Caliban's End

[musical-fool]

Hello,

Having done a bit of research and not coming up with the relevant answers, does anyone know what brought about the end of Caliban itself (the planet). I know that there was a big showdown between the Lion and Luther but how come the planet disintergrated/blow apart?

Also has the direct aftermath of the destruction of Caliban and restructuring of the DA been discussed in any BL books?

********Possible Spoilers************

I know that in Fallen angels Chapter Master Astellan is the same Astellan in the ( I think) Descent of Angels/Angels of Darkness (can't remember which) and this sheds some more light on the run up to the final moments of Caliban but not the aftermath itself.

Can anyone enlighten me?

[Wildeybeast]

I think it was a combination of orbital bombardment and a warp rift type thing ripping the planet apart.

[Iyandagar]

In Ascension of Balthasar it makes mention that the Chaos Gods got the hump when Luther had a bawl after smacking the Lion about so decided to hit the planet with a big dose of warp energies...

[Absolon]

I think it was a combination of orbital bombardment and a warp rift type thing ripping the planet apart.

Not to mention having a pretty powerful Chaos gribbly bound to the planet. I'm sure his release from a fracturing planet was anything but calm

[musical-fool]

Not to mention having a pretty powerful Chaos gribbly bound to the planet. I'm sure his release from a fracturing planet was anything but calm

DO you know where the "Gribbly" (excellent name for a warp-thing) is mentioned? What about the actual return of the legion to Caliban, were they called back by Luther or just planned to return?

Also I cannot find anything thing mentioned about the reformation of the DA after Caliban's destruction. I.E. Was the Ravenwing always the second company or chapter during the Great Crusade? Ditto for the Deathwing?

[Absolon]

Ouroboros is mentioned in Fallen Angels as Luther tries to bind him.
After the battle of Terra the Lion chooses to return homeafter being gone for many years
The Ravenwing was part of the order before the 1st Legion's coming to Caliban. The Deathwing orgins have not been confirmed as part of the Order or Legion as there starting point

[Cpt Codpiece]

TBH i think the recent introduction of t'chulka has more to do with the demise of caliban than any innate warp entity. from 'the lion' it appears the warp engine t'chulka (as it seems to be sentient, even beyond simple servitor control), has some sort of crush on the lion and will do as he wished. (i dont want to spoil the book so will say no more)

ouroboros may have simply been a term for 'chaos' just as primordial annhialator and the great ocean. it is a fitting term for the warp and its residents both.

[bfmusashi]

Did they retcon the origin of the Deathwing? The old fluff had them as a post Second Founding institution.

[musical-fool]

Did they retcon the origin of the Deathwing? The old fluff had them as a post Second Founding institution.

No they haven't retcon it. The last codex still refers to the 1st company squad who cleared an entire planet (their home world) and painted their armour in their people's native battle colours.

[Cpt Codpiece]

but the story of two heads talking (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_Heads_Talking#.UHNmB1HJZes) can easily be referred to as a screening test hidden in a cautionary tale, in order to weed out corruption or taint/weakness in the warriors.
the title of the story is also telling in that it implies a two faced nature (two heads talking/two faced/multi faceted truth) which given the events of the HH and the subsequent secrecy of the DA. we can not blanket statement the tale as literal as it could easily be the fallen are represented as the genestalers.

still though two heads talking is a great read, especially the fight in the street with the magus/patriarch.

[Thornblood]

Just to clarify- The tale of two heads talking is gives two stories, one- that the deathwing painted there armour white in preperation for death when a single squad cleared an entire world of genestealers. That tale is a cover up for the real reason, which is that the deathwing are part of the inner circle and are in fact hunters of he fallen (so doublewing armies are actually fluffy). Both stories- the former and the second have both been retconned several times back and forth, with the white at one stage being the blood of the genestealers they killed. The story was originally published in one of GW's monthly comics ("Inferno" I believe) and should not be considered canon. However the point of the story is that the Dark Angels have secrets within secrets.

