Chaos Space Marine FACT Roundup

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

So here is a rundown list of everything that is CONFIRMED for Codex: Chaos Space Marines
This way, you don't have to trawl through about 7 threads to piece together all the information

Codex Basics
The Codex itself
- Written by Phil Kelly
- 104 pages
- Fantasy format, hardback, full colour
- Cover is the artwork for Blood Gorgons by Henry Zou (a good book but I'm a little mystified by why they are using Black Library art?)
- All for the lump sum of - £30
- You can buy Psychic Cards, there are twelve in the set - £4.50

Models
- Dark Apostle (Finecast) - £11
- Sorceror (Finecast) - £11
- Warpsmith (Finecast) - £18
- Aspiring Champion (Plastic Clampack) - £12?
- Raptors/Warp Talons (Multipart Plastic Boxset) - £20.50
- Mutilators (Multipart Finecast Boxset) - £31.50
- Helldrake (Multipart Plastic Boxset) - £45
- Forgefiend/Maulerfiend (Multipart Plastic Boxset) - £40
- Chaos Space Marine Battleforce - £70
Contains:
- 10 Chaos Space Marines
- 5 Possessed Chaos Space Marines
- 1 Chaos Rhino
- 3 Chaos Bikes

CSM Rules
UPDATE - From the pages of the White Dwarf:
Chaos Boon table (D66 pick 2d6, one is your tens and the other is your ones)
These all have names but I will leave you to find them out yourselves
You have to win a challenge to roll on this table
11-16 - Nothing
21-22 - Replace model with Chaos Spawn
23 - +1 Attack
24 - Eternal Warrior
25 - +1 Strength
26 - +1 BS
31 - +1 Initiative
32 - Return to full wounds, if unwounded gain +1 Wound
33 - +1 Toughness
34 - Shrouded
35 - Armour Save improves by 1
36 - Melee weapon has Fleshbane
41 - Passing a Deny the Witch roll makes enemy Psyker take a Str 6 AP 2 hit
42 - Re-roll failed armour saves
43 - Melee attacks are Poisoned
44 - Crusader
45 - Hammer of Wrath
46 - Icy Aura (enemy models in base contact take a Str 4 AP 5 hit at Initiative Step 1)
51 - Adamantium Will
52 - A ranged weapon has +1 Strength
53 - Hatred (Everything!)
54 - Shred
55 - Melee attacks have instant death
56 - +1 WS
61 - Stubborn
62 - Fleet
63 - Feel No Pain
64 - Roll another d3+1 on this table (re-rolling Spawnhood and Apotheosis)
65-66 - Replace model with Daemon Prince

Warlord Traits
1 - Friendly units within 12" of Warlord have Preferred Enemy (Space Marines)
2 - Melee weapons belonging to the Warlord and his unit have Soulblaze
3 - D3 infantry units may infiltrate (could this be new Creed???)
4 - Warlord and unit have hatred (everything!)
5 - Warlord causes Fear
6 - Warlord may re-roll Chaos Boons

There are 4 Psychic Powers for each of the 3 Gods (1 Primaris and 3 per roll)
All of which are REALLY useful

Marks of Chaos
Mark of Khorne - RAGE AND COUNTER ATTACK
Mark of Tzeentch - +1 to Invulnerable Save
Mark of Nurgle - +1 Toughness
Mark of Slaanesh - +1 Initiative

Lots of cool stuff

Chaos Characters MUST always accept and issue challenges where possible. (take Aspiring Champions EVERYWHERE, then your Chaos Lord has freedom to move about and mash up infantry with ALL THE ATTACKS)

That thing about Typhus and Plague Zombies?? Totally true. :D

Cult Marines are all finecast bits upgrades. (apart from those who are already released)

Cultists ARE in the book (20 Cultists, 2 Flamers are 100 points!!!)

The Chaos Marines lose their Battle Report, so all of those neckbeards who say that new armies always win are WRONG.

[Malcontent]

That battleforce can't be right, you lose 5 regular CSM and 8 Khorne Berserkers for 3 bikes. Sounds a bit fishy.
Edit: Found your source, and you're right, but that is some major BS right there.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

See here:

2832

[Mr Mystery]

Hurrah for tomorrow being payday!!!!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Update being written in OP

[eldargal]

Yay for Phil Kelly, gives him time to write eldar next.:p


(a good book but I'm a little mystified by why they are using Black Library art?)
For lulz.

[Denzark]

What is this 'Euros' thing? What about God's honest Pound Sterling, the currency of gentlemen since guineas became obsolete?

[eldargal]

I miss guineas.:( Sadly the leaked WDs all seem to have been continental printings, hence the euros thing.

[Deadlift]

I miss guineas.:( Sadly the leaked WDs all seem to have been continental printings, hence the euros thing.

Your not that old:p

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I've updated the OP, just doing the prices.

[DrLove42]

Replace with Demon Prince LOL

I take it these are the "if your character kills another one in a challenge" things that were rumoured

The Warlord traits being unique for an army are interesting, wasn't expecting that

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Yep. Just updated the Boon. You have to win a challenge.

[DrLove42]

Is it any character or is it on Independant Characters. And does it have to be against another IC or just character?

I'd imagine if its just character, the idea of a Champion in a unit turning into a demon prince for killing a marine sergeant would be funny :P

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

ANY character. :D

[DrLove42]

Had a sudden image of an army thats done well in challenges running around with 10 demon princes.

I want the cultist leader in my squad to win challenges just so eventually he turns into a huge awesome dude

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

It depends if they have the special rule to roll on that table.

[Psychosplodge]

the chaos marines lose their battle report, so all of those neckbeards who say that new armies always win are wrong.

spoilers ffs

[DrLove42]

They do lose battle reps occasionally, i remember at least 2 in my memory, one of which was the first one i ever read

I believe they play out a few battles and then publish the one thats most epic and demonstrates stuff, even if they lose

Disapointed to read that cultists are more expensive than expected.

[Anggul]

They do lose battle reps occasionally, i remember at least 2 in my memory, one of which was the first one i ever read

I believe they play out a few battles and then publish the one thats most epic and demonstrates stuff, even if they lose

Disapointed to read that cultists are more expensive than expected.

Indeed, I believe the Tyranids lost theirs.

No surprises there. :P


Sounds good, although I think they should have just gone with a 2D6 table like Warriors of Chaos, that lot seems a bit too much, and I don't think having the same chance between +1 strength and becoming a Daemon Prince is very fair. The Warriors of Chaos one has 12 as the best, but generally the table is quite balanced. This doesn't seem quite so comparatively balanced. :P

Still, hopefully Mr. Kelly is delivering a winner, and it will be more Dark Eldar success story, less Space Wolves nightmare.

[xilton]

Well like most flavors of the month, some things made by GW are just dumb. Anyhow, welcome the new OP army until the next one. I just love how they balance things.

[archimbald]

£75 for a worse battleforce. no thanks

[RGilbert26]

Ive just started a pre-heresy Iron Warriors army usng FW armour Marks. By the time i get the army to 1500pts all the new Chaos stuff should be out so i can start a brand new codex Iron Warriors army :p

[Big_jon]

Can't wait, I am looking forward to running my two Forge world Dreads and Hell brute with a WarpSmith behind them, it will be pretty cool. I am just wondering who I should put in a squad with him?

[corydorasj]

pricewise... nice to see GW fleecing us some more.

[gcsmith]

GW gave me hope with the amazingly priced starter set for what you got. Then they charge more for the battle force which contains less stuff...

[Kozemp]

- Fantasy format, hardback, full colour

I have two words for this, and those words are **** and YES.

[Mr Mystery]

This news just in..... Luxury product costs money!

More as we get it.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

It looks like a good Codex, but I'm not even slightly tempted.

[apahllo]

It looks like a good Codex, but I'm not even slightly tempted.

I'll buy the codex when it goes digital, which i love the way they are set up in iBooks. Eventually I'll only need my iPad and mini rule book :)

My two cents on chaos.. I was expecting more about the hell brute. (guess its just a dread and I shouldn't have gotten my hopes up)
And I'm really hoping there is big difference from normal marines.. Like tons of crazy...
I'm surprised there isn't

[Kyban]

My two cents on chaos.. I was expecting more about the hell brute. (guess its just a dread and I shouldn't have gotten my hopes up)
And I'm really hoping there is big difference from normal marines.. Like tons of crazy...
I'm surprised there isn't

I wouldn't give up hope just yet, I don't think we've seen enough of the rules to make a judgement. If you're basing the hellbrute stats on the ones in the starter I assumed that they were just temporary to provide a simplified starting experience but it's unlikely that they will be massively different from normal marines as they are just an offshoot of them. I feel like their stats will be different enough when we finally get our hands on the codex, certainly more than just a non-codex loyalist chapter.

[Big_jon]

I wouldn't give up hope just yet, I don't think we've seen enough of the rules to make a judgement. If you're basing the hellbrute stats on the ones in the starter I assumed that they were just temporary to provide a simplified starting experience but it's unlikely that they will be massively different from normal marines as they are just an offshoot of them. I feel like their stats will be different enough when we finally get our hands on the codex, certainly more than just a non-codex loyalist chapter.

"Hellbrute: Can swap multimelta for additional powerfist, TLHB, TLLC, Reaper Autocannon, or Plasma Cannon. Itty bitty text is really hard to read.
Marks seem to be 2 points per model, icons have fixed cost."

On dreadnoughts "They get a crazed marker if they take a glancing or pen hit, and roll on the chart at the start of the movement phase if it has a marker next to it.
1. Fire Frenzy- if unengaged, must fire weapons twice. If possible, target a unit that caused a glancing or pen hit against the dread last turn. Otherwise, nearest visible enemy.
2. Rising Fury- removes effects of crew shaken or stunned. Rage USR for the turn.
3. Blood fury. same as above, but also gains fleet and must run if not within max charge range of the enemy. If it cannot (immobilized mainly) it can fire weapons as normal."

Chaos dreads sound potentially pretty powerful to me, if they can in fact get two TL Reaper AC or a Hades Auto cannon they will be beasts.

Also Warpsmiths are HQ, so take 3 dreads with a warpsmith for support and oh yeah!

[Deadlift]

But is the Hellbrute still restricted by the model from DV ?
I don't see any pics or rumours of an alternative model. I guess some of the FW dreads will do, or the decimator. Actually come to think of it there's no Chaos Dreadnought replacement model at all is there ?

[DrLove42]

No, all the pics are the DV one.

Which makes me think its the Deffkopta of this edition, and is only starter box.

The exact ruling on it could piss off a lot of chaos players with Dreads though if they're no longer usable

[Big_jon]

The Forgeworld Chaos Dreads are still Hellbrutes, I will be using two of them along side my DV dread, in fact in the write up about them it mentions that some of them more resemble the dreadnaught that they once were, but that those who do are just as insane.

otherwise, that would be like saying you can't use older Carnifexes or Hive tyrants because they look different.

[daboarder]

Can someone explain to me the colossal screw up that is the IoN NOT giving FNP but the IoS GIVING IT......WTF WTF WTF WTF IS IT TOO MUCH TO ASK THAT WE CAN PLAT A DEATHGUARD ARMY IN SOME FRAKKING WAY YOU SELFISH MONEY GRUBBING )*)*@#s

[Big_jon]

I wouldn't give up hope just yet, I don't think we've seen enough of the rules to make a judgement. If you're basing the hellbrute stats on the ones in the starter I assumed that they were just temporary to provide a simplified starting experience but it's unlikely that they will be massively different from normal marines as they are just an offshoot of them. I feel like their stats will be different enough when we finally get our hands on the codex, certainly more than just a non-codex loyalist chapter.

Maybe a unit of t5 guys with a 2+sv and FNP would be too much, why would people ever chose anything that was not nurgle termis?

I am pretty sure that DA may give them FNP anyways.

[daboarder]

That's a silly argument, you can already do 2+ T6 W6 FNP regen in this game, Only a fool would think that option is bad especially with all the plasma that is around these days, if DA give FNP to nugle units AND can be taken as 3 per slot then that will go a LONG way to mitigating this screw up but if they don't this is the biggest POS I've read from GW and I'm a nids player as well.

Your Probably right on the DA, oh well time to break out the terminator bits and start moking up a Nurgle DA or 3 then

[Big_jon]

That's a silly argument, you can already do 2+ T6 W6 FNP regen in this game, Only a fool would think that option is bad especially with all the plasma that is around these days, if DA give FNP to nugle units AND can be taken as 3 per slot then that will go a LONG way to mitigating this screw up but if they don't this is the biggest POS I've read from GW and I'm a nids player as well.

Your Probably right on the DA, oh well time to break out the terminator bits and start moking up a Nurgle DA or 3 then

I'm a Nids player too. ;)

[incenerate101]

Well like most flavors of the month, some things made by GW are just dumb. Anyhow, welcome the new OP army until the next one. I just love how they balance things.

OP army? Just because its new doesnt make it OP.

About the table deal it has the same chance going demon prince as it does going chaos spawn. How much would it suck if your badass character turned into a chaos spawn?

I am beyond happy with these new developments on the codex. Kudos to GW

[Learn2Eel]

Looking at the information on Faeit (psychic powers, icons, etc all posted up) it seems that "Veterans of the Long War" is an army special rule. I assume that it applies to Chaos Marines but not Cultists and stuff.

Oh and icons (not marks) give the following bonuses (all icons give +1 to combat resolution);

Rage - Furios Charge, re-roll charge distance, no restriction
Flames - Tzeentch only, Soulblaze on Bolt weapons
Despair - Nurgle only, unit causes Fear
Excess - Slaanesh only, unit gains Feel No Pain (!)
Revenge - unit is Fearless, no restriction

Looks like Fearless can be handed out in droves in this codex.
Customization options looks to rival Space Wolves.
Flesh-something Armour is +2, I'm guessing that's for the Warpsmith.
BIOMANCY! Chaos with Biomancy! He'll yeah!
The god psychic powers are great.

[Learn2Eel]

I already see Daemon Princes and Plague Marines falling out of favor - they don't look like the 'must gave' choices they used to be.
We don't have the codex or points costs yet, but I think standard Chaos Marines, Chaos Lords and our characters in general are getting a massive boost. I think it's great, I've never been this excited for a new release before. There are so many options and they all sound awesome. Slaanesh and Khorne look to be getting some big boosts.
It's as it should be - even our Aspiring Champions should be fearsome. Our Chaos Lords should be killing machines easily able to best Space Marine Captains and so on.
On Daemon Princes, the good thing is that GW isn't completely saying ditch them. I can see them not being taken in army loats but kept around for that "turn into a Daemon Prince" roll on the table.
One gift you can get gives you a free roll on the chart before deployment - imagine your opponents look if your chaos lord turned into a daemon prince - for the price of a chaos lord!

[BatMarine]

It's also nonspecific as to what kind, so there may be some kind of ruling in the book, or it may be basic, or maybe with the mark that it had to begin with, who knows!

[daboarder]

I already see Daemon Princes and Plague Marines falling out of favor - they don't look like the 'must gave' choices they used to be.
We don't have the codex or points costs yet, but I think standard Chaos Marines, Chaos Lords and our characters in general are getting a massive boost. I think it's great, I've never been this excited for a new release before. There are so many options and they all sound awesome. Slaanesh and Khorne look to be getting some big boosts.
It's as it should be - even our Aspiring Champions should be fearsome. Our Chaos Lords should be killing machines easily able to best Space Marine Captains and so on.
On Daemon Princes, the good thing is that GW isn't completely saying ditch them. I can see them not being taken in army loats but kept around for that "turn into a Daemon Prince" roll on the table.
One gift you can get gives you a free roll on the chart before deployment - imagine your opponents look if your chaos lord turned into a daemon prince - for the price of a chaos lord!

I think your opponent is going to LOVE it when your tooled up chaos lord turns into a daemon prince with none of the options before the game even starts.

[Saint_Anger]

Let's paint Blood Gorgons. All hails Gammadin!!!

[Learn2Eel]

I think your opponent is going to LOVE it when your tooled up chaos lord turns into a daemon prince with none of the options before the game even starts.

It was just an example :p If someone runs a cheap-as-chips Chaos Lord and that happens, then I think your opponent will be mightily peeved.
Could you imagine it happening to a ~40 point aspiring champion though? Ridiculous.

How about +1 strength or Fleshbane on a Blissgiver (if the current Daemon Weapons are retained). Hello Paladins, buh-bye Paladins (in one round).
I can see WAAC players already complaining about the random nature of the codex, but hey, that is the whole point of Chaos. I love the sounds of this codex already. And even then, the really random nature seems to stem mostly around the Chaos Boons table anyway. It's not like you are forced to take lots of characters to exploit it.
I even went through all the boons and put a ranking next to them, and out of about 26 unique results (unique being the key word, so I only counted the 11-16 once) only two of them would I say are bad (the Spawn and Nothing ones) and two I thought were mediocre, but could still be useful. The rest provide either good or great buffs.

What if Typhus all of a sudden got Eternal Warrior from killing a sergeant? Or if Abaddon had one wound left and all of a sudden had all four back again? Or if Ahriman - paired with Biomancy and Iron Arm - all of a sudden had Instant Death attacks and what not? The possibilities are astounding......and the wargear options are hugely numerous.

Warlord Traits
1 - Friendly units within 12" of Warlord have Preferred Enemy (Space Marines)
2 - Melee weapons belonging to the Warlord and his unit have Soulblaze
3 - D3 infantry units may infiltrate (could this be new Creed???)
4 - Warlord and unit have hatred (everything!)
5 - Warlord causes Fear
6 - Warlord may re-roll Chaos Boons

Hmm.....these are decent Warlord traits. Re-rolling Chaos Boons is great. Causing Fear is good, but situational as effectively half the armies in the game ignore Fear. Having Hatred Everything on the Warlord and a unit he joins is great, but again, it depends on how often you come up against non-marine armies. D3 infiltrating infantry units is very neat. I can imagine some great tactics that spring up from getting this trait. Soulblaze on the Warlord and unit's melee weapons isn't shabby at all - the extra potential casualties are always nice, and this would help to thin out low-armour save units. Preferred Enemy Space Marines is situational again, but being a 12" bubble, it has some fantastic uses if you are against marines. What's that? All friendly units? My Defiler's battle-cannon is quite happy. My Cultists all of a sudden aren't simply a meatshield anymore. In general, my dice rolls are going to improve.

Some of the wargear pieces I found interesting;

Infernal Ammunition - AP3 : This doesn't say, unlike other ones, whether it is limited to bolt weapons or applies to any ranged weapon you have. I guess we'll see. Having (for example) a Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour with a heavy flamer with this would mean lots of death for marines both in shooting and combat.
Mechadrites - +2 A, includes Meltagun and Flamer : This is a Warpsmith upgrade or something they come with. Also gives +1 to repair results I think.
Seal of Corruption - +4 Invulnerable save : Thank you! Stacks with Mark of Tzeentch for +3 invulnerable save goodness. Eat it Grey Knights - ours covers shooting as well! I hope like hell it is priced like the Space Wolf equivalent and not the Phase Shifter as was rumoured.
Also this;

Wizard's Familiar - re-roll psychic tests : Yowza!

Anyone seen the Daemon Prince upgrades?

Daemon of Khorne - Hatred (Slaanesh), Furious Charge
Daemon of Slaanesh - Hatred (Khorne), Rending, Fleet, runs +3 (or D3) inches
Daemon of Nurgle - Hatred (Tzeentch), Slow and Purposeful, Shrouded
Daemon of Tzeentch - Hatred (Nurgle), Re-roll failed saves of 1

Given that those upgrades do not give stat bonuses, I wonder if these are in addition to Marks or they replace Marks for Daemon Princes entirely? I am guessing it is the latter, considering Marks are referred to separately for other units in the codex, as well as the wording of the psyker part for Daemon Princes (if it is a Daemon Prince of (X), it must choose at least one power from (X)' discipline). If that is the case, I assume Daemon Princes now have a flat statline - they are probably the same as before but T6, maybe even I6.

Also, BIOMANCY on a Daemon Prince!?
By the way, I love how Obliterators have Assault Cannons now :D

This all sounds so awesome, but I guess the telling point - and the big unknown - is the points costs of all of this stuff. Being a Phil Kelly codex, I'm not too worried, but there is always the slight fear that the codex will again get the short end of the stick. I guess it's just the nature of Chaos fans to be pessimistic after the last codex.

[flekkzo]

I'll buy the codex when it goes digital, which i love the way they are set up in iBooks. Eventually I'll only need my iPad and mini rule book :)

Wouldn't be surprised if they do release the mini rulebook for the iPad. If they're smart they release a bunch of iBooks stuff around the 24th of December for all the little warlords opening up their iDevices they got for Emperormass and are searching for "Games Workshop" on :)

[firestorm]

The Chaos Marines lose their Battle Report, so all of those neckbeards who say that new armies always win are WRONG.

No, its because since they fired Pete Haines and Andy Chambers left, there is no one working at GW that actually LIKES Chaos ;) :p :D

I can't believe the prices. How come our aircraft is so expensive, if it was a Transport like the Storm Raven I could understand... I was planning on buying a few of the new flyer and daemon engine kits, but GW have actually scuppered their sales potential as I simply won't be able to afford to.

[Learn2Eel]

By the way, I have to say, if anyone looks at Tastytaste's rumours - the recent ones that talked about the points costs of the Dragon, the Daemon Engines, what the special characters do and what-not - they should really sit up and take notice. He predicted Chaos would be getting Biomancy, that Typhus would have Fear (because the Icon of Nurgle now does that), that Typhus has a S4 AP2 Large Blast (not S4, but the Warp Charge 2 Nurgle power is instead poisoned +4), that chaos vehicles could get mini deff-rollas that did D6 S5 AP- hits, or 2D6 if unit did Death or Glory (spot on), lash whip equivalents that reduced attacks by 1 (correct), you no longer lose all your attacks if you roll a 1 for Daemon Weapon (true), Attack Familiar providing two bonus attacks (correct), he got the Tzeentch psychic powers spot on, etc.

Not trying to promote him at all, don't really care. But it's something I just noticed - some of the stuff he posted hasn't been confirmed yet, and some seems to be wrong, but given how much he got right in a single recent post, I'd say we can look at his other stuff with a kind of validity. And if you do that, you notice how cheap the daemon engines are according to him - 120 for the shooty variant (the Forgefiend), and 135 for the combat variant (the Maulerfiend).
The main point of this post - hope that the daemon engines aren't going to be over-priced for what they do according to another recent rumour (that had the Forgefiend at 175 points).
Ah....what am I saying. It's a Phil Kelly codex. It will have good internal balance and be competitive across the board.
I guess the main thing is that we get a fluffy, fun codex with lots of options. Something us Chaos players have wanted for ages and please god can I shut up now and stop rambling thank you.

[Learn2Eel]

Given the new wargear options and stuff, I wonder what Abaddon will be like in the new codex. Given the recent focus on having one super-powered or near-unkillable combat character in each codex (though obviously Abaddon has always been that way), I wonder if he will be getting any buffs or significant changes. I expect El Topknot to be even stronger than he was, and for the same points cost too. 275 was probably too much for a character that was only really useful in combat (though it's fun that he kicks Draigo's butt from end to end). It wouldn't surprise me if he has that +4 invulnerable save wargear combined with the Mark of Tzeentch for a +3 invulnerable save. I also wonder if his base attacks will change, given the Mark of Khorne now provides Rage and Counter-Attack instead of +1 attack. I've seen rumours that he will be S5 base (so S10 when fighting) and make Chosen troops, so that's something.

Also, I would assume he has a special rule to block him from becoming a Spawn or Daemon Prince on the chart (as hilarious as that would be). When you pair him with some of the buffs on the chart, it really makes me think he is going to be the challenge-king of 40K.

[olberon]

AAAAARGGGGHJHHHH to much new goodies

must resist temptation.....

AAAh what the keck im going to start a new army :P

[Learn2Eel]

General thoughts on what we've seen so far in regards to the Chaos Gods (this is before we know the points costs and general statlines of everything, so please remember these are my impressions and not what I consider to be fact);

Khorne - big buff. The Mark used to be just +1 Attack, which was 'meh'. Now you have both Rage AND Counter-Attack. :eek: So you have +2 attacks on the charge, or, if you pass a leadership test, +1 attack for being charged. This is crazy good now. Whilst Khorne armies will still be hampered by not being able to charge the turn they jump out of a Rhino, they got oh so much more devastating in their preferred arena. Being able to grant Furious Charge to certain units also sounds quite nasty. The Juggernaut mount for a Chaos Lord is now treated as Cavalry, which is great - but who else can take them? Khorne Daemon Princes now have Furious Charge, which mostly helps against other monstrous creatures. Very much thinking Khorne has gotten the boost it needed to deal with the new shooting-oriented edition.

Nurgle - expected debuff. Still +1 Toughness, which is fantastic. I guess GW were as sick of Plague Marines being the be-all end-all of the old codex as we were and decided to hand them a nerf. I mean, come on - T5 and Feel No Pain always looked way better than what the other cult units got. The USR for them is now Fear - it is nice, but considering it doesn't affect half the armies in the game, it isn't all that great. The new Nurgle-specific psychic powers are good, and also have great utility value. Giving an entire unit (infantry or vehicle!) Get's Hot on ALL ranged weapons is crazy. Imagine doing that to an opponent's Leman Russ Punisher, or Land Raider Crusaders. The one power that really jumps out at me from any of the disciplines is the one where you pick an enemy unit within 48" (yes!) and roll a D3; 1 is they lose an attack and gain Shrouding, 2 is they are -1 Strength and cannot run, and 3 is they are -1 Strength AND Toughness! Nurgle Daemon Princes are Slow and Purposeful but get Shrouded in return, so they have a permanent +5 cover save, and due to the new cover rules for monstrous creatures, would get a +3 cover save for being in any old piece of terrain or partially obscured! It helps a lot, and importantly, makes sense. Overall, an unsurprising nerf, but still good - instead of being the outright best, now balanced amongst the others.

Tzeentch - undecided. Being a Tzeentch player, I'll be honest; our last codex sucked for us, and it doesn't look like we are getting any major changes. Mostly Tzeentch's problem was overcosting, and that is something we don't know about yet. Our psychic powers are good - forcing a roll on the Boon table in return for a S4 AP- hit (how often would you die to this?), Bolt of Tzeentch (now Doombolt) being a beam and making vehicles explode go 2D6" radius, a nasty random Primaris that can kill lots of models if you get a decent Strength and scatter, etc. The fact that we can have characters with a +3 invulnerable save is great. Our mark is unchanged, although no word on if it still gives +1 Mastery Level to a psyker. Our USR (i.e. Khorne had Furious Charge, Nurgle had Feel No Pain) from the last codex hasn't changed, because we didn't really have one. Apparently Rubric Marines are only Slow and Purposeful if the Aspiring Sorcerer dies, which is much better. Soul Blaze is ok, against low armour-save units you can kill a few extra models, which is always nice, or even a marine. It looks like we've gained stuff and not really lost anything, so I would usually say it is a buff, but again, our major problem has always been over-costing. So wait and see. Our Daemon Prince gets to re-roll ALL saving throws of 1. If Daemon Princes in general have the stat bonuses that I think they will (i.e. T6 +4 invulnerable save), then Tzeentch ones just became scary durable. If you take your +3 armour save, half your failed saves are 1s, which you can re-roll. If they do have a +4 invulnerable save, a third of your failed saves are 1s, which you can re-roll. Our sorcerers (not sure if Aspiring Sorcerers too) can also take a magic familiar that lets us re-roll psychic tests (YAY!). Overall, it's an improvement - we've gotten more and lost nothing really that I can tell. The big question remains - are we cheaper?

