they could not get him out without killing him, or something like that.

It has been a while since I read the novel, so details are sketchy. But i do remember he was on the verge of death, and looked like a weakened space marine with grey hair, and age lines.

[Hunter]

Chaos Marines are an entirely different kettle of fish, though. Between the fact that time moves at a different rate in The Eye, and they've been mutated by Chaos, and they live on "Daemon worlds" most of the time, their life expectancy has only so much to do with the fact that they're Astartes.

I also suspect that there may be a difference between Astartes who were created around 30k and those from around 40k, by which time the geneseed has degraded significantly -- consider the number of organs that most chapters no longer have.

I still think that the comment about non-combat positions filled by Marines of advanced years shows that, even if they can't die of old age (though I think they can), they do become old and physically weaker. Consider also the fact that veterans' faces in the art look older.

that could be a combination of injury sustained over the millennium "put your dang helmet back on " and psychological trauma "what has been see ,cannot be unseen"

[Hunter]

could be from the lack of sustenance and hygiene that he was in such poor condiction when he was found.

[dark messenger]

Well, I'm not sure about these super long lived marines you guys speak of... I've always thought Dante was the oldest canon marine?
As for the immortality question - yes.
Marines are functionally immortal, they don't die merely continue on, although their effectiveness in combat seems to drop past their 4th or 5th century nowadays except in rare cases it seems.
The original founding marines were probably as the Emperor intended - immortal, unendingly tough and the perfect shock troops. 10,000 years on I reckon the Mechs struggle to keep the process going as well as He did.

I do however think without all that training and the genhancing chemicals swimming in their blood, they'd probably only live maybe twice as long as a human. Their size, metabolism and enhanced physiques would shorten their otherwise augmented lifespan.

[Absolon]

I guess the chaos have a little help and the warp does warp time.

^eldargirl, I don't think Luther is in stasis, just jail. Still rambling about the forgiveness el Jonson will bring when he wakes up.

Luther is in stasis. It is tradition that the SGM brings him out after he takes office and tries to get Luther to repent. Other times Luther is brought out and used as a kind of oracle

[Alpha Omega Protocol]

Aren't you guys forgetting the Fallen? Those dark angels that betrayed the lion? They are still alive or the Dark Angels chapter would've stop going after them already...

[Nabterayl]

Are they? Not even the original Dark Angels were sure how many Fallen "escaped" into the Warp. Ten thousand years later they are still hunting an unknown number of "traitors" whose identities were never certain to begin with, and they justify this by pointing to the prisoners who confess, at point of torture, to being Fallen.

I'm convinced :P

But seriously, who knows where the Fallen, assuming any are left, spend their time?

[Alpha Omega Protocol]

well you have a point. However in the second omnibus of space wolves there is a fallen dark angel that is hunted. Anyone know approximate time frame of that story in the warhammer 40k timeline? Book: SONS OF FENRIS is the book in the second omnibus. So there is proof. ^.^

[Dlatrex]

Well, I'm not sure about these super long lived marines you guys speak of... I've always thought Dante was the oldest canon marine?
As for the immortality question - yes.
Marines are functionally immortal, they don't die merely continue on, although their effectiveness in combat seems to drop past their 4th or 5th century nowadays except in rare cases it seems.
The original founding marines were probably as the Emperor intended - immortal, unendingly tough and the perfect shock troops. 10,000 years on I reckon the Mechs struggle to keep the process going as well as He did.

This is kind of tangential to the discussion at hand, but it is worth mentioning that even when their body appears to be 'failing' they can still be apparently immortal due to the Sus-an Membrane

Initially implanted above the brain, this membrane eventually merges with the recipient's entire brain. Ineffective without follow-up chemical therapy and training, but with sufficient training a Space Marine can use this implant to enter a state of suspended animation, consciously or as an automatic reaction to extreme trauma, keeping the Marine alive for years, even if he has suffered otherwise mortal wounds. Only the appropriate chemical therapy or auto-suggestion can revive a Marine from this state. The longest recorded period spent in suspended animation was undertaken by Brother Silas Err of the Dark Angels, who was revived after 567 years.

[Cpt Codpiece]

Aren't you guys forgetting the Fallen? Those dark angels that betrayed the lion? They are still alive or the Dark Angels chapter would've stop going after them already...

the fallen may not all be 10k+ years old though, they were thrown, through time and space. so some of them the heresy was happening yesterday.
where as others appeared only a short time from the heresy.
again my theory of t'chulka the warp engine at play, throwing the 'loyal' (to the lion) troops away from caliban and its traitors to save the lion from hurting (t'chulka is shown to have an emotional bond/crush on the lion). thus the reason for the interrogators and the 'hunt' for the fallen and covering up the tracks.

but that all has nothing to do with the functional immortality as explained in 1ksons and i think galaxy in flames (though it may have been fulgrim...... yeah i think it was, as its a marine telling the tale to the remembrancer which states marines have not died of old age, only war).

i really dont see how this debate is still going, it has been stated that in multiple books of the HH series that marines do not die of old age. and in current codex canon dante and cassius are the oldest non-dreadnaught loyalist marines alive.

[Wolfshade]

the fallen may not all be 10k+ years old though, they were thrown, through time and space. so some of them the heresy was happening yesterday.
Damn beat me to it!

[pgarfunkle]

I've always thought of the Marines as exceptionally long lived rather than immortal. To a normal human they would appear immortal as they would not age significantly over a humans lifespan.

During the Heresy they referred to themselves as immortal as they were all only a few hundred years old at a maximum and generally died from combat before they noticed any aging. Having said that however the Heresy books do mention some of the oldest Marines who as they have aged have slowed and become slightly less formidable compared to their younger "brothers".

Therefore as the marines become older and less formidable they are more likely to be killed in combat reinforcing the idea that they don't die of old age.

I reconcile this with the Blood Angels being the oldest lived marines through the idea that they do not age as fast as other marines and so maintain their vitality longer enabling them to function at full strength and survive for longer. (Of course the longest lived idea did originally come from the vampire in space idea but has become less applicable as all marines came to be view as immortal as the fluff/story/etc was fleshed out).