Chaos Space Marine FACT Roundup

[Vangrail]

Kharn please dont be I1, would not make sense for him

[Learn2Eel]

Anyone else notice that Thousand Sons appear to be the only ones that have Veterans of the Long War already included in their profile? We can't tell exactly from the Plague Marine and Noise Marine pictures that have been leaked, but Berzerkers apparently don't have it and Thousand Sons do. Might be that the others pay for it whilst we get it already incorporated into our cost? That would be cool.

I don't think he will be at I1 mate.

Liking Aspiring Sorcerers now. It sucks they aren't Mastery Level 2 anymore, but oh well. Still, look at the powers they can take. It's either a SD6+1 AP- Blast that causes D3 S3 AP- extra hits per model killed by the initial blast as the Primaris, or a free roll on the Chaos Gifts table (but you suffer a S4 AP- hit which you can probably LoS), or an 18" S8 AP1 beam that causes any vehicle it blows up to explode 2D6". Pretty narky.
Thousand Sons work out to be slightly cheaper in the new rules, and the fact that they don't have to purchase a power is great. Considering we also get Veterans of the Long War included in our basic cost, we've essentially gained Hatred (Space Marines) for the price of a Mastery Level on our psyker. Not sure if we have to pay for Soul Blaze or not.

Haha, we are the first codex to be able to take both codex and rulebook powers. Unfortunately, we are limited in codex powers; only half of our psychic powers can be codex powers (i.e. a Mastery Level 1 psyker must take one from his chosen god, mastery level 2 can only have one from his chosen god, mastery level 3 can have two - rounding up - etc). Kind of sucks because that means Ahriman can't take all four Tzeentch powers. But I guess that's fine, it encourages you to mix-match more.
At the moment, I'm looking at rolling once on Telepathy and seeing if I get one of the uber mastery level 2 powers - if not, just take psychic shriek. After that, either two rolls on Tzeentch and one on Biomancy or one on Tzeentch and two on Biomancy. Pyromancy also isn't a bad option.
Considering Ahriman is actually decent in combat, Biomancy isn't a bad choice for him. Warp Speed is ok for him, Hemorrhage isn't all that useful, but the other fours powers are pretty awesome. Iron Arm obviously gives him a massive boost by making him very hard to kill, Enfeeble has so many uses it isn't funny, Feel No Pain is also hilarious on Thousand Sons, and Life Leech is actually pretty rad for Ahriman.

[fuzzbuket]

that sounds.... well honestly that sounds kinda crap, 'durr hurr lets get a giant amp and make it go really loud'.

why not use some autarch or something as a amp?

[daboarder]

learn2eel:

what?

last I'd read atleast one of our psychic powers had to be from the god whose mark was taken, but no restriction on taking them all if you wanted too, where did you read that?

[Learn2Eel]

learn2eel:

what?

last I'd read atleast one of our psychic powers had to be from the god whose mark was taken, but no restriction on taking them all if you wanted too, where did you read that?

On more of the recent photos, I'll find a link for you.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7SIHbjQEtCU/UF-TtjXnyJI/AAAAAAAACbk/vmPTEPe0GAk/s1600/P1050835.JPG

You have to take at least one for your patron god, but you can only have up to half (rounding up, so two for a mastery level 3). Seems like a weird restriction to me. But that's ok, as you can feasibly take a roll on Telepathy for one of the uber powers or get Psychic Shriek which is pretty good too. Or go for Biomancy if you are kitted for combat :D I guess though the restrictions (i.e. must take one from your patron god) are a kind of way to balance the fact you get a mastery level 3 psyker for 110 points (which I now think is cheesy). You can't just know the three non-primaris powers for you god that way, you still have to roll randomly.

Looking at Ahriman's rules, trying to figure out if 120 points more than an unmarked mastery level 3 sorcerer is worth it. It's another Mastery Level, so +25. He has Inferno Bolts, which I guess is +5. He has the Mark of Tzeentch, which is probably something like +5. He's S6 AP3 in combat, so that would be something like +30 (costed like a relic blade) and still gets an extra attack for two weapons. He can use three witchfire powers a turn, which given how good most of the new witchfire powers are, I guess +30 or more - also important because it means you won't be stuck if you get more than one witchfire power. He has Veterans of the Long War, which we'll say is +5. He's Fearless, which is perhaps +10. That's 220. Oh, and he permanently has the D3 Infiltrate Warlord trait, which is very useful, so I'll say +10 on that too. 230. To me, he looks like he is actually priced appropriately for a change :)

[daboarder]

well thats frakking stupid, I kinda understood the "must have one" line but you can't take all of them from your god? Ten bucks says that so you can't be guaranteed to get your choice of powers, well they should have added more powers instead of some stupid arbitary restriction like that.

[Learn2Eel]

well thats frakking stupid, I kinda understood the "must have one" line but you can't take ll of them from your god? Ten bucks says that so you can't be guaranteed to get your choice of powers, well they should have added more powers instead of some stupid arbitary restriction like that.

Agreed, kind of silly. I guess they were trying to keep up the 'random' aspect of generating psychic powers. That or they are just trying to promote the BRB powers.
I'm actually not too fussed though. At Mastery Level 2 you still get two god powers. If we had access only to crappy BRB disciplines then I'd be really peeved but, as it stands, you can always take Psychic Shriek or roll on Biomancy and hope you don't roll a 6.

Actually, just wondering. The wording of the psychic powers doesn't actually seem to state that you can't take powers from a god that isn't your patron. Hmm, although it does you say you normally generate from the three BRB disciplines. It just says that if you take a Mark you must take one from the god's lore. It doesn't say you can't also take ones from other lores. Although, it's pretty clearly RAI that you can't.
I expect it to be FAQ'd very quickly if people actually do try it.

[daboarder]

It does:


"They must role atleast one, and may role up to half, on the table that corresnponds to their patron deity"

otherwise they are only allowed to roll on biomancy, telepathy and pyromancy:

I think mine is going to be Psyker level three with 2 biomancy powers and a nurgle power, if I bother with one.

typhus as mastery 2 and HAVING to take only nurgle powers is tasty too.

[Learn2Eel]

It does:


otherwise they are only allowed to roll on biomancy, telepathy and pyromancy:

I think mine is going to be Psyker level three with 2 biomancy powers and a nurgle power, if I bother with one.

Seems the smart way to go. Our Sorcerer Lords can still be pretty good in combat, and pair them with Biomancy and you can get some really good action going - either through personal buffs, crazy unit buffs (Feel No Pain, It Will Not Die, Relentless), crazy unit debuffs (-1S -1T), or re-gain wounds, etc, sounds very good for me. Also, Biomancy makes sense on a Nurgle lord.
When I get the codex, I'm definitely changing my army lists significantly though. No more Daemon Princes, dual Sorcerer Lords for me - embracing the Thousand Sons theme! Or just being a d*ck with two Mastery Level 3 psykers for 220 points before marks. Also, Ahriman :cool: Psychic army here I come!
I'll see what powers seem to work on the sorcerer lords/Ahriman. I'll even try out the Nurgle and Slaanesh powers for fun in Undivided lists and see how they work. Mostly though I think I'll go Tzeentch mixed with Biomancy.

By the way - 2000 points, 4 Mastery Level 3 Sorcerer Lords :D 440 points before Marks. Trololo (of course until Eldar, Space Wolves or Tyranids come to play :().
Lucky for me, in my meta those three armies aren't that common, so I guess I'll be able to have a good platform to test the psychic powers out.

[daboarder]

I don't think my nurgle is going to change much, more shoehorn it into the new edition.

However I'm getting more and mroe tempted to use the marines and Predators I have sitting in boxes to do a daemon forge list:

Thinking:
Warpsmith
Sorcerer MoT, mastery 3 and something tasty:

3-4 thousand sons units at 9 men in rhino's
2 tri las preds
potentially a dragon or two
a Landraider

perhaps not the greatest this edition but I have all the pieces baring the dragons already.

gives a nice Anti-air/anti-armour/anti-marine firepower.

[Connjurus]

Seems the smart way to go. Our Sorcerer Lords can still be pretty good in combat, and pair them with Biomancy and you can get some really good action going - either through personal buffs, crazy unit buffs (Feel No Pain, It Will Not Die, Relentless), crazy unit debuffs (-1S -1T), or re-gain wounds, etc, sounds very good for me. Also, Biomancy makes sense on a Nurgle lord.
When I get the codex, I'm definitely changing my army lists significantly though. No more Daemon Princes, dual Sorcerer Lords for me - embracing the Thousand Sons theme! Or just being a d*ck with two Mastery Level 3 psykers for 220 points before marks. Also, Ahriman :cool: Psychic army here I come!
I'll see what powers seem to work on the sorcerer lords/Ahriman. I'll even try out the Nurgle and Slaanesh powers for fun in Undivided lists and see how they work. Mostly though I think I'll go Tzeentch mixed with Biomancy.