Slaanesh - big buff. Never really bad or great in the old codex, just like Khorne - ok, whilst Tzeentch was bad and Nurgle great. Mark is the same, still a decent mark. But now the icon/USR is Feel No Pain, which makes a lot of sense from a fluff point of view. I5 marines with Feel No Pain? Yes please. The best part of all? It doesn't scream "take me" like Plague Marines did in the old codex. The Slaaneshi psychic powers are great - and yes, I know. No more Lash (although some are saying it is still there, just not as a psychic power). Counting sonic weapons (that are S5 in the old codex and presumably the same in the new one) as +1 Strength against a unit that also becomes BS1 and WS1 is nuts. 3s and 2s marines! Take a butt load of saves....Say you want to buff your own units, maybe a Terminator unit. Roll a D3; they either get +1 Initiative, +1 Strength or +1 Attack. You can make an enemy unit hit themselves at their own Strength (no word on if it includes special weapons - if it does, oh my...). Like Tzeentch in the old codex, a thing about Slaanesh was that to run the theme (i.e. giving all Noise Marines Sonic Blasters) you had to pay the price for it. If they are cheaper, that's great. Oh, and the Slaaneshi Daemon Prince? Fleet, Rending and +3" to your Run moves. Yeah. Slaanesh sounds like it will be really fun to play in the new rules, and their psykers also have the best kind of powers.

Again, before points-costs, I would say that I keenly believe the gods seems a bit more balanced against each other than before. Khorne makes up for the shooty-sided nature of 6th by getting some fantastic buffs to their close combat ability (basically just even more attacks). Tzeentch has gained stuff and not lost out on anything, and also having the best witchfire powers. Nurgle has lost Feel No Pain but gets arguably the best psychic power of the lot, and some other decent buffs. Slaanesh has moved up quite a bit with Feel No Pain and the crazier psychic powers.
Just even more general ramblings :) I am so excited! Each of the gods sounds viable now, hopefully the points costs reflect that! Also, being able to mix and match Marks and Icons on many units could really see some very interesting unit builds. Please charge me whilst I rapid-fire you and then get Counter-Attack (Khorne). Sure, shoot that Lascannon at me. I ignore it better than Grey Knights do (Tzeentch). Hey blob-guard. Test for Fear please. 5s and 6s thanks (Nurgle). What's that? I strike before you and I get Feel No Pain? Yeah, please challenge my Aspiring Champion with a power sword. I beg you (Slaanesh).

[DrLove42]

All I can say is Mark of Tzeentch to a unit of terminators.

Reroll failed armour saves of a 1 (so....all the failed saves) and a better invulnerable? Yes please

[Learn2Eel]

All I can say is Mark of Tzeentch to a unit of terminators.

Reroll failed armour saves of a 1 (so....all the failed saves) and a better invulnerable? Yes please

It's only for Daemon Princes mate, unfortunately. If we could re-roll all of our failed saves....well, they FAQ'd Fateweaver to not affect Chaos Space Marines for just that reason I think.

[DrWobbles]

Khorne - big buff. The Mark used to be just +1 Attack, which was 'meh'. Now you have both Rage AND Counter-Attack. :eek: So you have +2 attacks on the charge, or, if you pass a leadership test, +1 attack for being charged. This is crazy good now....

...Nurgle has lost Feel No Pain but gets arguably the best psychic power of the lot, and some other decent buffs.

The only buff to mark of khorne is one extra attack on the charge, after the first round of combat... no bonus attacks.

Nurgle has the best psychic power?? are you talking about the one that has 1/3 chance to give your opponent +2 to their cover save or the one that makes everything gets hot? either or, not very impressive, situational, and unreliable. Nurgle lost wind of chaos (its all Tzeentch's now) and lost FNP to Slaanesh.

of course there's a lot yet to be discovered but im not too happy being a follower of nurgle.

[Learn2Eel]

The only buff to mark of khorne is one extra attack on the charge, after the first round of combat... no bonus attacks.

Nurgle has the best psychic power?? are you talking about the one that has 1/3 chance to give your opponent +2 to their cover save or the one that makes everything gets hot? either or, not very impressive, situational, and unreliable. Nurgle lost wind of chaos (its all Tzeentch's now) and lost FNP to Slaanesh.

of course there's a lot yet to be discovered but im not too happy being a follower of nurgle.

I guess you could look at it that way, but Khorne charges are definitely more devastating. Also, being able to grant Furious Charge to units that couldn't take it before is very big. S5 Terminators anyone?

I said arguably. You have the same chance to make them -1 Strength and Toughness, and on average, they will be -1 Strength. When you realize your own units are +1 Toughness because of the Mark of Nurgle, then you see my point. The Gets Hot one is better than you think. 10 rapid-firing Space Marines would result in at least one dead marine, for example. Try that for 30 Ork Shoota Boys. 9 dead. It might not sound all that great, but it will make opponents stop and consider whether it is worth the risk. Put on a vehicle/unit that puts out a lot of shots and you can cause some havoc. When you compare it to the old codex, it is quite a bit better. Nurgle's Rot is different, but I think it is better. Every unit within 6" suffers D6+1 Poisoned (+4) hits that are AP5. That sounds better than every model within 6" suffering a S3 AP- hit to me, especially if there are multiple units in range.

I don't think you can really complain that they changed it dude. I'll be honest; I'm being optimistic and generous in my appraisals. Also, surely you see why they've debuffed Nurgle a bit right? I think everyone was sick of always seeing Plague Marines in "competitive" lists, but not the other cult units. Plus, it makes a whole lot of sense for Slaanesh to have Feel No Pain. Also, you get a Large Blast that is Poisoned (+4) and is AP2. I wouldn't be too worried dude. There was a pretty big imbalance before, and it's obvious Phil Kelly has tried to get rid of that.

One thing I'm really excited for is having decent psychic powers, and each god having their own mini-tree is so awesome. This codex is just screaming "personality" to me. Ultimately, that's all I want. A codex that is less like the current Chaos Space Marines and more like Space Wolves. Lots of customization options, lots of viable unit choices, flavour, etc.
Also, it will be good to have better in-codex psychic powers and not have to pay for them :D
It's hard to tell initially which god has the most useful psychic powers. In my experience, buffs and debuffs are the more reliable. Still...
Tzeentch - Bolt of Tzeentch (now Doombolt) is an 18" S8 AP1 line of death. Much better than before. The Primaris is good, the free Boon roll is 'random' and risky but will usually lead to a good buff. Also the proven Wind of Chaos for our Warp Charge 2 power. I am quite happy to run Tzeentch sorcerers and not have to switch their powers out.
Nurgle - already discussed, good Primaris, great witchfire power, good debuffs (if random). Again, unlike the previous codex I wouldn't mind running a Nurgle sorcerer.
Slaanesh - the Primaris is pretty good. The buff power is excellent. The debuff is very good, especially when combined with Noise Marines. The Warp Charge 2 power is good, but whether any bonuses from special weapons apply or not is the big question right now - if they do, then this power is insane. I'd much rather take this discipline over two of the ones we have access too.

I've touched on it before, but having Biomancy is a big plus for any psyker in our army. Though it is better suited to Tyranids and monstrous creatures in general, it is still a great addition to our potential powers. Whilst Divination would have made sense, at least we still get one of the most useful (IMO) psychic disciplines in the BRB. Our Daemon Princes and Ahriman would gets lots of use from Biomancy, as well Sorcerer Lords kitted out for combat.

[the jeske]

And if you do that, you notice how cheap the daemon engines are according to him - 120 for the shooty variant (the Forgefiend), and 135 for the combat variant (the Maulerfiend).
that kind of a depands how you look at them . If you want to run a naked , no marks , no icons , no weapon upgrades one then yeah 120 it is , but then they are kind of a crapy with upgrade they cost a lot more . fully upgraded tzeench shoty forgefiend costs like a land raider.


Also, you get a Large Blast that is Poisoned (+4) and is AP2. I wouldn't be too worried dude.
that is stoped by imperials ona +4 because of priests or doesnt get cast at all against those with seers . Stuff that may work , does not balance losing stuff that always works . But anyone who played more then 1 edition knows GW is going to kill oblits, DPs and pms . sucks for nurgle players , but then again I played EC for whole 5th .

[Learn2Eel]

that kind of a depands how you look at them . If you want to run a naked , no marks , no icons , no weapon upgrades one then yeah 120 it is , but then they are kind of a crapy with upgrade they cost a lot more . fully upgraded tzeench shoty forgefiend costs like a land raider.

Have you seen their rules? I think Tastytaste said that the 120 base included Daemonic Possession, It Will Not Die, and two Butcher Cannons/Hades Autocannons. I wouldn't exactly call that crappy. It's just speculation on my part though, given that one of the other Forgefiend pictures appeared to have three plasma cannons (fitting in with the Ectoplasm Cannon rumours, and the high points cost ones).

It's stopped by Rune Priests on a +4, but for most armies on the game, it will be a +6 or a +5 if they have a psyker. Funnily enough, the average roll of 3D6 is 9. It is essentially the same as a Rune Priest rolling a +4, except Eldar and Tyranids also get a Deny the Witch roll after that. I'm not sure I understand the "stuff that may work does not balance losing stuff that always works" comment. What did they lose that always worked? The new codex psychic powers are light years ahead of most of the old ones, there only being two exceptions (Wind of Chaos and Lash of Submission). Would you rather have just Nurgle's Rot for being a Nurgle psyker (when I say that I mean running a Nurgle Sorcerer Lord with the appropriate power, like running a Tzeentch lord with Bolt and Doombolt) or the potential to roll up two powers that are much better? I don't see how anyone can complain about psychic powers when most of ours are much better and we also get access to one of the best psychic disciplines in the BRB now. We can also apparently take Mastery Level 2 Sorcerer Lords without the Mark of Tzeentch (or Typhus from 5th). The reality is, every psyker struggles against Space Wolves, Eldar and Tyranids. We haven't gotten worse on that front, we've gotten better.

I assume you are referring to Typhus in regards to automatically-passing psychic tests? Wait and see mate, for all we know, Typhus may still do that and still be immune to Perils. Given that it is a new codex and it's Phil Kelly, I would count on Typhus being better than he was, as all the special characters should be.

[eldargal]

It seems like the 'let's whine about everything in the codex based on a rough knowledge of a handful of things from a couple of blurry, small pages in WD' stage of the release then.

[Kirsten]

yeah :P

[Psychosplodge]

And you're surprised why?

[eldargal]

Not surprised, it happens every release.

[Psychosplodge]

Indeed it does.

[DrLove42]

As does the "ZOMG this is so broken!"

[Learn2Eel]

I'm happy to say I am in neither camp :) I don't think the codex sounds OP, and there's nothing for me to whinge about either. I am just so excited, I could burst!

[Psychosplodge]

I'm happy to say I am in neither camp :) I don't think the codex sounds OP, and there's nothing for me to whinge about either. I am just so excited, I could burst!

http://youtu.be/cDBlqu6KF4k

[DrLove42]

Same here. I just want to play with it. The army is going to take a while to build up, but the fact its released a week after my every 3 month payday is clearly a sign.

And before I get the inevitable bandwagon jumping calls, i chose to start the army before I'd even seen the DV minis

[Caitsidhe]

I am a CSM player and my read of all the stuff released so far makes me think CSM got weaker. I can't say for certain until I get the full book and see what the "special characters" do; this is a herohammer edition after all. My views are based on the limited information we have so far but follow from:]

1. They eliminated some of the best CSM options. We knew we were going to lose the Lash, but we also lost Outflank and a glut of meltaguns on the Chosen. One of the best uses of the Chosen was to crack parking lots and give the rest of your army a chance to make it across the board. They were suicide squads. Now they are overpriced close combat units in an army already chock full of close combat units in a game edition that puts MOST of the weight on shooting. They didn't give the shooting version of Oblits anti-air, reserving that for Havocs. This too is a LOSS since anti-vehicle was a perk of Oblits. To get anti-air we have to take fewer Obliterators which we need to deal with the Terminator spam of this Edition. Loss and loss again.

2. The stuff they gave us is awful. I won't go into how unimpressed I am with the models beyond saying it reminded me of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle movie sequels and Transformers. What I will go into is the fact that they are all vehicles. Vehicles suck in this edition. There is no other way to say it. The GK were purposely given Monstrous Creature for something that is CLEARLY a vehicle to allow them to avoid the suck. :) Those supposed perks which are supposed to give us a way for our vehicles a chance to survive are red herrings. Most vehicles die the same turn they are shot so regaining health is pointless. The built in cover save is nice but hardly going to stop dedicated intention to destroy. Here is the thing, all those vehicles are expensive and slot heavy. You can't really spam them effectively. That means your opponents have the luxury of being dedicated to their destruction. Why not? What they have given us is a bunch of glass cannons; no thank you.

I remain hopeful that there is a lot more to see but so far (and I have read every word carefully) I'm not impressed.

[Psychosplodge]

I've wanted to do a themed berzerker only army for years, doubt I'll ever get round to it...

[Caitsidhe]

I've wanted to do a themed berzerker only army for years, doubt I'll ever get round to it...

Me too but with what I've read so far, they still aren't the least bit feasible. I hope to see different when the book is out, but the omens and portents aren't positive.

[eldargal]

You mean they have lost some of the best choices in the old book. Butyou don't know what they may have been replaced with or what is happening with points or any other number of variables. I'm reminded of the nerdrage which hit the web when it emerged DE wyches had lost power weapons. All teh same stuff being said 'omg fewer options, wyches suck and will never get taken etc.' then it turned out the killy power weapons had been given to incubi and wyches were now exceptional tarpits also able to throw ridiculous numbers of dice at the enemy.

The point is you can't judge until you have ALL the rules, costs and options. You are judging a couple of units in a vaccuum based on a handful of changes.

[DrLove42]

Not to mention nothing on points. If eveyrthing got a little worse, but got 33% cheaper, it gets better overal

[Psychosplodge]

Me too but with what I've read so far, they still aren't the least bit feasible. I hope to see different when the book is out, but the omens and portents aren't positive.

It doesn't need to be feasible to be fun lol, I just imagine the look of horror on your opponents face if you successfully move nothing but raving khornate loonies into a gun line and chop them to pieces...


Not to mention nothing on points. If eveyrthing got a little worse, but got 33% cheaper, it gets better overal

Or at least you need more of everything again...

[Caitsidhe]

You mean they have lost some of the best choices in the old book. Butyou don't know what they may have been replaced with or what is happening with points or any other number of variables. I'm reminded of the nerdrage which hit the web when it emerged DE wyches had lost power weapons. All teh same stuff being said 'omg fewer options, wyches suck and will never get taken etc.' then it turned out the killy power weapons had been given to incubi and wyches were now exceptional tarpits also able to throw ridiculous numbers of dice at the enemy.

I say that I am withholding final judgement until I see the final product. I'm merely saying that price and options matter. It doesn't matter what options we get if there is no synergy overall to slots and function. This Edition favors shooting. I doubt anyone disagrees on that point. Shooting is helped by effective, saturation shooting supported by low prices.

The problem is that CSM has never been built that way. We have a good idea of the Cultists now and they aren't providing the saturation firepower. It appears from what we have seen so far that they are giving us a lot of overpriced vehicles with firepower options and our normal HIGH PRICE infantry options which shoot well but cannot bring enough firepower to match the opposition. That means to equalize that debt, we must somehow get into hand to hand combat with the opponent and have hand to hand units which are capable of the job. Synergy and application matter. I've been playing a LOT of 6th Edition. I'm a tactical wargamer and care about the bright colors only in so far as they work on the field. I am not locked in any Edition. I use what works and could care less about what doesn't. I adapt. That has always been my advantage in these kinds of games, i.e. a rapid assessment of logistical application which leads to reliable improvisation when a plan falls apart. Wars are not won by those with the most innovative ideas. They are won by those that make the fewest mistakes. It doesn't matter what they give us or take away. What matters is the end product and whether or not it works in application. Can we match opposing firepower? Can our close combat reach the opponent intact enough to do the job. What answers do we have for certain threats. Do our higher costed units make up for it with their abilities.


The point is you can't judge until you have ALL the rules, costs and options. You are judging a couple of units in a vaccuum based on a handful of changes.

I agree that final judgement does have to wait for the book to be in our hands. That doesn't mean we can't already make certain assessments. I already know I will NEVER purchase those vehicles. There is no need. I've seen their stats already. They bring nothing I need to the table. I know how vehicles work in 6th Edition. I know what firepower those bring to bear. I know how easily they will die. Short of finding out there are some secret "stacking" perks in the full book (which is unlikely) those things are DOA. :) I am making my assessments as I go because I watch my pocketbook. I'm not going to buy anything which doesn't perform on the table better than what I already have. I suspect it is the special characters that are going to make or break CSM this edition.

[Caitsidhe]

It doesn't need to be feasible to be fun lol, I just imagine the look of horror on your opponents face if you successfully move nothing but raving khornate loonies into a gun line and chop them to pieces...

That is a difference between you and I. I accept it. To me this is a tactical strategy game. To you it is something else. I only put ineffective choices in when I am purposely making my list weak to help a learning opponent (without them knowing I am helping them by giving myself a handicap). Moreover, getting lucky and having a list that isn't feasible win might be amusing, but is is still just luck. I wouldn't take any enjoyment from a victory that was luck anymore than I would take discomfort from a loss that was just luck. To me that is just empty calories, like playing Candyland. I understand your different take on it intellectually, I simply do not get anything from it and thus cannot understand it emotionally.

[Psychosplodge]

yeah I can accept that.
I suppose nothing beats watching a tau battle suit ripping the wings off a daemon prince though...:D

[eldargal]

I say that I am withholding final judgement until I see the final product
But you're not, you've already made 'assessments' and decided whatever you don't like the look of is ineffective.

I'm merely saying that price and options matter.
Prices and options you don't know.

This Edition favors shooting. I doubt anyone disagrees on that point
I do, both shooting and assault are finely balanced, rather than favouring assault in the previous edition. Anyone who thinks assault is less effective hasn't played a wellthought out assault list.

The problem is that CSM has never been built that way.
Irrelevent.

We have a good idea of the Cultists now and they aren't providing the saturation firepower.
Cultists are chaff in the background and should be chaff on the table.

And the rest is just a bunch of assumptions and pre-judgements wrapped up in nonsense.

You have NO idea the costs and special abilities of most unnits, you hae NO idea how things will synergise, you have onyl a vague idea of how the vehicles work and all yo ucan do is make judgements based on what you want based on hte old book. That is never a sound judgement of an upcoming codex. There is nothing here but whine.

This happens with every bloody release and it is frankly getting tedious. You can't judge a codex based on a few unit rules, special rules and prices divorced from context. But people insist on bloody doing it to have something to whine about it.

I don't even like Chaos Marines.

[Caitsidhe]

But you're not, you've already made 'assessments' and decided whatever you don't like the look of is ineffective.

Prices and options you don't know.

I do, both shooting and assault are finely balanced, rather than favouring assault in the previous edition. Anyone who thinks assault is less effective hasn't played a wellthought out assault list.

Irrelevent.

Cultists are chaff in the background and should be chaff on the table.

And the rest is just a bunch of assumptions and pre-judgements wrapped up in nonsense.

You have NO idea the costs and special abilities of most unnits, you hae NO idea how things will synergise, you have onyl a vague idea of how the vehicles work and all yo ucan do is make judgements based on what you want based on hte old book. That is never a sound judgement of an upcoming codex. There is nothing here but whine.

This happens with every bloody release and it is frankly getting tedious. You can't judge a codex based on a few unit rules, special rules and prices divorced from context. But people insist on bloody doing it to have something to whine about it.

If you say so. I think we have seen quite a bit in the last few days in both options and prices. I know enough to know I won't be buying the Daemon Engines or the Dragon. What they provide does not offset what they will cost me. Vehicles are always a gamble in a game where going second can see 50-100% of them on the table destroyed before you even move. :)

*Also remember that I am an American and our tournament games often outnumber our pick up games. That is a significant difference. It means I will be fighting GK, Necrons, Dark Eldar, and Space Wolves most of the time. :D That means I have to measure the options they give us in application of the games I will be getting. The biggest part of the problem is the GW release method wherein all the codex are not tested and released in CONTEXT with one another. For better for worst, vehicles are DOA for me. Most vehicles in my local META are dead by turn two if they start on the table and turn three if they come in from reserve. :D

[Caitsidhe]

I do, both shooting and assault are finely balanced, rather than favouring assault in the previous edition. Anyone who thinks assault is less effective hasn't played a wellthought out assault list.

I wanted to answer this one on its own because it merits it. I consider myself a pretty good player. I have, in fact, built quite an army out of prize support I won. That is irrelevant because everyone THINKS they are a good player. I pride myself on balanced lists, what I call "all comer" lists and getting the right mix of assault and shooting is very important to me. It is possible, however, that you are far superior to me and I simply don't "get it" yet. Other players I know who are very skilled, however, also have come to the same conclusion I have. Lots and lots of competitive 6th Edition play has already evolved lists into big gun lines. This isn't because these players are inadequate (quite the reverse). Most of these players had assault heavy armies in 5th Edition. It has been a progression wherein their lists slowly but surely dropped assault unit after assault unit. It went against their grain but test after test proved the more shooting on the table the more effective they became. The only close combat units, i.e. those whose primary purpose is close combat, that remain are Terminators and Assault Marines and even those tend to be used sparingly or with careful application only after the shooting has done its job. Getting assault troops to the opponent, particularly one who understands how to set priority to threats and concentrate fire is no easy task these days. I never turn down advice from those who are in the know and since you opened the door to this discussion please post one of these well thought lists and give us some step by step explanation so I make sure I apply it correctly. I am accepting your suggestion completely and now I'm all ears to hear how it is done so I can knock myself on the side of the head and say, "why didn't I think of that."

[eldargal]

I really love the idea of race specific warlord traits, can't wait to see what eldar get. If they are good and if autarchs get some kind of bonus perhaps it might make them worth taking.

[the jeske]

Cultists are chaff in the background and should be chaff on the table.
this isnt WFB there is no charge redirection in w40k and with first blood in taking weak easy to kill troops is a recipy for disaster . One could of course take an aegis and play it IG style , but without orders to get up and without weapon teams or at least plasma guns , it makes little sense game wise to take cultists.


I do, both shooting and assault are finely balanced, rather than favouring assault in the previous edition. Anyone who thinks assault is less effective hasn't played a wellthought out assault list.
realy ? a hth army is just as adaptable to any game as scyth wing or IG lists . at how many points played does that start to happen and how tall/windowless the LoS! terrain has to be for that to happen



Given that it is a new codex and it's Phil Kelly, I would count on Typhus being better than he was, as all the special characters should be.

Maybe if he was an eldar.




It's stopped by Rune Priests on a +4, but for most armies on the game, it will be a +6 or a +5 if they have a psyker. Funnily enough, the average roll of 3D6 is 9.
what do you mean by most ? all imperials battle brother SW save for GK . eldar tau and dark eldar run either priests or seers . the only ones that dont is chaos [pre new dex] , necron[dont need it] and nids[cant , but technicly have shadow] and am not a math person , but am sure that avarge out of 3d6 is 11.


What did they lose that always worked?

feel no pain.


I don't see how anyone can complain about psychic powers when most of ours are much better and we also get access to one of the best psychic disciplines in the BRB now.
A chaos powers are still worse then rule book P-school
B we still dont have a hood and cant run RP/seers like almost everyone else
C biomancy for chaos is win more . now if fiends or the dragon could get psyker level 1 with mark of tzeench it would be different.



I assume you are referring to Typhus in regards to automatically-passing psychic tests? Wait and see mate, for all we know, Typhus may still do that and still be immune to Perils.
he doesnt . on both counts + again high cost HQ that has to be run in weaker versions of LR isnt realy a boost.



I just imagine the look of horror on your opponents face if you successfully move nothing but raving khornate loonies into a gun line and chop them to pieces...
and they you notice they are flyers and you cant hit them in melee.




If eveyrthing got a little worse, but got 33% cheaper, it gets better overal
ill drop the cost of a lemman russ by 20 pts but switcht the gun to str7 ap 4 . how offten will it see use ?


I really love the idea of race specific warlord traits, can't wait to see what eldar get. If they are good and if autarchs get some kind of bonus perhaps it might make them worth taking.
2 different set of warlord traits. one of psykers and one for non psykers [pirate prince , autarch , phoenix lords. asur dude roll 2 times] . avatar cant roll on the warlord table and cant be the army general :( .

[magickbk]

Lots and lots of competitive 6th Edition play

There's your problem. The Lounge has competitive play arguments going all the way back to the time of the Old Ones, but everyone can agree that the game as a whole is not designed for competitive play. Competitive players min/max the game into a tiny sub-section of the range that seem competitive. So when you look at the rumors out there, competitive players and casual players see something completely different. In the end, you can argue all day about particular units or Codex strength, but you won't convince a casual player that Cultists aren't worth it, because those of us that love the background will take every Cultist we can cram in our lists and we'll try to find a way to win with them while we let them get slaughtered to the delight of the Chaos Gods. Casual players will never convince you that you are playing the game wrong and missing out on the whole of the 40K universe and story, because that isn't what you want to get out of the game. There's enough room in the game for both camps, but don't try to convince everyone from the other side that the new Codex is going to fail because the rumors don't seem to support it being the new top tournament army.

Also, lists are only part of the equation. There is no single best assault army list. Most tournaments have a dreadfully low concentration of terrain, giving gun line armies a significant advantage. 40K isn't chess, it is meant to be played on a table with a certain minimum concentration of various terrain types. That is how assault armies work. Use the terrain to prevent them from being shot up, while using quick-moving shooting units to soften up opposing units or taking out units that are a serious threat to your advancing assault units.

My own lists are rarely thought out all that well. I have a tendency to have a few units carefully built for game purposes, and a few units that are things I just want to paint, or a way to work in really old models from my collection that I never got a chance to use. I'm excited to finally be painting a lead Rogue Trader Imperial Psyker to put in a unit in my Inquisition army (Coteaz Henchmen). My table at home has pretty heavy terrain density, because I love building terrain. It has a way of equalizing almost every army.

That was all pretty rambly, but my primary point is that the game is played in many ways all over the world, and maybe the apparent disparity doesn't have anything to do with Codex strength, but the way the game is played where you usually are.

[Caitsidhe]

There's your problem.

I don't have a problem. I always gives my advice and comments in CONTEXT that I am a competitive player and that my assessments are based on application in a competitive format. That way people reading my commentary can apply it where appropriate. People choosing to take umbrage of feel there is an issue because this model and that model will work in some other situation are missing the points I'm making. I say that "I" won't buy these models (I make no comment on what you should do). I say they are DOA for me and I explain why.

[eldargal]

The issue isn't competitive vs non-competitive play, the issue is that people are making blanket assertions about the codex before they have read it, let alone played any games with it. This happens EVERY release and EVERY time it is never as bad as people made out.

Another thing to bear in mind, this is the first codex for 6th edition, it may be inteded to level the playing field as occured with 8th edition. When the first 8th ed book came out, Tomb Kings, everyone raged about crappy it was vs the old OP books. Then the next book came out, Ogre Kingdoms, and while it had a bit better internal balance it was still roughly equal to TK. Then Vamprie Counts came out and low and behold the same thing again, we see GW creating a roughly level playfield for 8th edition with the only OP books remaining ar the 7th edition ones. For all we know we will see a similar thing with 6th edition, that the 6th ed codices are remarkably well balanced against each other and it is only the OP books from 5th unbalancing things. This would be a good thing.

[Caitsidhe]

The issue isn't competitive vs non-competitive play, the issue is that people are making blanket assertions about the codex before they have read it, let alone played any games with it. This happens EVERY release and EVERY time it is never as bad as people made out.

And I think you had a knee-jerk reaction to my responses because of other people. Most of my assessments are limited to the stats and costs so far released or from reliable sources. I acknowledge that my final judgement will depend on what I haven't seen yet, i.e. if it replaces synergy or gives something back to these models. At no point have I said CSM sucks nor indicated I would take my models out and stomp them in a field like that copy machine in the movie Office Space. :) What I said is that from what I've seen so far the CSM did not get stronger because of the interactions of 6th Edition reality with the mechanics they are giving us. I am very hopeful that what we haven't seen (since I am a CSM player ONLY) will balance the problems out.

[eldargal]

Perhaps, but you alrady said you had no use for the vehicles when you have no idea how they will synergise with the rest of the book yet, you only hav the old book to compare it to.

[Caitsidhe]

Perhaps, but you alrady said you had no use for the vehicles when you have no idea how they will synergise with the rest of the book yet, you only hav the old book to compare it to.

