Why do Americans say words wrongly?

[Wildeybeast]

This has been a bugbear of mine for ages and I've never been able to figure it out.

Whilst we can perhaps excuse common words like 'aluminium' on the grounds of regional variance, there really is no excuse for pronouncing names wrong. The only Americans I heard get Novak Djokovic's name right during the whole US Open were the ones working for the BBC. And Notre Dame is another one that often bugs me. Now I appreciate that learning how to pronounce words from other languages/countries can be tricky, but over here we generally make the effort to at least try (even if it's just so we can say the name of our latest foreign footballers or to stop the French sneering down their garlicky noses at us). Americans don't seem to bother and I'm curious as to why. Do you not realise you are saying them wrong or do you simply just not care? Any trans-atlantic explanations gratefully received.

[Deadlift]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw&feature=youtube_gdata_player


This may be right up your street then :)

Either way it's " I couldn't care less" not bloody "I could care less"

[Mr Mystery]

Congratulations is spelt, and indeed pronounced with a t, not a d.

Moscow. The 'ow' is as per Crow, not Cow.

Iran, Iraq. It is a soft I just as 'it'. Not a harsh I.

Van Gogh is pronounced Van Goff, not Van Go.


Silly numpties!

[Sean_OBrien]

A lot of it probably goes back to the mixing of all the different "English as a Second Language" cultures during the last few hundred years. Many of them brought with them phonetic pronunciations of the various words...as formal ESL classes didn't exist at the time. After that it just stuck.

Even within the US, you have a lot of regional dialects (though to be fair...the same exists in England) regarding how the same words might be pronounced. Some like the Cajuns have a very heavy cultural dialect, while others in the upper Midwest pick up small bits and pieces from our Canadian neighbors (no doubt linked to similar immigrants during similar periods of time).

[DarkLink]

This has been a bugbear of mine for ages and I've never been able to figure it out.

If you lived a few thousand miles away from a nation that you have effectively no interaction with, you'd pronounce things wrong as well. Novak Djokovic is Serbian, right? I don't even know what a Serbian accent would sound like. Vaguely russian is my best guess. Way to think that one out, dude. Maybe you should start thinking about things from other culture's points of view on occasion.

The only foreign culture that America regularly interacts with, outside of hollywood and world news, is really Mexico and spanish-speaking immigrants. America is not as multi-cultural as Europe is, for the simple reason that we are literally an ocean away from everyone else. We have spanish speaking neighbors (mexico) and then an english speaking neighbor (canada). That's it. And America is a big place, about the size of Europe in its entirety (minus Russia, obviously). You guys can hop on a train or boat and be chatting with foreigners in a few hours. We have to catch an international flight.

[wittdooley]

You mean, like, besides the fact that any word that retains it's spelling across languages (Notre Dame) is going to be pronounced in a way that reflects those vowel and consonant sounds in said language? Obviously it's going to sound "more correct" in it's language of derivation.

I don't use a "t" sound at the end of "ed" words so I don't spell them as such. I SPELLED a word with an "ed" because when I say it, it ends in a D sound.

American English phoenetics are a mess because of the many regional dialects we have (just like England). Spelling is, quite frankly, an entirely arbitrary thing. Phoenetically, character and karekter are pronounced the same. We arbitrarily assign the "correct" spelling based on the country of origin. Thats why we spell phone with a PH even though a dictionary tells us its pronounced fone.

Anyways. That's that.