By the way - 2000 points, 4 Mastery Level 3 Sorcerer Lords :D 440 points before Marks. Trololo (of course until Eldar, Space Wolves or Tyranids come to play :().
Lucky for me, in my meta those three armies aren't that common, so I guess I'll be able to have a good platform to test the psychic powers out.

Don't count the Daemon Princes out yet, we haven't seen the Chaos Artefacts table, from which they can take items.

[Learn2Eel]

I don't think my nurgle is going to change much, more shoehorn it into the new edition.

However I'm getting more and mroe tempted to use the marines and Predators I have sitting in boxes to do a daemon forge list:

Thinking:
Warpsmith
Sorcerer MoT, mastery 3 and something tasty:

3-4 thousand sons units at 9 men in rhino's
2 tri las preds
potentially a dragon or two
a Landraider

perhaps not the greatest this edition but I have all the pieces baring the dragons already.

gives a nice Anti-air/anti-armour/anti-marine firepower.

Nice bulky units, hard to kill. Durable. Very durable.

@Connjurus Not counting them out yet mate, I just want to try out Sorcerer Lords, who look to be amazingly cheap for their psychic power. Also, getting bored of running dual Daemon Princes in pretty much every game lol. It has been way too long since I've had to actually think about putting a HQ in a unit.

By the way guys, can anyone make out how much Terminator Armour for the Sorcerer Lord costs?

http://images.4chan.org/tg/src/1348426712843.jpg

The second digit looks like a 5, but the first digit is blurred beyond reason. Shaped like a 6, but no way in hell would Terminator armour ever cost 65 points on a character. I'm guessing 15 points like the old codex? Again about the Grey Knight Librarian comparison - if Mark of Tzeentch is indeed 5 points (it is a single digit number) and terminator armour 15 points like the old codex, we can get a Mastery Level 3 psyker with a force weapon/sword like a Grey Knight Librarian for 130 points, and have the +4 invulnerable save at all times. And we still don't pay for powers! Trololo.

[daboarder]

maybe, its either that or the whole thing goes into a scottish clan force using the space wolves codex with GH as shiltrons and a unit of bloodclaws as claymore weilding higlanders, throw in a unit of wolf guard as celts/boarder reavers and mech the whole thing up. with a redeemer, 3 preds and 2 rhinos, have 2 druids/runepriests a wolf lord and a wolf guard battle leader......not sure which yet.

have each squad modelled up with kilts and paint a different tartan for each squad

[spaceman91]

going by what that page says my troops have drop by 35pts per unit. Im now a happy bunny

[Learn2Eel]

140 points for a basic 10-man Chaos Space Marine squad that shoots just as well as a basic 10-man Tactical Marine squad that is 170 points. Ridiculous stuff. Hey, take an autocannon and a meltagun. Your 160 point unit has long-range fire support, the goodness of many bolters, and a meltagun for tank-popping at short-range. And, being marines, they are tough and good. Hardly optimized, but it is the fact that you can take units that are so cheap which is pretty rad.
Cultists though....50 for 10 (including champion), 90 for 20, 130 for 30, 150 for 35. 6 units will cost you 900 points. That is 210 models. :cool: And 600 points to spend on the big stuff.

Basic troop load outs are amazing in this codex, you can make the basic Chaos Marines fulfill virtually any role you need to for peanuts. Cultists are amongst the cheapest meat shields in the game, and still generate enough attacks on the charge to frighten anything that isn't T7. Especially if you give them the Mark of Khorne, which on a 35 man squad is only 185 (I think it is a point per model for all the Cultist marks, except Nurgle). Also lol, 1 point a model to give them a +6 invulnerable save (or is it the same as it used to be, giving a unit that didn't have an invulnerable save a ++5?). Your opponent won't think little of Cultists when 35 of them get 140 attacks on the charge. And that unit is 185 points. Just use these guys as meat shields and overwatch-deniers (have the cultists declare charge first so second unit doesn't get overwatched). In that sense, 30 man units is probably just about right at 130 points. That's still a lot of pain when they attack, especially for light infantry!

Had another look at the Sorcerer Lord army list entry. When you look at it from further back, the blurred digit on the Terminator armour points cost looks more like a 2 or a 1. Sanity restored lol. 15 is awesomely cheap, 25 is about what I'd expect.

EDIT: Had a look at the codex to compare some stuff. To really put the cheapness of the Sorcerer Lord in perspective, in the old rules, to get a Mastery Level 2 psyker cost 130 points, and that was before paying for psychic powers that were around +25 points each. And you were restricted by not being Nurgle or Slaanesh. Now....FMD that is a gigantic buff.
A lot of units appear to have had massive points cost drops, i.e. Bikes and Khorne Berzerkers. Most units have had minor points increases for either sizeable buffs or minor buffs (i.e. Possessed, Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, Obliterators, etc).
There's still a lot we don't know. If a Sorcerer Lord is THAT cheap, how cheap must a Chaos Lord be stock? What about Raptors? Forgefiends with Hades Autocannons? What are the rules for Lucius, Fabius Bile and Huron?

Has ANYONE seen the Chaos Artefacts page yet I wonder (that isn't on GW's payroll)? Seems like it is exclusive to HQ-level characters. Considering some of the other wargear we have seen, Chaos Artefacts must be pretty powerful. Remembering that Typhus' Manreaper, Ahriman's Black Staff, and Abaddon's weapons are Chaos Artefacts, they must be very powerful. It actually wouldn't surprise me if that is where all the Daemon Weapons are.

Hmm...every Loyalist codex has to pay AT LEAST 150 points for a Mastery Level 2 psyker. I wonder if really cheap sorcerer lords will just be a Chaos trait or if psykers in general are getting a price reduction?

[Caitsidhe]

I don't consider myself a good player, and that's not my point.

Then there was no reason to make a statement indicating that you haven't lost a game with your CSM. The implication is that you are that good. :) It is a very bold thing to say considering the best, most competitive players out there still lose games. Are you now clarifying that you have only played 1-3 games. That would make a record more plausible. You cannot have it both ways. If you have played lots of games and never lose, then you are making a statement about your skills. If you are going to quantify it in a way that indicates you haven't played that many (or some other explanation) one wonders about your intent and implication in bringing it up in the first place. I'll be perfectly blunt. I don't like word games or rhetorical tricks. When people try to employ them, I call the bluff and shine a bright light on it until they wish they hadn't tried it in the first place.


My point is that I know how our old codex works, and I know those basic principles apply to pretty much every decent army list. Hence what I mean by adaptation. Doubles work betters than singles in 40K; the only unit I field that isn't duplicated is the Defiler - mostly because of cost and it's utility. You need unit redundancy, hence why deathstars are never as effective as smaller, more efficient units for their cost.

This isn't necessarily true. It depends on your Codex and the parameters of the contest. There are many situations wherein a Deathstar will outperform redundancy. Likewise there are situations where in redundancy has a huge advantage. Your statement above is of the blanket variety and a very thin branch to climb out on. Like yourself, I prefer a certain degree of redundancy because I build "all comer" lists, i.e. I want to be able to deal with the largest number of different types of opponents. You never know what you will face in a tournament and this plays the odds. All that being said, there are plenty of situations where the Deathstar rocks the house. There is an excellent player in our area who loves them. I have had many philosophical discussions about them with him. I say, "how are you going to handle the advantage your opponent has in objective control?" He says, "I don't care about objectives. I'm going to table my opponent." It sounds like bravado but I assure you that he means what he says and is absolutely capable of doing so. That is his personal objective and plan. He disregards everything but what his army is best designed to do. It appears very liberating and often an advantage. If the opponent goes about trying to go for objectives at all, his/her focus is split while the Deathstar and support is not. I'll cut the tangent short. It suffices to say that list building is only as important as then proceeding to use said list properly and to the most effect.


I do also understand how melee works now. With overwatch, being unable to charge from rhinos, etc, it is harder. Assault vehicłes are limited for marines and expensive. But melee isn't dead - you just have to figure out how to make it work. Hence why you keep them as cheap as possible whilst maintaining effectivess and don't tailor them to wipe out units on the charge (ala Wyches). You will take more shots this way, but that is why target saturation is so important. You want multiple targets that your opponent has to decide which is more threatening, and the more he focuses on one element, the less he focuses on your other units. I haven't had any problems getting into combat because I've kept my opponent busy elsewhere. I also make sure those units can threaten a variety of targets in combat. As I am saying, adapt. It can be made to work.