Agreed. I will be thrilled, overjoyed even to eat crow if it turns out we get something that makes vehicles viable in my META. I am not looking at the old book. I am basing my assessments on the reality of 6th Edition competitive play wherein vehicles die right and left, do not contest objectives, and can be outrun by infantry on foot. :D Obviously those that fly are exempt from being outrun. I don't care about 5th Edition. It is dead and gone, buried for me the day the last 5th Edition tournament ended. I have no sentimentality on the issue. What I do care about is what happens in 6th Edition and the Codex I face on a day to day basis that go through vehicles faster than a hot knife through butter. I also know that the average tournament size has gone to 1500 or a little higher due to the SLOWER rules set. This mean expensive vehicles are right out the door because I don't have the room for them even when they do almost make their points back. :) Do you see where I'm going with this?

Why on Earth (or planet of your choice) is that giant mechanical walker exoskeleton a Monstrous Creature when things which are clearly creatures are actually vehicles? :D The only answer is that vehicles go down too easy so the GK got a Monstrous Creature instead. I would gladly play some of those models if they were MC.

[magickbk]

I don't have a problem.

Sorry, I wasn't saying you had a problem. Around here, the phrase "There's your problem" is interchangeable with "the root cause of the issue/disagreement is". We also misuse a few prepositional articles, and we murder the hell out of our vowels. This guy does a great video on our regional dialect. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3lZFiyd_-0

[BatMarine]

ill drop the cost of a lemman russ by 20 pts but switcht the gun to str7 ap 4 . how offten will it see use ?



a 40 point front armor 14, with s7 ap4 pieplate? I'd spam that for days! Can I just put that gun and armor on a Rhino?

They said drop the points by a third, I'm pretty sure 20 points isn't a third of the cost of a Leman Russ, or I'm playing the wrong army.

Edit: That video is AWESOME


This guy does a great video on our regional dialect. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3lZFiyd_-0

[Kirsten]

I
1. They eliminated some of the best CSM options. We knew we were going to lose the Lash, but we also lost Outflank and a glut of meltaguns on the Chosen. One of the best uses of the Chosen was to crack parking lots and give the rest of your army a chance to make it across the board. They were suicide squads.
They didn't give the shooting version of Oblits anti-air, reserving that for Havocs. This too is a LOSS since anti-vehicle was a perk of Oblits. To get anti-air we have to take fewer Obliterators which we need to deal with the Terminator spam of this Edition. Loss and loss again.

2. The stuff they gave us is awful.
What I will go into is the fact that they are all vehicles. Vehicles suck in this edition. There is no other way to say it.
The GK were purposely given Monstrous Creature for something that is CLEARLY a vehicle to allow them to avoid the suck. :)


Well pretty much all of this is nonsense, to be perfectly honest.
So you may have to stop sacrificing elite chosen units to blow up a vehicle? damn, how tragic you need to adjust a tactic
Vehicles are great in this edition, there is no reason at all to claim they all get blown up turn one, or in any kind of hurry. I use an imperial guard armoured company, and have done since imperial armour 1 came out, I can tell you that claim does not hold true.
Nemesis Dreadknights have no bearing at all on the chaos codex, and that they are monstrous creatures has no relevance here, if you say they are 'clearly' vehicles well they look like a big suit of walking armour, you may as well say terminators should be vehicles.
There is no reason why obliterators must get skyfire, that would just make them all singing all dancing and far too good. You might have to take less in order to get some havocs? again, my heart bleeds for you, it is a new edition, you adapt. Obliterators are not the only way of dealing with terminators either, there are plenty more AP2 weapons to bring to the field.

I have used chaos space marines since third edition and I am very excited by this release, it looks like a great book.

[Caitsidhe]

Well pretty much all of this is nonsense, to be perfectly honest.

Do you always qualify how honest you are being? :) Isn't the default to be perfectly honest all the time?


So you may have to stop sacrificing elite chosen units to blow up a vehicle? damn, how tragic you need to adjust a tactic

I suppose this is what passes as wit and sarcasm? I think you could do better. In any event, you aren't stating anything I don't know. That was kind of the point of the assessment. Chosen have to have a job to fill that they do better than other models. They weren't used for anything but their Outflank ability before due to slot, price, and abilities. The question remains of what will their new job be and can it be done better by something else. It always comes down to how much bang you get for the buck. Nobody is mourning the loss of a specific tactic. The question is what is their actual job now?


Vehicles are great in this edition,

You have no credibility with me from here on in. I prefer to be direct.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Woahwawaweeweewah!

People, let's chill out, it's just a game at the end of the day.

Whatever mental armies may come out of this Codex to start will probably end up getting nerfed and become insignificant in a few months.

I, for one, cannot wait to see what people do with the models! I want to see some nicely painted and converted models. See what you can do with the kits!

Peace bros!

[Deadlift]

I think the raptor kit could be adapted to make standard troops, expensive but very cool.

[Caitsidhe]

Woahwawaweeweewah!

People, let's chill out, it's just a game at the end of the day.

Whatever mental armies may come out of this Codex to start will probably end up getting nerfed and become insignificant in a few months.

I, for one, cannot wait to see what people do with the models! I want to see some nicely painted and converted models. See what you can do with the kits!

Peace bros!

Fair enough and my own apologies for my part. Things will be interesting. I will be doing a lot of conversions. I will post my favorite models later just for you.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Cool, thank you for your apology, and that's as far as it needs to go.

If anyone else kicks that up again I will be having words.

[the jeske]

Why on Earth (or planet of your choice) is that giant mechanical walker exoskeleton a Monstrous Creature when things which are clearly creatures are actually vehicles? :D The only answer is that vehicles go down too easy so the GK got a Monstrous Creature instead. I would gladly play some of those models if they were MC.
because the DT has no idea how to balance MC , so the safer way it to make vehicles out of everything and nerfed the DP in to non viable . they did the same with ctan in the necron book . And we are going to be waiting years for a nid one .

and GK ? well the problem with Ward desing is that , if he thinks stuff should be powerful [to a edition destroying level] , he will do it . He doesnt have any "I may be taking this to far" build in like H-man or Chambers had [H-man actualy removed some rules for IW , in the first version of the dex they had dread squadrons for example].


I suppose this is what passes as wit and sarcasm? I think you could do better. In any event, you aren't stating anything I don't know. That was kind of the point of the assessment. Chosen have to have a job to fill that they do better than other models. They weren't used for anything but their Outflank ability before due to slot, price, and abilities. The question remains of what will their new job be and can it be done better by something else. It always comes down to how much bang you get for the buck. Nobody is mourning the loss of a specific tactic. The question is what is their actual job now?
true . this is again the question of . Do you want a unit of terminator costed +3sv dudes that do hth . We had that before possessed/hth chosen vs zerkers.



ah and before anyone says , am dissing the codex. I love it . For example in my version the eye of the god table roll that improves the save by +1 doesnt have the "to a maximum of +2" in it.So behold the +1 sv terminator armor/warpsmith. I realy wish they gave lords/sorc an option to get a chaos rune/artificer power armor .


a 40 point front armor 14, with s7 ap4 pieplate? I'd spam that for days! Can I just put that gun and armor on a Rhino?

They said drop the points by a third, I'm pretty sure 20 points isn't a third of the cost of a Leman Russ, or I'm playing the wrong army
point drops and rises dont work like that in GW games . And by the way IG already has an lemman like that and it is never used , guess the sarcasm got missed somewhere.


Whatever mental armies may come out of this Codex to start will probably end up getting nerfed and become insignificant in a few months.
So you want to tell me that it would be ok for chaos player getting a few months of good dex for the 5+years of crappy dex ? And to do master class conversions you dont need a new dex, all you need is some sculpting skills .

[Caitsidhe]

true . this is again the question of . Do you want a unit of terminator costed +3sv dudes that do hth . We had that before possessed/hth chosen vs zerkers.

Exactly my point. Chosen had a job before and I wasn't the only one that used them. The last three Ardboyz (and I know some just can't stand that competition) I competed in saw them in regular use by CSM players. The five man squad (all with Meltas) coming in from Outflank in a Rhino were standard practice. That was a niche no other unit in our book could fill. They were worth the cost for that purpose.

I just don't see much point in them as close combat contenders when we have far more effective troops. I am waiting for the book to confirm a few things, but right now all the DV Chosen I picked up are likely to be converted to really nice looking OTHER units. They might even get magnetized so I can use them with my Chapterhouse Heresy Era Jets. I think they would make FINE Raptors or the supercharged version.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

This stuff all looks like so much damn fun.

I'm excited! I broke out my unpainted, unassembled Chaos Lord with axe from like ten years ago 'specially.

[Big_jon]

I don't get all the whining in this thread? From where I am sitting Chaos it being buffed by quite a bit, and the BS about being OP or UP, I am pretty sure it will take months before we can say any of that to be sure.

Marks are better, Icons mean that you can buff guys even more with some pretty good ****.

Chosen are no longer able to spam melta? Parking lots are a thing of the past and you have Oblitirators and so much more for that, hell even Heavy bolters, which I will be running four havocs with them a fair bit can take out light armour now, and will be cheaper to boot!

Dreads/Hellbrutes are better now

Characters are all better while being less points from the rumours.

Possible Hatret vs Marines

Everything is cheaper almost

Deamon engines are insane!

Marks and Icons are better, before you got a re-role for Icon of Chaos glory, now you're fearless, before +1A for MOK, now you can have Terminators with Counter charge, re-rolling assault distances, Rage, Furious charge, AND +1 on Combat Resolution. I mean come on people!

Cry me a river people.

[the jeske]

I don't get all the whining in this thread? From where I am sitting Chaos it being buffed by quite a bit, and the BS about being OP or UP, I am pretty sure it will take months before we can say any of that to be sure.

yes of course . because we 6th being so new and fresh we are still waiting for that point in the future when people will find out that shoting and specialy flyers are good in 6th ed. No wait , people knew that as soon as they had reliable leaks about the rule book.


Marks are better, Icons mean that you can buff guys even more with some pretty good ****.
nice for BL players . now what about those legion armies NL or AL or anything non cult . Or worse what about those poor 1ksons shmucks that against got served ?



Chosen are no longer able to spam melta? Parking lots are a thing of the past and you have Oblitirators and so much more for that, hell even Heavy bolters, which I will be running four havocs with them a fair bit can take out light armour now, and will be cheaper to boot!
yes of course , becase in the era of +2 sv being so dominant , having 5 plasma guns , which were also good at knocking down hull points of av12 or lower stuff, was totaly bad .



Everything is cheaper almost
I like the almost part and I hope your doing this per all units from the all dex that are in the new one and not everything that is actualy good. because most good stuff aint cheap and without ATKNF chaos has a huge problem in 6th.










Dreads/Hellbrutes are better now

Characters are all better while being less points from the rumours.

Possible Hatret vs Marines

Deamon engines are insane!

Marks and Icons are better, before you got a re-role for Icon of Chaos glory, now you're fearless, before +1A for MOK, now you can have Terminators with Counter charge, re-rolling assault distances, Rage, Furious charge, AND +1 on Combat Resolution. I mean come on people!

Cry me a river people.









Marks and Icons are better, before you got a re-role for Icon of Chaos glory, now you're fearless, before +1A for MOK, now you can have Terminators with Counter charge, re-rolling assault distances, Rage, Furious charge, AND +1 on Combat Resolution. I mean come on people!
puting the viability of hth terminators aside for a second or assault armies/units as a whole in 6th ed . how many chaos player own mass khorn termintors ? non or very few . this means being forced to buy stuff and not using stuff you already own . no want who already has an army wants to buy another one , specialy when it will cost more then it did when he bought his first one . PMs ? bad . DPs ? ultra bad . oblits ? not bad per se , but there is other stuff to take and they cant get anti flyer upgrades . A chaos player has to buy a whole new army for 6th ed . At the same time his IG friend , buys nothing save for an aegis . His necron friend buys nothing . His GK friend buys nothing etc etc etc . Is it so hard to understand why people may not like that . Specialy as chaos players didnt realy like the codex Thorpe gave them .

[Big_jon]

yes of course . because we 6th being so new and fresh we are still waiting for that point in the future when people will find out that shoting and specialy flyers are good in 6th ed. No wait , people knew that as soon as they had reliable leaks about the rule book.

nice for BL players . now what about those legion armies NL or AL or anything non cult . Or worse what about those poor 1ksons shmucks that against got served ?

yes of course , becase in the era of +2 sv being so dominant , having 5 plasma guns , which were also good at knocking down hull points of av12 or lower stuff, was totaly bad .



I like the almost part and I hope your doing this per all units from the all dex that are in the new one and not everything that is actualy good. because most good stuff aint cheap and without ATKNF chaos has a huge problem in 6th.











puting the viability of hth terminators aside for a second or assault armies/units as a whole in 6th ed . how many chaos player own mass khorn termintors ? non or very few . this means being forced to buy stuff and not using stuff you already own . no want who already has an army wants to buy another one , specialy when it will cost more then it did when he bought his first one . PMs ? bad . DPs ? ultra bad . oblits ? not bad per se , but there is other stuff to take and they cant get anti flyer upgrades . A chaos player has to buy a whole new army for 6th ed . At the same time his IG friend , buys nothing save for an aegis . His necron friend buys nothing . His GK friend buys nothing etc etc etc . Is it so hard to understand why people may not like that . Specialy as chaos players didnt realy like the codex Thorpe gave them .

Are you actuslly say that Plague Marines are now bad becuase of a small point's increase to make them balanced?

Noise marines are getting better, Berzerkers are getting cheaper, and over all better, Thousand sons may have gotten hit I'll admit I didn't look that closely at them but you are pretty focused on the negative while ignoring the positives.

I for one can't wait for this book, and 85% of it is good news to me so far.

And if you are having trouble fighting Terminators with Chaos because of 2+ (Chaos are one of the best CC armies in the game) and it is pretty easy to take marines with plasma rifles, I take two squads with two just about every game, then maybe you should look at the way you build lists.

[BatMarine]

nice for BL players . now what about those legion armies NL or AL or anything non cult . Or worse what about those poor 1ksons shmucks that against got served ?

************************************************** ************************************************** *****
puting the viability of hth terminators aside for a second or assault armies/units as a whole in 6th ed . how many chaos player own mass khorn termintors ? non or very few . this means being forced to buy stuff and not using stuff you already own . no want who already has an army wants to buy another one , specialy when it will cost more then it did when he bought his first one . PMs ? bad . DPs ? ultra bad . oblits ? not bad per se , but there is other stuff to take and they cant get anti flyer upgrades . A chaos player has to buy a whole new army for 6th ed . At the same time his IG friend , buys nothing save for an aegis . His necron friend buys nothing . His GK friend buys nothing etc etc etc . Is it so hard to understand why people may not like that . Specialy as chaos players didnt realy like the codex Thorpe gave them .

As a NL player, call them special equipment, augmetics, combat drugs, etc. A little creativity goes a long way, hell you could even have a squad or two that's fallen, but they're still just so dang useful they still get some field time despite their corruption (Fluff example: Uzas)

Point: there are plenty of examples for a creative player as long as you have a way to mark it (a piece of paper, or laminated coin with the symbol could work if you don't want to model it, and then you're able to change it out as well. I'd have no hesitation calling +1 initiative the dirty fighting bonus of night lords rather than a Slaanesh worship, as long as there are signifiers.

As for buying a whole new army for the edition... The edition actually doesn't have much to do with it, it's a new codex that's the cause, and you can't tell me that at a new codex it's not normal to need new stuff. I own Dark Eldar, Tyranids, and Necrons, and I can assure you there were some new units (in Necrons especially) and a lot of old stuff went to the wayside (Carnifexes for example) and in two of those cases (Necrons and Dark Eldar) the codices were so old they were re-made nearly from the ground up, with a TON of models being replaces (Taloi) or being completely left out of the army (Pariahs).

So complaining that you have to buy new stuff for a new codex release (which contains units you don't/can't own yet) is a little bit silly don't you think? This is a new codex, with a more flexible and balanced (Internally at least) set of choices. We should welcome it as the change Chaos needs right now, even if it's not the one it deserves.

[Learn2Eel]

this isnt WFB there is no charge redirection in w40k and with first blood in taking weak easy to kill troops is a recipy for disaster . One could of course take an aegis and play it IG style , but without orders to get up and without weapon teams or at least plasma guns , it makes little sense game wise to take cultists.

realy ? a hth army is just as adaptable to any game as scyth wing or IG lists . at how many points played does that start to happen and how tall/windowless the LoS! terrain has to be for that to happen




Maybe if he was an eldar.



what do you mean by most ? all imperials battle brother SW save for GK . eldar tau and dark eldar run either priests or seers . the only ones that dont is chaos [pre new dex] , necron[dont need it] and nids[cant , but technicly have shadow] and am not a math person , but am sure that avarge out of 3d6 is 11.

feel no pain.

A chaos powers are still worse then rule book P-school
B we still dont have a hood and cant run RP/seers like almost everyone else
C biomancy for chaos is win more . now if fiends or the dragon could get psyker level 1 with mark of tzeench it would be different.



he doesnt . on both counts + again high cost HQ that has to be run in weaker versions of LR isnt realy a boost.



and they you notice they are flyers and you cant hit them in melee.




ill drop the cost of a lemman russ by 20 pts but switcht the gun to str7 ap 4 . how offten will it see use ?


2 different set of warlord traits. one of psykers and one for non psykers [pirate prince , autarch , phoenix lords. asur dude roll 2 times] . avatar cant roll on the warlord table and cant be the army general :( .

It makes little sense to take Cultists? They are meat-shields that can be quite nasty if left unattended on the charge. Against other light infantry, and even heavier infantry, they could do quite a bit of damage on the charge. They are also cheap as chips, and can get some crazy buffs. How about being Fearless, or having Furious Charge, or Feel No Pain, or being Plague Zombies? In any case, thanks for making an assumption based on little facts.

Ok, if you actually knew what you were talking about, you would know that HtH armies are still viable, but, as is the case with 6th edition, you have to work them differently. You have to think more clearly about charge distance, overwatch (i.e using cheap meat-shields to soak up overwatch), transport and what not. Yes, they aren't as great as they used to be, but it is all about making them work. It just so happens that the top armies at the moment shoot better than anyone else (exluding poor Tau) per point.

Umm, I don't understand the comment. What difference does it make if he is an Eldar?

Ok, do you not understand that I was specifically talking about CODEXES and not ALLIES? If you understand that, then you see my point. Not everyone does an obligatory mini-alliance with Space Wolves or Eldar for psychic defence. Nids can't? What? They have a similar psychic defence to Eldar, it just doesn't affect an entire board. Nids do it better than everyone except Eldar and Space Wolves. The average is 10 or 11, yes. I was being a bit of a numpty and forgot that you can't roll less than 2.

Yeah ok, and I already said that was a bit of a nerf. But when you realize that, within their own codex, they were OP, it makes sense. It also makes sense from a fluff perspective. And as I have said on numerous occasions, the codex is stronger on the whole and you get different toys to compensate. A Nurgle Daemon Prince in the new rules will be much harder to kill from anti-tank fire, that's for sure. You also get more codex psychic powers. If you complain about the Feel No Pain nerf then you are probably quite happy to have a unit that is clearly much better than all the rest in what is supposed to be the core of themed lists. I'm sorry, but that's wrong.

A) It's easy to judge based on the powers alone. The fact of the matter is that, like with Eldar or Space Wolves, the powers in the BRB might sound better but the codex powers for those races work better for them. I would also say that is the case with Grey Knights and Mephiston, amongst others. The fact you are also ignoring is that the new powers are a lot better than the previous ones, and open the way for some more interesting builds. Yes, you get them randomly, but you also don't have to pay the points for them anymore. I'd say that is a big win, especially considering we are going to be getting Grey Knight styled Mastery Level goodness (lots of 2s and 3s potentially). How about you wait and see how they synergize with the army list first? Again, S3 marines against T5 Nurgle marines = insane profit.
B) Ok then, now tell me what new psychic defence we have in the book? Hmm? That's right, we don't know yet for sure. Stop whining about something you don't know about yet. We do know Khorne lists will be getting better psyker defence than most codexes. You should know that hoods aren't that crash hot anymore. Your psyker can count as being in a unit for DtW purposes that is 6" away. Not that great. Who cares? How much do you need psyker defence anyway? I'm sorry that not all of us do min/max lists with the mini Eldrad/Pathfinders contingent.
C) I really have no idea what you are trying to say here. I assume from your second sentence that you are saying this isn't worth much. I'm going to sit here and laugh. You do realize Daemon Princes will be able to take Biomancy now right? Oh, and we can put more psykers on the board, all of them good in combat, than a lot of other armies. We also have access to one of the better combat psykers (Typhus) in the game - whether he gets access to non-Nurgle powers is debatable.

What? Have you seen the codex? Please inform us what Ahriman and all the other characters do, because we want to know. How about this - in the current rules, he does so. He auto-passes psychic tests except for his force weapon, and is also immune to Perils of the Warp. It says so pretty clearly in his rules. Now tell me, how do you they are changing that? Land Raider or Deep-Strike, what does it matter? You put him with Terminators in a Land Raider. We might not get better capacity like Loyalists do, but four Terminators with Typhus can still dish out a pouding. Loyalists usually use Land Raiders to deliver Terminator HQs as well. I don't see the relevance. Also, how do you know his points cost? He could be much cheaper for all we know and still be more useful. Again, you know nothing and are twisting all of your assumptions to be negative.

That is a stupid comment. Really? Dropping a Leman Russ by 20 points for a S7 AP4 gun? Really? Fine, tell me how everything is WORSE then.

[Learn2Eel]

because the DT has no idea how to balance MC , so the safer way it to make vehicles out of everything and nerfed the DP in to non viable . they did the same with ctan in the necron book . And we are going to be waiting years for a nid one .

and GK ? well the problem with Ward desing is that , if he thinks stuff should be powerful [to a edition destroying level] , he will do it . He doesnt have any "I may be taking this to far" build in like H-man or Chambers had [H-man actualy removed some rules for IW , in the first version of the dex they had dread squadrons for example].


true . this is again the question of . Do you want a unit of terminator costed +3sv dudes that do hth . We had that before possessed/hth chosen vs zerkers.



ah and before anyone says , am dissing the codex. I love it . For example in my version the eye of the god table roll that improves the save by +1 doesnt have the "to a maximum of +2" in it.So behold the +1 sv terminator armor/warpsmith. I realy wish they gave lords/sorc an option to get a chaos rune/artificer power armor .


point drops and rises dont work like that in GW games . And by the way IG already has an lemman like that and it is never used , guess the sarcasm got missed somewhere.


So you want to tell me that it would be ok for chaos player getting a few months of good dex for the 5+years of crappy dex ? And to do master class conversions you dont need a new dex, all you need is some sculpting skills .

Umm, how do you know that's what they did? You do realize most armies don't even have access to a monstrous creature right? Now I'm start to get really annoyed. How do you KNOW the Daemon Prince has been nerfed so as to be non-viable? You DON'T know! Wait to see the damn codex! The only thing we know is that Marks for Daemon Princes work differently now; Khorne ones get Furious Charge, Nurgle ones get Shrouding and Slow and Purposeful, Tzeentch ones can re-roll all saving throws of 1, and Slaanesh ones get Fleet, Rending and +3" additional Run movement. Rumours say they are more expensive base, and pay more for wings to put them more in the price bracket of Hive Tyrants. But, the same rumours also say their statline is better than it was. Until you know, how in the hell can you say they have been nerfed to hell, let alone being un-viable? Does your mind not understand the difference between fact and conjecture? We don't know most of the facts, yet you somehow already know the Daemon Prince is no longer competitive? Also, I find your C'Tan comment quite funny. How are C'Tan Shards not viable, exactly? You pay the points for a crazy monstrous creature. I've seen lots of competitive lists featuring one of them, and there are some nasty combinations for them to boot. Take Orikan and a Writhing Worldscape C'Tan Shard and tell me that isn't nasty - it was in 5th Edition, and it is still a good tactic in 6th. Everyone knows how powerful they are, which is why they are massive fire magnets - something monstrous creatures do well. And they are also tougher than most - T7 and a +4 invulnerable isn't as good against S4 AP5 as T6 +3 armour, but you can't be hurt by S3 and you are more resistant to AT weaponry.

Wow, they've changed Chosen around. Gee. What a massive nerf to the codex that we can't take 5 man units with 3-4 special weapons that Outflank. That was the old codex, where most of our AT firepower came from short-range shooting, much like Grey Hunters. Ok. Explain to me why the entire codex still functions that way when we have several more long-range options for our AT, such as Forgefiends and Hellbrutes (who are now much better in that role due to not being able to shoot friendly units). This is another case of the changing style of the codex. You have to accept that we can't take units for the same purpose anymore. There were always going to be big changes, especially to some particular units. It means Chaos players have to rethink how we write our army lists. Also, how exactly are they terminator-costed? I don't understand how 15-18 points equates to +30 points per model? Good work.

You love the codex so much you are taking so much time to break down the posts of anyone that thinks we are getting some good buffs based on what we have seen whilst making assumptions of your own about the viability and usefulness of units when you don't now the points values or a lot of the rules and wargear options. Uh-huh. We do have Fleshmetal now, but as to who can take it, no-one knows yet.
Which one isn't used? The Punisher? Or the Executioner? I've seen them used quite a bit.

[Learn2Eel]

yes of course . because we 6th being so new and fresh we are still waiting for that point in the future when people will find out that shoting and specialy flyers are good in 6th ed. No wait , people knew that as soon as they had reliable leaks about the rule book.

nice for BL players . now what about those legion armies NL or AL or anything non cult . Or worse what about those poor 1ksons shmucks that against got served ?

yes of course , becase in the era of +2 sv being so dominant , having 5 plasma guns , which were also good at knocking down hull points of av12 or lower stuff, was totaly bad .



I like the almost part and I hope your doing this per all units from the all dex that are in the new one and not everything that is actualy good. because most good stuff aint cheap and without ATKNF chaos has a huge problem in 6th.











puting the viability of hth terminators aside for a second or assault armies/units as a whole in 6th ed . how many chaos player own mass khorn termintors ? non or very few . this means being forced to buy stuff and not using stuff you already own . no want who already has an army wants to buy another one , specialy when it will cost more then it did when he bought his first one . PMs ? bad . DPs ? ultra bad . oblits ? not bad per se , but there is other stuff to take and they cant get anti flyer upgrades . A chaos player has to buy a whole new army for 6th ed . At the same time his IG friend , buys nothing save for an aegis . His necron friend buys nothing . His GK friend buys nothing etc etc etc . Is it so hard to understand why people may not like that . Specialy as chaos players didnt realy like the codex Thorpe gave them .

Alright, cool. Your point being? We have the capacity for shooty lists. Our basic Chaos Space Marines are quite similar to Grey Hunters - cheap, can do shooting and charges pretty well, and our Chaos Marines also have the potential to get Counter-Attack, like Grey Hunters, as well as Rage. It also makes me laugh that Chaos is called a combat army that doesn't do shooting well. In my local meta, my Chaos army does shooting very well. I've only played Chaos for a year, but I know intrinsically how to write good army lists for them. And it doesn't always involve Plague Marines/Lash Princes/Obliterators. I actually don't even make use of any of them, and I still make viable lists for local play. Why? I know what works, and I also know what I am doing. The reality you can't seem to accept is that having a good army list is fun and all, but it doesn't compare to knowing how to use it. The exception being flyer-spam.
You say it is obvious flyers and shooting are central to competitive 6th edition play in response to someone talking about how we don't know about the codex yet. Do you realize how foolish that is?
First off - we've got a flyer, and judging by all reports - and I mean all - it is going to be one of the most brutal flyer-hunters around, and one that will also be able to put the pain on ground units. We don't know for sure, but we actually do have a flyer. So I don't understand your comment at all. And secondly, again, how do you know we are bad at shooting exactly? You don't know jack about the codex and points costs. We could put out more long-range firepower than Psyflemen-spam lists could ever hope for. We don't know yet. So please, stop whining and wait for the codex before you make such ridiculous judgements.