[teplicuss]

I am the worst speller in the world, mostly cause i grew up very poor and simply had other things on my mind besides school. Mostly not getting shot in Philly as a kid would be on the top 10 list. But from a laymans point of view, with a neighborhood full of black , jewish, poor irish and a giant neighborhood full of asians maybe 8 blocks away, i learned pretty quick what real diversity was all about. Now i have a Philly accent, and it is harsh to say the least. I say words such as" yous, dwag, woter," and many others that really tells others that im from the north east. Does this make me stupid or simply uneducated about the world?..no, matter of fact as an American i speak 3 languages( Russian, spanish, and Romanian), ive traveled more places then most Europeans, owned a buisness by the age of 22 and i still have a problem spelling and pronuouncing things.
My point is this, true diversity is more about being good to others, trying to make people smile, and when ya screw up..ya laugh at yourself and try harder next time. But if you think that Americans screw up words and mis prounounce the english language, you should see others trying to speak our language. And every other culture who comes over here, and i work with tons of them, we bust thier balls, but at the end of the day im buying the guy a beer and we laugh about it. I think Euro's need to kinda back off a little, talk about being kinda intolerant.

I lived in Euroupe for about 3 months. To be honest , besides london and a few big citys..most people were white. You guys think cause you get a few people from a country living next to you , your now an expert at all things about them. I find this funny, come to my old neighborhood..where there are 1,000 of differnt people and over a million african americans from all walks of life. I do not think England or any other country in Euroupe is more culturaly diverse then we are. We have more people from other coutries who live and visit us then anywhere else. The volume alone of natonalitys and races is awesome. We have been dealing with diversity in our country for close to 250 years..we might screw it up, but compared to your 50 years, i think we are doing better everyday.

As for the language issue, we are not you, and to be honest , like all groups of people we say things differntly. Hey next time you hear one of us say somthing thats not right in your head, ask an indian guy or an asian guy to say the same thing. Ill put a hundred dollers down all 4 of us say it differnt.

PS...the spelling errors are for you, enjoy

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Here's a tip for many of you Brits (not all, but way too many). There's no bloody "R" at the end of either "Obama" or "America."

[DarkLink]

And why are you complaining about Americans when you spawn accents as indecipherable as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LJw6PAi5Q8 (Yes, I know Brad Pitt is American, but these actual british guys aren't much better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leAHf5-Wx4E, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH_kOjsXakM).

You complain about Americans changing the spelling of words, like dropping all of those completely unnecessary u's, but can't even seem to speak your own language. Ironic.


Edit:
Besides, complaining about the language another country uses is about as silly as, well complaining that not everyone in the world speaks your language with your accent, for your convenience. I don't hear many Americans complaining about how all those russians speak russian, or the french speak french, or how funny a british accent sounds for that matter.

[eldargal]

The thing that bothers me is the way news (and many other 'ewe' sounds) is pronounced nooz, yet they don't pronounce you 'ooo' and there are some others like that as well. The rest I just brush off as regional dialects and I'm, generally it is things like 'could care less' which irritate me because that is you saying the exact opposite of what you think it means. :rolleyes:

[Deadlift]

The wife's canadian so I have had to put up with this *******isation of the english language for over 15 years :). I will say though that the North Americans make up for their spastic use of the english language by being some of the nicest people I have ever met, If I could live in America or Canada I would. Customer services on the other side of the pond actually means something too.

New yorkers are a funny bunch though, they can be nice and rude in the same sentence.

Either way its all just poking fun and I am sure you yanks just love our bad teeth :)

What really gets my goat is text speech, things like "I luv u" and "c u ltr" thats just wrong.

[Denzark]

The one that gets me is the Princess Irulan at the start of the film Dune. It is not Doon it is Dune!

However that said, I think Djokovic is harsh criticism. I am a nasty commuter to work at the mo, and listen to at least 60 minutes of BBC R4 every day. Now these are supposed to be paragons of the English Language.

Recently I heard Visa (as in passport, credit card) pronounced 'Veesa' with a hard S rather than Veeza as most people would. This from the most awesome received pronuciating presenter!

Also they are crap at foreign names - Jean Charles De Menezes one they particulalrly mangle.

Still at least when i use a frog word like 'Premier' I resist the urge to call it 'PremEEer' like most Hollywood numbskulls.

Crapauds.

[Psychosplodge]

http://s8.postimage.org/x8slo9jnp/tumblr_m9ubw3_AW9_J1rvwsh9o1_500.jpg
2824 <^Same for people that can't see



I don't use a "t" sound at the end of "ed" words so I don't spell them as such. I SPELLED a word with an "ed" because when I say it, it ends in a D sound.
that's cause we actually use spelt and spell it as such.