As I said before, your tactical advice is the basic Ork battle plan. It involves buying lots of models and rushing them at the opponent in a way to try and make it difficult to stop them all. That is my summary. My personal view is that this is insane in 6th Edition unless you are an Ork (probably insane for them too). Competent opponents understand target priority and saturation fire. The only thing that is important to me is that I stop the units that matter. I can deal with the chaff. If you are simply spamming lots of the same unit (and have no chaff) then your math is thrown off by the fact that better units drop the total making saturation easier, or none of your units are that great when they arrive. The gun is now king. I say that a lot because some people don't accept it yet. You can stop nearly any charge simply by making sure to place your gun line in the right formation. Your opponent, assuming they get to you, destroys what it hits and combat ends without the two units being engaged. In other words, you can use your opponent's devastating close combat ability to constantly end up out of combat. So here is the melee problem of 6th Edition. If you are too good, you end up a victim of your own success by drawing more fire and then ending up constantly back out of the combat even after you reached the target. Melee is, thus, harder to get into in the first place and if you are awesome at it almost certainly harder to stay in it. :D


He can still reliably butcher entire terminator units, and having re-rolls to hit iß a big plus for him.

Your math is fuzzy here. Terminators only take one wound out of six inflicted unless it is AP-2. Abby is not butchering entire Terminator squads with AP-3 weaponry.


He's Kharn against regular infantry but he can still kill six or seven with Drachnyen on average. Also, his claw is still good against monstrous creatures - the only ones he'd struggle against with the talon are Tyrannofexes and Dreadknights. He's still kickass, but now he provides good buffs for your army.

We don't know what buffs he provides. The rumor is he makes Chosen scoring troops. Beyond that nothing seems certain. He is too expensive until he has a LOT more than that. As you point out, Kharn is just as good at butchering standard Marines as Abby at a lot less points. Commonsense dictates that unless Abby brings something ELSE of great value to the table, why pay all those additional points? He might have other perks, but we don't know what they are so quit trying to sell models.


My advice isn't buy lots of models actually. Read my posts carefully. I am talking about target saturation and unit redundancy. Take doubles of units, keep them cheap, field many viable targets for your opponent. Not necessarily MSU either. My common army list is only around 20-25 models - its more a mech spam list. Nothing fancy, but there a boat load of targets demanding attention, and I do it without high numbers.

I have read your posts carefully; I suspect more carefully than you have.

[Norman Brown]

We don't know what buffs he provides. The rumor is he makes Chosen scoring troops. Beyond that nothing seems certain. He is too expensive until he has a LOT more than that. As you point out, Kharn is just as good at butchering standard Marines as Abby at a lot less points. Commonsense dictates that unless Abby brings something ELSE of great value to the table, why pay all those additional points? He might have other perks, but we don't know what they are so quit trying to sell models.

He has all 4 marks so he should also make all the Cult Elites into troops.

[HERO]

There is way too much ego in this thread.
Get your **** together and talk about the new codex, and keep it that way plz.

[Caitsidhe]

He has all 4 marks so he should also make all the Cult Elites into troops.

Agreed. I feel that way too and IF that is the case I would put him on the table in several builds. I do not, however, take that for granted. They might rule he has the benefit of all the marks but has a unique mark providing those perks and not allow him the Elite to Troop benefit. We are waiting to see where they go with it.

[Learn2Eel]

Then there was no reason to make a statement indicating that you haven't lost a game with your CSM. The implication is that you are that good. :) It is a very bold thing to say considering the best, most competitive players out there still lose games. Are you now clarifying that you have only played 1-3 games. That would make a record more plausible. You cannot have it both ways. If you have played lots of games and never lose, then you are making a statement about your skills. If you are going to quantify it in a way that indicates you haven't played that many (or some other explanation) one wonders about your intent and implication in bringing it up in the first place. I'll be perfectly blunt. I don't like word games or rhetorical tricks. When people try to employ them, I call the bluff and shine a bright light on it until they wish they hadn't tried it in the first place.



This isn't necessarily true. It depends on your Codex and the parameters of the contest. There are many situations wherein a Deathstar will outperform redundancy. Likewise there are situations where in redundancy has a huge advantage. Your statement above is of the blanket variety and a very thin branch to climb out on. Like yourself, I prefer a certain degree of redundancy because I build "all comer" lists, i.e. I want to be able to deal with the largest number of different types of opponents. You never know what you will face in a tournament and this plays the odds. All that being said, there are plenty of situations where the Deathstar rocks the house. There is an excellent player in our area who loves them. I have had many philosophical discussions about them with him. I say, "how are you going to handle the advantage your opponent has in objective control?" He says, "I don't care about objectives. I'm going to table my opponent." It sounds like bravado but I assure you that he means what he says and is absolutely capable of doing so. That is his personal objective and plan. He disregards everything but what his army is best designed to do. It appears very liberating and often an advantage. If the opponent goes about trying to go for objectives at all, his/her focus is split while the Deathstar and support is not. I'll cut the tangent short. It suffices to say that list building is only as important as then proceeding to use said list properly and to the most effect.



As I said before, your tactical advice is the basic Ork battle plan. It involves buying lots of models and rushing them at the opponent in a way to try and make it difficult to stop them all. That is my summary. My personal view is that this is insane in 6th Edition unless you are an Ork (probably insane for them too). Competent opponents understand target priority and saturation fire. The only thing that is important to me is that I stop the units that matter. I can deal with the chaff. If you are simply spamming lots of the same unit (and have no chaff) then your math is thrown off by the fact that better units drop the total making saturation easier, or none of your units are that great when they arrive. The gun is now king. I say that a lot because some people don't accept it yet. You can stop nearly any charge simply by making sure to place your gun line in the right formation. Your opponent, assuming they get to you, destroys what it hits and combat ends without the two units being engaged. In other words, you can use your opponent's devastating close combat ability to constantly end up out of combat. So here is the melee problem of 6th Edition. If you are too good, you end up a victim of your own success by drawing more fire and then ending up constantly back out of the combat even after you reached the target. Melee is, thus, harder to get into in the first place and if you are awesome at it almost certainly harder to stay in it. :D



Your math is fuzzy here. Terminators only take one wound out of six inflicted unless it is AP-2. Abby is not butchering entire Terminator squads with AP-3 weaponry.



We don't know what buffs he provides. The rumor is he makes Chosen scoring troops. Beyond that nothing seems certain. He is too expensive until he has a LOT more than that. As you point out, Kharn is just as good at butchering standard Marines as Abby at a lot less points. Commonsense dictates that unless Abby brings something ELSE of great value to the table, why pay all those additional points? He might have other perks, but we don't know what they are so quit trying to sell models.



I have read your posts carefully; I suspect more carefully than you have.

The entire point, which you are still conveniently ignoring, is that I can still make the units you and others say do not work in 6th edition competitive just by understanding how they have changed. Walkers, close-combat units and etcetera have all fallen by the wayside apparently. I've seen competitive lists that ignore that. Hence why you should not judge a book by its cover. We are only in the embryonic stages of 6th edition. Initial impressions are not fully determinate. I don't write competitive lists. I don't think about what I am doing in a game, hence why a tournament player would spank me from end to end. Again though, the point is that I know from lots of experience with 6th that a lot of the early complaints are not as true as they were before. The unbeaten comment was probably a bit unnecessary but, again, it was to illustrate that you can still make something that has been changed irrevocably for the worse at a glance work. I apply the same principle to Berzerkers that I do with Wyches. Take units designed to kill the opponent in their turn, and keep them efficient. For Berzerkers, 8 is good and fluffy and not too weak to get beaten back by other infantry or too big to crush entire units on the charge (barring sweeping advances). I don't use Berzerkers like I used to in 5th edition. I run them in cheaper units, in doubles, and they actually do work, and I've seen other people replicate this success with trial and error. There are teething problems; melee is not as easily used as shooting, obviously. But you can make it work. And for the record, I've played about 20-30 games of 6th (I don't really keep track - a handful with Grey Knights, most with Chaos) and I've tested something different each time. I think once more anti-flyer units become available, flyer spam lists will be less relevant. Melee isn't king but I think people just need to learn how to use it right to adapt to the new rules. I tried out the apparently uber-powerful all-terminator army that the meta is adapting to because of power weapon changes. I didn't lose most of my Grey Knight games because of a bad army list or anything. I lost because I was outnumbered and outmatched, point for point, and cheap as chips melee units did the job far better than expensive Terminator/Paladin units ever could. The cheaper, the better. I'll be perfectly blunt. Adaptation is the name of the game.