How exactly are non-Black Legion players getting the bad end of the stick? How the hell do you know that? You DON'T know! Those Night Lords that got a new type of Raptor that look like interesting units, or those Alpha Legion players that got Cultists? What do those non-cult units get again? Let's see, you can mix-match marks and icons however you want to make the most out of 'competitive' options, take lots of new options that we didn't have before, have cheaper Chaos Space Marines, have characters with loads of customization potential, grant Fearless to a unit, and so on. Did I mention the new long-range firepower options we are getting? What about the flyer? Or the close-combat Obliterators? Yes, Undivided players aren't getting anything good at all. Nope, not a thing. And those poor Thousand Sons you don't know the points cost for? How did they get shafted exactly? From what the WD has shown us, we are getting; 1) better psychic powers, 2) better BRB powers, 3) the addition of Soul Blaze, 4) wargear to re-roll psychic tests, 5) mastery level 3 and 4 psykers. Where did we get shafted? Pull out your codex and tell me how they are more expensive and what they've lost.

Laughable. You know, +2 save is nowhere near as dominant as people make it out to be. Terminators have always fallen to the same thing that any codex has; lots and lots of dakka. That has always been the best way to kill them, AP2 or no. Sheer amounts of saves has always been more efficient than smaller numbers of AP2 weapons. That Chosen squad might kill the Terminators quickly, but how expensive and fragile are the Chosen as well? And how obvious a target are they for your opponent? A 10-man squad of Chaos Space Marines with two meltaguns or plasma guns will do it for cheaper and do it well too. No one is saying Chosen were bad in that role, but I never used them and was fine for AT. We have different options now, i.e. the Forgefiend. We now have more long-range firepower and other AT methods so we don't have to rely on said Chosen units, who now have a different role.

What? I don't get it. Rumours say most things are the codex are cheaper. Now explain to me why that also means they must have been nerfed even though from what we can tell everything is getting a boost (bar Plague Marines). But that's the funny thing - perhaps Plague Marines retain Feel No Pain? Who knows, because most rumours said they still do. Again, it's unlikely it seems, but we don't know for sure. If they've lost Feel No Pain, it means they've gotten something in return - aside from Fear. Again, wait and see. They are probably cheaper too. Now you aren't making sense. How do you KNOW that our good stuff won't be cheap? Grey Hunters are cheap, and entire army lists are built around spamming them! How do you know it won't be the same for our codex? How do you know that a range of competitive options aren't going to emerge? How do you know what units are effective and what aren't? Please give us this codex, we want it know! I wonder, how does not having ATSKNF provide a massive problem for us? Have you seen what our basic icon does? Have you also seen how the Fearless rules work now? Trust me, not having that is not as big a weakness as you claim, considering we can give Fearless to any squad that can take an Icon or doesn't have it already (of which lots of units in our old codex did). Yes, ATSKNF is great, but Fearless is quite good in 6th edition too.

Again. I must ask. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT UNITS IN THE CODEX ARE BAD WHEN YOU HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET.
How do you know Plague Marines are bad?
How do you know Daemon Princes are 'ultra bad'?
How do you know Obliterators aren't useful because they can't take anti-flyer upgrades? Yeah, those mean Obliterators that were spammed in the old codex, are getting Assault Cannons and we don't know all the changes for.
Give me a break.
Also, how do you Khorne Terminators won't be viable now? Considering they can get Rage, Counter Attack and Furious Charge, why exactly will they not be used? Combat terminators are still effective. Ones that get +2 attacks on the charge and +1 if you charge them as well as S5 on the charge would be pretty scary in anyone's book. Terminators that put out loads of attacks? Who wouldn't want that exactly?

Well. Ok. You've just made one of the most ridiculous points I have ever seen. You are complaining that a Chaos player has to buy a new army for 6th Edition, but an Imperial Guard player or Necron player doesn't. Ok.
Let's look at the differences between those three armies, shall we?
Let's see;
Necrons and Imperial Guard - no new codex in 6th Edition
Chaos Space Marines - new codex in 6th Edition

Ummm.......
NEW CODEX DEMANDS NEW ARMY. Are you for real!? Chaos Space Marines are getting REDONE. Necrons and Imperial Guard AREN'T. Hence why Chaos players will buy new armies, and Necrons/Imperial Guard won't! I put 'NEW CODEX DEMANDS NEW ARMY' in Bold, Italics and Underlined it for your convenience. You know what happened when Necrons were redone? Entirely new armies were bought to fit the rules, because running Monolith/Warrior phalanxes with a C'Tan no longer worked like it used to. Now they have lots of new toys and due to the balancing of the codex entire armies have changed. Now explain to me why adjusting the army list and adding a host of new options won't also lead to completely revamped Chaos Space Marines army lists. I'm waiting.
Also, by the way, you say Necron and Imperial Guard players didn't buy new armies, yet you also go on and on about flyers being king in 6th. You do realize a large number of Necron armies are now flyer-spam armies? You do also realize a large number of Imperial Guard armies are now Vendetta-spam armies? I think that sounds like they bought new armies, doesn't it?

Really.....I can't believe what I am reading. Seriously. Lol.
I can't wait to see what the Eldar re-release will be like. Everyone will complain about how they are even worse one month in advance and cry for days because GW isn't making new OP codexes, ones they haven't seen yet.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Well I will definitly be buying that Aspiring Champion, like it even more now I can see the 360 ect. I think for the rest I'll ebay the DV Chosen and Helbrutes and convert the cultists (have a specific look for them).

[Learn2Eel]

Well I will definitly be buying that Aspiring Champion, like it even more now I can see the 360 ect. I think for the rest I'll ebay the DV Chosen and Helbrutes and convert the cultists (have a specific look for them).

I think I will too, but I'm not sure where'd I'd put him lol.
Doing a themed list? A lot of people are going to be very happy with Cultists, especially Nurgle players methinks. Plague Zombies anyone? Especially considering Plague Xombies have been confirmed IIRC. I'm thinking I will use them in my Thousand Sons as Prospero Guard, but whether I use cultist rules or guardsmen rules is the question I guess.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Yeah, i'm really glad they brought back Cultists - theres way too many things you can do with them. I will probably sculpt my cultists actually, as I want them to be non-humanoid aliens that have fallen to the dark powers, plus I want my Chaos marines to have a lovecraftian theme that isnt cthulhu-based.

[isotope99]

Instant reactions:

Codex Limited edition: Never understood the need for a collectors edition of something that will either get wear and tear through use or be made redundant, but if you have the cash it's not like it's compulsory.

Codex: The new hardback codices are nicer, but the price is at a point where I'd want to be certain I was doing an army before I bought it and wouldn't buy it to read or do opposition research. I don't know if the price is putting off new hobbyists but the start-up costs for 40K are extreme these days.

Psychic cards: A nice optional extra. Overpriced of course, but not compulsory.

Helldrake: I like it a bit better from the 360 on the GW site but I still think I'd want to convert it into something closer to the helltalon rather than the OTT dragon design: 6.5/10

Fiend: Not really liking the example setups that much but the sheer number of options means it should be easy to get a combo of parts that does suit: 8.5/10

Raptors: These are really great. Loses a point for the warp talon 'wings' and teeth in the jet intakes but overall very positive. 9/10

Aspiring champion: Love this kit, loads of great detail and goes really well with the DV kits. Shame they couldn't squeeze on a few weapon/head options for the price though. 9/10

Finecast mutilators: Oh dear, was hoping for a plastic combo obliterator kit but these guys take the obliterator design and make it worse from the bad face-lift heads to the poorly detailed claws. 4/10 {aside, nice price drop for 3 pack of obliterators}

Finecast sorceror: Boring compared to the other options and expensive compared to the thousand sons upgrade kit. Never liked the loining together of the horns either. 6/10

Finecast Dark apostle: A little OTT and I'm not sure about the angled halo or the head but very dynamic and would make a great alternative sorceror. 7.5/10

Finecast warpsmith: Cluttered, I sympathise with the designer's desire to cram lots of cool pieces into it but there is a bit too much going on here. Easy to scale back though and provides lots of cool parts, just disappointed not done as plastic clampack: 8.5/10

Finecast conversions: Not going to comment on these individually, as usual there are some where they look good and OK value as indicated above and some not so much. Worst pic is this one, armed with knuckledusters instead of lightning claws:

aww, they fixed it now. Still looks a bit dodgy with that trophy rack though

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2610280a_99800102012_CSMLordwithJumpCFC01_873x627 .jpg

[Flammenwerfer13]

No those are lighting claws, just a horrible photoshop that covered up the claws

[BatMarine]

I can't believe they made that mistake. I reloaded like three times to check, and sure enough, still got a manicure (You can still see his right ring finger!)

[DrBored]

When GW figures out their little Photoshop mistake, I'm sure they'll correct it. That's pretty bad, after all :P

Anyway. Excited to see the 360 views at last. Really helps get a feel for the models and all the details. The more I look at the Raptors, the happier I am with them. I'm actually thinking of converting them into assaulty Noise Marines. They'd fit the bill very well, and some of the bits in there are just TOO AWESOME. Those chainswords and that melta gun are simply the best examples of those weapons that I've ever seen!

Looking at the Heldrake... The first images I saw I loved. Now.. I'm not so sure. The feet on the back don't do anything for me, so I'll probably have to convert that somehow, into stabilizer flaps or something. Something that isn't derpy little clawfeet. There was a rumor about the Heldrake having options to make it look like a beast of different gods, but I'm not seeing those in the image... Oh well. I'll probably try and swap out the head, raise the wings to a level level, change the feet, and position it farther back on the base than they did in the pictures, and then it should be good.

[daboarder]

Not sure if its been mentioned, but looking at the online codex photo's in the for sale section you can read the oblit and Mutil entries in the codex.

Oblits still have Power fists confirmed,

Mutils actually have SnP.....BWHAHAHAHA LAME!

[DrBored]

Not sure if its been mentioned, but looking at the online codex photo's in the for sale section you can read the oblit and Mutil entries in the codex.

Oblits still have Power fists confirmed,

Mutils actually have SnP.....BWHAHAHAHA LAME!

Thank goodness Slow and Purposeful isn't rolling a d6 for movement any more...

[Learn2Eel]

Not sure if its been mentioned, but looking at the online codex photo's in the for sale section you can read the oblit and Mutil entries in the codex.

Oblits still have Power fists confirmed,

Mutils actually have SnP.....BWHAHAHAHA LAME!

Where? I've looked through the White Dwarf and can't find what you are talking about.

But yes, in the small text for the pictured Elites section part of the Codex, it appears 'Slow and Purposeful' is indeed a Mutilator special rule. I guess that explains why they are only 35 points each.
However, when you think about, it isn't all that bad. You are still more than likely going to roll a 3-4 or higher for movement. Considering you get a pair of power axes, chainfists, power sword, power mauls or lightning claws each round (IIRC) then that's not shabby at all. A cheap 110 point squad of three will draw lots of firepower from your opponent, whilst being deadly in combat. They are S4 and T4, with 2 attacks base. They also have 2 wounds each and 2 attacks base (4 on the charge (extra CCW)). They sound quite good to me. They can also take Marks, and it looks like the Marks are cheap - it is only single digits for the points cost of a Mark on Mutilators, but I think it is per model. Imagine the possibilities. Rage and Counter-Attack for 5 attacks each on the charge - that's as many attacks as 5 Terminators on the charge! Mark of Nurgle to make them Toughness 5. Mark of Tzeentch to give them a +4 invulnerable save. Mark of Slaanesh to give them +1 Initiative. They seem brutal.

Got the White Dwarf this morning by the way. Here are my thoughts;

1) Price has stayed the same, and yet it is a newer, stylish and vibrant look. Also including a free poster. Yay!
2) The Heldrake only has one gun apparently, but it is good. A S6 AP3 template weapon that functions like a Dreadknight's Heavy Incinerator (Torrent USR). Woah. You can switch it out for a Hades Autocannon I presume. And I assume the Meteoric Strike rule (vector strike at S7 when Zooming) is what the Heldrake has. By the looks of it, you'll never want to switch to Hover with this thing. Fly on, Vector Strike and potentially destroy (or at least force an Evade or damage) on a flyer, then toast an entire unit. Sounds good to me. In the battle report, the Heldrake almost single-handedly saved the game for the Chaos player.
3) The triple-ectoplasm cannon (S8 AP2 Blast) Forgefiend is indeed 200 points according to the Battle Report army lists. It makes we wonder how expensive it is with the Hades Autocannons. 200 points is steep for a walker, but given the firepower and potential damage it could do, it's not that bad. It did badly in the Battle Report (bad dice rolls mostly).
4) Cultists are cheap as....you catch my drift. 20 of them with a pair of CCW and two flamers costs 100 points on the dot. Not as excessively cheap as they were in the leaked draft copy, but still very good value. Necrons with Gauss wanting to Overwatch my Maulerfiend? Sorry, Overwatch the Cultists instead. Also, assuming they are 1 attack base, a unit of 20 will still put out 60 attacks on the charge at WS3 S3. That is decent. I can lots of Cultists being used in lists. Fearless blobs will be fun, especially given they can apparently take Icons (the leaked document said Icons, not Marks). In either case, if it is Icons, woah. Furious Charge turns them into Ork Boyz (with one less attack each) on the charge. Soul Blaze....meh. Fear? Lol. Feel No Pain? :eek: If it is Marks, woah. Rage and Counter Attack for 5 attacks each on the charge? All of them getting a +5 invulnerable save? All of them being Toughness 4 (effectively Ork Boyz)? All of them being Initiative 4? It wouldn't surprise me if they can only take the Icon that makes them Fearless, to be honest.

5) The Forgefiend and Maulerfiend are Tervigon-sized, i.e. huge. But the biggest one by far is the Heldrake. That thing's wing span is (and yes, it says so in the magazine) longer than a Storm Raven. The Heldrake is titanic, in a certain image it makes a Defiler look tiny by comparison (exaggeration). All three are great new models.
6) Finecast re-releases for all characters! Yay! Also, the pre-heresy paint scheme for Ahriman in the Rulebook was carried over here. Guess they are embracing his outcast status now.
7) In AUD, a box of Mutilators or Obliterators is $83, compared to totaling about $123 for buying three metal Obliterators. Great improvement, especially given how much easier resin is for models as big as they are.
8) According to the magazine, Daemon Princes are more powerful than they used to be. This correlates with the rumoured price hike.
9) A Chaos Lord with a plasma pistol and power weapon in the old codex is 120 points. In the Battle Report, a Chaos Lord with the same equipment, plus Gift of Mutation (a free roll on the Boon chart before deployment), Veteran of the Long War (Hatred: Space Marines, +1 Leadership), and Aura of Dark Glory (I assume it is the rumoured 12" Fearless bubble) is 125. Points cost drops abound! A Warpsmith with Mechatendrils and a Power Axe is also 110, which given what they can do seems to be a bargain.

For those talking about the Battle Report;
Yes, Chaos loses. However, don't take that to mean the codex must be bad. Looking at the army lists, and what both players said, the point of the game was to test out the new Daemon Engines and other units by taking one of each where possible, not actually write a good army list using the new units. The Chaos player did some silly stuff, and also had terrible luck with the dice (his Forgefiend overheated on both Ectoplasm cannons on the first turn). It is a very fun Battle Report and was very, very close. The Chaos player was unlucky not to win.
Also a very funny quip from Phil Kelly to the Chaos player in the Battle Report along the lines of "Real men take Daemon Weapons". :D

[daboarder]

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440160a&prodId=prod1740029a

and it looks more like they are 55 from what I can read

That being said I see a lot of potential for gaminess with the Mutils, IE: charge use mauls to ensure no overkill, then splat with your choice of claws of fists.


Thank goodness Slow and Purposeful isn't rolling a d6 for movement any more...

OH RIGHT, DURP!!

Still no running means their getting no where fast unless DS

edit: The same page shows that Mutils and Oblits are only S/T4

Wonder who the T5, character in the elites section summary is? I think its a champion of some sort.
Oh right its the plague marine champion which makes the one below, straight up plague marines, that explains the I3 as well.

Looks like dark apostles are HQ's as well, line 5 of the german summary, shoots down yet another life saving rumour that suggested they were bought as 1-3 pre elites and could help cultify other units....fail kelly fail

[Learn2Eel]

Ah good find. My mistake, it looked like they were S5 T5 in the small text.

Still, the page also confirms that Obliterators and Mutilators no longer have Terminator armour (they have Fleshmetal), so they can Sweeping Advance. They are instead Daemons, Deep Strike, Bulky.
WOAH!
You can transport Obliterators and Mutilators now by the looks of things! They aren't Terminators, they are just Bulky.
Obliterators are still Relentless due to Slow and Purposeful. Being Daemons means both units cause Fear, are Fearless and have +5 invulnerable saves. Also, Deep Striking seems to be the way to go for Mutilators - move up with your icon-bearers, then teleport the Mutilators in.

Obliterators sound a bit better. You get -1 Leadership (but they are Fearless anyway) and cause Fear. As well, you now get Assault Cannons and apparently can be transported. Hopefully their price goes down a bit too. Given the cost of Mutilators, I think the 65 bracket would make sense.

About the Dark Apostle.....
I dunno. It seems weird that we have so many HQs; we already have seven special characters, plus three standard ones and the Warpsmith, why another one? Lots of choice I guess.
If the Dark Apostle is a HQ it probably means they provide big buffs for your army. From memory, they allow Chaos Daemons to deep strike off of your Icons or something.

[daboarder]

No sweep with SnP

And the DA sits right under the daemon prince in the german summary, unless the germans use "apostle" for their translation of sorcerer.

But I can't really see anything in the elites that would seem appropriate for the apostle, most of the elites are the cults and their relevant champions.

https://picasaweb.google.com/108370529345394006791/19September2012?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCPW8xfK5m4yn7QE&feat=directlink#5790254666792166210

Infact it looks like SORCERERS are in the elite section with "hexxer" in the first line, though I'm willing to bet that is the aspiring sorcerer from the thousand sons.

Yep found hexxer in the HQ section 7th down, 2W.....looks like chaos got the shaft again.

So Confirmation: Sorcerer, 2 Wounds, HQ
Dark apostle, 3 Wounds, HQ
No 2W terminators

Spawn: Still fast attack, looks to have 3 Wounds.

Oblits and Havoc;s only non-vehicle heavy support

Easy to pick out we have Abbadon's stats:
7/5/4/5/4/6/4/10

Typhus:
6/5/4/5/4/5/3/10

Looking at the vehciles we can also pick out the land raider, vindicator, predator and rhino

As such we can Confirm that the daemon engines are all 12/12/10

Interestingly SOMEONE is getting a flamestorm cannon, wonder who?

Reapers are still apparently stuck at S7 2 shots twin-linked, here's hoping they are FAR cheaper.

And from the looks of it the GW legal team just swung into action, page down folks

[Learn2Eel]

I forgot about that. Eh, not that it makes a difference I think. They are still awesome. I wouldn't mind taking some with the Mark of Khorne for shreddy goodness. Three pairs of chainfists will waste any tank in the game for a measly 110 points, and the equivalent number of lightning claws or power axes/mauls will do similarly against infantry.

Two wound Sorcerer Lords? How is that getting shafted? Come on dude, it just means our psykers are now in line with every other Space Marine codex. All Loyalists ones have 2 wounds. The Sorcerer Lord will obviously be cheaper than he was, especially given we won't have to pay for psychic powers anymore.
The Dark Apostle is 3 wounds? Unsurprising, he isn't intended to be a mini-HQ then.
Guess those recent rumours about Chosen Terminators were bogus, sadly.

Chaos Spawn actually look like they've been improved (lol). With a significant points increase they might feature in a support role (lol).

Hehe. Same stats as before. I guess we won't know until we see his wargear if Abaddon does strike at S10 now.
Also, that page isn't worked for me.

Woah! Typhus is now WS6?
Also, Daemon Engines being 12/12/10....ok. 135 for the Maulerfiend with whip-thingys seems ok, considering you are possessed and have a +5 invulnerable save, cause fear, and move like Beasts, as well as generate S8 AP1 Armourbane automatic hits when your normal attacks hit in combat....Mostly interesting in the base Forgefiend cost though.

As far as the Flamestorm Cannon goes, I don't know. BUT the Heldrake has a S6 AP3 Flamer weapon with the Torrent rule. ;)

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I notice Abaddon isnt "finecasted", hopefully that is a sign he will get a resculpt. It may also be a sign we havent seen everything yet either - 3 kits seems a bit small, so I'm guessing this is the "first half" and they'll be more to come :)

[Learn2Eel]

I notice Abaddon isnt "finecasted", hopefully that is a sign he will get a resculpt. It may also be a sign we havent seen everything yet either - 3 kits seems a bit small, so I'm guessing this is the "first half" and they'll be more to come :)

He's still listed in the magazine though, so I doubt it.
There's definitely more kits to come, no question. We still have Cultists and the Helbrute without models (aside from Dark Vengeance). I also expect some old plastic kits to be redone soon.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I'm curious how they'll go with the Cultists.

Personally? I think they should give them a very different look. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I dislike the DV ones - they are great! but the DV ones kinda have a feeling that these are men who have only quite recently turned to the dark powers, like it's a recent uprising type thing. I think it would be cool if multi-part ones went the other way and had a more "We've had this dark secret cult here for a long time now and now we are rising up" feel to them. That would give people a nice variety IMO.

Curious what a multi-part helbrute would be like as well. I'm guessing they won't do multi-part Chosen, as they seem to like a few things to be "exclusive" to the starters. The Mutilators have a "stopgap" feel to me, so hopefully they'll do (better) plastic Oblits/Mutiliators in the near future too.

[daboarder]

I forgot about that. Eh, not that it makes a difference I think. They are still awesome. I wouldn't mind taking some with the Mark of Khorne for shreddy goodness. Three pairs of chainfists will waste any tank in the game for a measly 110 points, and the equivalent number of lightning claws or power axes/mauls will do similarly against infantry.

Two wound Sorcerer Lords? How is that getting shafted? Come on dude, it just means our psykers are now in line with every other Space Marine codex. All Loyalists ones have 2 wounds. The Sorcerer Lord will obviously be cheaper than he was, especially given we won't have to pay for psychic powers anymore.
The Dark Apostle is 3 wounds? Unsurprising, he isn't intended to be a mini-HQ then.
Guess those recent rumours about Chosen Terminators were bogus, sadly.

Chaos Spawn actually look like they've been improved (lol). With a significant points increase they might feature in a support role (lol).

Hehe. Same stats as before. I guess we won't know until we see his wargear if Abaddon does strike at S10 now.
Also, that page isn't worked for me.

Woah! Typhus is now WS6?
Also, Daemon Engines being 12/12/10....ok. 135 for the Maulerfiend with whip-thingys seems ok, considering you are possessed and have a +5 invulnerable save, cause fear, and move like Beasts, as well as generate S8 AP1 Armourbane automatic hits when your normal attacks hit in combat....Mostly interesting in the base Forgefiend cost though.

As far as the Flamestorm Cannon goes, I don't know. BUT the Heldrake has a S6 AP3 Flamer weapon with the Torrent rule. ;)

Just a caveat, most of this is what I can read from very very blurry german pictures, off the top of my head the 2 things that MAY have been wrong are Typhus's WS and the DA's wounds, I'd re-check the page but looks like GW legal got their first.

I was trying to be carefull about what I typed though so I think that is all accurate.

yeah coulda been the helldrake's breath weapon that I was reading, all I could pci out was the weapon stats and the use of "template" (or atleast the german equivalent)

As to sorcerers, chaos casters have ALWAYS been more combat oriented than others both in fantasy and 40k they have slipped a LONG way from the good old sorcerer lords of 3rd ed.....sigh

[White Tiger88]

So im confused about all the Chosen rumors.....Does Abbadon really make them troops? And if so do "chosen terminators" or what ever the rumor was become troops as well?

[Deadlift]

Has anyone noticed that the thousand sons and noise marine up grade packs amongst others still appear to be metal, they are certainly not advertised on the GW page as finecast. Could this mean a future update to these units could be on the cards.

[Kirsten]

I am sure there will be more in a few weeks, but right now this seems like a pretty lazy release model wise. Rules sound great, very excited to play them, but no no new models for cult troops (maybe berserkers later, but the others just to resin?) all the old characters just becoming resin, obliterators just becoming resin, havocs still a hybrid kit? :/ not impressed really. I don't like to jump on the price whining band wagon usually, but £30 for a codex, new vehicles £40 and £45? not ideal.

Deadlift quite a few of the conversion packs changed to resin without being listed as such, or it being in the small print.

[Bracchus]

Not sure about the new models, the heldrake just looks ugly as sin, and not in a good way.. The Forgefiend looks decent, at least with the "plasma" head thingy. Raptors looks nice, but the warptalon heads is just way too much power rangers for me. Mutilators.. is probably the ugliest sculps I've seen since the obliterators. So no models that I just have to have, this time I'll just get the codex and later just pick up whatever I end up using.

[daboarder]

So im confused about all the Chosen rumors.....Does Abbadon really make them troops? And if so do "chosen terminators" or what ever the rumor was become troops as well?

From what we can tell based upon the scans there are NO 2w terminators, it does not appear in their entry list and it most certainly does not exist in the reference summary at the end of the book.

Abbadon still probably makes chosen troops but really.....there's no reason to want that, they are bad, have no role from what we know that other units wont do better and cheaper.

[Kirsten]

just like to take a moment to ruin the dark apostle miniature for everyone by pointing out that he has very long and blasphemous nipple tassels. Someone needs to replace the crozius with a long pole that touches the ground...

[eldargal]

Now that you mention it, The Eye or Terror does sound suspiciously like a strip club.

[Deadlift]

Now that you mention it, The Eye or Terror does sound suspiciously like a strip club.

Or a curry house specialising in vindaloo.

[eldargal]

So the Cadian pylons could be frozen lavatory rolls, ingenious.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Uh. What.

[The Madman]

Didn't see this on the first post but from the limited edition pics i've gathered this off the Obliteraters and Mutilators.

Obliterator
WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I4 W2 A2 LD8/9 SV2+

Type: Infantry

Wargear: Fleshmetal, Powerfist

Special Rules: Bulky, Daemon, Deep Strike, Slow And Purposeful

Obliterator Weapons:
in each of your shooting phases, you must choose what weapon the Obliterators in the unit will fire from the following list;

Assault Cannon
Heavy Flamers
Lascannon
Multi-melta
Plasma Cannon
Twin-linked Flamers
Twin-linked Meltaguns
Twin-linked Plasma Gun

Every Obliterator in the unit must fire the same weapon. an Obliterator unit cannot choose to fire the same weapon in two of your consecutive Shooting Phases.

Mutilator
WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I4 W2 A2 LD8/9 SV2+

Type: Infantry

Wargear: Fleshmetal

Special Rules: Bulky, Daemon, Deep Strike, Slow And Purposeful

Mutilator Weapons:
if a Mutilator unit is locked in combat at the start of a fight sub-phase, they must choose one of the weapon options from the following list;

A pair of chainfists
A pair of Lightning Claws
A pair of Power Axes
A pair of Power Mauls
A pair of Power Swords

Every Mutilator in the unit must choose the same weapon option. A Mutilator unit cannot choose the same weapon option in two of your consecutive Fight Sub-Phases.

[the jeske]

Interestingly SOMEONE is getting a flamestorm cannon, wonder who?
the dragon.


and the lords/HQs in the WD were run without marks/icons , because with those they dont cost 120pts.

[White Tiger88]

From what we can tell based upon the scans there are NO 2w terminators, it does not appear in their entry list and it most certainly does not exist in the reference summary at the end of the book.

Abbadon still probably makes chosen troops but really.....there's no reason to want that, they are bad, have no role from what we know that other units wont do better and cheaper.

Well so much for that idea of allying terminator spam.......Anyone know if Chosen can even be Given terminator armor?

[daboarder]

Well so much for that idea of allying terminator spam.......Anyone know if Chosen can even be Given terminator armor?

From what we can tel from the scans, they cannot.

They have the option to take 4 Special close combat weapons and ONE! special ranged weapon, that is all.

chosen are limp plain and simple.

