Portrayal of the Alpha Legion

[Jmaximum]

This is really just a curiosity on my part: but why are all the Alpha Legion miniatures all mutated and screwed up by the warp, when in all the books the Alpha Legion has never fled into the Eye?

[Psychosplodge]

Good question

[Blackmonkey0]

I think the point is that no-one knows where they are, have been or will be.

It's perfectly logical that when the Alpha legion do take to the field in open combat (rather than working by subtefuge) that they spill from the warp.

[DrLove42]

I also assume they travel in starships through the warp, as the Imperium do

[JamesP]

It could also be because siding with Chaos, even if you don't mean to, can have a corrupting effect. If Alpha Legionnaires swore to Chaos, perhaps to fit in with their truly rebellious Traitor Legions, then, even if they didn't really mean it, they may have been corrupted. Given that Chaos has a habit of being able to corrupt anything but a Grey Knight, it's possible that the Alpha Legion went from pretending to side with Chaos to actually siding with Chaos and without realising it.

Also, given the amount of renegade marines over the years, even if the bulk of the 'modern day' Alpha Legion is only pretending to side with Chaos, there will be members of that Legion who have gone over to Chaos due to personal weakness or ambition.

Either option would lead to warping of armour and mutation.

Of course, maybe the Alpha Legion are deliberately warping their bodies and armour to keep up with the pretence of being on the side of Chaos. The ultimate in deep cover.

[Psychosplodge]

And maybe they keep a detachment under one primach that fully embraces it and one that is totally unsullied under the other...

[JamesP]

And maybe they keep a detachment under one primach that fully embraces it and one that is totally unsullied under the other...

If so, because they've been doing it for so long and are so secretive in their nature, not even the Alpha Legion itself knows which detachment is which...

[Chris*ta]

My recollection of Alpha Legion minis is that they're not usually mutated, (i.e. tentacles, extra heads, what have you) though their armour is Chaos-y (i.e. spikes, the weird shoulderpad edges, assymetry).

So, they're not that affected by the warp, I guess is my point.

[Wildeybeast]

Of course, maybe the Alpha Legion are deliberately warping their bodies and armour to keep up with the pretence of being on the side of Chaos. The ultimate in deep cover.

Makes sense. The HH has them altering their bodies to go deep cover, maybe they have mutated themselves rather than being mutated by Chaos.

[Chris*ta]

Makes sense. The HH has them altering their bodies to go deep cover, maybe they have mutated themselves rather than being mutated by Chaos.

You know what the difference is between being mutated by Chaos and mutating yourself?

The Emperor sure doesn't care!

[Psychosplodge]

If so, because they've been doing it for so long and are so secretive in their nature, not even the Alpha Legion itself knows which detachment is which...

It was just a thought what with their twin aspect, secrecy, and loyal traitors etc...

[Chris*ta]

If so, because they've been doing it for so long and are so secretive in their nature, not even the Alpha Legion itself knows which detachment is which...

Just like the Dark Angels :D

[JamesP]

It was just a thought what with their twin aspect, secrecy, and loyal traitors etc...

I think it's an excellent idea and totally in keeping with what we know (or think we know - damn you Abnett!) about them. I just wondered whether their liking for secrets and deception would come back to haunt them, so they themselves don't know whose side their on anymore.

On a less serious note, that could lead to a 40k version of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpZ8EkK3eWY). :)

[JamesP]

Just like the Dark Angels :D

Wasn't it Astellan in Angels of Darkness who accused Jonson and his Dark Angels of being so in love with secrecy and conspiracy that it had tainted them?

[Jmaximum]

And maybe they keep a detachment under one primach that fully embraces it and one that is totally unsullied under the other...

O_o my brain asploded

[droozy]

I've read about the alpha legion in the horus heresy books and I loved their duplicitous nature. I then picked up the dawn of war omnibus and they are very different. The chaos lord bale is cursing his sorcerer saying how the alpha legion didn't earn their fierce reputation by scheming and lurking in the shadows... I'm like, hold on, that's exactly how you earned your reputation! Did something happen to the overall character of the legion our is it just the author taking to much artistic license/messing up the fluff?

[Psychosplodge]

I'd say it's the game (and it's books) that's wrong.

[Wolfshade]

I'd agree.
The only thing that makes the Alpha Legion is that they end up with infiltrate as an upgrade, which is more to do with game balance than anything else and given the prevelance of detecting stealth units it is hardly the best option.
But the books were shoe-horned to follow the game, so in those books they end up reflecting how they are played and the simple flat evil baddy is much easier to portray than the more complicated hidden agendas behind the Alpha Legion's actions. So I would stick to how you perceive them in the Horus Heresey Books.

[Jmaximum]

Agreed. the book (which Im reading right now, actually) is obviously game-centric, NOT 40K universe fluff-centric.