If you notice my comments to the jeske, I did say you can still make deathstars work if you want them to. You have to play tough though, and think a lot more - +2 armour isn't worth anything against the much higher volume of shots concentrated against smaller numbers of units. That's why effective and competitive Deathstar builds are a lot tougher to use in 6th IMO; a good player will always find ways to make it work though. I did try it a few times with a Draigowing (probably what turned me off Grey Knights lmao - doing a themed Terminator list is fine until you realize you want to play games and stop buying them for more Chaos). Your friend sounds like someone who knows the name of the game. Deathstars struggle with objectives - hence, he adapts to take on secondarys or - as you say - table your opponent. Play hardball and be dirty. It is again, my main point. A lot of stuff changed with 6th. But you can still make it work (except Pyrovores). My statement was indeed general, but it is still good advice - particularly for inexperienced players. Small-model armies like Grey Knights can do some ridiculous damage but can't take it in return if they get hit hard due to the low model count, as an example. Particularly for Chaos in both 5th and 6th, you couldn't rely on deathstars. They were either outperformed by similarly costed ones, or too expensive to be worthwhile. That and you couldn't make them scoring like recent codexes can. I found multiple 5-man Daemon units to be very effective for scoring actually.

Well your summary is wrong. You don't need to outnumber your opponent to have good target saturation. I am frequently outnumbered by my opponents, their armies often double the size of mine at 1500, but they always have a tougher time than I do trying to determine which target to strike at. It also comes down to your local meta. If you know what your meta is like, you can change your army list to suit that. But the more models, the better. Having more models gives you a lot more breathing room against a wider range of weaponry, and also means you won't feel each model lost with such a pang. But it isn't in the levels you are talking about. Two eight-man Berzerker units in Rhinos. Done, that's about 360-370 points (180-185 for each unit). They'll do their job and do it well, and it still gives you ~1100 points to work with. Two Mastery Level 3 Sorcerers? That's 220. Two Hades Forgefiends? That's 240. Two Chaos Marine squads with rhinos and meltas? That's nearly 400. Heldrakes? Two is 340. Just some different examples of what we can see. Those elements look either nice or bad by themselves, but work them into a cohesive plan, and then their effectiveness becomes more pronounced. The Forgefiends provide fire support and take out any vehicles or walkers that can put the hurt on your Berzerkers. The Heldrakes swoop over other flyers and toast Space Marines. The Chaos Marines move up in support and provide a frenzy of fire. The Sorcerers give you some incredible psychic potential. Again, just an example (just random elements, not trying to mimic a 1500 point list). If that was legal though at 1500 or whatever, that would be 44 models. That is a very decent army size and it wouldn't surprise me if that is close to one of the templates. The Forgefiends can hurt infantry and really pound vehicles. The Heldrakes can roast Space Marines and vector strike flyers. The Sorcerers provide crazy potential. The Chaos Space Marines are mobile, scoring and can deal with infantry or tanks. The Berzerkers are cheap melee units that pack a punch whilst not being an obvious threat. Outnumbering isn't necessarily the key to the game. But if you force your opponent to split-fire or focus on less valuable targets that still pose a big threat, you've done well.

Melee isn't completely gone. That is something YOU are not accepting. Melee still works. I've seen it work, I've read about competitive players making it work. Deathstars still work apparently. Genestealers still work despite the debuff. Teething problems are understandable. But again, this is only the beginning of 6th. Necrons are beating up with flyer-spam lists, whilst old 5th ed lists like chimera spam, Purifier-spam and that are still viable. Yes, mostly shooty armies. People will make it work. If you don't want to accept that, fine. Go chat to your Deathstar buddy and see how he makes it work by admitting he works to table people. I'll also chat to people with themed lists and see how they've actually made success out of nothing in combat. Random charge lengths, Overwatch, etc all sounds great. It is. But it isn't a sign that melee is completely superfluous now, and anyone that thinks that is frankly blind. I'll even be honest - I prefer shooty armies. That isn't even because I like shooting or think it is better, I do it because it makes sense as a Tzeentch player. And people who prefer combat also make it work. Wraiths, for example, are still amazing CC units. Fast-moving, cheap combat units are way above things like deathstars now.
Also, keep in mind we have an upgrade on our tanks that prevents Overwatch, not to mention Khorne units can re-roll their charge distance.

In fact, scratch that. Look at Dark Eldar players. The codex that was so balanced in 5th and has been hit harder than any in the game by 6th. Venon-spam/raider-wych combos now made completely redudant by hull points, codex upgrades made useless by BRB special rules, worse effects of exploding vehicles, special weapons that they needed against big guys now are no longer AP2, only have four AP2 weapons (huskblade, klaives, demiklaives, Drazhar). Special characters suffer from codex changes. Only real buff for Dark Eldar is that they are kick-*** when Night Fighting is on. As tough as it has been for them, they've stuck true and a lot of them have made working lists that are entirely different to their 5th edition lists. Just like with melee - it seems worse, but you can still make it work.

Umm, not sure if I understand. He does have an AP2 weapon. It is S5. On average, he has 10 attacks on the charge (4 base, +2 rage, +4 daemon weapon). He needs 3s to hit with re-rolls (Hatred). Something like eight or nine hits. Then, he needs 3s to wound with re-rolls of 1s (Preferred Enemy). So that is about five or six successful wounds. Against standard Terminators, that is most of them dead - about 3-4 to be precise. So tell me, how does he not butcher Terminators exactly?

Why would you pay 105 extra points for Abaddon? Lets see - Terminator Armour, +4 Invulnerable Save, Eternal Warrior, AP2 Weaponry at S5 +D6 attacks, Preferred Enemy (Marines), makes Chosen troops, possibly makes all cult units troops, is I6, can smack down walkers without grenades, T5. If you can't see what buffs he brings over Kharn, then....well, you know what I mean.

Clearly you haven't.

[Learn2Eel]

There is way too much ego in this thread.
Get your **** together and talk about the new codex, and keep it that way plz.

Sure thing.
I'm really liking the look of the Hades Forgefiend, 8 S8 BS4 shots at 120 points (according to the very accurate Tastytaste) is a steal.

[Caitsidhe]

I don't write competitive lists. I don't think about what I am doing in a game, hence why a tournament player would spank me from end to end.

To save others aggravation I only quoted this part. I am a so-called competitive player and I do write competitive lists. My advice and discussion of rules is based on that precept. It is kind of a mixed signal for you to give pages and pages of advice when you readily admit that you aren't writing competitive lists. At least you were kind enough here to give people a warning label in there.

My main point has been that it IF it is too early to know if something is bad, it is ALSO too early to know if anything is good. I don't accept any information we have about special characters or anything else until I see it in black and white. I don't know if Abby is going to have AP-3 or AP-2 weapons or a combination of both. I've become distrustful of the rumors because so many have proven wrong (even those directly from the source). My view of 6th Edition being gun-friendly (to say the least) is being well demonstrated across the board. I feel confident speculating that if CSM remains primarily close combat oriented that it will suffer for it. We just don't know. Your knee-jerk optimism and constant "selling" of products we haven't seen or know the full ramifications makes you sound like a Shill. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you sound like someone posting here to build up word of mouth and excitement. In my case, it is just annoying. If you have access to more information than we have seen, give it to us. No release is 100% good or a 100% bad. The gestalt is what matters and we won't know that until we have the book in hand. Thus far the information we have is sketchy. I'm willing to talk about those things but if I wanted to get hit with a constant commercial telling me how great everything is GOING to be, I could buy White Dwarf.

[Learn2Eel]

To save others aggravation I only quoted this part. I am a so-called competitive player and I do write competitive lists. My advice and discussion of rules is based on that precept. It is kind of a mixed signal for you to give pages and pages of advice when you readily admit that you aren't writing competitive lists. At least you were kind enough here to give people a warning label in there.

My main point has been that it IF it is too early to know if something is bad, it is ALSO too early to know if anything is good. I don't accept any information we have about special characters or anything else until I see it in black and white. I don't know if Abby is going to have AP-3 or AP-2 weapons or a combination of both. I've become distrustful of the rumors because so many have proven wrong (even those directly from the source). My view of 6th Edition being gun-friendly (to say the least) is being well demonstrated across the board. I feel confident speculating that if CSM remains primarily close combat oriented that it will suffer for it. We just don't know. Your knee-jerk optimism and constant "selling" of products we haven't seen or know the full ramifications makes you sound like a Shill. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you sound like someone posting here to build up word of mouth and excitement. In my case, it is just annoying. If you have access to more information than we have seen, give it to us. No release is 100% good or a 100% bad. The gestalt is what matters and we won't know that until we have the book in hand. Thus far the information we have is sketchy. I'm willing to talk about those things but if I wanted to get hit with a constant commercial telling me how great everything is GOING to be, I could buy White Dwarf.