[White Tiger88]

From what we can tel from the scans, they cannot.

They have the option to take 4 Special close combat weapons and ONE! special ranged weapon, that is all.

chosen are limp plain and simple.

Well so much for Plan A..........Looks like its chaos Undivided for me, Oh ya anyone know if they changed normal terminators at all?

[daboarder]

Well so much for Plan A..........Looks like its chaos Undivided for me, Oh ya anyone know if they changed normal terminators at all?

From what we can tell from the scans....NO!

No new options, no removed options just the same old, still only one ineffective heavy per 5 men, the reaper hasn't changed. good news is that unless you play nurgle you can pretty much do cult terminators though

[White Tiger88]

From what we can tell from the scans....NO!

No new options, no removed options just the same old, good news is that unless you play nurgle you can pretty much do cult terminators though

Ok that is pretty cool, Not sure who god to use them for though....Thinking khorne since i am allying then with my Death Korps of Krieg to provide some CC help. (Any other god suggestions would be great though lol) Also before i forgot did termys got any cheaper or go up in cost?

[daboarder]

eh this whole thing is really appearing more and more lackluster the more information we get.

Its basically been an exercise in scratching out one cool rumour after another

Mark/icon let you make psuedo cult options -NOPE!

Marks available for vehicles NOPE!

Dark apostles are bought like sanguinary priests NOPE!

[Learn2Eel]

eh this whole thing is really appearing more and more lackluster the more information we get.

Its basically been an exercise in scratching out one cool rumour after another

Mark/icon let you make psuedo cult options -NOPE!

Marks available for vehicles NOPE!

Dark apostles are bought like sanguinary priests NOPE!

Dude, have you seen the rules for Mutilators and the Maulerfiend yet? Yes, the Maulerfiend and Ahriman were leaked over at Faeit 212. Wait and see buddy, we still don't know a whole heap of stuff. We've seen at best a glimpse of the rules.

We don't know the first two as yet mate, and by the way you are definitely wrong on the second one. In the image in the WD showing the Elites section of the codex, it clearly says that the Helbrute can take Marks.
Dark Apostles probably are more powerful than were rumoured if they are a HQ slot. Just like the Warpsmith must be because he too is a HQ.

By the way guys, I've seen the Maulerfiend rules. People over on Faeit are already complaining, but really, only someone that is truly pessimistic would think they are bad rules. They sound amazing to me.

http://natfka.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/ahriman-and-maulerfiends.html

Ok, so we know the points cost of this thing is 135 with the lasher tendrils - I would assume the Lasher Tendrils are a free upgrade on the Magma Cutters.
Now people on the other site are whining that it is too weak and is useless. Let's debunk that right now;

1) It has a 12" MOVEMENT. It has FLEET. It IGNORES difficult terrain, for both movement AND charging. Yeah. Worried about it being blown up first turn because you are going second? Hide it behind a building, then watch your opponent's eyes widen as it moves straight up 12" and gets a first turn charge. You re-roll your charge distance and always charge on 2D6, and move 12" in the movement. That is almost cheesy.
2) It has virtually the same profile as your normal walker; 3 Hull Points, 12, 12, 10 armour. It is however WS3 BS3 I3. But, given what you are suppossed to be sending it at, that doesn't really matter. Now, think about how durable this thing is compared to any other walker in the game. This thing has a +5 invulnerable save. Already, on a walker, that is crazy. This thing REGROWS hull points on a +5 at the end of each turn. Also, you can hide this thing behind terrain for a better cover save and not be affected by moving through it. Being daemonically possessed, it also ignores Shaken and Stunned on a +2. Good luck trying to kill this thing.
3) It has four S10 I3 AP2 attacks on the charge. The magma cutters each grant an additional attack at S8 I1 AP1 Armourbane (2D6 armour pen) if you hit with at least one attack, and two if you hit with all attacks. Now, read the profile carefully. It has two magma cutters. Yeah. Against WS3 to WS6 opponents, you are averaging two hits on the charge, which generates an additional two magma cutter attacks. Oh and by the way? The magma cutter attacks HIT AUTOMATICALLY. This thing also brings the troll out even more by getting +1 on the damage table against Fortifications.
4) Once per game, you can risk losing a hull point on a roll of a 1 to re-roll all to-wound and armour-penetration rolls for that turn.

All of that, for 135 points. If people seriously complain about this, they need their heads checked.
Let's look at what happens to a Land Raider when this thing charges one (with magma cutters);

(Land Raider moved)
Three hits (rounding up). S10 AP2. Averaging one glance and one pen or just one pen. +1 to damage chart so you'll see either an Immobilized or Weapon Destroyed result.
Two hits. S8 AP1 Armourbane. Averaging one pen. +2 on the damage chart so it will probably Explode.

(Land Raider didn't move)
Four hits. S10 AP2. Averaging two glances and a pen or once glance and a pen. +1 to damage chart so you'll see either an Immobilized or Weapon Destroyed result.
Four hits. S8 AP1 Armourbane. Averaging two pens. +2 on the damage chart so it will probably Explode.

I might be off, but you get the gist. A 135 point walker will more than likely destroy a ~250 point Land Raider on the charge. And if you roll badly for your armour-penetration rolls? You can risk losing a hull point to re-roll them.
This thing is crazy. Against infantry it is better than a Defiler used to be (one less hull point, but generates additional attacks and has a +5 invulnerable save) and Defilers were already pretty darn decent against infantry in combat.

Oh, and Ahriman's profile has also been leaked. We have our first confirmed Mastery Level 4 psyker everyone! Hurrah! We can't see the entire profile, but his wargear seems to be the same. He also gets Aura of Dark Glory now, and he can choose his powers from Biomancy, Pyromancy, Telepathy and Tzeentch. And being Mastery Level 4, he knows all Tzeentch powers. I'm quite excited. The Tzeentch powers are a lot better than the old codex powers, and having access to four powers from those three disciplines is nuts. We can also see he can still use three witchfire powers a turn, being the only psyker in the game that can do that. He dishes it out!
Oh, and the rumour saying he allows D3 infantry units to infiltrate is correct. His warlord trait is that particular one. I guess that means each of the special characters has one of the warlord traits in the Chaos table. Awesome! Hopefully Ahriman's points have dropped, I see people saying he is now 230 points. Given the amount of witchfire he puts out, and the much improved powers he puts out......!!!! He also allows multiple units to Infiltrate!

[Learn2Eel]

Had another look at the Maulerfiend's rules. Though vehicles are your priority, this thing will still chew through infantry better than any Loyalist Dreadnought (barring the Furioso obviously). 3 attacks base will lead to 1 or 2 hits on average against WS3-WS6 infantry. As soon as you hit with one attack, if you keep the magma cutters you get an additional 2 S8 AP1 automatic hits. Crazy. You are looking at 3-4 dead marines, even if you don't charge. And if you get lucky and hit with all your normal attacks? That's 6 dead marines on average. This thing sounds better and better every-time I look at its rules. And it is crazy durable for a walker too. 135 points!

Also, Mutilators are looking great. For 35 points, you are a 2 wound Terminator with Slow and Purposeful that causes Fear, essentially. You also get the benefit of choosing either a pair of chainfists, a pair of lightning claws, a pair of power swords, a pair of power mauls or a pair of power axes each turn. Who else think that is awesome value? A three-man unit is 105 points, the same as a basic Helbrute. Run two three-man units, perhaps with the Mark of Nurgle to shrug off instant-death from all but S10, and profit. Either your opponent wastes their shooting at a very durable and very deadly unit that is only 105 points (without a Mark) or they ignore them and then bite their lip as the Mutilators crush something in combat - either blending a Tactical squad, or annihilating a vehicle, etc.

Really liking the sounds of this codex. The fact that there are two melee-only units that are fantastic value from what we can see already is a big reason to get excited. In our old codex, we didn't have anything that was cost-effective like that for melee purposes. As much as it would be a far-cry from my old Chaos lists, I am really considering running two three-man Mutilators units and a pair of Maulerfiends - it is a great sign, and it really seems to indicate the breadth of options we will now have.

Also, good news on the Forgefiend front - potentially.
Remember how I said Tastytaste's rumours have been very accurate so far? He listed the Maulerfiend at 135 and accurately listed its profile, and the WD confirmed his assertions. That makes me think the bit about the Forgefiend was correct as well. The WD tells us a triple-ectoplasm cannon Forgefiend is 200 points; it is good value for what it does, but pricey in terms of smaller games. Tastytaste says that a Forgefiend with two Hades Autocannons is 120 points. If that's true, I think we can all rejoice. 120 points for something that is much more durable than Loyalist dreadnoughts and spits out double the potential firepower of a Psyflemen dreadnought? Hopefully it is true, because that is yet another great value purchase for any army list, providing long-range firepower like we've never had access to before. As we've already confirmed the great value of Mutilators and Maulerfiends, it will be great to see if this codex has many units that jump out as good buys - unlike the previous codex where we were restricted to a handful of units for 'competitive play'.

Actually looked at his rumours again, and it is scary how much what he posted is spot on. I'd say about 90% of what he posted is accurate, and the other 10% could easily be down to minor changes or mistranslations.
Have a look for yourselves;
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/08/11/rumor-has-it-csm-codex-rumor-drop-part-2/

Now I'm really excited - if his other stuff is true (this is speculation on my part). Obliterators are cheaper, and yet get Assault Cannons and Fear now? Havocs are 13 points each and their special/heavy weapons are 5-15 points cheaper? On that, if Havocs are 13 base, I am guessing basic Chaos Space Marines are 13 points each too? Ridiculous if true - as in the awesome kind of ridiculous. The daemon weapons he posted up also sound cool. Abaddon is S10, Berzerkers are 19 points each, Noise Marines are 16 points each, Thousand Sons are 23 points each, Plague Marines are 24 points each (but gain Poison). Really excited now, if our stuff really is that cheap.....*cries* 130 for a 10 man Chaos Marine squad, 10 for a Champion (I assume), then 10 points per meltagun (I assume), and 35 points for a Rhino (I assume). 195 for 10 Chaos Space Marines, an Aspiring Champion, 2 Meltaguns and a Rhino based off the rumours? Woah. And yeah, Obliterators are CHEAPER yet BETTER.

[Big_jon]

Can someone confirm whether Dreads and mauler fiends can take marks or not?

Also has no one noticed that Oblitirators are now daemons, meaning no more ID?

[Learn2Eel]

Can someone confirm whether Dreads and mauler fiends can take marks or not?

Also has no one noticed that Oblitirators are now daemons, meaning no more ID?

Hellbrutes can take marks, yes. No one seems to know whether any of the daemon engines can take marks.

The Daemon USR actually doesn't grant Eternal Warrior. But Obliterators do cause fear now, as well as have assault cannons.

[Big_jon]

Hellbrutes can take marks, yes. No one seems to know whether any of the daemon engines can take marks.

The Daemon USR actually doesn't grant Eternal Warrior. But Obliterators do cause fear now, as well as have assault cannons.

Thank God for Marked Dreads.

[daboarder]

Thank God for Marked Dreads.

https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/?ui=2&ik=8eb5c73c62&view=att&th=139e905684e7f585&attid=0.3&disp=inline&realattid=f_h7dbrjuh2&safe=1&zw&saduie=AG9B_P-iKhFWKACh9so1g1zld1en&sadet=1348393602088&sads=WEXftdF93n15UxJSq_C9_vLdbsU&sadssc=1

http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss2/daboarder/page23b_zps482de482.jpg


NO THEY CANNOT TAKE MARKS!!

[Learn2Eel]

https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/?ui=2&ik=8eb5c73c62&view=att&th=139e905684e7f585&attid=0.3&disp=inline&realattid=f_h7dbrjuh2&safe=1&zw&saduie=AG9B_P-iKhFWKACh9so1g1zld1en&sadet=1348393602088&sads=WEXftdF93n15UxJSq_C9_vLdbsU&sadssc=1


NO THEY CANNOT TAKE MARKS!!

My mistake, I must have been looking at the Terminators entry.
Anyway, what's with the all-caps?

[daboarder]

well please next time you get so aggresive with your posts verify your information

As to the Dark Apostle, As I said earlier in this thread they are quite clearly a HQ choice making it likely that the rumours of their abilities are also rubbish.

This codex isn't going to change the status quo its basically the same codex we had last time with 3 units added, a couple of units changed and split and some options re costed, its boring and bland.

it really is looking more and more like the Tyranid release.

edit: Interestingly I see no restriction on the purchasing of icons, could we potentially take MoN and IoE? no the reference sheet saws no doesn't it.

Interestingly it looks as if the terminator options are LESS than xx pts? hmm

HS!! reapers are STILL 25 pts? WTF

and heavy flamers got made 10?

[Learn2Eel]

well please next time you get so aggresive with your posts verify your information

As to the Dark Apostle, As I said earlier in this thread they are quite clearly a HQ choice making it likely that the rumours of their abilities are also rubbish.

This codex isn't going to change the status quo its basically the same codex we had last time with 3 units added, a couple of units changed and split and some options re costed, its boring and bland.

it really is looking more and more like the Tyranid release.

edit: Interestingly I see no restriction on the purchasing of icons, could we potentially take MoN and IoE? no the reference sheet saws no doesn't it.

Interestingly it looks as if the terminator options are LESS than xx pts? hmm

HS!! reapers are STILL 25 pts? WTF

Aggressive? I'm sorry if I came off that way.
But surely you must understand how silly it is to write a codec off when we haven't even seen most of it yet right? I have been basing my opinions off what we know, stuff that is mostly good - I.e the Helldrake, mutilators, Maulerfiend, the Hellbrute being better, our psychic powers being greatly improved, etc.

I'm mostly just frustrated that some people - not necessarily you - are moaning and soiling that our codex is under powered and over costed when they don't know the full story - especially when what we have seen points the other way anyway.
Wait what am I saying, looking at your third paragraph. How is it boring and bland? You haven't read it yet! Even though we have eight entirely new units, have kept the old ones and given them new options, expanded upon marks and icons, and been given a slew of new wargear and special rules, you say we are bland and similar to the Tyranid release? Ok, why do you say that? Even though our codec already has some confirmed powerful and cheap options including Mutilators and Maulerfiends. You don't have the codex. Stop assuming it is bad. Look bright and wait!

[daboarder]

So far we've got about half the codex, that is a serious chunk of it, I think that's more than enough to start making informed opinions provided that a person iss willing to change them if they are proven wrong. But I really don't think these will be.

I'm bitter yes, but I was around during the Tyranid release, the Dark angel release and the last chaos release, and believe me you could tell those were going to be bad before they were. Its depressing but the chaos release has all the hallmarks of that kind of BAD release.

I'll elaborate

We have gotten some new stuff but the numbers are miss leading, apart from the flier they are basically just cc or shooty variants of one idea, and at worse a variation on an idea we've had for years. This doesn't make it a bad release but it is indicative of poor design and when you take into account that none of the glaring problems from the old codex have been adressed in the old units then I feel pretty confident in writing off this release as MEH!

[the jeske]

As soon as you hit with one attack, if you keep the magma cutters you get an additional 2 S8 AP1 automatic hits. Crazy. You are looking at 3-4 dead marines, even if you don't charge.

against the same model you hit . so your hiting those marines your already hiting with low ap fist class weapons . It is ok against termiantors [if fist fails you still have the pseudo shoting he has to roll for] and great against tanks , but not against normal infantry .

and he has to get in to hth somehow . your saying he smokes a LR . that is true . But A why would anyone use LR in 6th and why are they standing in charge range of a hth unit ? against Ig for example your going to have to go through the aegis and theIG behind them and probably the chimera to get to those important LR or manticoras. being a hth unit it does nothing to flyers . huge handicap considering it sits in the hvy support section .


The fact that there are two melee-only units that are fantastic value from what we can see already is a big reason to get excited.
exited about melee in a shoting dominated edition ? realy . 105 for 3 dudes is not cheap when they are S&P [so cant chase down units in hth . marines will just auto rally and double tap with plasma] and runing +5inv guys when everyone priority is to take plasma to counter +2 sv units makes little sense.



You don't have the codex. Stop assuming it is bad. Look bright and wait!
only both maulers and the hth fiend suck . they do nothing to help combat shoty armies and they do nothing to help against flyer builds , while at the same time they do not come for free . I mean realy 3 hull points av 12 walker that is huge ? thats like runing a t6 no +5sv MC with 3 wounds.

[Svartmetall]

...Obliterators do cause fear now, as well as have assault cannons.

And heavy flamers...

[Learn2Eel]

So far we've got about half the codex, that is a serious chunk of it, I think that's more than enough to start making informed opinions provided that a person iss willing to change them if they are proven wrong. But I really don't think these will be.

I'm bitter yes, but I was around during the Tyranid release, the Dark angel release and the last chaos release, and believe me you could tell those were going to be bad before they were. Its depressing but the chaos release has all the hallmarks of that kind of BAD release.

I'll elaborate

We have gotten some new stuff but the numbers are miss leading, apart from the flier they are basically just cc or shooty variants of one idea, and at worse a variation on an idea we've had for years. This doesn't make it a bad release but it is indicative of poor design and when you take into account that none of the glaring problems from the old codex have been adressed in the old units then I feel pretty confident in writing off this release as MEH!

I definitely wouldn't say we have half the codex. We still know nothing about the points cost of most of the HQs, Troops, Fast Attack and Heavy Support. We've seen one of the Elites pages, some of the special rules and wargear options, as well as what Mutilators and Obliterators have now. That isn't even close to half the codex. We still don't have the full picture on what a lot of units will have access to or be like in regards to the new rules.

People wanted variety dude, and we've gotten it. They said themselves this army isn't intended to be a complete rebuild, it is intended to be what the last codex should have been. But until we have the book in our hands, there is no way to know how much different it is. The fact they've basically confirmed everything (bar a few units like Defilers) are getting cheaper is already a big change. Lots of Chaos' problems revolved around not having enough long-range AT, or being too expensive and having fewer options than Loyalists. Voila, we now have the Forgefiend and Havocs are reportedly in the Long Fang points range.
Also, how can you say that none of the glaring problems from the old codex have been addressed? I assume you are referring to over-costing, lack of options and lack of long-range anti-tank. Again, the third one we know we are getting a better deal than before. The lack of options, well we can already tell from a mere handful of special rules and wargear options that it is expanding quite a bit. Also, the over-costing, again, looks to be a thing of the past hopefully.

Confident in writing the release off as 'MEH' is not being realistic. That's just being pessimistic and you know it. Give it a chance, we still don't know a lot of stuff.

[Learn2Eel]

I'm confused. How is it not ok against normal infantry? How is it only ok against terminators? It doesn't say "the same model". It just gains additional attacks. It's great against anything. On average, you are looking at two additional casualties for your opponent. How is that not a good thing? It will allow you to either wipe out a unit quicker or force them to flee and perhaps get a sweeping advance. On the charge, compared against the Helbrute profile with the basic loadout, you are averaging 2 or 3 more kills against Marines - that 30+ points makes a big difference considering the cheap price tag of the Maulerfiend. Also, charging into a unit of Terminators and killing at least two or three on the charge is a fair trade off if they hit you back with power fists. Why? There's a good chance it has made its points back already. But you don't send it against dedicated melee units of that kind.

Umm. I don't understand. I've seen plenty of people use Land Raiders in 6th Edition. Not everyone runs MSU/flyer spam lists. Why are they in charge range? Um, because it has an effective 24" charge range, mate. It moves 12", ignoring terrain, and can re-roll its charge distance. Being that a Land Raider is also primarily a transport, your opponent isn't going to be able to avoid the Maulerfiend for long. Also, if your opponent is worried about your 135 point Maulerfiend annihilating his 250 point Land Raider, then you are already mounting a psychological victory over your opponent. If they are afraid of something, they will make mistakes or adapt a different plan. Either way, sitting back with a Land Raider isn't the point of taking one. Given its move range, it can move around blobs you know. Or it can barrel right into them and have a good chance of sweeping them. Either way, that's one less unit shooting at you. How is it a massive handicap? Most units in the game can't effectively deal with flyers. That is why you take Heldrakes, or Havocs with Flakk Missiles, or both. Big whoop, they can't hurt flyers. How many flyer spam lists do you see nowadays? Aside from tournaments, they aren't seen at a local level. And even then, your opponent has to have units on the ground in a flyer spam list, units which the Fiend will probably chew up.

You missed my point obviously. Everyone has been saying that 6th is a shooting-oriented edition. I know that very well, hence why my 6th Edition lists do not run dedicated melee-units, except for the obligatory pair of flying daemon princes. What I am trying to say is that, as you can tell by my appraisal of these two units, I can actually see them being used in an Edition where Shooting is king at the moment. That is the value. 105 points for three two wound Terminators is very cheap actually. Paladins are 20 points more each, base. Paladins have guns, mind you, but not even they can dish the damage overall per-model that Mutilators can. You also don't seem to understand my point about target saturation. If your opponent is shooting their plasma weaponry or their anti-tank weaponry at the 105 point Mutilators (almost a 15th of my army list), then they aren't shooting at my more points-heavy or important targets. One thing I learned with the old Chaos codex was that target saturation was our friend, moreso than probably any other codex. Keep it cheap, put lots of it on the field, do not give it anything more than necessary. My common list had two flying daemon princes, three dreadnoughts, two rhinos, two ten man squads, two vindicators and a defiler. Your average competitive player would sniff at that, obviously. But the fact of the matter is that target saturation is a big part of our game. When everyone sees Mutilators, they are going to think "CC Obliterators!". Everyone will know how deadly they are once they make it to combat. Hence why they are guaranteed to pound them with heavy firepower at some point in the game. That is heavy firepower that won't be touching your Forgefiends or transports. That plasma weaponry you shot at my Mutilators....cool, my Rhinos move up untouched. I'm looking at the big picture. 105 points for a unit that will probably make its points back when it charges, and is very durable too, is great value. It is a distraction unit, much like why I took three dreadnoughts in the old rules. No-one wants that close to them. Unlike the Dreadnoughts, Mutilators don't attack your own stuff. And Slow and Purposeful is not as massive a problem as you think it is. You are averaging 2" less movement than another combat unit. Not great, but hey, you can Deep Strike. And as far as we know, they can ride in transports too. Take a Havoc squad, buy them a Rhino, give it to the Mutilators. Not being Terminator-armoured means it is legal, as far as we know.

Oh right, they suck. You haven't read the codex in full, you don't know everything about the two units, you don't know how they gel with the rest of the army list, and yet they suck. Pull out that codex of yours, please.
How do they do nothing to combat shooty armies? The Maulerfiend is quick enough and durable enough to get right in the fray and cause havoc. The Mutilators are a very cheap distraction unit that brings the pain. Oh, they do nothing against flyer builds? That's nice, how many units in the game do nothing or very badly against flyers? Check it, there are a LOT. The advantage these two units have is being cheap and effective at what they do. That is why, again, you take other units to deal with flyers. And really, if you are list-tailoring for a flyer-spam list, then you wouldn't look at half the codex, would you? As is the case with every codex! And even then, if you are list tailoring, you are missing the point of writing a balanced army list, of which these two units can be made a part of. They don't come for free? Hot tip; nothing does.
No it isn't. The walker is virtually immune to small arms fire and thus isn't going to be shot at by as many units. Oh, and you forgot to mention that monstrous creature has It Will Not Die, Fleet, Move Through Cover, ignores difficult terrain, and moves 12". For 135 points.

Is this what always happens when a new release comes out? Dear lord, everyone loses their damned minds.

[Learn2Eel]

And heavy flamers...

I thought they already had them? If not, wow. That's an awesome buff for Obliterators :D Assault Cannons was already enough for me!

[Wildcard]

All the info from Faeits interview (interrogation :) )

Daemon Prince stats:

WS9 BS5 S6 T5 W4 I8 A5 Ld 9 Sv- Mc(Ch)

Being daemon he is only getting 5+ invulnerable save :D

Lovely lovely lovely.. Would this be first time when psilencers are gonna be of any use..

Also from CodexReader via Faeit 212
(Note specifically the bolded part)


Havocs 75pts for 4 + asp champ, weapons are more reasonably priced FLAKK MISSILES ARE 10PTS PER MODEL AND CAN BE TAKEN WITH FRAG AND KRAK

Oblits are 70pts

Edit:

Baleflamer template S6 Ap3 Heavy 1, Soul Blaze, Torrent..

So, Ap3 wasn't enough. 12" + template wasn't enough, they gave it ability to set stuff on fire aswell.. :)

And this weapon is most likely in the dragon flier.. good luck hiding your specialist marines in.. ..where ever you generally hide 'em :P

/Edit.

Another edit( since i happen to be obsessed with daemon princes :) )

145pts + upgrades:
- wings 40pts
- Power Armour 20pts (most likely, the picture is poor on that spot)
- mastery level up to 3 25pts per level (usual stuff about not being able to get khorne related stuff)

After this the image gets blurry so i might read something wrong:
It probably says this:
Must be upgraded to be a:
- Daemon of Khorne 15pts
- Daemon of Tzeen 15pts
- Daemon of Nurgle 15pts
- Daemon of Slaanesh 10pts

-May take *something* the Chaos Rewards and/or Chaos Artefacts *something* of the wargear list

Special Rules:
- Daemon
- Fearless
- Veteran of the Long War

*Personal note: No word of eternal warrior*

Another look at the different picture (showing Abaddons listing) shows that Chaos Artefacts are unique items Drachyen daemon sword, Talon of Horus, or Typhus Manreaper..

Although I do not know what exactly are listed in the Artefact-section of the book..

/Another Edit

[Galadren]

Looks like it's shaping up to be a truly exciting release that only makes my Templars cry more, hah. Still trying to decide which Chaos Legion to go with, Night Lords or Alpha Legion.

On a side note, I hope they FAQ other armies with missile launchers to get the Flakk missile upgrades.

[Learn2Eel]

Woah. That profile on the Daemon Prince is insane. So for +35 points more than they used to be, they've lost the +3 armour save and -1 Leadership, but gained two higher WS (they are the same WS as the Swarmlord my lord), +3 Initiative (holy sh*t), +1 attack. Woah. And wings only +40 points? 185 for something that will usually get shot by anti-tank weaponry anyway and is flying is hardly a major nerf, really. They are more expensive, but jeez they've become far better at killing characters. And look how cheap it is to dedicate them! You get Furious Charge for +15 points, or re-roll all saving throws of 1 for +15 points, or Slow and Purposeful and Shrouding for +15 points, or Fleet, Rending and Assault Grenades for +10 points. Seriously though.....WS9 and I8!? Woah! And able to take up to Mastery Level 3? With Biomancy? Jeez louise.

Baleflamer also has Soul Blaze? And yes, it is the weapon on the Dragon (confirmed by the WD Battle Report). Woah.

Obliterators have become cheaper by 5 points per model, even though they've gained Fear, Assault Cannons and Heavy Flamers? Yeesh.

Havocs are cheaper, it used to be about 90 for 4 and an aspiring champion. Also, with the weapons being cheaper, that is great. Havocs were already a decent choice and now are being brought in line with units like Long Fangs in terms of price. Also, the Flakk Missiles part is nice. I assume then that it won't be all that uncommon to see three 5-man Havoc squads with four missile launchers and flakk missiles - if people are worried about flier spam.

Apparently Daemon Princes can take Daemon Weapons now too, and having access to more wargear options is great. Yes, they are more expensive and lost the +3 armour save base, but look at the buffs to their profile, and the new wargear options are much better than before.

Thanks for the summary mate!

Having a look for myself now. I think the Daemon Prince may actually be T6. The Sorcerer Lord is cheap as - 60 points base, +25 for each extra mastery level (up to 3). So 110 points gets you a Mastery Level 3 psyker. :eek: Holy cow, sounds way better than a Grey Knight Librarian for points! Also, you can see that if a Sorcerer Lord has the Mark of Tzeentch, you can take Thousand Sons as troops. So, it looks like Thousand Sons are the only cult unit that doesn't require a Chaos Lord/special character with the appropriate mark, we can take a Sorcerer Lord instead. Cool!
Hard to see how much Terminator armour costs for the Sorcerer Lord. I'm guessing it will be in the bracket that it always has been, i.e. 20-30 points.