And why are you complaining about Americans when you spawn accents as indecipherable as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LJw6PAi5Q8 (Yes, I know Brad Pitt is American, but these actual british guys aren't much better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leAHf5-Wx4E, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH_kOjsXakM).

You complain about Americans changing the spelling of words, like dropping all of those completely unnecessary u's, but can't even seem to speak your own language. Ironic.

They're all perfectly understandable I don't see your point? :confused:
I did have a chat about accents with an american voice actress and she couldn't believe the variety here, she said your regional accents cover most of a state or large area, whereas ours can be totally different 5 miles down the road.





New yorkers are a funny bunch though, they can be nice and rude in the same sentence.

Either way its all just poking fun and I am sure you yanks just love our bad teeth :)

What really gets my goat is text speech, things like "I luv u" and "c u ltr" thats just wrong.

I don't think anyone does that better than us, watch this about 1min 30 secs in (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuq8ZU2Uf_0&feature=related)
We can't all be obsessed with appearance...
And text speak is a scourge on humanity.

http://s10.postimage.org/jdp5xebvt/tumblr_m9u5dl3gq_C1rwxufgo1_500.png
2823<^Same for people that can't see

[Wolfshade]

The whole point to language is that you are able to communicate with other people. If they can do that then fine, if not then there is a problem. It is where dialect is used so that the words no longer make sense to me.
Examples:
Irregardless of X I am doing Y
I am working 9 while 6
I could care less
You dising me
etc.

[Sean_OBrien]

What really gets my goat is text speech, things like "I luv u" and "c u ltr" thats just wrong.

That makes me want to beat someone about the head and neck with a wet noodle. I have actually received that crap in official emails as well. Nothing inspires confidence in your business like being too 1337 to be bothered with spelling out words.

I'm not a grammar or spelling **** either, but at least make an attempt at things.

[Psychosplodge]

you tried using national socialist didn't you?

[Sean_OBrien]

you tried using national socialist didn't you?

I did... :(

I always get a kick out of those sorts of things. You never quite know which word in particular will trip up the automatic censor.

[Psychosplodge]

It's all a bit bollocks really, especially in the oubliette...

[Wolfshade]

Yes you are not allowed to talk about alternative names for cockerels or assines

***** and *****

[Psychosplodge]

And don't try mentioning stroking your feline...

[Deadlift]

Wankings just fine though

[Wolfshade]

it is when you have two kings when you have a problem,

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

That was a terrible pun

[DarkLink]

It's like the webcomic Erfworld (http://www.erfworld.com/) (which is quite good, by the way). Gamer nerd gets teleported into a strategy warfare rpg world, where swearing is censored. So whenever he finds a new word he can use, like 'hosed', he gets a little excited.


The one that gets me is the Princess Irulan at the start of the film Dune. It is not Doon it is Dune!


Still at least when i use a frog word like 'Premier' I resist the urge to call it 'PremEEer' like most Hollywood numbskulls.


And here, we pronounce things a little differently. Why you gotta be a dick about it?



What really gets my goat is text speech, things like "I luv u" and "c u ltr" thats just wrong.

What's kinda funny is that older people tend to use poor grammar and abbreviations in texts more than younger, at least in my experience. Most youth use complete sentences and full words, only occasionally resorting to wtf, lol, omg, etc, and only because they're so incredibly convenient. All the teens and 20-somethings I know are quite thorough.



They're all perfectly understandable I don't see your point? :confused:
I did have a chat about accents with an american voice actress and she couldn't believe the variety here, she said your regional accents cover most of a state or large area, whereas ours can be totally different 5 miles down the road.


Seriously? This is a thread making fun of how Americans pronounce things, and you fail to see the irony when you have a different accent in every other little town across your entire country?