Let me re-word my stately. I don't write competitive lists because I don't want to. I can if I want and I have in the past. Writing a competitive list wouldn't make sense for every game I play, hence themed lists that still follow basic principles of good lust writing are what I use. I know how to write tournament lists for a lot of armies based off of personal experience, not just net listing. Please understand I often come off as misunderstood and bear with me. I'm not that great at conveying points as you can see. I think I can provide good advice, and I know how to make a good one of our old one without the big three spammed units. My meta is more concened with fun usually though, but I come up against competitive players regularly, and I always make sure to try new combinations. Just because I don't use tournament lists doesn't mean I don't know how to write them.

I've been going off what I have seen with my own two eyes. And from that, I have been making judgements I have frequently labelled as speculative. If you read most of my posts, a lot of it happens to be what you are telling me not to do now; my view is skewed towards optimism, and I was telling people who were saying the codec sucked needed to see the full picture. Also, I've been very impressed with what I've seen.
All of the special characters bar Lucius, Fabius and Huron have had pictures leaked of their rules. We know the rules for daemon engines in general and specifically the Maulerfiend. We know the rules for our troops and cult marines. And so far, it all looks mostly good.
I've been arguing a lot lately with people unimpressed by the codec. I respect their opinion, but I disagree with it. Doesn't mean I am right or wrong.

What's a shill? Similar thought to shrill, I.e hastened, excited?
I'm very excited, and I like what I have seen. And again, I am speculative about elements I don't know. I don't think you can seriously single me out for being excited right? I'm no 20 year veteran or anything, but this codex has my heart pumping. My favourite army by far with new releases? I never really cared about the rules, but it is stil good that more units look viable based on what we know.
Sorry if I come off that way. However, not everyone checks other websites for new details or gets a good look at what is posted. Combine that with my excitement, and I guess you can tell why it seems that way. I'd like to think I am more sharing discoveries with other excited fans than advertising a product. Recall, I don't tell anyone to buy anything.

[Caitsidhe]

I've been going off what I have seen with my own two eyes. And from that, I have been making judgements I have frequently labelled as speculative. If you read most of my posts, a lot of it happens to be what you are telling me not to do now; my view is skewed towards optimism, and I was telling people who were saying the codec sucked needed to see the full picture. Also, I've been very impressed with what I've seen.

I consider it more of a mixed bag myself. I like some of the models (the look), and I don't like others. I don't like the Daemon Engines because I consider vehicles too easily taken out for the points. I've never been a fan of "glass cannons" in a game wherein you might not go first. I am pleased we didn't lose the Daemon Prince entirely. There was a chance that would happen and the only way we would get one on the table is Chart or with Allies. The fact that they didn't take that step pleased me. I'm glad there are some updates in Noise Marines, although ignoring cover isn't huge for them one way or the other since most of my own opponents are in 3+ Armor. Noise Marines got deadlier against non-Marines but are about the same, at least until we see the special weapon options. I'd love to see more Doom Sirens than one in a unit. There are lots of things I like, but I'm not going to sing any praises until I see it all. I can't ethically tell people to go buy anything yet. You and I can discuss, in a civilized way, our suppositions and the ramifications of "what if." The important thing to remember is that there is no such thing as free lunch.


All of the special characters bar Lucius, Fabius and Huron have had pictures leaked of their rules. We know the rules for daemon engines in general and specifically the Maulerfiend. We know the rules for our troops and cult marines. And so far, it all looks mostly good.

As I said before, I don't trust anything leaked in pictures and I want to see EVERYTHING. :D


I've been arguing a lot lately with people unimpressed by the codec. I respect their opinion, but I disagree with it. Doesn't mean I am right or wrong.

No, it doesn't make you right or wrong. It doesn't make them right or wrong. It makes us all wanna-be prophets. I don't know enough to be unimpressed with the codex. I do know enough to be unimpressed with Daemon Engines. What do I have against them? They are vehicles. For me that is enough. I withhold judgement on everything else. I have my doubts about Khorne because I don't see them getting into combat in an economical manner. I admit, however, we just don't know enough to be sure.


What's a shill? Similar thought to shrill, I.e hastened, excited?

A Shill is a professional plant to stir up interest and excitement in a product.


I'm very excited, and I like what I have seen. And again, I am speculative about elements I don't know. I don't think you can seriously single me out for being excited right? I'm no 20 year veteran or anything, but this codex has my heart pumping. My favourite army by far with new releases? I never really cared about the rules, but it is stil good that more units look viable based on what we know.

There is nothing wrong with excitement. Let's just say you are more excited and verbal about it than most. Your excitement and commentary being universally of the used-car salesman variety made me doubt your veracity. You can't blame me for the impression. I apologize if I have misjudged.


Sorry if I come off that way. However, not everyone checks other websites for new details or gets a good look at what is posted. Combine that with my excitement, and I guess you can tell why it seems that way. I'd like to think I am more sharing discoveries with other excited fans than advertising a product. Recall, I don't tell anyone to buy anything.

It just comes across that way on the whole.

[Caldera02]

Guys stop de-railing this thread.

[Caitsidhe]

Guys stop de-railing this thread.

Fair enough. Does anyone have any new facts we can round up?

[Wolfbiter]

Hello all, longtime lurker, first time poster.

I'm looking forward to the new Codex; the news from Games Day and White Dwarf has been very interesting to me and I look forward to adding Daemon Dinos to my army. Fortunately, I like both Chaos and monstrous dino-like creatures, so it's all peanut butter with chocolate to me. :)

One thing I haven't heard yet that I'm eager to find out is whether Icons of Chaos still prevent our Deep Striking units from scattering. I've always liked using this tactic for my Chaos forces, giving my troops a lot of icons so when I make my reserves roll it gives safer landings for units like Terminators.

I'm pleased to hear that Marks and Icons do different things now; though it wasn't a big handicap for me in 5th edition games (I'm a casual rather than competitive player) I prefer having the option of giving units a benefit that doesn't disappear if the icon bearer dies.

I'm also liking that the HQ slot seems to be getting much more diverse choices. Lords for combat and opening up Elite slots for cult troops; Sorcerors for psychic powers, Warpsmiths for repair and cursing vehicles, Daemon Princes for Big Monster Running Around...I might even finally do a conversion of that Chaos Lord riding a Juggernaut I've been mulling for ages.

[HERO]

Do we know how much extra Havocs are? Or how much their weapon upgrades cost? Or their Marks?

I'm thinking Havocs are going to be our go-to dudes for Heavy support.

[the jeske]

Do we know how much extra Havocs are? Or how much their weapon upgrades cost? Or their Marks?

I'm thinking Havocs are going to be our go-to dudes for Heavy support.

you dont want marks on them , just the fearless icon over 1750 or veteran under 1750 . just 7-8 dudes with 4 rocket launchers and skyfire in all slots.

[Sure]

you dont want marks on them , just the fearless icon over 1750 or veteran under 1750 . just 7-8 dudes with 4 rocket launchers and skyfire in all slots.

I'm hoping that all rocket launchers will get this option. I'd like to experiment with spreading out the AA fire. One of the problems folks run into is that their AA is concetrated in one or two (some guard players) ground units and then their own fliers. It's not very difficult to take out AA even before it's relevant and it feels like dedicated an AA unit gets the unit killed quick and you may not kill enough fliers. If not a heavy flier list and you take out the few fliers then the unit becomes a bit awkward.
Perhaps giving Chaos Marine Squads a skyfire missile launcher in addition to other stuff. I have my concerns about this, too, but as I said - a litttle wish that if realized I'd like to test out.

[HERO]

you dont want marks on them , just the fearless icon over 1750 or veteran under 1750 . just 7-8 dudes with 4 rocket launchers and skyfire in all slots.

Why not? T5 Havocs with Autocannons behind an ADL w/ Quad-Gun looks to be a very effective firing line for dirt cheap.
You have a possible 1 dead Rhino per turn and flyer protection. The 4x rockets + Skyfire I hear is +25ppm per pop. That quickly takes them out of favor for me as the rumored Lascannons are +20ppm.

[DrBored]

Why not? T5 Havocs with Autocannons behind an ADL w/ Quad-Gun looks to be a very effective firing line for dirt cheap.
You have a possible 1 dead Rhino per turn and flyer protection. The 4x rockets + Skyfire I hear is +25ppm per pop. That quickly takes them out of favor for me as the rumored Lascannons are +20ppm.

Actually you'd want a different squad on the Quad Gun, like a cheap squad of cultists that can benefit from the cover save, or a regular squad of Marines, and then have your havocs separate. That way you could potentially take out 2 fliers a turn instead of just 1 overkilled flier.