Its also worthy of note that in 'The Primarchs' Lion El Johnson takes Ouroboros from Typhus (at this stage declared for the Warmaster) and also from Iron Hands Loyalists, declaring himself neutral. The story also sees the Lion state that he would happily kill his brothers on both sides of the conflict and destroy his own chapter as he believes only the Emperor, or himself could rule and he would rather see Guilliman and Horus dead than ruling and was happy to waste his chapters lives to do so. Also the Daemon engine Ouroboros has mechanicum-cultists tending to it, who bear resemblance to the watchers in the dark.

Also just for background sake- Dark Angels generally have the names of fallen Angels/demons from Judeo-Christian sources, with the dark Angels representing a charicature of the corruption within the catholic church in the middle ages. Luther however, and his side of the DArk ANgels civil war generally have better names, and Luther himself is parallelled with the Luther of the reformation (generally seen as a good guy who rebelled against the corruption, and also started protestantism in protest). But then the Imperium are the 'good guys' and Luther having thrown his lot in with chaos it gets pretty convoluted. Anyway my point is not to assume that the Dark ANgels are clean cut and that there secret is the fallen. There secrets have secrets and it makes the chapter quite enigmatic and fun.

[Cpt Codpiece]

way to go with the spoiler alert :)

tale of two heads talking, is mentioned in the last codex, so now is canon.

but yeah, the DA have a very long and twisting history.
i have not looked into the religious aspect of the DA so cant comment.

but my own opinions (i am quite vocal on them TBH) on the DA is that luthers men are the green DA and the black 'fallen' are the lions men. t'chulka seeing the lion at odds with his father/brother (as luther was both), did what it thought was best for him and removed the marines loyal to the lion. leaving the calibanites on what was left of caliban (alduruch, tower of angels) to later cover up the failings of their primarch and kill anyone who knew the truth.
t'chulka was a warp engine capable of matter transferance/teleportation over great distances and with ease, it easily moved an entire fleet in the blink of an eye (the lion). this may be the reason for the deathwings use of teleportation tactics.
the current art on DA shows the mechanicum creatures (they may be adepts in the shape of watchers, or watchers, or just adepts) tending to an unknown sperical object, this may be part of t'chulka as it was described as being more in the warp than in real space, there may have been access points created other than the main t'chulka device (which was large enough to need a facility and ate people at an alarming rate)

the tech adepts on perditus, i did not read as like watchers however, the watchers i read as watchers (he talks to them in the closing scene). the adepts are openly named as 'order of the dragon' however, which is the cult of dark mechanicum on mars that revere the hidden knowlege sealed in the vaults by the emperor when he claimed to be the omnisiah. (see mechanicum)

[Psyfer]

The story was originally published in one of GW's monthly comics ("Inferno" I believe) and should not be considered canon.

The Tale of Two Heads Talking dates back to at least 1994, if not earlier. It's from an anthology called either Dark Millennium or Deathwing (I think), but in either case it's ancient and as with all ancient fluff, is of debatable accuracy.

I like the vagueness about the story though. Space Marines are mythical figures in the eyes of the average imperial citizen, especially a chapter as shrouded in mystery as the Dark Angels. Having variant versions of the tale reinforces that.

[Absolon]

The Tale of Two Heads Talking dates back to at least 1994, if not earlier. It's from an anthology called either Dark Millennium or Deathwing (I think), but in either case it's ancient and as with all ancient fluff, is of debatable accuracy.

I like the vagueness about the story though. Space Marines are mythical figures in the eyes of the average imperial citizen, especially a chapter as shrouded in mystery as the Dark Angels. Having variant versions of the tale reinforces that.

The original short story was in the Deathwing anthology. Always thought it was strange that the story spoke of DA recruiting from a basically Native American population, yet the artwork of the period (including the cover of the anthology) basically pictured Dark Angels as Nordic blondes.