[Psychosplodge]

It's like the webcomic Erfworld (http://www.erfworld.com/) (which is quite good, by the way). Gamer nerd gets teleported into a strategy warfare rpg world, where swearing is censored. So whenever he finds a new word he can use, like 'hosed', he gets a little excited.

Seriously? This is a thread making fun of how Americans pronounce things, and you fail to see the irony when you have a different accent in every other little town across your entire country?


That comic sounds awesome!
Well yes because They're all speaking English in England so can't really be wrong...
Also this may amuse or offend dunno but...


http://youtu.be/LIUu_awRUXA

[DarkLink]

The comic is pretty awesome, good art (very expressive for such a cartoony look), very clever strategy (the main character is one hell of a clever power gamer when he needs to be), and tons of humor via in-game references to real life in the form of puns, character designs, etc. Lately they have been doing some prose updates as a prequel novel, which are well written but still a wall of text so not always as fun to read, but they update regularly and the text is at most every other update. I recommend it.


That video's pretty funny, because I agree with a lot of it.

It's annoying that tax isn't included in the item's price in the first place. You always have to give yourself leeway when using cash, in case you miscalculate the sales tax and don't have enough change. And after a few purchases, your wallet gets filled with half a pound of coins and crap, it gets pretty annoying after a while. It is worth noting that sales taxes are state taxes, and some states don't even have them.


As for taxes in general, it's not quite accurate to say we have at most a 10% tax rate. In fact, that's the lowest federal income tax rate, and if you make more than, say, $80,000 a year (depending on if you're single, married, etc) you're looking at 25-28%. If you make 400,000 or more, you get hit with 35% tax.

It's also important to note that this is just federal income tax. There are various other taxes that may or may not apply, such as the capital gains tax (investment income falls into this category, I think, which is why a lot of rich people "pay a lower tax rate" even though the reality is more complicated than that). Just doing your taxes is a nightmare. Tax consulting is like a 40 billion dollar a year business or something ridiculous. So, while our personal taxes are a little lower than the UK's, we have plenty of headaches associated with them and they're not that much lower. Besides, who wants to pay taxes at all?


Fat people annoy me, too. There's always a little situation leeway, but I fully agree it's utterly pathetic how common those stupid scooters are in supermarkets.


As for the abrasiveness, that's highly dependent on culture. I've never been overseas myself, but from what I've heard from some people who have done a lot of traveling, in one culture for a guy to even look at a woman is rude, while in another the women hit on you. There are all sorts of "strange" cultural norms that vary widely. I guess Americans just happen to be a little more blunt than the British. Heck, America is big enough that you will get different responses in different places. Where I live, staring would be kind of rude as well, and blatant staring isn't very common at all. People usually look away as soon as you make eye contact, unless you're talking to them or already know them or something.

[Wildeybeast]

First off, this was meant to be a light hearted enquiry to solve something that puzzles me, not a dig at America. That said:


If you lived a few thousand miles away from a nation that you have effectively no interaction with, you'd pronounce things wrong as well. Novak Djokovic is Serbian, right? I don't even know what a Serbian accent would sound like. Vaguely russian is my best guess. Way to think that one out, dude. Maybe you should start thinking about things from other culture's points of view on occasion.

The only foreign culture that America regularly interacts with, outside of hollywood and world news, is really Mexico and spanish-speaking immigrants. America is not as multi-cultural as Europe is, for the simple reason that we are literally an ocean away from everyone else. We have spanish speaking neighbors (mexico) and then an english speaking neighbor (canada). That's it. And America is a big place, about the size of Europe in its entirety (minus Russia, obviously). You guys can hop on a train or boat and be chatting with foreigners in a few hours. We have to catch an international flight.

He comes to play tennis in your country at least once a year, the same as he does with us. The difference is, we bothered to learn how to pronounce his name properly (I assume by just asking him, his English is very good). Saying "thinking about things from other culture's points of view" is entirely my point - you haven't, we have. We bothered to find out how to pronounce his name. How can you say that you interact with world news when the majority of the population cannot correctly pronounce the name of one the biggest sport stars in the world when he is in the final of one the biggest sporting events in the world, being held in your own country?