[HERO]

Actually you'd want a different squad on the Quad Gun, like a cheap squad of cultists that can benefit from the cover save, or a regular squad of Marines, and then have your havocs separate. That way you could potentially take out 2 fliers a turn instead of just 1 overkilled flier.

You can just intercept on his turn..
and I wouldn't bother shooting Autocannons in the air. I mean, that's fine and all, but those shots are definitely more meaningful on enemy Rhinos and the like.

A few reports from Warseer indicates that my Death Guard army will be just fine. 76 point MoN Oblits, 16pt T5 normal CSM, 37pt MoN Termies, and 24pt Plague Marines.

[gresha]

Question on the Helbrute and Maulerfiend. If they are labelled as having "Powerfist/s" would that mean they are unwieldy still and both strike at I1 or do walkers ignore that rule?

Sorry if it's a stupid question. I haven't checked my book in a while and I'm at work.

[daboarder]

Question on the Helbrute and Maulerfiend. If they are labelled as having "Powerfist/s" would that mean they are unwieldy still and both strike at I1 or do walkers ignore that rule?

Sorry if it's a stupid question. I haven't checked my book in a while and I'm at work.

No walkers ignore unwieldly,

The reason they have power fists is so they can get an extra attack with other "specialist" weapons, whereas a DCCW would only allow an extra attack with another DCCW.

[Learn2Eel]

I consider it more of a mixed bag myself. I like some of the models (the look), and I don't like others. I don't like the Daemon Engines because I consider vehicles too easily taken out for the points. I've never been a fan of "glass cannons" in a game wherein you might not go first. I am pleased we didn't lose the Daemon Prince entirely. There was a chance that would happen and the only way we would get one on the table is Chart or with Allies. The fact that they didn't take that step pleased me. I'm glad there are some updates in Noise Marines, although ignoring cover isn't huge for them one way or the other since most of my own opponents are in 3+ Armor. Noise Marines got deadlier against non-Marines but are about the same, at least until we see the special weapon options. I'd love to see more Doom Sirens than one in a unit. There are lots of things I like, but I'm not going to sing any praises until I see it all. I can't ethically tell people to go buy anything yet. You and I can discuss, in a civilized way, our suppositions and the ramifications of "what if." The important thing to remember is that there is no such thing as free lunch.



As I said before, I don't trust anything leaked in pictures and I want to see EVERYTHING. :D



No, it doesn't make you right or wrong. It doesn't make them right or wrong. It makes us all wanna-be prophets. I don't know enough to be unimpressed with the codex. I do know enough to be unimpressed with Daemon Engines. What do I have against them? They are vehicles. For me that is enough. I withhold judgement on everything else. I have my doubts about Khorne because I don't see them getting into combat in an economical manner. I admit, however, we just don't know enough to be sure.



A Shill is a professional plant to stir up interest and excitement in a product.



There is nothing wrong with excitement. Let's just say you are more excited and verbal about it than most. Your excitement and commentary being universally of the used-car salesman variety made me doubt your veracity. You can't blame me for the impression. I apologize if I have misjudged.



It just comes across that way on the whole.

You and I have an understanding :) I falsely labelled you as someone who was just being negative at first, so that is my mistake. Apologies if I offended you. :) I wasn't considering that you were evaluating the Fiends in terms of your meta.

[Learn2Eel]

Do we know how much extra Havocs are? Or how much their weapon upgrades cost? Or their Marks?

I'm thinking Havocs are going to be our go-to dudes for Heavy support.

I think they have been billed at 13 points per model, same as a Chaos Marine. The same source said they were 10 points a model - I think it was the guy that leaked the pictures from Games Day. However, given that missile launchers are 15 points on normal guys, I'm not really sure. He also said Flakk missiles were a 10 point upgrade, but you still kept your normal Frag and Krak.

EDIT: Hey guys, for those worried about Abaddon's combat nerf; he still wipes the floor with Draigo. Draigo is lucky to even inflict a wound, basically. It isn't as one-sided as it was before, but still, Abaddon is cheaper and kills him quicker. If he can kill Draigo that easily, I'd say he is all good. The question obviously is if he comes up against someone like Lysander. But the personal duels aren't all that great, I was just hoping to illustrate that Abby can still eat Terminators for breakfast :cool: He might not instant-death Paladins and potentially kill entire squads of Paladins in one combat round, but he still makes a mockery of them unless they have quite a few daemon hammers.

Also;
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=152621&d=1348235679

This image confirms Chosen can still take 5 special weapons (and possibly 6 if the Champion can too). Look at the "one may take" section; you can clearly see it is just ranged weapons. But look at the part immediately above it. You can clearly make out "Plasma-Gun", and that is under the "up to four may take" section. Confirmation that we can still do it! :) Paired lightning-claw Terminators also look to be about 35-38 points a model? EDIT: Ninja'd, the guy on Warseer has confirmed that this is indeed the case with Chosen. Four melee/special weapons, then one can take a heavy/special weapon. Combine with Ahriman and you can still do what they used to do.

Hmm I just had another look at Daemon Princes. Given what Chaos Artefacts we have seen (the unique weapons for the special characters), it is safe to assume Daemon Weapons are in there. Has anyone thought about the implications of that when combined with Smash?
If you manage to get into combat and get to strike at I8 (i.e. don't charge through cover), this happens; you Smash, halving your base attacks and rounding up. Base 5 attacks, so that is 3. Then you add modifiers, so +1 for the charge, and then +D6 from the Daemon Weapon. Is that potentially 10 Smash attacks (S10) at WS9 I8 I hear? Obviously, cost and getting into combat are the issue - as well as the randomness of daemon weapons. But if you can do that, you are looking at annihilating basically every monstrous creature in the game before they can attack you if you get lucky with the daemon weapon. Your Hive Tyrant there? 6-8 hits, 5-7 wounds. Splat. Your Tyrranofex? Same thing, very good chance of Splat. Your Dreadknight? Probably Splat too.
Just a thought. Also, it wouldn't be surprising if there is a way to give Daemon Princes Eternal Warrior.

[Learn2Eel]

You can just intercept on his turn..
and I wouldn't bother shooting Autocannons in the air. I mean, that's fine and all, but those shots are definitely more meaningful on enemy Rhinos and the like.

A few reports from Warseer indicates that my Death Guard army will be just fine. 76 point MoN Oblits, 16pt T5 normal CSM, 37pt MoN Termies, and 24pt Plague Marines.

Had a look at what that guy was posting. I'm still waiting for him to post the Forgefiend points cost lol.
But he has said the Maulerfiend actually has to pay +10 points if you want the Lasher Tendrils. The Maulerfiend w/ Lasher Tendrils in the WD Battle Report is 135. According to the Warseer guy, the magma-cutters one is 125 points? Seems far too cheap for what it does, especially when the Forgefiend is apparently +50 points more base.
Dude says Chaos Lords are about 2/3 the cost of the past codex, pegging them at 60 base like the Sorcerer Lord. A Terminator-Chaos Lord costs the same as an un-upgraded Loyalist Captain (around 100). Lawl, looks like our Chaos/Sorcerer Lords are heaps cheaper than Loyalist versions for the same bang.

Rhinos can take the "no Overwatch in 6" upgrade, as well as the other bigger tanks. Defilers have access to vehicle upgrades too (but not the other daemon engines or helbrutes).
Spawn can take marks? T6 with 3 wounds each and cheaper than the old rules sound decent actually, especially given their new random chart (either +4 armour, 2D6 pick the highest for A, Poisoned (+4)). Might not be as useless anymore?

Hey, big WTF. Just realized Slow and Purposeful no longer makes you have to roll 2D6 pick the highest for movement. ERGH! I'm so stupid, how have I not noticed that!? You just move your normal movement - you can't Run, Overwatch, etc. I guess Mutilators don't look so bad now, and Obliterators can move a big quicker than they used to. And the Nurgle Daemon Prince also isn't hampered like I thought he would be. Also, Thousand Sons? AASdaksdasasnmfkiajngd - sorry, just peeved that I've been playing everything with SaP like they were in 5th. :(
76 Points for Nurgle Obliterators.

Gah, keep trying to post a question about the relative (i.e. not exact) points cost of a Forgefiend over on Warseer, and my posts aren't popping up. It keeps saying something about my posts "awaiting moderator approval". In any case, when I find out I will let you guys know.

[daboarder]

SERIOUSLY!

Lear2eel calm down, go back and read older posts before you type, at this point your just constantly regurgitating conversation and points we have discussed with you pages ago.

[Psychosplodge]

When did the rules thread expand? O_o

[Learn2Eel]

SERIOUSLY!