[Cpt Codpiece]

the original was in space hulk v1s expansion, come on people.

it was expanded in other forms and the one we know now was seen in the 90's in 'inferno' the monthly fiction rag from GW (was it pre BL? i cant remember), yes it was in the deathwing anthology but that was only a reprint, just like the anthologies we have today.

and again, since it has been mentioned in a codex. that makes it canon.

[apahllo]

way to go with the spoiler alert :)

tale of two heads talking, is mentioned in the last codex, so now is canon.

but yeah, the DA have a very long and twisting history.
i have not looked into the religious aspect of the DA so cant comment.

but my own opinions (i am quite vocal on them TBH) on the DA is that luthers men are the green DA and the black 'fallen' are the lions men. t'chulka seeing the lion at odds with his father/brother (as luther was both), did what it thought was best for him and removed the marines loyal to the lion. leaving the calibanites on what was left of caliban (alduruch, tower of angels) to later cover up the failings of their primarch and kill anyone who knew the truth.
t'chulka was a warp engine capable of matter transferance/teleportation over great distances and with ease, it easily moved an entire fleet in the blink of an eye (the lion). this may be the reason for the deathwings use of teleportation tactics.
the current art on DA shows the mechanicum creatures (they may be adepts in the shape of watchers, or watchers, or just adepts) tending to an unknown sperical object, this may be part of t'chulka as it was described as being more in the warp than in real space, there may have been access points created other than the main t'chulka device (which was large enough to need a facility and ate people at an alarming rate
I believe in this as well, but it isn't to supported in angels of darkness or the HH books. I think the codex will paint the fallen as renegades in the alpha legion way, banished but not chaos (although some did fall to chaos). But this also the coolest part of the DA IMO, is all up in the air until they but the lid on it and say its on way or the other.

Were can I find out more about this t'chulka? I'm newish to da (about a year) and have only just started reading fluff books and such.

[Cpt Codpiece]

the book, the primarchs. the story 'the lion'

its a great read (or listen if you prefer the audio books). tells the tale of the lion 'running' from the night haunter only to stumble upon a planet he himself brought to compliance.... a planet that had a secret few knew of. and he intended to keep it that way.

[apahllo]

the book, the primarchs. the story 'the lion'

its a great read (or listen if you prefer the audio books). tells the tale of the lion 'running' from the night haunter only to stumble upon a planet he himself brought to compliance.... a planet that had a secret few knew of. and he intended to keep it that way.
I have that book, but its like 3 or 4 on my reading list.

Speaking of caliban, didn't astelean attribute part of the destruction to the planet being stripped and industrialized? Something along those lines was mentioned during his interrogation...

[Cpt Codpiece]

yeah fallen angels covers that part and astellans part in the DA at the time :)

i dont wanna spoil the books so i try not to tell too much :)

TBH i would just jump to read 'the lion' it and the emp childern one (about lucius) are the only ones worth reading.

[apahllo]

I play the fallen so this the more of the things I learn the more I want to finish painting my army. Maybe I'll grab that audio set that came out with dv, is that any good?

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yeah fallen angels covers that part and astellans part in the DA at the time :)

i dont wanna spoil the books so i try not to tell too much :)

TBH i would just jump to read 'the lion' it and the emp childern one (about lucius) are the only ones worth reading.
and the alpha legion one... unbelievable concepts in this one...

AND SPOILERS *THE EMPRAH DIES AND DARK ANGELS TURN INTO BLACK RAVENS THAT FIGHT THE OTHER RAVENS, THE GUARD EDITION RAVENS AND THE UNIVERSE GOES CABLLOOOIE, NO MORE CALIBAN...

[Cpt Codpiece]

the AL one is ok. but it is just that...... ok nothing special (though my theory that alpha was truly loyal while omega was more chaos seems evident)

also with the events in the grey angel audio book, luther may be a little suspicious when the lion returns...... leading to his/astellans actions