Besides, complaining about the language another country uses is about as silly as, well complaining that not everyone in the world speaks your language with your accent, for your convenience. I don't hear many Americans complaining about how all those russians speak russian, or the french speak french, or how funny a british accent sounds for that matter.

You missed my point, I wasn't complaining about the language you use (or complaining at all), I was wondering about the way you use words from other countries/languages, particularly proper nouns.


I am the worst speller in the world, mostly cause i grew up very poor and simply had other things on my mind besides school. Mostly not getting shot in Philly as a kid would be on the top 10 list. But from a laymans point of view, with a neighborhood full of black , jewish, poor irish and a giant neighborhood full of asians maybe 8 blocks away, i learned pretty quick what real diversity was all about. Now i have a Philly accent, and it is harsh to say the least. I say words such as" yous, dwag, woter," and many others that really tells others that im from the north east. Does this make me stupid or simply uneducated about the world?..no, matter of fact as an American i speak 3 languages( Russian, spanish, and Romanian), ive traveled more places then most Europeans, owned a buisness by the age of 22 and i still have a problem spelling and pronuouncing things.
My point is this, true diversity is more about being good to others, trying to make people smile, and when ya screw up..ya laugh at yourself and try harder next time. But if you think that Americans screw up words and mis prounounce the english language, you should see others trying to speak our language. And every other culture who comes over here, and i work with tons of them, we bust thier balls, but at the end of the day im buying the guy a beer and we laugh about it. I think Euro's need to kinda back off a little, talk about being kinda intolerant.

I lived in Euroupe for about 3 months. To be honest , besides london and a few big citys..most people were white. You guys think cause you get a few people from a country living next to you , your now an expert at all things about them. I find this funny, come to my old neighborhood..where there are 1,000 of differnt people and over a million african americans from all walks of life. I do not think England or any other country in Euroupe is more culturaly diverse then we are. We have more people from other coutries who live and visit us then anywhere else. The volume alone of natonalitys and races is awesome. We have been dealing with diversity in our country for close to 250 years..we might screw it up, but compared to your 50 years, i think we are doing better everyday.

As for the language issue, we are not you, and to be honest , like all groups of people we say things differntly. Hey next time you hear one of us say somthing thats not right in your head, ask an indian guy or an asian guy to say the same thing. Ill put a hundred dollers down all 4 of us say it differnt.

PS...the spelling errors are for you, enjoy

I said nothing about how you spell words, nor any nonsense about diversity which you have read into it. I was simply asking why Americans seem to make less effort to learn how to pronounce words from other languages/countries than other people from around the world.


You mean, like, besides the fact that any word that retains it's spelling across languages (Notre Dame) is going to be pronounced in a way that reflects those vowel and consonant sounds in said language? Obviously it's going to sound "more correct" in it's language of derivation.

But this is kind of my point. We have a number of phrases taken directly from French, we pronounce the same as they do. We pronounce Notre Dame as they do. And the Djokovic thing is just odd - every American I saw was pronouncing it 'DjokEovic' - where did the extra 'e' come from? And since most English speakers would be unsure about a Serbian name, why would you not just investigate how to pronounce it? The American ex-pros working for the BBC got it right, so I'm assuming the ones on American TV would know it as well. I'm unsure as to why this info hasn't filtered out into the general public like it has over here.

[Sean_OBrien]

I'm unsure as to why this info hasn't filtered out into the general public like it has over here.

Largely because...for the most part...the only tennis we care about are the girls tennis players, and even there - the issue isn't with their names, rather what they look like. That particular one is just not something most people care enough to even care about whether or not they are pronouncing the name right.

Professional bowling actually is rated higher than professional tennis in the US. By contrast, I seem to recall tennis being the number 2 or number 3 most popular professional sport in the UK.