Lear2eel calm down, go back and read older posts before you type, at this point your just constantly regurgitating conversation and points we have discussed with you pages ago.

Only things I regurgitated in my three recent posts are that Abaddon still kills Terminators and again re-iterating the part about Chosen.
The rest I have not actually discussed, even if they are minor points. I.e. Maulerfiends being 125 base as opposed to 135, Rhinos being able to take the no Overwatch upgrade, Defilers having said access, Spawn having marks, etc. I'm not regurgitating stuff mate. I'm just posting new stuff that I find and discussing my thoughts on it. If you think it is clutter, you read some other forums - I'm hardly the only one.

I will tone it back though. I've literally been glued to my computer for the past three days. No-one benefits there (except my neighbourhood).

Edit: Quick one before I fall asleep. Forgefiend is indeed 175 base - exchanges autocannons for ectoplasm cannons for free. Third ectoplasm cannon is +25. Nice to have closure on the subject, now my thoughts;

40 points more than a Psyflemen, averaging the same hits with potentially a lot more, +5 invulnerable save, ignores shaken/stunned on a +2, causes Fear, It Will Not Die, Daemonfirge, etc. Sounds very fair, considering Psyflemen are under-costed as it is by at least 15 points.
175 is good, and switching the guns for free means you won't really need to worry about the third ectoplasm cannon if you go that route. A lot more survivable than Psyflemen, averaging the same and potentially more damage. Very good deal. It doesn't scream over-costed or under-costed - the price is very fair and very balanced IMO.
One thing is for sure - when I get my first kit on Saturday week, deciding which Fiend to use will be tough!

[MascisMan]

From the rumors I have read, Typhus will allow "Plague Zombies" as Troops. Im assuming these are Nurgle marked Cultists with FnP? Has anyone thought of how a Typhus/Plague Zombie/Plague Marine/Epidemius list would do?

Or how about an Abaddon/Epidemius (since Abaddon has the Mark of Nurgle) combo with Nurgle Chosen as Troop choices?

Maybe throw a couple Heldrake's in for anti-air and fill out the list

[Connjurus]

Or how about an Abaddon/Epidemius (since Abaddon has the Mark of Nurgle) combo with Nurgle Chosen as Troop choices?



Don't forget, you can Mark Oblits now as well.

That sounds like one nasty list.

[HERO]

Here is my current intended list for my Death Guard army.

Typhus
7x MoN Terminators w/ Combi-Plasmas
35x Plague Zombies
3x 7x plague marines w/ 2x Plasma Guns
1x 10x MoN Marines w/ Lascannon, Plasma Gun
2x 7x MoN Havocs w/ Auto-Cannons on the ADL + Quad-Gun
3x MoN Obliterators

If my memory serves me correctly..

Typhus is 230
7x MoN Terminators w/ Combi-Plasmas each and 2x Chain Fists (Termies 31 base, +6 for MoN each, +15 for Chain Fists, +5 for combi) is.. 324
35 Plague Zombies w/ max flamers = how much? Wasn't it like 50 points for 10? I'll just write them off as 200 for now.
3x 7x Plague Marines w/ 2x Plasma Guns is .. 223x3 = 669. I wrote it off as 15 per Plasma Gun, 25 for the Fist.
10x MoN Marines w/ Lascannon, Plasma Gun is, Fist is.. 220 (13 points base, +3 each for MoN, +20 for Lascannon, +15 for Plasma Gun, +25 for Fist)
2x 7x MoN Havocs, 75 for 5, 13 points each after, 3 points for MoN, Autocannons are 10 points each, 162x2 = 324
3x MoN Oblits is 76x3 (70 base, +6 for Mark) = 228

Total so far is..

2295 points

Looks like I gotta trim some points :P

[incenerate101]

Here is my current intended list for my Death Guard army.

Typhus
7x MoN Terminators w/ Combi-Plasmas
35x Plague Zombies
3x 7x plague marines w/ 2x Plasma Guns
1x 10x MoN Marines w/ Lascannon, Plasma Gun
2x 7x MoN Havics w/ Auto-Cannons on the ADL + Quad-Gun
3x MoN Obliterators

Your plan seems solid. The only problem I have with it is you are lacking in CC prowess. The termies are nice but you need something that will strike at a better iniative.

[BatMarine]

Your plan seems solid. The only problem I have with it is you are lacking in CC prowess. The termies are nice but you need something that will strike at a better iniative.

...Why? Nurgle doesn't tend to have that a lot, and seems to do just fine anyways.

Also, Zombies can't have flamers. And it's 50 for 10 and then 4 per model after

[NurglesBloatedEgo]

my plan is

Typhus (Makes Cultists Plague Zombies - Fearless, Feel no Pain, SnP)
Necrosius (gives Plague Zombies Furious Charge)

7x Plague Marines 2x Plasma guns Champ-combimelta, power weapon, meltabombs
7x Plague Marines 2x Plasma guns Champ-combimelta, power weapon, meltabombs
7x Plague Marines 2x Meltaguns Champ-combimelta, power weapon, meltabombs
7x Plague Marines 2x Flamers Champ-combiflamer, power weapon, meltabombs

35x Plague Zombies
30x Plague Zombies

Nurgle Blight Drone
Nurgle Blight Drone

Hellbrute TLLC

Forgefiend
Defiler
Defiler

(around 2500) dont know exact prices yet.

[Daemonette666]

The battle force also cost more. Even with inflation. You are swapping 13 models for only 3 bikers, which in current codex gaming values means removing 243 points of models and replacing them with 99 points of models.

Luckily I do not need any more basic troops, and already have enough berserkers, and bikes. Someone new to the gaming scene, or who wants to start a chaos marine army because of the new codex, will be losing out though.

[Learn2Eel]

Some points costs for Cult units;

Khorne Berzerkers (8 including Skull Champion) - 162 points. That is a 21 point drop, which is decent (Berzerkers are now 19 per model, Champion 10 but included in base squad).
Thousand Sons (9 including Aspiring Sorcerer) - 242 points. When you consider you don't have to purchase a psychic power, it is a 12 point drop. When you also consider that taking Bolt was probably the best idea so you could harm vehicles, that would be a 27 point drop. That's pretty good, especially considering the new and better Bolt is what we get for an average D3 roll.
Noise Marines (6 including Noise Champion) - 112 points. They used to be 135 points. That is a staggering price drop. Noise Marines are 17 points per model, and Sonic Blasters are cheaper than they used to be, the Doom Siren is the same, and the Blastmaster is more expensive. On Blastmasters, you need 10 models to use them, which sucks. I assume Sonic Blasters are +3 points and the Blastmaster is +40 points. If so, a 6-man unit with Sonic Blasters would now be 130 points, compared to 165 points. :eek: Noise Marines look to be the stand-out cult unit at the moment I must say....

And as far as the Blastmaster goes, I think it will still be a pretty fair trade off if you do a 10 man squad as opposed to the old 6 man squad.
Let's see - 95 + 85 = 180 + Blastmaster (~40) = 220. The old 6 man squad would be 135 + 35 = 170. 44 points more, but you are getting an additional 5 Noise Marines, and the Blastmaster also now ignores cover. Also, the difference between a 10 man squad with Sonic Blasters and Blastmaster in the old rules compared to the new one;

(Old Rules) - (20 x 10) + 15 = 215, 215 + (5 x 10) = 265, 265 + 35 = 300
(New Rules) - 95 + (17 x 5) = 180, 180 + (3 x 10) = 210, 210 + 40 = 250

Really puts it into perspective, no?
And the new rules 10-man unit has Ignores Cover on ALL of their weapons, as well as being Salvo 2/3 instead of just Assault 2 on the Sonic Blasters. That is insane.

EDIT: Woops, got the points cost of basic Noise Marines from Old Edition wrong. Updating now.

[Kawauso]

The battle force also cost more. Even with inflation. You are swapping 13 models for only 3 bikers, which in current codex gaming values means removing 243 points of models and replacing them with 99 points of models.

Luckily I do not need any more basic troops, and already have enough berserkers, and bikes. Someone new to the gaming scene, or who wants to start a chaos marine army because of the new codex, will be losing out though.

I was reeeally underwhelmed by the battleforce.
Like...ugh. It's just so dull and seems a really crappy selection of units. The DE and Necron battleforces were nice enough...dunno what happened with this one.

[daboarder]

Some points costs for Cult units;


Thousand Sons (9 including Aspiring Sorcerer) - 242 points. When you consider you don't have to purchase a psychic power, it is a 12 point drop. When you also consider that taking Bolt was probably the best idea so you could harm vehicles, that would be a 27 point drop. That's pretty good, especially considering the new and better Bolt is what we get for an average D3 roll.