Crazy amount of options to pick from multiple different areas, can see Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Chaos Rewards, Special Issue Wargear, and I think Chaos Boons or Chaos Wargear? They don't come with an invulnerable save base as far as I can tell. But you can take that +4 invulnerable save giving special issue wargear, and then take the Mark of a Tzeentch for a +3 invulnerable save psyker, probably for cheap. Seriously though, Mastery Level 3 psyker and still a Sorcerer Lord for 110 points!? WOAH! It is also good because that means there will now be Mastery Level 3 Slaanesh and Nurgle Sorcerer Lords (as oppossed to being capped at Mastery Level 1). Great news!

Warpsmith has 2 wounds, 110 points base, Fleshmetal (like Obliterators and Mutilators). Comes with Bolt Pistol, Power Axe, Mechadrites, and the other special rules base. Can take Ranged Weapons, Chaos Rewards and Chaos Artefacts. They can also be Marked! T5 Warpsmith anyone? Dark Apostle profile looks similar - 2 wounds, etc. We have to see what their special rules are I guess.

Also, Chaos Space Marines are indeed +13 points each! Crazy! 75 for 4 + the Champion, +13 for more. But wait, it looks like we have to pay +2 points per model for close combat weapons now? Special weapons are Flamer +5, Meltagun +10, Plasma Gun +15. Heavy Weapons are looking cheap as! Autocannons are +10 points, Missile Launchers +15, Lascannons +20. Veterans of the Long War is +1 per model. Marks are all +2 per model, except Nurgle which is +3. Icons range from 10 to 30 points, Excess (Feel No Pain) being the most expensive, and Despair (Fear) being the cheapest. Looks like the Fearless icon is +25 points.

Cultists are +50 for 9 and a champion. Profile is guardsmen level, except +6 armour save and they have two CCWs as oppossed to lasguns/autoguns. Also, it looks like you can add 25 more (35 man squads!). No word on the price of icons/marks.

Great signs so far!

EDIT: Found more leaks. Havocs are 2 attacks base (lolwut). Chainaxes are a +2 points upgrade per Khorne Berzerker, they are AP4 in combat! WOW! Confirmed - Plague Marines now have Plague Knives (Poisoned +4).
:eek: We have Thunder Hammers now! WHAT!? We also have something called the Power Scourge; S8 AP2, Flails, no Unwieldy. I assume it is for the Helbrute. Woah! Shotguns (for Cultists) are S5 AP- Assault 2! Bloody hell, Noise Marines are super nasty with S5 AP5 Sonic Blasters and Blastmasters that are the same as before that all ignore cover!

Abaddon is indeed S10 now! The Talon gives him +1 S and the Daemon Weapon gives him x2 S! Although, it doesn't say whether he actually uses both at the same time. Abaddon's profile hasn't changed, he has the Black Crusader Warlord Trait (as we expected), so he grants Preferred Enemy (Space Marines) in a 12" bubble around him. Nasty. He still has the uber-mark, so he gets Rage and Counter-Attack now.

Typhus is in! The Manreaper is now +2 S, AP2, Unwieldy, Force, Daemon Weapon. Hold that - it is hard to see, some people are saying it is actually X2 S! No word on if it is still Poisoned (+4). Typhus STILL has Feel No Pain! Hurrah! I can't make out what Mastery Level he is, it is either 2 or 3. The Destroyer Hive is different now, but I can't tell what it says really. Zombies are in, have Feel No Pain, Fearless and Slow and Purposeful, all for free. Can't take additional weapons. It doesn't actually say they aren't scoring - cheap as chips Plaguebearers anyone?

Ahriman's profile is there. Can't make out much but we saw the other leak earlier that was clearer. The Black Staff works as before (three shooting attacks per turn) and also appears to be +2 Strength and AP....3? Crazy if that is correct.

Oh, by the way guys - Typhus and Ahriman are both 230 points according to the person that posted the pictures I am looking at. Fantastic! +5 increase for Typhus, but he is a lot more powerful now, like being S6 AP2, and Mastery Level 2, and can do some crazy stuff like the Zombies thing. Ahriman is +20 points cheaper for a better close combat weapon, a higher mastery level by 1, access to much better psychic powers, etc. Can't tell what Ahriman's invulnerable save is actually, come to think of it. It doesn't say in his profile what it is, he just has the Mark of Tzeentch.

Yowza! Berzerkers are +15 points a model! 105 points for 4 + Champion. Much cheaper! However, they are now 1 attack base on their profile - but still effectively 2 attacks base because of the two CCWs. So they are 3 attacks from Counter-Attack, 4 attacks on the charge. Considering they are +6 points cheaper per model and can take AP4 weapons for +2 points per model, I think that is a massive price drop.
All the Daemon Engines are 12/12/10, no surprises there. Only thing we didn't already know is that the Defiler is now S8 base.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Love the look of the new Prince stats, and that he can take Daemon Weapons.

And good lord this page has some wall o' texts :P

[daboarder]

Learn2eel

Please break up the text walls so the are readable.

Coupe of things.

Abby must choose whic weapon he uses, not great but not as bad as it could have been (pre 4th his daemon weapon was only 1 extra attack that didn't ignore armour and was pretty naff)
They also re-introduced the rule that stipulates Blood angels get hatred due to the Talon of Horus (YAY!)
Typhus, No 4+ Poison, he doesn't have it its gone. Likely +2 strength on Manreaper not x2S

Destoyer hive is now a holocuast if tasty is right (And he has been so far)

Bezerkers loose an attack, they used to be 3 not 2 now they are 2 also limits the old Zerker champion fist of doom.

Typhus is still pretty boss, but MUST select his powers from the Nurgle ones so only has 4 options (though none of them are bad)

The thunderhammer and scourge are options for the hellbrute, no idea what the "flail" special rule in the scourges profile does.

13 points a marine isn't crazy when they only have 1 attack must pay 2 pts to get 2 attacks and a range attack at the same time (they can swap bolter for free or pay for CCW) especially when they do not have ATSKNF.

I like the option for veterans of the long war, its going to make anti-marine armies quite dangerous at tournamenst if the meta stays stacked towards loyalists.

Sorcerers are cheap as chips.

Most interesting thing, Armouries are back, at least for chaos, all the sergeants and chose leaders reference their chance to take weapons and gear not listed on their armoury pages.

[Learn2Eel]

Learn2eel

Please break up the text walls so the are readable.

Coupe of things.

Abby must choose whic weapon he uses, not great but not as bad as it could have been (pre 4th his daemon weapon was only 1 extra attack that didn't ignore armour and was pretty naff)
They also re-introduced the rule that stipulates Blood angels get hatred due to the Talon of Horus (YAY!)
Typhus, No 4+ Poison, he doesn't have it its gone. Likely +2 strength on Manreaper not x2S

Destoyer hive is now a holocuast if tasty is right (And he has been so far)

Bezerkers loose an attack, they used to be 3 not 2 now they are 2 also limits the old Zerker champion fist of doom.

Typhus is still pretty boss, but MUST select his powers from the Nurgle ones so only has 4 options (though none of them are bad)

The thunderhammer and scourge are options for the hellbrute, no idea what the "flail" special rule in the scourges profile does.

13 points a marine isn't crazy when they only have 1 attack must pay 2 pts to get 2 attacks and a range attack at the same time (they can swap bolter for free or pay for CCW) especially when they do not have ATSKNF.

I like the option for veterans of the long war, its going to make anti-marine armies quite dangerous at tournamenst if the meta stays stacked towards loyalists.

Sorcerers are cheap as chips.

Most interesting thing, Armouries are back, at least for chaos, all the sergeants and chose leaders reference their chance to take weapons and gear not listed on their armoury pages.

Sorry mate, kept adding stuff as I saw it lol. I'm not very articulate when I am excited haha. Will do.

I think that is a fair trade off though. He might not instant-death Paladins anymore whilst ignoring their armour, but I think that is fair enough. Either S5 AP2 for Terminator-hunting or S8 AP3 Shred for infantry/tank/walker hunting is good enough for me. Regarding the Blood Angels thing, I think that is fair enough. It does seem like he has taken a bit of a debuff in combat, but he actually does affect the rest of your army now, which is a fair trade off methinks. He is still a close combat monster. We won't know until we see his army list entry if he makes Chosen troops.

As far as Typhus goes, I think S6 is fantastic. And you never know, it might still be the case that, like in the old edition, the Manreaper counts as a Daemon Weapon of Nurgle because Typhus has the Mark of Nurgle. But yeah, looks like he has lost that. It sounds like he is much better against other marines, and worse against T7 and up monstrous creatures, but better against T5 monstrous creatures. Against T6, he was always wounding on a +4 with no re-rolls, so that hasn't changed. Typhus is going to be a monster against Paladins. Agreed, Taste said it was S4 AP2 Large Blast that ignored cover. Not sure if true, but it could also be referring to the Warp Charge 2 power in the Nurgle discipline, which is Poisoned +4, AP2 but doesn't ignore cover. I think Typhus is better. He's much better against T4-T5 than he was, and about the same against T6. For a +5 point increase, he also gets some decent powers to choose from - the Nurgle ones are all pretty good. But I think Typhus will be taken mostly because of that crazy Zombie thing.

As far as Berzerkers go, they will end up having the same amount of attacks on the charge as before. The fact that they are +15 points a model is crazy though, they are +6 points cheaper for essentially one less attack when they don't charge. That's much better value than before. Also, being able to take AP4 weapons for only +2 points per model is crazy good - imagine that against non-marine armies, considering they already have Furious Charge too. What's that Dire Avengers? +4 armour save? Too bad. Sorry, you paid the points for Carapace Armour on your Veterans? Better luck next time lol.

I look at it this way with the basic marines - you are paying 3 less points than your normal loyalist marine. We are basically the same price as before (a bit cheaper actually) if we take the extra attack option. I guess you can look at it this way; we can spam hordes and hordes of them. 10 men for 140 points is very cheap for marines, and they are still good. Against a lot of armies, the sheer amount of marines you can field is quite astounding. I think it is a fair trade, though it would have been nice if the extra combat weapon was only a point extra.
Agreed, people complain about Marines being the focus but it seems like, if we want to, us Chaos players can take lists dedicated to absolutely demolishing Space Marines. It feels good to have an edge like that over our brethren. If your Warlord gets Black Crusader (or you have Abaddon) every unit within 12" of the Warlord gets Preferred Enemy (Space Marines), and if you give them all Hatred (which appears to be a very minimal points increase per model), you are looking at some nasty anti-Space Marine love.

I know right? Sorcerers are ridiculously cheap. I thought Grey Knight Librarians were cheap for what they did, but having a Mastery Level 3 psyker for 110 points is absolutely balls-to-the-walls insane. And he is still a Sorcerer Lord, so 2 wounds, good WS/BS, A, etc. Terminator armour doesn't look very expensive either, or marks. A Mastery Level 3 Grey Knight Librarian gets a Nemesis force sword, Terminator Armour and Hammerhand for 90 points more. That's it. And they have to pay for their powers too, our Sorcerer Lords don't! Ridiculous stuff. It also makes me think about Ahriman - he's 120 points more than a basic Mastery Level 3 psyker, for a higher Mastery Level and the ability to use three witchfire powers a turn - and his staff is +2 S AP3. I'm thinking Ahriman has stuff we don't yet know about. For example, it doesn't say what his basic invulnerable save is in the rules, and it doesn't appear as if he has that +4 invulnerable save providing-wargear. I guess we will find out soon enough. I assume he has a +4, but it actually wouldn't be all that surprising if he had a +3.

I think that is an awesome change regarding the armoury. It doesn't have any real restrictions either, for example, you can give a Skull Champion anything from the ranged wargear/melee wargear sections. Even though you wouldn't do it, it sounds like you could give a Skull Champion an autocannon or a missile launcher. I think Aspiring Champions just got a whole lot cuter really. Anyone see 5-man Havoc squads with 5 missile launchers, 4 normal and one on the champion?

[Learn2Eel]

I'd just like to add on, from what we have seen of a lot of the HQ options so far, I think we can see quite a few competitive lists springing up from the basic principles below;

1) Dual Sorcerer Lord lists. Mastery Level 3 at 110 points a pop, rolling on Biomancy, Pyromancy or Telepathy. Give them a mark (cheap) and take the decent Chaos powers too. Obviously, lots of anti-psyker potential for Space Wolves, Tyranids, Eldar, etc, but still, other armies in the game have to pay at least +200 points for their Mastery Level 3 psykers.
2) Hatred lists. Take Abaddon, give your stuff Veterans of the Long War. Fight Space Marines. Profit.
3) Take Typhus. Take multiple chunky Cultist units. Make them Zombies. Sit on Objectives. Laugh maniacally. Just for reference - a 20 man Cultist unit (including the Champion) without upgrades is 90 points. :eek: Also, I'll point out that whilst it looks like Plague Zombies are scoring, there might be a section in the army list that says otherwise.

Hehe, just what we can see already, and it is good. I would really like to see our special characters used more, and more variety for competitive lists.
Just for reference - a 20 man Cultist unit (including the Champion) without upgrades is 90 points.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

it sounds like you could give a Skull Champion an autocannon or a missile launcher. I think Aspiring Champions just got a whole lot cuter really. Anyone see 5-man Havoc squads with 5 missile launchers, 4 normal and one on the champion?Like the sound of that, fits Chaos Marines perfectly. Any Aspiring Champion who let a subordinate carry the Meltagun would quickly be slagged and replaced by the Meltagunner as Champion :P

[White Tiger88]

Ok so i have seen nothing about Changes to Terminators,Chosen or possessed......where there any? Ops or rhino costs!

Edit: Forgot to ask....Any changes to champion wargear costs for squads?

[Learn2Eel]

Agreed. I think it is a great change. It also means we can run 5-man units with two special weapons, Imperial Guard Veterans style (although Veterans can of take a third one, but at 10 models, not 5). And cheaper too, actually. Just half the models and a less durable tank.
Actually, yeah. 75 points (5 models) + two meltaguns, plus rhino (guessing it is still 35 points) = 130 points. Compared to 70 points (10 models) + two meltaguns, plus Chimera = 145. 15 more points for five more models, which are much less durable (except the transport), much worse in combat, etc.
Not exactly the same but it is still a very valid observation.

[Learn2Eel]

Ok so i have seen nothing about Changes to Terminators,Chosen or possessed......where there any? Ops or rhino costs!


Hey mate, it looks like Terminators are a point more expensive base than they were, so 31 points a model. However, upgrades appear to be cheaper - power fists are less than 10 points a model (I assume 9) and lightning claws look like 5 points, and marks look to be done on a per-model basis like other units in the codex. Marks are all in the single-digit points costs, but apparently are a bit more expensive per model than for other units. Terminators also now have access to icons, but it appears to be expensive. So you can make pseudo-cult terminators, despite some rumours that you couldn't (which is great!). Heavy weapons look to be about the same cost. You also can't make the whole squad Terminator Champions for an extra attack and all characters. There is now one Terminator Champion included in the base cost of the squad (95, the champion is in essence a +3 point upgrade), and it looks like he can be given wargear the other Terminators can't - i.e. the Chaos Gifts and stuff.

Chosen are more expensive by the looks of things, have lost Infiltrate, are a point of leadership lower, but now have an extra attack base. Despite contrary rumours, I am pretty sure they can still spam special weapons like they used to - it says up to four models can take "X" and it has special ranged weapons clearly listed under that part. The way I see them being used is either as rhino-mounted elite assault troops with lots of special melee weapons or in kind of like a mechguard Veterans role, provided you take Abaddon who apparently makes them troops. The loss of Infiltrate is a nerf but I think we just have to use them differently. Having 5-man squads with 4 (or 5, depending on the Champion) meltaguns/plasmaguns is still nasty in Rhinos, especially when they are quite good in combat. If Abaddon does make them troops, you could even say they might be a bit better than before by fitting as a pseudo special weapons squad (i.e. Havocs) that can capture objectives.

Possessed appear to be 130 points base for 4 and a champion. They look a bit cheaper than before, but they sound better. Instead of rolling a D6 for what ability they get for a game, they instead roll a D3 if they are in an assault; on a 1, they can re-roll to wound; on a 2, they count as being AP3; and on a 3, they have the Poisoned (+4) rule. Marks are cheaper too. They can also take Icons. It looks like they are more guaranteed to get good abilities in combat, whilst being cheaper. They also can get some better customization options; giving them Feel No Pain, Rage, etc are all worthwhile.

On your edit, it looks like wargear in general is cheaper, so I would say yes.

[daboarder]

Nah Typhus won't have poison.

Daemon weapon does nothing now except the additional attacks, basically its a special rule for weapons in the manner of unwieldly or master crafted. Their will be other daemon weapons but all Manreaper is going to do it what it says on the tin, and the tin doesn't say poison.

Chosen can't spam special you an read the text enough to know.

Its the
"one chosen may replace text"

I also don't think that the "ranged weapon" list is going to include heavy weapons, it will be options such as "combi-weapon", Bolter, Plasma pistol.

Maybe if your really lucky it will include specials but I highly doubt it.

[Learn2Eel]

Nah Typhus won't have poison.

Daemon weapon does nothing now except the additional attacks, basically its a special rule for weapons in the manner of unwieldly or master crafted. Their will be other daemon weapons but all Manreaper is going to do it what it says on the tin, and the tin doesn't say poison.

I agree. Still, against most enemies he will face, I think it is better, especially given the latest FAQ where he was only counted as S4. Against T3 to T5, it is better. Against T6, it is the same. Against T7 and higher, it is worse. But only C'Tan Shards, Pain Engines and Wraithlords generally have T7 or higher, and there are almost no T2 enemies in the game, so I would say it is a good trade off.

No dude, you have to re-read the entry. You can clearly also see under the "four may take" that there is a section that has meltaguns and plasma guns, as well as combi-bolters. If you look closely, you can see that it is under both the "one may take" and the "four may take". So actually, you can run six man squads all with special ranged weapons (one for the Champion). It's just that the "one may take" appears to have more ranged weapon options, probably heavy weapons.

[HERO]

Nah Typhus won't have poison.

Daemon weapon does nothing now except the additional attacks, basically its a special rule for weapons in the manner of unwieldly or master crafted. Their will be other daemon weapons but all Manreaper is going to do it what it says on the tin, and the tin doesn't say poison.

Chosen can't spam special you an read the text enough to know.

Its the
"one chosen may replace text"

Source?

None of the information provided thus far have confirmed-denied that Daemon Weapons have no additional effect depending on what mark you take.

[Learn2Eel]

The pictures linked to over on Faeit. They may have been taken down, but I still have them loaded up - I realized that they would probably be taken down, hence I didn't close the pages or refresh them. Typhus is like he was in the most recent FAQ as far as the Manreaper goes, except it now makes him S6 and is no longer Poisoned (+4).

Also, on Daemon Princes, unless it says otherwise in their main profile, they are not Eternal Warriors and look like they are T5 (it is hard to tell). If they lose Eternal Warrior, I expect they must be T6, because otherwise any Monstrous Creature can kill them with Smash, which defeats the purpose of their insane Mephiston-esque profile. I still can't get over that. Daemon Princes are now more like what they used to be, having a godlike statline on a generic HQ. WS9 I8 A5!? You are faster than a damned Archon! That is four Smash attacks on the charge hitting almost everything in the game on 3s! (Half you base attacks rounding up, which is 3, then plus any bonuses. So 4 Smash attacks on the charge :eek:) With the new rules, it actually makes sense to take Chaos/Sorcerer Lords over them now, which is a great sign. Instead of being the most cost-effective HQ in the game, now they actually seem balanced. I'm quite happy with that, I'd rather balance as oppossed to clearly superior choices in a codex.

[daboarder]

As to terminators,

Well you can't really make psuedo cultinators out of them because Kelly frakked up which icon gives which benefit, as in he's got the nurgle/slaaneshi ones around the worng way but I wont go into that.

I fully expect the MoN to still be one of the most chosen options but I foresee a drop in the use of Plague marines and a rise in the use a merely nurgle marked marines, the MoN is only 3 pts a piece now, for +1T that is fantastic and atleast is uniform across the army.

Chosen:

Bottom option group in left column is the Special weapon one. it says "one chosen may replace......

And I assume it continues "His bolter with one of the following options"

http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss2/daboarder/page23b_zps482de482.jpg

[White Tiger88]

Hmm i am wondering what people are thinking is the best CC troop choice now? I am starting to think nurgle might out due khorne this edition....(FNP + poison???? Yum)

[eldargal]

Except that is bollocks, there was never any reason that being diseased would give FnP rather than an extra point of toughness, it's nurgle fanboys whining. It makes more sense this way, having the ones addicted to pain being FnP and the big diseased hunks of flesh with bits dropping off causing fear.

[HERO]

The pictures linked to over on Faeit. They may have been taken down, but I still have them loaded up - I realized that they would probably be taken down, hence I didn't close the pages or refresh them. Typhus is like he was in the most recent FAQ as far as the Manreaper goes, except it now makes him S6 and is no longer Poisoned (+4).

Also, on Daemon Princes, unless it says otherwise in their main profile, they are not Eternal Warriors and look like they are T5 (it is hard to tell). If they lose Eternal Warrior, I expect they must be T6, because otherwise any Monstrous Creature can kill them with Smash, which defeats the purpose of their insane Mephiston-esque profile.

I saw the pictures too, and for his Manreaper, it just said Daemon Weapon in addition to Unwieldy, +2S, AP2.
He had Mark of Nurgle under his profile as well.

None of the pictures-links-facts-rumors Ive seen so far has given me definitive proof of what Daemon Weapons do with Marks.

So..... gotta wait and see.

I will say this though, and this is quite funny. A while ago, there was a QnA on Fait with another Chaos leaker. I asked him this about Plague Marines - how much do they cost and what are they armed with. He told me they were 1 point more, had the same exact stats, come with poisoned 4+ melee weapons and still had blight grenades. In this new QnA, several posters asked if Plague Marines kept their FNP - this was met with no answers, dead silence. So if Plague Marines indeed lose their FNP, then marked 16pt Bolter Marines of Nurgle, or 18 with Veteran status vs. all loyalist Marines, then we have got ourselves a new winner in the new edition.

[Learn2Eel]

As to terminators,

Well you can't really make psuedo cultinators out of them because Kelly frakked up which icon gives which benefit, as in he's got the nurgle/slaaneshi ones around the worng way but I wont go into that.

I fully expect the MoN to still be one of the most chosen options but I foresee a drop in the use of Plague marines and a rise in the use a merely nurgle marked marines, the MoN is only 3 pts a piece now, for +1T that is fantastic and atleast is uniform across the army.

Chosen:

Bottom option group in left column is the Special weapon one. it says "one chosen may replace......

And I assume it continues "His bolter with one of the following options"

http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss2/daboarder/page23b_zps482de482.jpg

I think you're wrong about the chosen dude. Look at the one ABOVE the "one may take" section. You can clearly see meltaguns and plasma guns there as well, and that is under the "four may take".

Also, how is changing around what Icons do which mean you can't make Cult Terminators? The Icon of Nurgle causes Fear now, whilst the Icon of Slaanesh gives Feel No Pain, which makes perfect sense from a fluff and balance perspective. So yes, you can make pseudo-cult terminators. T5 with Fear. Rage, Counter Attack and Furious Charge. I5 and Feel No Pain. +4 Invulnerable save and Soul Blaze. You can also make them Fearless.
Agreed on the Mark of Nurgle. People were complaining Nurgle was getting a huge debuff by losing Feel No Pain, but hey, given Typhus still has it, it wouldn't be a stretch for Plague Marines to have it too. They also have some great new rules and options, like Plague Zombies.
However, I think there are going to be lots of viable armies along with Nurgle, and that is what I love so far. Slaanesh looks great as well, Tzeentch and Khorne also look ok if not good.

[daboarder]

The reference page with the rules does say what a daemon weapon does.

Its says they may make D6 additional attacks but if a one is rolled then they are WS1 for the remainder of the combat phase.

Eldargal,

Its not about having FNP because it fits, its about CONSISTENCY.

You wouldn't like it if for some reason the phoenix lords or autarchs didn't mesh with the appropriate squad would you, so why is it therefore ok that there is no consistency within the chaos codex?

If they dropped FNP from plague marines and priced them appropriately then I wouldn't really care, but the fact that my lord is supposedly LESS blessed than the rank and file makes NO SENSE. Especially when the guys next door seem to fit in with my lords troops better than he does.

learn2eel:

perhaps you are right, that wouldn't be bad I wouldn't mind taking a special squad like that as a line breaker.

[Learn2Eel]

Hmm i am wondering what people are thinking is the best CC troop choice now? I am starting to think nurgle might out due khorne this edition....(FNP + poison???? Yum)

Feel No Pain isn't a Nurgle thing anymore though, at least as far as giving it to units like Terminators and Chaos Space Marines. But I also think Slaanesh will be great in combat this edition too. Nurgle was king in 5th for Chaos Space Marines. Whilst Nurgle still sounds like the best, Slaanesh and Khorne also sound better than they were. Tzeentch....is a wait and see.

@daboarder, mate, you have to expect changes when a codex comes out. That's life. Daemon Princes have changed significantly too, but people are already looking at the different ways of using them now. Just adapt :)

I'm pretty sure, because you can see Meltaguns and Plasma Guns doubled in the section, once under what appears to be "one may take" at the bottom and again just above under the "up to four may take". I'm confident of that, but I guess it's something we can't really confirm yet. It's one of those things where I hope I am right, not for the sake of being right, but because it would be good for the codex. As you say, they'd be great as a linebreaker unit, and relatively cheap too. A similarly-outfitted Havocs squad in the old rules was a ridiculous cost, and that was for two less special weapons in a 6 man squad, and they weren't scoring like Chosen apparently can be with Abaddon.

[daboarder]

Yeah Khorne is well and ahead one of the best marks/icon this edition, the Nurgle mark is good but the icon is practically worthless.

then again from the points cost it appears the nurgle icons additional rules are almost an afterthought.

Confirmed:

Warp talons blind all enemies within 6' when they arrive, appears no rolls required.

thread that needle and bam half the enemy army is ineffectual for a turn.

mutilators are going to be VERY gamey, a lot of people are going to be using the soft options in the first round of combat and then hope to break the enemy in the second

[HERO]

Yeah Khorne is well and ahead one of the best marks/icon this edition, the Nurgle mark is good but the icon is practically worthless.

then again from the points cost it appears the nurgle icons additional rules are almost an afterthought.

Confirmed:

Warp talons blind all enemies within 6' when they arrive, appears no rolls required.

thread that needle and bam half the enemy army is ineffectual for a turn.

Honestly, I wouldnt even bother with the Icon.
T5 army wide should piss off enough people for it to not matter.
T5 Terminators, still good. T5 regular marine bolters, still good. No FNP? not an issue. As long as things get cheaper, thatś all that really matters.

Now, I wonder if Warp Talons, Ratpors or Havocs can take Marks and Icons....

[daboarder]

I'd say raptors, and havocs definitely can, maybe on the warp talons.

I think T6 bikers is going to be a lot cheaper this edition as well.

[Learn2Eel]

Berzerkers are the same on the charge, but worse base, but they are significantly cheaper, and have great wargear options, so it evens out. Khorne lists may actually be viable, even in 6th, simply because of how cheap it is. Put Khorne marks on the basic 13-point troops (even without the extra CCW) - profit. Also great for units like Mutilators.

Slaanesh was always the cheap and simple one, mostly providing an edge over other marines. But now that you combine it with the icon for Feel No Pain, Slaanesh lists look a lot more viable. Especially given Noise Marines are something like 16-17 points a model and their weapons all ignore cover and can fire ridiculous amounts of shots!

Nurgle mark is the best in most cases, and for only a very marginal points increase over the others. Agreed though, the icon isn't that great. But I guess they decided T5 with Feel No Pain was just too good compared to the other choices.
Tzeentch still appears to be getting the short end of the stick, but I guess we can say we can do crazy psyker spam lists or something. Also, the reduction in +4 cover saves is a bonus for us this edition, and we are slightly cheaper whilst also getting Soul Blaze. I'm happy, I can still make viable Tzeentch lists in my local area and not feel cheated.