[DarkLink]

First off, this was meant to be a light hearted enquiry to solve something that puzzles me, not a dig at America. That said:

Your statements contain the implicit claim that Americans are illiterate (can't pronounce stuff properly), lazy (" bothered to learn to pronounce his name"), and rude (by extension of implying we're too lazy to bother to learn about other cultures). You might not have intended it to be so, but you were insulting. I mean no big deal, but from my perspective you were one step short of saying "why are those Americans too stupid to pronounce [random dude I've never heard of]'s name". It's a particularly ironic statement if you truly don't understand American culture well enough to know why your average American doesn't know Djokovic's name off the top of their head. You say "why can't America be bothered to learn his name" and I can respond with "why can't you brits be bothered to understand America a little better".



He comes to play tennis in your country at least once a year, the same as he does with us. The difference is, we bothered to learn how to pronounce his name properly (I assume by just asking him, his English is very good). Saying "thinking about things from other culture's points of view" is entirely my point - you haven't, we have. We bothered to find out how to pronounce his name. How can you say that you interact with world news when the majority of the population cannot correctly pronounce the name of one the biggest sport stars in the world when he is in the final of one the biggest sporting events in the world, being held in your own country?

You are greatly overestimating the popularity of tennis here. Americans watch football (manly football, not actual football, because tackling people is more interesting than running up and down the field for hours only to score two or three goals), baseball, and basketball. Some Americans watch soccer and other secondary sports, but you only really hear any talk about soccer during the world cup or if you have a friend who's into it. Even fewer people watch tennis.

Sure, it's a big worldwide event, and there are plenty of Americans involved. But America is a very big place, and the vast majority of America pays attention to American sports and American sports stars, not international sports and stars.


So asking why we can't pronounce some random serbian dude's name correctly, when very few people would even know who he was in the first place, let alone also knew enough about such an obscure (for us) language, really doesn't make sense.



But this is kind of my point. We have a number of phrases taken directly from French, we pronounce the same as they do. We pronounce Notre Dame as they do. And the Djokovic thing is just odd - every American I saw was pronouncing it 'Djok[B]Eovic' - where did the extra 'e' come from? And since most English speakers would be unsure about a Serbian name, why would you not just investigate how to pronounce it? The American ex-pros working for the BBC got it right, so I'm assuming the ones on American TV would know it as well. I'm unsure as to why this info hasn't filtered out into the general public like it has over here.

Most Americans probably wouldn't know what you're talking about if you asked them what the name of the former No.1 world tennis champ from Serbia was. We know what tennis is, but it's not a sport a lot of people track closely. ESPN is mainly concerned with football, baseball, and basket ball, and occasionally soccer and hockey and a few others, but tennis is fairly low on the list as far as I know. Kinda like rugby, the only rugby team I know off the top of my head is that all-blacks team, whatever their proper name is.

[Psychosplodge]

Maybe this will help?
http://s11.postimage.org/q0wgaw2qb/sports_cheat_sheet.png
2831<^same for those that can't see

Obviously I've left the US terms for rounders, netball, and the girly padded version of rugby for clarity :D

[Wolfshade]

Never mind that the 20-20 world cup is on!

[Psychosplodge]

Not proper cricket though is it?
It's just not same if you can't stand around for five days and get a draw...

[Wolfshade]

I know, but still it is quite good and doesn't mean that I loose 5 days of my life listening to the greatest yorkshireman that has ever lived

[Psychosplodge]

When did Clarkson start commentating cricket? :confused:
:D

[Wolfshade]

I've just checked, he is from Donny, that explains...a lot.

I was talking about Geoffery Boycott obvs.

[Psychosplodge]

Indeed it does.

I wasn't sure if you meant Boycott, or Dickie Bird.