There is no such thing as an average roll on a single D3

all events have an equally likely probability of occurring.

[BatMarine]

There is no such thing as an average roll on a single D3

all events have an equally likely probability of occurring.

Thank you for that.

[daboarder]

Thank you for that.

Your welcome,

thank you for taking the time to respond.

[Learn2Eel]

There is no such thing as an average roll on a single D3

all events have an equally likely probability of occurring.

I made a mistake on a minor point. Big whoop.
It's still a 1/3 chance. It's better than paying excessive points for inferior powers*.
Doh lol.

[daboarder]

I made a mistake on a minor point. Big whoop.
It's still a 1/3 chance. It's better than paying excessive points for inferior powers*.
Doh lol.

And all I did was make a helpful correction, your welcome.

[Learn2Eel]

And all I did was make a helpful correction, your welcome.

Sorry, I've had a long day. Thanks for correcting me. Peace :)

[Wolfshade]

It all depends on your deffinition of average.

Usually in dice games it is the expected value so for a D3 the Expected Value or average is 2, though the probability of getting said value is no greater than any individual result, similiarly on a D6 it is 3.5 whose probability of occuring is 0.

Average could also refer to the median value, 2 again.

So while it does exist, contextually it is not very important and as has been said before a minor point ;)

[BatMarine]

While we're on the subject of minor corrections... You're*

And actually you have a better chance than you think to get the beam because you're only rolling for 2 options with your mastery level 1 aspiring sorcerer. And if you don't get it, you still get a pretty decent anti infantry power, I'd say they took a step up, just not a huge one.

[HERO]

2017

HQ:
Typhus = 230

TROOPS:
35x Plague Zombies = 150
7x Plague Marines (PF, 2x Plasma Gun) = 223
7x Plague Marines (PF, 2x Plasma Gun) = 223
7x Plague Marines (PF, 2x Plasma Gun) = 223
10x Chaos Marines (MoN, PF, Plasma Gun, Lascannon) = 220

ELITE:
7x Chaos Terminators (MoN, 2x CF, All CbP) = 324

HEAVY:
7x Havocs (MoN, 4x AC) = 162
7x Havocs (MoN, 4x AC) = 162
Aegis Defense Line + Quad-Gun = 100

There, trimmed it down a bit.

Now we're getting somewhere with my Death Guard!

I wonder if I should drop a unit of Plague Marines for a giant unit of Chaos Marines w/ Mark of Nurgle sitting on an Objective. Which one do you guys think is better?

[Caitsidhe]

There, trimmed it down a bit.

Now we're getting somewhere with my Death Guard!

I wonder if I should drop a unit of Plague Marines for a giant unit of Chaos Marines w/ Mark of Nurgle sitting on an Objective. Which one do you guys think is better?

Depends. If Plague Marines are "Fearless" camping objective with an Aegis Defense Line is better with basic CSM marked because they can go to ground and get the full bonus of that terrain.

[HERO]

Depends. If Plague Marines are "Fearless" camping objective with an Aegis Defense Line is better with basic CSM marked because they can go to ground and get the full bonus of that terrain.

Plague Marines indeed keep their Fearless USR. They lose a point of Leadership, but they are indeed Fearless (which subsequently means they can't GTG).

[Caitsidhe]

Plague Marines indeed keep their Fearless USR. They lose a point of Leadership, but they are indeed Fearless (which subsequently means they can't GTG).

Then that is your answer right there. Take Nurgle Marked CSM and put them in the Aegis camping an objective. That will give you a decent shooter on the gun emplacement, at least one additional heavy weapon, and one tough as nails unit they will have to go dig out of there.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

You know when a thread goes too Rulehammer... TDA abandons it. :p

[BatMarine]

So, TDA I hear this new codex is supposed to give us lots of options that are going to be very interesting and allow lots of different play styles to have a lot of fun, whether or not you want to do your stats homework. What's your opinion of the most exciting way to play?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

GUNS! LOTS OF GUNS! Explosions are cool.

Also, Bayonets are mandatory, not Mayonets, that will get messy.

You should also pack clean underwear.

[BatMarine]

GUNS! LOTS OF GUNS! Explosions are cool.

Also, Bayonets are mandatory, not Mayonets, that will get messy.

You should also pack clean underwear.


I agree on all counts. Especially the Bayonets.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

It's settled then! Bayonets!

[Learn2Eel]

Someone asked about Typhus' Destroyer Hive and how that has changed with 6th. Having had a closer look at it, this is what it does (for those that haven't seen the image yet);

One use only
S4 AP2
Large Blast
Ignores Cover
Does Not Scatter

It affects both friendly and enemy models, so you have to be careful if you use it and you are surrounded by your own bodyguard. Even if you try to do Look Out Sir rolls, you can never allocate hits from the attack on Typhus.
It is a brutal power, to be sure, but situational. If it looks certain you will lose the combat, then it can be a life-saver. If you think you have it won, you might be more relaxed about using it. It is during the Assault phase, it is done either at the start of his initiative step (so initiative 1). It doesn't say anything about losing your normal attacks.

Oh, and I think I found a way to show off Abaddon's Preferred Enemy bubble in a fun list; three Chosen squads, five-men with five plasma guns (it is legal) in Rhinos, Abaddon with three Obliterators, two Forgefiends with Hades Autocannons - this clocks up to be about 1500 points based on confirmed/semi-confirmed points costs, actually a bit below points. A silly army list, but I think I can see a few people trying this kind of list out - specifically "special weapons teams" Chosen. That's 3s to hit with re-rolls of 1s, 2s to wound with re-rolls of 1s against every Loyalist Marine army. What's that Draigowing? Ooh, you have Dreadknights? Nice. Fodder. Also funny on Forgefiends. Instead of having to buy a Land Raider for Abaddon and Terminators, just advance him with Obliterators. That way, you can keep him near to your Chosen squads as they advance, your Obliterators benefit immensely and are justified in moving closer (their favoured tactic, bring more guns in range), Abaddon has a nice bodyguard and isn't completely useless, will still kill stuff in combat, etc. And the good thing is, this list has enough weaknesses to not be considered cheese by your opponent - it is small numbers, not much durability, relies on Abaddon and also can be bunched if player follows that thought strictly, Abaddon is a massive target, reliance on coming into range of nasty stuff, etc. Again, just a thoughtful look at what Abaddon now does for your army.
Just a fun list I thought of. I'm sure other people will find better ways to exploit that 12" bubble.

[Daemonette666]

It's settled then! Bayonets!

I would rather take cultist with the mark of Slaanesh and have barbed cattle prods mounted on their autoguns. Yes its the slaanesh way to do things.

[Learn2Eel]

I would rather take cultist with the mark of Slaanesh and have barbed cattle prods mounted on their autoguns. Yes its the slaanesh way to do things.

Lol.

[Mr Mystery]

Hmm. Sonic weapons ignore cover eh? That's pretty saucy given their basic stat line.

[Learn2Eel]

Hmm. Sonic weapons ignore cover eh? That's pretty saucy given their basic stat line.

Noise Marines are going to be brutal against +5 save armies (i.e. Imperial Guard, Tyranids, Orks, Dark Eldar, etc). Especially against Dark Eldar and horde lists.
And it is fair enough that the Blastmaster went up in points (by a small amount) considering it now also ignores cover.

[Wolfshade]

With Dark Vengance and the pretty looking minis that have been released thus far, I am thinking that it might be time to get me some traitors! Though the question is always which ones...

[Diagnosis Ninja]

Man, this thread is taking me to serious levels of don't-tempt-me-frodo.

[DrBored]

Noise Marines are going to be brutal against +5 save armies (i.e. Imperial Guard, Tyranids, Orks, Dark Eldar, etc). Especially against Dark Eldar and horde lists.
And it is fair enough that the Blastmaster went up in points (by a small amount) considering it now also ignores cover.

Wait, it went up in points? It was originally 40 points, and the rumors said it was being reduced to 25.

[Learn2Eel]

Wait, it went up in points? It was originally 40 points, and the rumors said it was being reduced to 25.

Ah, I'm confused lol. The guy over on Warseer says they increased in points to 40 I think, I thought they were 35 before? Ah yes, you are correct, they are 40 now.
Seems a bit harsh to increase their already exorbitant cost, even if they do ignore cover now.

[DrBored]

Ah, I'm confused lol. The guy over on Warseer says they increased in points to 40 I think, I thought they were 35 before? Ah yes, you are correct, they are 40 now.
Seems a bit harsh to increase their already exorbitant cost, even if they do ignore cover now.

I have a feeling whoever told you they were getting *MORE* expensive than 40 points had some bad information. The last rumor was that they were being reduced to 25, and that seems much more reasonable.