[daboarder]

eh if they'd done the IoN right it would have been FNP, -1I would have made everyone happy, and you can't really argue that T5 FNP is OP in a world with paladins and necrons 5+ every phase

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I can live without FnP on Nurgle marines, as long as Plague Marines also don't have FnP /fingerscrossed

[HERO]

eh if they'd done the IoN right it would have been FNP, -1I would have made everyone happy, and you can't really argue that T5 FNP is OP in a world with paladins and necrons 5+ every phase

Coincidently, both of those are Ward books.
/zing!

[Learn2Eel]

Our Fast Attack slots will actually see use now, which is great. I'll be honest, I've never once used Fast Attack in a Chaos list.
I guess the big question is - will Chaos lists only use Fast Attack to get the Heldrake, or will people actually use Raptors/Warp Talons/Bikes in competitive lists (i.e. not just themed lists)?

Hopefully it is the latter. Raptors will probably be cheaper, by like a point or two. Our bikes, as it was, were terminally useless due to their significant cost increase compared to Loyalist bikes, having fewer special weapons, and not being able to be taken as troops. Whilst the last one is still true, hopefully the other two have been changed.

[daboarder]

I can live without FnP on Nurgle marines, as long as Plague Marines also don't have FnP /fingerscrossed

They do, I still think they are going to be FAR to expensive this edition, especially compared to say a GK.

[Learn2Eel]

eh if they'd done the IoN right it would have been FNP, -1I would have made everyone happy, and you can't really argue that T5 FNP is OP in a world with paladins and necrons 5+ every phase

I don't think anyone ever thought Plague Marines were OP in the meta, but they were definitely OP within their own codex. There was literally no reason to take Berzerkers, Noise Marines or Thousand Sons above Plague Marines for competitive play. Hence the points increase. But, as we've seen with Typhus, don't be surprised if Plague Marines still have Feel No Pain. There is now a reason to take Berzerkers, due to them being significantly cheaper and having great combat upgrades. Noise Marines can shoot the hell out of any infantry unit for a good price now too.

I don't know about that dude, they are a point more expensive than they were, but have gained Fear and also now have Poisoned Weapons (+4).

[HERO]

I can live without FnP on Nurgle marines, as long as Plague Marines also don't have FnP /fingerscrossed

Unfortunately, I think they will. Or else at 24 ppm, theyll be the laughing stock of the codex.
Phil Kelly actually knows how to write a balanced book in 40K. As funny as this sounds, I have never felt that Space Wolves were overpowered. It is just what other Space Marine books should have been.

[White Tiger88]

Well as i am trying to figure out what would be the best CC add-ons to allie into my Dkok i have some questions.....

1)Chaos Marines with mark of nurgle are better then plague marines?
2) Mutilators can deep-strike or use transports??? (I thought they couldn't for some reason...)
3)Possessed better options for CC troops then terminators over all for damage?
4)Khorne Beserkers, Plague marines...or Regular troops? (I am thinking regular with mark of nurgle now because of you guys!)

Oh and really why Couldn't they put in Erebus as a demon prince.......I mean who wouldn't want to shoot that model in the face?



Unfortunately, I think they will. Or else at 24 ppm, theyll be the laughing stock of the codex.
Phil Kelly actually knows how to write a balanced book in 40K. As funny as this sounds, I have never felt that Space Wolves were overpowered. It is just what other Space Marine books should have been.

No that will always be thousand sons for some reason........(They look the coolest and always get the shaft...)

[Learn2Eel]

Unfortunately, I think they will. Or else at 24 ppm, theyll be the laughing stock of the codex.
Phil Kelly actually knows how to write a balanced book in 40K. As funny as this sounds, I have never felt that Space Wolves were overpowered. It is just what other Space Marine books should of been.

Exactly. When the confirmed rules were first being leaked, many people were shaken, probably because nothing was leaping out of the page as OP. Everything looked decent or good. But the big thing about Kelly codexes is not units themselves, but the internal balance of the entire codex, and that is why I think complaints about the balance of the codex have mostly dissipated. As we are seeing more and more, we see that stuff that didn't look that great is a lot cheaper points wise than we thought, or does things in regards to other units we didn't know about.

[Learn2Eel]

Well as i am trying to figure out what would be the best CC add-ons to allie into my Dkok i have some questions.....

1)Chaos Marines with mark of nurgle are better then plague marines?
2) Mutilators can deep-strike or use transports??? (I thought they couldn't for some reason...)
3)Possessed better options for CC troops then terminators over all for damage?
4)Khorne Beserkers, Plague marines...or Regular troops? (I am thinking regular with mark of nurgle now because of you guys!)

Oh and really why Couldn't they put in Erebus as a demon prince.......I mean who wouldn't want to shoot that model in the face?

1) I wouldn't say better, but they will definitely be significantly cheaper. However, these is also the school of thought that having Feel No Pain and Poisoned Weapons is worth the price hike though.
2) They can deep-strike, yes. They can't take a dedicated transport, but there's nothing in their rules that says they can't be mounted in a transport. The same goes for Obliterators - in the old codex, they couldn't, but nothing says they can't now. And because Mutilators and Obliterators aren't in terminator armour, they can ride in Rhinos too (though they are bulky)!
3) Cheaper yes, for efficiency that is hard to say. Possessed get the random abilities thing, which can at any time make them have AP3 or make them monstrous creature hunters (poison).
4) Berzerkers are fantastic in combat for the cost. Four attacks each at WS5 S5 on the charge for 15 points a model.

[White Tiger88]

1) I wouldn't say better, but they will definitely be significantly cheaper. However, these is also the school of thought that having Feel No Pain and Poisoned Weapons is worth the price hike though.
2) They can deep-strike, yes. They can't take a dedicated transport, but there's nothing in their rules that says they can't be mounted in a transport. The same goes for Obliterators - in the old codex, they couldn't, but nothing says they can't now. And because Mutilators and Obliterators aren't in terminator armour, they can ride in Rhinos too (though they are bulky)!
3) Cheaper yes, for efficiency that is hard to say. Possessed get the random abilities thing, which can at any time make them have AP3 or make them monstrous creature hunters (poison).
4) Berzerkers are fantastic in combat for the cost. Four attacks each at WS5 S5 on the charge for 15 points a model.

Well damn! thanks for quick answer. I really am having a hard time picking cheap and effective CC support to deal with pesky units that get to close to my DKOK Guns.....

[HERO]

They do, I still think they are going to be FAR to expensive this edition, especially compared to say a GK.

Compared to a GK, I think the Plague Marines (in current form, but 24ppm with Poisoned weapons) are fairly priced. They can take far less damage from small arms fire, and actually save vs. the likes of AP3-1. Poisoned Weapons with Tallyman are utterly ridiculous. This is another reason why I think Nurgle Terminators got the shaft of no FNP. Once Tallyman reaches 3+ FNP, the entire army, literally, does, not, die.

For everyone saying Nurgle is dead seriously forgot about Epidemis.

Just remember that the rumors point towards a very Chaosy year. WIth WoC next, and Daemons of Chaos - both 40K and WHFB by the end of the year. I think weĺl see the Tallyman change, but for now, Nurgle-heavy players will bring him in every game.

[daboarder]

Compared to a GK, I think the Plague Marines (in current form, but 24ppm with Poisoned weapons) are fairly priced. They can take far less damage from small arms fire, and actually save vs. the likes of AP3-1. Poisoned Weapons with Tallyman are utterly ridiculous. This is another reason why I think Nurgle Terminators got the shaft of no FNP. Once Tallyman reaches 3+ FNP, the entire army, literally, does, not, die.

For everyone saying Nurgle is dead seriously forgot about Epidemis.

please, I've played with the epi list and it can be god damned hilarious, but its not seriously competitive.

Suffers to much against low model armies and in high model armies relies to much on an easy to neutralise character.

and I don't think anyone has said nurgle is dead. I know all I said was that I think Plague marines aren't going to be worth the points, too much for just FNP when compared to more marines with T5 for only 3+ pts a peice. I mean for 16 points I can get a T5 marine....that's awesome. hilariously the MoN is cheaper per model than the GK Psybolts that neutralize it are.

[HERO]

please, I've played with the epi list and it can be god damned hilarious, but its not seriously competitive.

Suffers to much against low model armies and in high model armies relies to much on an easy to neutralise character.

With the new book? Im looking at Epi with the new book thats coming out, not the old current one.
16 point T5 Marines man. You can sleep easy tonight, dont worry.

[Learn2Eel]

With the new book? Im looking at Epi with the new book thats coming out, not the old current one.
16 point T5 Marines man. You can sleep easy tonight, dont worry.

That is borderline cheesy. Who cares if they only have 1 attack base? Dakka dakka! It's what I was saying before - our basic marines are so cheap without the combat upgrade, we can spam them to hell. Pair them with Mark of Nurgle and plonk them on an objective with some special/heavy weapons. Watch your opponent weep. I worked it out, that's 190 points for a 10 man squad, Mark of Nurgle, Champion included, and two autocannons (one on the Champion) or two meltaguns. Ridiculous. Oh, and you can take an icon that makes them Fearless for 25 points.

Oh, noticed something else about the Daemon Prince. He's 145 base but he MUST be dedicated to one of the Chaos gods. To tell you the truth, that makes a LOT of sense. And considering they are all either 15 points or 10 points (Slaanesh being 10, the rest 15) that's ok by me.

[daboarder]

yeah and I think if I'm reading it right I'm going to be able to take T5 terminators with Paired claws for less than 45 points per......tasty.

It still irritates me that I can't get FNP and therefore have all my squads 7 strong with double Special, but ah well. This will probably fit my army better seeing as its a Nurgle blood angel force not a deathguard one.

[Learn2Eel]

yeah and I think if I'm reading it right I'm going to be able to take T5 terminators with Paired claws for less than 45 points per......tasty.

It still irritates me that I can't get FNP and therefore have all my squads 7 strong with double Special, but ah well. This will probably fit my army better seeing as its a Nurgle blood angel force not a deathguard one.

And you thought Nurgle was getting the short end of the stick! :p Haha, just joking. Still, that's 5 points more than standard Loyalist Terminators for the loss of Combat Tactics/ATSKNF but the gaining of T5. T5, on Terminators, I think makes up for what they don't get.

[daboarder]

yes and no,

I've always had a love hate relationship with Nurgle terminators. They've typically been VERY expencive for what you get and usually mean that a list doesn't have the target saturation to prevent them from getting blasted by anti-tank weapons.

HOWEVER, I've recently been running 2 squads backed up by some oblits and plague marines, I think with this new codex I'll drop the plagues to regular marines and go for numbers.

So for the bulk of my force I'm thinking ten man CSM squads with MoN, not bothering with the CCW and taking veterans of the long war.

Take Abby or Typhus as mood dictates with a Nurgle retinue of 6 terminators (You should see my nurgle terminators they are beutiful)

Back that up with either a pair of dreads and some big 10 man havoc/Chosen special squads, or go with 2 squads of mutilators and 3 squads of oblits. But I think its the 17 pt Hatred T5 marines that are going to be mean

I'm really tempted go for a nurgle raptor flanking force but if the MoN is only 3pts across the board (and thats usually how GW pricing works) then the bikes are going to be really mean and I've already got the models for that.

[White Tiger88]

And you thought Nurgle was getting the short end of the stick! :p Haha, just joking. Still, that's 5 points more than standard Loyalist Terminators for the loss of Combat Tactics/ATSKNF but the gaining of T5. T5, on Terminators, I think makes up for what they don't get.

Thats..just...Nasty and awesome at once, Can you say Chaos Lord bodyguard? (or do they need the same mark as the lord...)

[daboarder]

hmm they MAY brin back the old "may only join a unit with the same mark" restriction.

This codex is very much reading like a 3.1 ed codex

[White Tiger88]

hmm they MAY brin back the old "may only join a unit with the same mark" restriction.

This codex is very much reading like a 3.1 ed codex

IF not im going to have fun sending a khorne lord with nurgle terminators to see what happens to my enemy :D

[daboarder]

yeah the best thing about that is that you dont CARE about the loss of ATSKNF in that situation as the lord is fearless

[Learn2Eel]

yeah the best thing about that is that you dont CARE about the loss of ATSKNF in that situation as the lord is fearless

Exactly. Take the good with the bad - the units that aren't Fearless can be made Fearless by being a Lords' retinue, or by taking a 25 point Icon - that Icon which also universally gives you +1 to combat resolution and prevents deep strike scatter.

[White Tiger88]

Exactly. Take the good with the bad - the units that aren't Fearless can be made Fearless by being a Lords' retinue, or by taking a 25 point Icon - that Icon which also universally gives you +1 to combat resolution and prevents deep strike scatter.

.....hmmm 25pts to keep a squad worth about 400 (with the lords cost..im assuming there not cheap with demon weapons) alive, Ya i think i can afford that! I mean really this book is sounding more and more fun just to see what crazy unit mix's you can throw at people.

[Learn2Eel]

.....hmmm 25pts to keep a squad worth about 400 (with the lords cost..im assuming there not cheap with demon weapons) alive, Ya i think i can afford that! I mean really this book is sounding more and more fun just to see what crazy unit mix's you can throw at people.

Don't worry about the icon for your Lords unit, being Fearless, he confers it to the squad :D

[daboarder]

yeah the icon isn't bad either, probably say that its a little overcosted on something that can be sniped but still not bad.

I think however NUMBERS are going to be the king of this codex. use the CSM load out flexibillity to tailor your units to their job without worrying about rules bloat.

as in , combat squad, drop the Bolter to CCW for free and take MoN 16pts T5 2 attacks base.

the more I think about it the more I like that 16 pt T5 chassis

[Learn2Eel]

yeah the icon isn't bad either, probably say that its a little overcosted on something that can be sniped but still not bad.

I think however NUMBERS are going to be the king of this codex. use the CSM load out flexibillity to tailor your units to their job without worrying about rules bloat.

as in , combat squad, drop the Bolter to CCW for free and take MoN 16pts T5 2 attacks base.

the more I think about it the more I like that 16 pt T5 chasis

Exactly. It sounds quite a bit like Space Wolves, just with even more options. 10-man squads with two meltaguns in a rhino is really cheap. You can even have two meltaguns in five man squads in rhinos! What you suggested is great also. It makes sense I think. We have the options to really tailor our basic troops; make them MSU special weapon carriers, make them horde-style objective holders, make them tough-as-nails combat monsters, turn them into elite marines that will slaughter other marines, etc. This is why I am really excited. Our basic troop already looks to have several viable builds going for it already, and the ability to make so many different units basically out of the one codex entry is nuts.

Icons are also priced appropriately I think (except maybe the Fearless one, maybe 5 points too expensive). Fear is 10, Soul Blaze is 15 points, Furious Charge is 20, Fearless is 25, Feel No Pain is 30. Sounds right to me. Also, anyone notice that even the basic aspiring champion can take gift of mutation, for 10 points? A free roll on the chart that is likely to lead to a good buff is pretty rad. The average roll of 2D6 is about 7 I think, meaning a 3 and a 4. That's either a 3 for your 10s and a 4 for your 1s or vice-versa. So, if you roll one of those (the average dice roll), you will either get Shrouded, or Poisoned melee attacks. Nice for 10 points - I think Shrouded applies to the whole unit too? Not sure. Or say you roll a 6 - your champion is now T5. Combine that with Mark of Nurgle for a T6 Champion :D

[daboarder]

not sure where your getting the 5-man 2 melta's from?

Why do you think that the champions will have access to the heavy and special weapons? I don't think they will be in the armoury mate.

[Learn2Eel]

not sure where your getting the 5-man 2 melta's from?

Why do you think that the champions will have access to the heavy and special weapons? I don't think they will be in the armoury mate.

They have access to the Ranged Weapons section of the Wargear list (and/or Melee Weapons). I don't think that would be there if it meant all they could take was bolt pistols/boltguns.
I think our Aspiring Champions are going to be very fun in this edition. It actually sounds like you can make them mini-HQs - for a cost.

Looking at the QnA compilation on Faeit now, will update shortly.

Marks and Icons can't be mixed/matched - you need to take the appropriate Icon to fit your Mark, and vice-versa.
Dark Apostle has a 6" bubble where all units can use his Leadership of 10. Obviously meant for Cultist blobs.
Kharn is 160 points.

Abaddon - 265 points! 10 point price reduction for slightly less combat power but much better army-changing abilities. Chosen can indeed be taken as Troops. Both the Talon and Drachnyen strike at Initiative order (we already knew that I guess).
Lucius - same as before really, no word on points cost. Has a special rule for challenges - likely the "attacks number is = to opponents WS" rumoured rule.

Noise Marines are 17 points each, no word on cost of Sonic Weapons.
Plague Marines indeed have Feel No Pain (rejoice!)

Some of the stuff he posted seems to be wrong, mindful (most likely mistranslation or didn't have a full look). He says Mutilators are 55 each but we think from the image they are 35 each.
Cultists can take Marks for only 1-2 points per model (!).
Bikes are 20 points each (!) - 13 point drop!
Warptalons are 30 points each, are Daemons and thus a +5 invul. Can take marks, but not icons.
Raptors can take marks and icons. Given how cheap bikes are now, I'm guessing Raptors must be very cheap.

Obliterators can take Marks (we kind knew that though as Mutilators can). Mark of Nurgle for T5! No more lascannon-sniping my Obliterators!
Forgefiend apparently comes with 2 Hades Autocannons, it isn't clear but it seems to be +25 to replace them with Ectoplasm cannons. No word on the third one, or if the +25 points is actually per Ectoplasm cannon.
It looks like the Forgefiend without the three Ectoplasm cannons will be around the 150-160 price range. 15-25 points more than a Psyflemen dread for potentially twice the shots, a +5 invulnerable save, It Will Not Die, ignoring shaken and stunned on a +2, etc sounds good to me!

[daboarder]

if its like the old one then its only going to b e things like, Plasma pistols, combi-weapons, and a few other nicks and nacks, it wont be heavy weapons and special weapons that's for sure.

[Learn2Eel]

if its like the old one then its only going to b e things like, Plasma pistols, combi-weapons, and a few other nicks and nacks, it wont be heavy weapons and special weapons that's for sure.

I don't know dude, it just says Ranged Weapons section. We'll see I guess, and if not, that's ok. It's just one less special weapon.

Come to think of it, Tastytaste said the Forgefiend was 120 base. If the Ectoplasm cannons are +25 each, that would equate to three being +75 for 195. A 5 point gap between the rumours, or is the Forgefiend really around 160-170 base with the Hades Autocannons?

Also, Land Raider apparently is unchanged but now 230 points.

Hey, has anyone noticed that we appear to be the first codex that can mix and match both codex and BRB powers? According to the army list entry, sorcerer lords pick (roll) from Biomancy, Pyromancy or Telepathy up to their mastery level. If we take a Mark, we must take at least one power from the lore of the corresponding mark. It says at least one. That implies we don't have to take all of them from that lore. However, given the wording that he generates his powers from the BRB lores and NOT the codex ones, I think that means we can only take for example Tzeentch powers if we have the Mark of Tzeentch. But again, it comes back to the "at least one". Unless there's something we don't know, it looks like we can take both BRB and codex powers simultaneously!

[daboarder]

eh the land raider still suffers from the same problem it always has and that is why the loyalists get redeemers and crusaders.

I like the idea of a 23-25 pt bike with T6....I like it a lot.


POOR ELDAR, another craftworld gets punked, this time by emperor's children. (Lugganath)

[Learn2Eel]

I agree, it sucks we don't have any other variants. And a +5 point increase? Who knows I guess, lol.

Yeah, definitely. Considering you used to have to pay a flat rate for the squad that was ridiculous, especially coupled with how over-costed bikes already were....Nurgle bikers were always great, but way too expensive. Now, it looks like they will be cheap, and thus viable.

[eldargal]

Details?:(

POOR ELDAR, another craftworld gets punked, this time by emperor's children. (Lugganath)

[Learn2Eel]

Details?:(

It was pretty. Terrible Slaanesh joke there.

Someone on Faeit says that Mutilators are indeed 55 points each. If that's true, then that sucks. But hey, I guess you just deep strike them. I guess it makes sense given they have pairs of weapons that would cost Terminators at least 15 points per weapon.

[daboarder]

Basically the emperors children attack Lugganath while being psychically shielded, the eldar kill the first attack wave but the emperors children use numbers to swamp them and are able to establish a teleport relay upon the craft world and bring in re-enforcements. The eldar are able to prevent their expansion into other parts of the craftworld but the emperors children turn their guns on the centre of a plaza and basically turn it into a giant speaker, breaking the craftworld using sonic resonance to fill the air with screams and crack the crystal structure of the craftworld...

Point of note, final fate of the craftworld is never explicitly stated.

reads a little bit like a small fall (as in contains what could be parallels to the birth of slaanesh)

left page bottom right of it

https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/?ui=2&ik=8eb5c73c62&view=att&th=139e905684e7f585&attid=0.1&disp=inline&realattid=f_h7db8l4n0&safe=1&zw&saduie=AG9B_P-iKhFWKACh9so1g1zld1en&sadet=1348469445873&sads=O-cdyFV75_9fDqhlBDGsg-r-0S8

edit: I did say mutilators were likely going to be 55, that did not look like a 3 on the scan, and it makes sense given oblit costing.

[eldargal]

Can someone upload it to BoLs, I don't have a google account.

[Learn2Eel]

Basically the emperors children attack Lugganath while being psychically shielded, the eldar kill the first attack wave but the emperors children use numbers to swamp them and are able to establish a teleport relay upon the craft world and bring in re-enforcements. The eldar are able to prevent their expansion into other parts of the craftworld but the emperors children turn their guns on the centre of a plaza and basically turn it into a giant speaker, breaking the craftworld using sonic resonance to fill the air with screams and crack the crystal structure of the craftworld...

Point of note, final fate of the craftworld is never explicitly stated.

reads a little bit like a small fall (as in contains what could be parallels to the birth of slaanesh)

left page bottom right of it

https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/?ui=2&ik=8eb5c73c62&view=att&th=139e905684e7f585&attid=0.1&disp=inline&realattid=f_h7db8l4n0&safe=1&zw&saduie=AG9B_P-iKhFWKACh9so1g1zld1en&sadet=1348469445873&sads=O-cdyFV75_9fDqhlBDGsg-r-0S8

That is so awesome! If kind of disturbing.
Yeah if Mutilators are 55 then they definitely aren't as good an option as I thought they were. Still decent though.

Someone on Faeit also said they saw Defilers in the codex, and they are a whopping 195 base now :eek:
Well I guess we all knew it was going to happen, 150 for a 4HP Fleet Battle Cannon was great, makes sense that they've re-priced it for 6th edition rules. Also has It Will Not Die and +5 invulnerable save, Daemon Forge, etc. No word on any other changes.

[daboarder]

Can someone upload it to BoLs, I don't have a google account.

not sure how to make it big enough to read on BoLs... Let me try some things

http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss2/daboarder/page23a_zps9190edf7.jpg

edlargal, hit me up with your email in a PM and I'll send you the big easy to read version of the picture

[eldargal]

Well Lugganath is still active in M41 and that page goes up to M38 so clearly it wasn't a mortal blow, so yay.

[daboarder]

glad to make you happy, Good spot on the dates too.

[eldargal]

Reading it over (thanks daboarder) it's quite good really, I mean yes a lot of damage is done but both sides come out ok in terms of how they were written, no eldar acting like Orks.

[daboarder]

mm I read through the other stories on that page as well, they are pretty good. I like the Mortarion one btu the Beasts of annihilation ones is really good.

[eldargal]

The Thousand Sons one was good also.

[daboarder]

yeah that was cool and I can really imagine them acting like that given the rubic.

[Learn2Eel]

Me want read :( Haha.
I'm reading my WD now, wow the Mortarion one is sick.

Oh my god, that Thousand Sons one is so epic. I really didn't see that coming, but it makes sense, and it is so cool. Good work Loyalists, ignore the dusty statues of Thousand Sons around you and then get obliterated by said statues.

[daboarder]

I really really hope I manage to score either copy 666 or 777 of the limited ed codex.

And I probably will be doing my daemonforge/Tzeentch army given the new codex after I've upgraded my nurgle marines.

[Learn2Eel]

I'm definitely going to start buying regular Chaos Marines. I'll keep my Thousand Sons squads for themed lists or as the elite backbone of my army lists. I am really looking forward to completely outnumbering my foe with damned space marines! I'll have to have a think about Cultists, I'll wait for their box to come out. I'm really excited about all the new stuff, and it is proof that GW have succeeded in their goal. I already want to do a Typhus/Zombie list, a "Sonic Boom" list, and a World Eaters army with crap tons of Berzerkers. I want to add Havocs with Flakk Missiles, I want two Heldrakes, I want Ahriman, Abaddon, Typhus, I want some more Chaos Lords and Sorcerer Lords, I want a Warpsmith to do artillery/long-range firepower Chaos lists, I want a Dark Apostle for a Cultist heavy army, I want Berzerkers and Noise Marines, I want Raptors, I want Obliterators, I want the Forge/Maulerfiends.....

You get the drift. I am so goddam excited. This codex looks so amazing to me. The rules definitely aren't OP (as far as we can tell), the balance appears to be really good, the coloured artwork and style of the codex is amazing, the fluff looks awesome, the rules look fun and unique, there are so many potential army lists.....etc.

[Learn2Eel]

Hey guys, anyone realized that Kharn also has Hatred (Space Marines) because he would have Veterans of the Long War?
Yeah. 2s to hit with re-rolls! Then 2s to kill if he charged. And if the rumour about generating additional attacks for every model he kills is true.....woah.

Let's put this into perspective.
Kharn VS 10 Space Marines.
Kharn strikes at I5, 7 attacks on the charge. 2s to hit with re-rolls - all hit. 2s to wound. 6 casualties. 4 Marines strike back, hitting twice, wounding once, armour save passed.
Kharn then does an additional 6 attacks at I1. 2s to hit with re-rolls - all hit. 2s to wound. Squad wiped out.
The big boy just made his points back.

Now pair him up with seven Berzerkers.....

Actually, this just made me think how brutal our characters - especially the special characters - are all going to be against Loyalists (remembering that our Hatred and Preferred Enemy against Space Marines includes ALL codex chapters, so vanilla marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, etc).

Ahriman is S6 AP3 at WS5 I5 A3 base. Nothing fancy, but with 3s to hit against regular marines with re-rolls and then 2s to kill, that's nasty for any psyker. He will kill three or four marines on the charge on average.

Typhus is S6 AP2 at WS6 I1 A3 +D6 base. Phenomenal character/terminator hunter, especially as he is immune to most power fists/thunder hammers. Averaging 4 bonus attacks for 8 eight attacks on the charge. 3s to hit with-rerolls, 2s to kill. Averaging something like five or six kills on the charge.

Abaddon.....dear lord. WS7 I6 A4. Gets +2 on the charge. Let's see; Talon of Horus. S8 AP3 Shred. 3s to hit with re-rolls, 2s to kill with re-rolls. Averaging about 4-5 kills. Drachnyen. Averaging +4 attacks for 10 attacks on the charge. 3s to hit with re-rolls, 3s to kill. It will be something like 8-9 hits and then 6-7 kills.

And our basic Chaos Lords are going to be like this? Wow!
Oh, and Daemon Princes have Veterans of the Long War too. I wonder if that has already been included on their profile - would that mean they are LD9 or LD10? Plus, Hatred on a Daemon Prince that now has an uber statline (at least, in regards to WS, I, A, etc). Hot tip - give it Daemon of Khorne for Furious Charge and wings, send it at your opponents HQs, laugh. 6 attacks on the charge at WS9, I8, re-rolling to hit against Marines. :eek: Also, it will be interesting just to see what other wargear options it can take. Daemon Princes have been nerfed, sure, but that doesn't mean they aren't still kick-***. It just means they should be reserved for 1999-2000 games (lol) and used differently to how they were.

It's funny though, you can pay to make Daemon Princes psykers (up to Mastery Level 3 - Biomancy FTW!). If you pay for the Mark of Tzeentch (for example), Wings, Iron Armour, Mastery Level 3, you are looking at 295 points. And on top of that, you can take Chaos Rewards and Chaos Artefacts. It is very easy to spend 300+ points on a Daemon Prince now. Apocalypse!