[Denzark]

The whole 'we will protect the Empire by siding with Chaos' is a bit dodgy to me. Do they not think after 10000 years the empire might do better with a full extra legion of troops on its side? What if the mutation of the primarchs only effected one of Alpharius/Omegon - and the whole 'fight from the inside' represents that conflict? I know one gets killed, but with all the doubles who knows it might have been a legion toilet cleaner third class in that armour.

[Jmaximum]

Ok, I JUST read the part in in the Dawn Of War where the conversation goes down that Alpharius joined Horus because he was entranced by Horus's strength. I was SCREAMING at my book at that point about how wrong they were.
Also, according to the book, apparently the Blood Ravens have the most advanced means of creating Space Marines, as Gabriel Angelos was a frikkin Imperial Guardsman when he was chosen.

Really disliking this book right now.....

[Wolfshade]

The selection criteria for space marines varies from chapter to chapter. The general theme seems to show that only those utmost specimens are selected picked through some form of ritual challenge, while not impossible most successful candidates are younger rather than older.

[Nabterayl]

That said, yes. The book is ... lacking in editorial oversight, let us say.

[Chris*ta]

Also, according to the book, apparently the Blood Ravens have the most advanced means of creating Space Marines, as Gabriel Angelos was a frikkin Imperial Guardsman when he was chosen.

It doesn't say how young the recruitment for the IG regiment in question was, though, does it? On Cadia, (I think) people are put in the Whiteshields around 10 to 12.

[Jmaximum]

Good point, but it feels like the general portrayal of Guardsman has always been old, grizzled veterans, with a smattering of young 20-something guys around. Almost everything I have read about Space Marine selection is the youths (or yoots, depending on if you're a Joe Pesci fan) or chosen either pre-adolescence or very early adolescence.

Nabterayl had it right: the book is lacking signification editorial oversight.

[Anggul]

1. It's Dawn of War, of course it doesn't make sense or follow the established fluff. Never take DoW as canon.

2. It's written by C. S. Goto. He is by far the worst writer 40k has ever had the misfortune of experiencing. Seriously, he's infamous.

[Nabterayl]

Ironically, I think the writing team at Relic has a really strong grasp on space marine psychology.

[Psychosplodge]

Ironically, I think the writing team at Relic has a really strong grasp on space marine psychology.

What?
Shoot it.
or shoot it and then hit it with a sword.

:D

[Nabterayl]

In a sense, yes, but I don't think they employ that character trait willy nilly. All of Dawn of War I is the Alpha Legion, Biel-Tan, and the daemon in the Maledictum. I did think it was very space marine for Angelos to not care. When the daemon gloats that Angelos' blind drive to smash things has actually released it from its prison, I thought his answer was great: essentially, "Okay then, I'll smash you too."

I like how Titus relates to the Codex not as a manual but as Scripture. I like how Angelos' response to the Inquisition's demands is, "Make me." The writers at Relic get space marines, I think. That doesn't mean they're in charge of all aspects of space marine portrayal, though. If the gameplay team needs 100 space marines to die while killing 1,000 orks, well, so be it.

[Chris*ta]

Good point, but it feels like the general portrayal of Guardsman has always been old, grizzled veterans, with a smattering of young 20-something guys around. Almost everything I have read about Space Marine selection is the youths (or yoots, depending on if you're a Joe Pesci fan) or chosen either pre-adolescence or very early adolescence.

Nabterayl had it right: the book is lacking signification editorial oversight.

I think you should look at the concept of veteran soldiers, especially in both of the World Wars (which is the closest comparison we have to the amount of warfare in 40k). The veterans weren't actually noticeably older than the new guys, it's just that they had served at the front a while longer. And as for age, the majority of battlefield officers (lieutenants and some captains) were in their early 20's. The enlisted men were typically 18 to 20 (and often younger).

It's only when a nation isn't at war that you get an average age in the infantry much above 20.

That said, I'm sure Nabterayl is right too. Dawn of War tie-in by CS Goto FTW. If by win you mean not having anything to do with actual fluff.

[Jmaximum]

I think you should look at the concept of veteran soldiers, especially in both of the World Wars (which is the closest comparison we have to the amount of warfare in 40k). The veterans weren't actually noticeably older than the new guys, it's just that they had served at the front a while longer. And as for age, the majority of battlefield officers (lieutenants and some captains) were in their early 20's. The enlisted men were typically 18 to 20 (and often younger).

It's only when a nation isn't at war that you get an average age in the infantry much above 20.

That said, I'm sure Nabterayl is right too. Dawn of War tie-in by CS Goto FTW. If by win you mean not having anything to do with actual fluff.



LOL. I'm really just venting.
It does seem DoW was written from the 40K universe and accepted fluff.