On that note, we haven't seen Chaos Artefacts yet, have we? I really wonder what those are.....

[Caitsidhe]

In my area the size of games has been dramatically dropping due to the slower speed of the new rules. I don't actually have to buy anything new in that respect. There are a lot of shill posts in this thread. Learn to be subtle; we aren't stupid. My own view is that I have no intention (or interest) in playing massive horde armies wherein the two sides spend 3-4 hours shooting at each other. Buckets of dice has never been that interesting. I'm glad to see (judging by the way all local events are being run) that I'm not alone in that. When I want to play the slots, I go to Vegas.

[Learn2Eel]

I love what the psyker entry in the rulebook says about Mastery Level 4 psykers;

"Psykers with a Mastery Level of 4 or higher are incredibly rare, and it is better for the galaxy that this is so - they are almost unbelievably powerful, and rarely submit to any authority other than their own."

Really puts into perspective how Ahriman being the game's first Mastery Level 4 psyker is a big step forward. For the time being at least, he's going to be the most powerful psyker in the game in terms of psychic ability.
It also makes me think about who will become Mastery Level 4 in re-done codexes. Eldrad is the only one that stands out. I don't think Mephiston or Tigurius are as powerful (psychic ability wise) as Ahriman or Eldrad. Probably Fateweaver if Chaos Daemons are changed to count as psykers? The wording of that rulebook entry also implies we may see higher than Mastery Level 4. The way I see it, Magnus will be in the Horus Heresy books.

Just some fact fiddling. Got time to waste lol. On that note, what is suppossed to happen when/if Ahriman finds the Black Library? I've seen people mention he would become a Chaos god, or, as per the codexes, he would orchestrate the Imperium's downfall.

[Learn2Eel]

BoK has new pictures up, looking at Kharn's right now.

Rumours were true. The guy has Hatred and confers it to his unit. Jesus Christ (pardon me). 2s with re-rolls and 2s to kill space marines on the charge!? Berzerkers needing 3s to hit with re-rolls and 3s to wound!?
My lord. Kharn will have 7 attacks on the charge, but still unable to tell if Gorechild is counted as a power axe or not.

So far for special character Warlord traits:

Abaddon - Preferred Enemy (Space Marines) 12" bubble
Ahriman - D3 Infantry units have Infiltrate
Typhus - Causes Fear
Kharn - Has Hatred, confers to unit

Unknown:
Lucius - no idea
Fabius Bile - guessing he has the one to re-roll Chaos Boons
Huron Blackheart - no idea

I like our Warlord traits by the way. They are consistently decent. Fear is meh, Hatred is great, Preferred Enemy is great, Infiltrate is great, re-roll Chaos Boons is good, Soul Blaze is ok.
The ones our special characters have also make sense from a fluff viewpoint. Abaddon is very much used to fighting and killing Loyalists. Ahriman is a master of divination (ironically). Typhus is one of the most feared Chaos Lords in the Imperium. Kharn hates everything! From a fluff viewpoint, it is hard to see which ones the other three will get, aside from maybe Fabius re-rolling Boons of chaos. It would be awesome if Lucius had Hatred!

Just to confirm also, Plague Marines indeed have Plagueswords base, in addition to everything they had before. A point of Leadership lower, but I am guessing (unless they and other cult units have it base) they can take Veterans of the Long War. So really, a point more than they were for 1 less leadership and poisoned attacks? That sounds more like a buff to me :)

[Caitsidhe]

BoK has new pictures up, looking at Kharn's right now.

Rumours were true. The guy has Hatred and confers it to his unit. Jesus Christ (pardon me). 2s with re-rolls and 2s to kill space marines on the charge!? Berzerkers needing 3s to hit with re-rolls and 3s to wound!?
My lord. Kharn will have 7 attacks on the charge, but still unable to tell if Gorechild is counted as a power axe or not.

Assuming this pans out, neither Kharn nor a single KB will ever reach hand to hand combat. Who cares? They could have ten attacks each and it wouldn't matter. The issue is getting dedicated close combat units into combat in a meta wherein the gun rules all. I don't know how much playing you have been doing since 6th Edition came out but even getting Plague Marines (old style with FNP 4+) into combat was difficult. This Edition has, more or less, put all close combat specialists in the same boat as Genestealers. They might be hell on wheels in close combat but the only place they are actually going is hell. We all remain hopeful that there will be some reliable way to get them into combat, but so far there is not.


Abaddon - Preferred Enemy (Space Marines) 12" bubble

There will have to be a LOT more than this or he is not worth his points with the change in personal weaponry. If (since he has all the different marks) he counts as making all Cult troops scoring units, he might make the board.


Ahriman - D3 Infantry units have Infiltrate

Infiltrate doesn't wow me. If it was D3 units/models period had infiltrate I would be more impressed.


Typhus - Causes Fear

Really? You mean like a large portion of our army? You mean that power that a huge number of Codex are immune to? :D


Kharn - Has Hatred, confers to unit

I think it would be better if he gave them invisibility because they will have a hard time ever getting into actual combat.


I like our Warlord traits by the way. They are consistently decent. Fear is meh, Hatred is great, Preferred Enemy is great, Infiltrate is great, re-roll Chaos Boons is good, Soul Blaze is ok.

The Warlord Traits are solid.

[Learn2Eel]

Assuming this pans out, neither Kharn nor a single KB will ever reach hand to hand combat. Who cares? They could have ten attacks each and it wouldn't matter. The issue is getting dedicated close combat units into combat in a meta wherein the gun rules all. I don't know how much playing you have been doing since 6th Edition came out but even getting Plague Marines (old style with FNP 4+) into combat was difficult. This Edition has, more or less, put all close combat specialists in the same boat as Genestealers. They might be hell on wheels in close combat but the only place they are actually going is hell. We all remain hopeful that there will be some reliable way to get them into combat, but so far there is not.



There will have to be a LOT more than this or he is not worth his points with the change in personal weaponry. If (since he has all the different marks) he counts as making all Cult troops scoring units, he might make the board.



Infiltrate doesn't wow me. If it was D3 units/models period had infiltrate I would be more impressed.



Really? You mean like a large portion of our army? You mean that power that a huge number of Codex are immune to? :D



I think it would be better if he gave them invisibility because they will have a hard time ever getting into actual combat.



The Warlord Traits are solid.

I've played dozens of 6th Edition 40K games. The trick with dedicated CC units is to keep them cheap and take multiples, not single deathstars. Getting them into combat is harder, but that is why you focus on occupying your opponents attention with chaff and more threatening targets. You need to think about how each element of your army compliments each other. Necron flyer spam might be king at the moment but that is a cheese list that will soon be brought back in line. Kharn is cheap as chips for 160. What you are virtually saying is there is no point in taking any of our HQs, as virtually all of them are there for combat - barring sorcerer lords and Ahriman. I've adapted to the meta and I haven't lost with Chaos Space Marines (yeah, the old UP 4th edition codex) so far in 6th. People will find ways to make it work. Especially when Berzerkers are now 15 points a model.

Umm.....the change is minor, you realize? He's either S5 AP2 with +D6 attacks or S8 AP3 Shred. Instead of just flat out killing everything, the controlling player has a choice - and one that makes using him more interesting. Considering most +2 armoured units are T4, Abaddon will still wound them on 3s whilst generating additional attacks. His lightning claw will wreck walkers, transports and anything with an armour save worse than +2 in the game. He's still one of the most frightening combat monsters in the game, but he now actually provides buffs for your army. Given your comment about how many games I've played in this edition, you should know Preferred Enemy is very good in the new rules. A 12" bubble is also very good, and it is against every Loyalist codex. Which armies are the most common? Abaddon also has Hatred (Space Marines), which is a big buff as his problem before was not being able to re-roll misses. Against Marines, he can also re-roll to wound on 1s with Drachnyen. He makes Chosen troops. And yes, as he counts as having all of the Marks of Chaos, I would imagine he makes cult units troops as well. And guess what? He is 265 points. That's a buff no matter how you slice it. Slightly reduced combat effectiveness against Terminators for a big buff to how he affects and benefits your army for a points decease?
Also, I wouldn't at all be surprised if, when people inevitably complain about his slightly reduced combat effectiveness, they FAQ it to make his weapons stack. Because S10, AP2, Shred, +D6 attacks, I6 isn't OP at all for 265 points, plus Hatred and Preferred Enemy (Space Marines) and making Chosen troops.

It's still good. The uses of it are pretty obvious. It's virtually Creed's ability, minus the vehicles but potentially two more.

No-one said Fear was great. But it DOES make sense from a fluff perspective. And given how good Typhus is already for 230 points (he is a boss in the new rules - and some people are still adamant the blurred picture says S x2 and not S +2) that isn't a big worry. It will be funny when it works though, and it can help against blob units.

Cheap as chips, don't make one big unit, take multiple smaller ones, make them a smaller part of a larger force. Bargain-bin price for what they do. Spread the love in terms of target saturation. Keep your opponent guessing. All common 6th Edition themes that still make melee units viable in the right circumstances. And really, if you don't think power-armoured marines will make combat then I will really start laughing. They will make combat. Marines are still marines. Just because shooting is king doesn't mean melee is completely useless. That is just stupid. And if you are worried and actually do want to do the big unit, chuck them in a Land Raider. Or, even better, a Storm Eagle.

One doesn't apply to half of the codexes, the other one also doesn't apply to half the codexes. The rest are genuinely good or decent for any game. And seeing how Space Marines are so common, the Preferred Enemy one is pretty awesome.

[Caitsidhe]

I've played dozens of 6th Edition 40K games. The trick with dedicated CC units is to keep them cheap and take multiples, not single deathstars. Getting them into combat is harder, but that is why you focus on occupying your opponents attention with chaff and more threatening targets. You need to think about how each element of your army compliments each other. Necron flyer spam might be king at the moment but that is a cheese list that will soon be brought back in line. Kharn is cheap as chips for 160. What you are virtually saying is there is no point in taking any of our HQs, as virtually all of them are there for combat - barring sorcerer lords and Ahriman. I've adapted to the meta and I haven't lost with Chaos Space Marines (yeah, the old UP 4th edition codex) so far in 6th. People will find ways to make it work. Especially when Berzerkers are now 15 points a model.

That is a very impressive record. I consider myself a good player and my average ratio is two wins per one loss. I'm always impressed and amazed by those with perfect scores in a game with so many random elements. You must be a master at the appropriate skill set, and have a wonderful surplus of luck for those right rolls. I am not saying there is no point in taking our HQ selections. I'm saying based on what we know so far (which isn't much) they aren't that helpful. Close combat specialists have to reach combat. More importantly they have to stay engaged in combat. What most people seem to overlook is that a good opponent is going to position (in the flying v) so that even if you reach him/her there is a very good chance what you reach will die, models will end up not engaged, and combat will end. The harder you hit the more likely you will disintegrate the models reached will vaporize leaving you holding the bag. This means it is even MORE important that you not only reach your opponent but that you are able to engage with EVERYTHING (easier said than done). I'm sure a man of your win record and skill understands the implications? Putting Kharn in a unit of KB and sending them hellbent to leather across the field means they get shot a lot on the way. You can't bunch them up because then they get hit with pie plates. If you string them out they are victims of their own success as they hit the initial models, kill them, and combat ends with the bulk of the opposing unit intact. Then they get the crap shot out of them again.


Umm.....the change is minor, you realize? He's either S5 AP2 with +D6 attacks or S8 AP3 Shred.

I don't consider the change from AP-2 to AP-3 minor. I consider it the crux of the matter. The only reason I would drop that many points on a model (he is extremely expensive) is if he can deal with Terminators. We have better choices for killing regular AP-3 armor. If Abby makes all the Cult troops (I don't give a fig about Chosen) troops, he would be valuable. Likewise there might be other perks. What we have seen thus far, however, doesn't give me any reason to field him.


Cheap as chips, don't make one big unit, take multiple smaller ones, make them a smaller part of a larger force. Bargain-bin price for what they do. Spread the love in terms of target saturation. Keep your opponent guessing. All common 6th Edition themes that still make melee units viable in the right circumstances. And really, if you don't think power-armoured marines will make combat then I will really start laughing. They will make combat. Marines are still marines. Just because shooting is king doesn't mean melee is completely useless. That is just stupid. And if you are worried and actually do want to do the big unit, chuck them in a Land Raider. Or, even better, a Storm Eagle.

I find it amusing how all your tactical advice seems to involve buying lots of models. :)

[the jeske]

The trick with dedicated CC units is to keep them cheap and take multiples, not single deathstars.
10 csm or more if one sloggs with mark and icon veteran and 2 specials is not cheap . BA spam cheap hth units and how is it helping them ? Same with GK . cheap but they stayed shoty. melee even with multiple units is too random. It takes one failed charge and the unit is being light up with anti teq weapons at rapid fire range . With a possible point blank counter charge.


Necron flyer spam might be king at the moment but that is a cheese list that will soon be brought back in line.
aha and GW is going to make it in which way ? remove flyers or are we speaking about some time in the future when we have 3-4 6th ed dex. because thats good 1 year or more and doesnt help chaos marines who just had to deal with 5years of 5th ed.




I find it amusing how all your tactical advice seems to involve buying lots of models
word.


snip abadon vs
Cheap as chips, don't make one big unit, take multiple smaller ones, make them a smaller part of a larger force.
265 pts witout body bags no transport . you said cheap hth units . he looks like a 500pts unit . its 1/3 of an army and chosen are bad . they are high cost zerkers with +3sv .


snip tyfusvs
Cheap as chips, don't make one big unit, take multiple smaller ones, make them a smaller part of a larger force.
another 450-500pts dude . 1/3 army . melee . but unlike abadon his buff does nothing to most armies.


Bargain-bin price for what they do. Spread the love in terms of target saturation. Keep your opponent guessing. All common 6th Edition themes that still make melee units viable in the right circumstances. And really, if you don't think power-armoured marines will make combat then I will really start laughing. They will make combat. Marines are still marines. Just because shooting is king doesn't mean melee is completely useless.
assuming everything works and you are in melee range . how do you deal with flyer builds ?




That is just stupid. And if you are worried and actually do want to do the big unit, chuck them in a Land Raider. Or, even better, a Storm Eagle.

So one thing gets blown up losing hull points from necron and the other one is FW , so offten does not get accapted in playgroups . Ah and LR/eagle +abadon + bodybags + some sort of support makes your army a death start. Where is the cheap as chips thing ? also because of vodka production here am biased , chips cost hell lot of money .

[Connjurus]

I think the issue you gents aren't addressing is the respective point-size that you fellows play. The Jeske seems to play 1500 point games. At my FLGS and with my play-group, we normally play 2,000-2,500 point games. Why? Bigger games are fun. It's also the only reason I've been able to play Chaos Space Marines even semi-competitively against the big new boys of old 5th (Necron and Grey Knights). This current codex, just from what we've seen, is going to be all about synergy. So many different lists to suit so many different styles. If we're talking cheap hand-to-hand, 'zerkes have already been brought. 15 PPM for that many attacks? That's a 6-point drop per model, and definitely nothing to complain about. We don't know if Chosen are worth it yet, but we do know that they have a HUGE list of upgrades to buy from.

Sorcerors are ridiculous, and anyone who says differently is jumping the gun. I actually just threw together a kit-bashed Sorceror last night in a fit of inspiration after reading just how cheap they are.

Until we have the entire codex, all the options and all the upgrades and all the point-costs, people pointing and crying out, "Lame and over-priced" really don't know that they're talking about. I remember people doing the same thing when we started to get bits and pieces of Mr. Kelly's last codex, and Dark Eldar are neither weak, nor overpriced.

Now can we all just calm down, stop debating, and can someone please, for the love of Tzeentch, come on and tell us what's on the Chaos Artefacts table? Seriously.

[Caitsidhe]

I think the issue you gents aren't addressing is the respective point-size that you fellows play. The Jeske seems to play 1500 point games. At my FLGS and with my play-group, we normally play 2,000-2,500 point games.

In my area the standard pick-up and tournament game is between 1500 and 1850. The slower speed of rules resolution in this edition has made larger size games logistically difficult for the tournament scene. I have little doubt that Games Workshop would like to see larger size games played and that they have manipulated the new Codex to try and encourage horde spam for the purpose of sales. Unfortunately for them, the rules they put out don't encourage that in the tournament scene. In the United States at least, tournament games outnumber pick-up games. Form follows function.


Why? Bigger games are fun. It's also the only reason I've been able to play Chaos Space Marines even semi-competitively against the big new boys of old 5th (Necron and Grey Knights). This current codex, just from what we've seen, is going to be all about synergy. So many different lists to suit so many different styles. If we're talking cheap hand-to-hand, 'zerkes have already been brought. 15 PPM for that many attacks? That's a 6-point drop per model, and definitely nothing to complain about. We don't know if Chosen are worth it yet, but we do know that they have a HUGE list of upgrades to buy from.

Hand in hand with the power of the gun and the smaller size of tournaments, the Khorne-B is dead on arrival. Keeping them alive long enough to get them into combat is an issue. So far the only advice I've seen on the subject is to spam them in lots and lots of units so that at least one or two gets through. I'm sure from a sales standpoint that is great. From a player's standpoint it is not. It sucks for the pocketbook, and it sucks from a competitive point of view. They may be cheaper than they were but they aren't cheap enough yet for that tactic.


Until we have the entire codex, all the options and all the upgrades and all the point-costs, people pointing and crying out, "Lame and over-priced" really don't know that they're talking about. I remember people doing the same thing when we started to get bits and pieces of Mr. Kelly's last codex, and Dark Eldar are neither weak, nor overpriced.

I agree with this sentiment. The only reason I chimed in is that I am sick to death of hearing "woah... this is great... buy this... think of what you can do with this." I dislike shills. If there isn't enough information to judge things as poor, then there isn't enough information to judge things as good. My only comment is thus far, with the information we have seen, I'm not rushing out to buy anything. I hope another shoe will drop later, but so far there is nothing, absolutely nothing to indicate we are awesome or suck.


Now can we all just calm down, stop debating, and can someone please, for the love of Tzeentch, come on and tell us what's on the Chaos Artefacts table? Seriously.

We agree here too. I'd like to know what's on it. Let's hold back on the shill and the gloom and doom and just wait for the book.

[Learn2Eel]

That is a very impressive record. I consider myself a good player and my average ratio is two wins per one loss. I'm always impressed and amazed by those with perfect scores in a game with so many random elements. You must be a master at the appropriate skill set, and have a wonderful surplus of luck for those right rolls. I am not saying there is no point in taking our HQ selections. I'm saying based on what we know so far (which isn't much) they aren't that helpful. Close combat specialists have to reach combat. More importantly they have to stay engaged in combat. What most people seem to overlook is that a good opponent is going to position (in the flying v) so that even if you reach him/her there is a very good chance what you reach will die, models will end up not engaged, and combat will end. The harder you hit the more likely you will disintegrate the models reached will vaporize leaving you holding the bag. This means it is even MORE important that you not only reach your opponent but that you are able to engage with EVERYTHING (easier said than done). I'm sure a man of your win record and skill understands the implications? Putting Kharn in a unit of KB and sending them hellbent to leather across the field means they get shot a lot on the way. You can't bunch them up because then they get hit with pie plates. If you string them out they are victims of their own success as they hit the initial models, kill them, and combat ends with the bulk of the opposing unit intact. Then they get the crap shot out of them again.



I don't consider the change from AP-2 to AP-3 minor. I consider it the crux of the matter. The only reason I would drop that many points on a model (he is extremely expensive) is if he can deal with Terminators. We have better choices for killing regular AP-3 armor. If Abby makes all the Cult troops (I don't give a fig about Chosen) troops, he would be valuable. Likewise there might be other perks. What we have seen thus far, however, doesn't give me any reason to field him.



I find it amusing how all your tactical advice seems to involve buying lots of models. :)

I don't consider myself a good player, and that's not my point. My point is that I know how our old codex works, and I know those basic principles apply to pretty much every decent army list. Hence what I mean by adaptation. Doubles work betters than singles in 40K; the only unit I field that isn't duplicated is the Defiler - mostly because of cost and it's utility. You need unit redundancy, hence why deathstars are never as effective as smaller, more efficient units for their cost. I do also understand how melee works now. With overwatch, being unable to charge from rhinos, etc, it is harder. Assault vehicłes are limited for marines and expensive. But melee isn't dead - you just have to figure out how to make it work. Hence why you keep them as cheap as possible whilst maintaining effectivess and don't tailor them to wipe out units on the charge (ala Wyches). You will take more shots this way, but that is why target saturation is so important. You want multiple targets that your opponent has to decide which is more threatening, and the more he focuses on one element, the less he focuses on your other units. I haven't had any problems getting into combat because I've kept my opponent busy elsewhere. I also make sure those units can threaten a variety of targets in combat. As I am saying, adapt. It can be made to work.

He still can, and he can do it better than most. He'll average 9-10 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3s with re-rolls (either all or of 1s) and wounding on 3s with re-rolls of 1s, ignoring Armour. He can still reliably butcher entire terminator units, and having re-rolls to hit iß a big plus for him. He's Kharn against regular infantry but he can still kill six or seven with Drachnyen on average. Also, his claw is still good against monstrous creatures - the only ones he'd struggle against with the talon are Tyrannofexes and Dreadknights. He's still kickass, but now he provides good buffs for your army.

My advice isn't buy lots of models actually. Read my posts carefully. I am talking about target saturation and unit redundancy. Take doubles of units, keep them cheap, field many viable targets for your opponent. Not necessarily MSU either. My common army list is only around 20-25 models - its more a mech spam list. Nothing fancy, but there a boat load of targets demanding attention, and I do it without high numbers.

[BatMarine]

I have little doubt that Games Workshop would like to see larger size games played and that they have manipulated the new Codex to try and encourage horde spam for the purpose of sales.

I agree with most of your post, but it looks to me more like they changed the rules to *allow* hordes, not to encourage it. You do lose your ccw, and a lot of cool rules if you just run naked Bolter/Pistol Marines.

The thing I think is awesome is that it *appears* to be following suit that there is no perfect right way to build your army. That is a more fun option.

Also, undefeated depends a lot on where you are and everything. My meta is a lot less vehicle heavy, and I ran a Tyranid List that went undefeated except for a time when someone was fudging the rules (we kept playing because we were having a blast, I just took pictures to remind him forever on facebook!)

[Learn2Eel]

10 csm or more if one sloggs with mark and icon veteran and 2 specials is not cheap . BA spam cheap hth units and how is it helping them ? Same with GK . cheap but they stayed shoty. melee even with multiple units is too random. It takes one failed charge and the unit is being light up with anti teq weapons at rapid fire range . With a possible point blank counter charge.


aha and GW is going to make it in which way ? remove flyers or are we speaking about some time in the future when we have 3-4 6th ed dex. because thats good 1 year or more and doesnt help chaos marines who just had to deal with 5years of 5th ed.




word.


265 pts witout body bags no transport . you said cheap hth units . he looks like a 500pts unit . its 1/3 of an army and chosen are bad . they are high cost zerkers with +3sv .

another 450-500pts dude . 1/3 army . melee . but unlike abadon his buff does nothing to most armies.


assuming everything works and you are in melee range . how do you deal with flyer builds ?



So one thing gets blown up losing hull points from necron and the other one is FW , so offten does not get accapted in playgroups . Ah and LR/eagle +abadon + bodybags + some sort of support makes your army a death start. Where is the cheap as chips thing ? also because of vodka production here am biased , chips cost hell lot of money .

You don't to spend that many points to make a decent HtH unit. And unless it is a cheap unit and you are using it more as a distraction, mount it up. 35 points gives you a lot of protection. For Berzerkers, an eight man squad in a rhino will cost you 185. They don't need anything else, they will maul infantry whilst not necessarily wiping them. They are also cheap and thus can be duplicated so they aren't redundant. Charges are less reliable but that is why you keep them a part of the larger force and don't look at them individually as something that needs to kill stuff. Melee is still good for tying stuff up. Genestealers can't charge from outflank but pop them next to Devastators or Long Fangs whilst isolating them. Your opponent either has to react to the threat and ignore that targets they should shoot at or ignore them and get ripped apart. Think more and keep your opponent guessing.

Spam lists are just that. Spam lists. People will stop taking them once balanced lists become available that can reliably deal with flyer spam and other lists.

Wow, an isolated example. It is general advice mate. That doesn't mean you can't make Abaddon work - which you can. You pay the points for it but that is the price you pay for him.

Same thing with Typhus.

You also take units that can deal with flyers, and realize flyer spam lists don't exist everywhere and probably won't in a year or two.

Again, taking a comment out of context. General advice is cheap and multiples, but if you take Abaddon or Tuphus, the inherent cost comes down to how/if you want to transport them, and what bodyguard they have. Abaddon and Typhus are meant for bigger games where you can make them work more effectively, but you can still use them at smaller games - expect their units to not be as effective though. However, you can also consider that some characters make such 'deathstar' builds viable, Draigo being the obvious example. The trick with Paladins isn't one big unit but two mid-sized units. A similar principle can be adopted in bigger games. Typhus allows you to turn zombies into exceedingly cheap Plaguebearers - I.e hard as nails objective sitters. Abaddon gives a big buff to everyone around him when playing against marines.

[NurglesBloatedEgo]

New stuff
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7X1gUnyomFY/UF-S8gStPTI/AAAAAAAACa8/IPqREEXZgic/s1600/P1050828.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-i0GMLVqJu0s/UF-TGBYG3BI/AAAAAAAACbE/XDPvASrnq0o/s1600/P1050830.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cajqn9F-Fok/UF-TQVGt66I/AAAAAAAACbM/psJUB9wwm5U/s1600/P1050831.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7SIHbjQEtCU/UF-TtjXnyJI/AAAAAAAACbk/vmPTEPe0GAk/s1600/P1050835.JPG

[NurglesBloatedEgo]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Mq9E1mvOAZQ/UF-T0JZYVII/AAAAAAAACbs/4sQtIOmxwco/s1600/P1050836.JPG

[NurglesBloatedEgo]

Credit to "From the Fang" blog!

[Connjurus]

Are people just purposefully not looking at the Chaos Artefacts page? I mean, come on. What the heck?

[Learn2Eel]

Credit to "From the Fang" blog!

Thanks for the find!

People were wondering what the Flail rule for Helbrute power scourges was.
It reduces the WS of models in base to base by D3 each turn :eek:

[daboarder]

Thanks for the find!

People were wondering what the Flail rule for Helbrute power scourges was.
It reduces the WS of models in base to base by D3 each turn :eek:

Thats not really that great, WS is basically a naff stat in 40k anyway losing 1 to 3 points is no major deal for anything that would be hurting a dread anyway. Atleast its still S8 and dangerous instead of S6 and not worth the trade.

[Connjurus]

Thats not really that great, WS is basically a naff stat in 40k anyway losing 1 to 3 points is no major deal for anything that would be hurting a dread anyway. Atleast its still S8 and dangerous instead of S6 and not worth the trade.

3 points on a power-fist Space Marine sergeant is the difference between being hit on a 4 and being hit on a 5. And even 1 point on said Sergeant is the difference between hitting on a 4 and hitting on a 3. So it's not bad at all, especially since, like you said, it's still Strength 8.

[Learn2Eel]

3 points on a power-fist Space Marine sergeant is the difference between being hit on a 4 and being hit on a 5. And even 1 point on said Sergeant is the difference between hitting on a 4 and hitting on a 3. So it's not bad at all, especially since, like you said, it's still Strength 8.

This. Also the difference between something like a Carnifex hitting you, 5s instead of 4s if you roll a 3-4. The :eek: smilie might have been inappropriate. It's good but I didn't intend to come off as saying it was great or anything. It will still instant death marines/paladins - on that note, how do you paladins like being WS3 :D The applications of that are hilarious.
If it is a free upgrade, I'd be happy to try one out - charge it into said Paladins, hopefully wither the effects, then hit them with a second unit. Bing bang boom. Again though, no model for Helbrute = no buy.