[Wolfshade]

I can see why with Dickie Bird

[DarkLink]

Obviously I've left the US terms for rounders, netball, and the girly padded version of rugby for clarity :D

You really can't compare football with rugby. In rugby you can get by without pads because you're not so much tackling people as tripping them, whereas if you took the pads out of football you'd have life threatening injuries practically every single down, and those pads are the only things between the players and broken bones. Even with the pads, pro linebackers suffer so many concussions and similar injuries that their life expectancy is in its 50's. I wouldn't give them crap about being girly. As someone put it: "In football you have protective gear that allows you to hit much harder than any rugby player would ever dare, primarily out of a sense of self preservation."

[Deadlift]

You really can't compare football with rugby. In rugby you can get by without pads because you're not so much tackling people as tripping them, whereas if you took the pads out of football you'd have life threatening injuries practically every single down, and those pads are the only things between the players and broken bones. Even with the pads, pro linebackers suffer so many concussions and similar injuries that their life expectancy is in its 50's. I wouldn't give them crap about being girly. As someone put it: "In football you have protective gear that allows you to hit much harder than any rugby player would ever dare, primarily out of a sense of self preservation."

Ahh you maybe right, but I would rather get hit by a pro football player than a mill wall supporter :)

[Wildeybeast]

Your statements contain the implicit claim that Americans are illiterate (can't pronounce stuff properly), lazy ("[British people] bothered to learn to pronounce his name"), and rude (by extension of implying we're too lazy to bother to learn about other cultures). You might not have intended it to be so, but you were insulting. I mean no big deal, but from my perspective you were one step short of saying "why are those Americans too stupid to pronounce [random dude I've never heard of]'s name". It's a particularly ironic statement if you truly don't understand American culture well enough to know why your average American doesn't know Djokovic's name off the top of their head. You say "why can't America be bothered to learn his name" and I can respond with "why can't you brits be bothered to understand America a little better".



You are greatly overestimating the popularity of tennis here. Americans watch football (manly football, not actual football, because tackling people is more interesting than running up and down the field for hours only to score two or three goals), baseball, and basketball. Some Americans watch soccer and other secondary sports, but you only really hear any talk about soccer during the world cup or if you have a friend who's into it. Even fewer people watch tennis.

Sure, it's a big worldwide event, and there are plenty of Americans involved. But America is a very big place, and the vast majority of America pays attention to American sports and American sports stars, not international sports and stars.


So asking why we can't pronounce some random serbian dude's name correctly, when very few people would even know who he was in the first place, let alone also knew enough about such an obscure (for us) language, really doesn't make sense.



Most Americans probably wouldn't know what you're talking about if you asked them what the name of the former No.1 world tennis champ from Serbia was. We know what tennis is, but it's not a sport a lot of people track closely. ESPN is mainly concerned with football, baseball, and basket ball, and occasionally soccer and hockey and a few others, but tennis is fairly low on the list as far as I know. Kinda like rugby, the only rugby team I know off the top of my head is that all-blacks team, whatever their proper name is.

If you felt insulted by me pointing out the obvious, then that says more than you than it does about me. I made no claims about your ability to read and write, my question was specifically about your pronunciation of words form other countries/languages, which I have said several times. You don't pronounce them correctly. And your defence that 'Americans don't follow tennis' is no excuse for not being able to correctly pronounce the names of the people taking part in a tournament in your own country. Even the bloody stadium announcer got it wrong. Frankly, that is either laziness or arrogance. You've also got hung up on the tennis issue, I gave you the example of a place name which you pronounce incorrectly. My purpose for enquiring (which I obvious haven't made clear) was to see if there was a reason for it beyond America being an arrogant, insular nation which takes absolutely no interest in anything beyond it's own borders unless it involves Israel, oil or pointless revenge attacks. You are not doing anything to dispel that notion.

[DarkLink]

Dude, chill out. You've gotten progressively more, I dunno, offensive as we go. It's ironic for you to criticize us for being culturally insensitive when most of your complaints are based on a poor understanding of our culture. It's easy to talk ****. That doesn't make it friendly. Try having a friendly conversation instead of a passive aggressive accusation of various character flaws, and you might find people to be a bit nicer.

[Psychosplodge]

Why do Americans say words wrongly?


Because they're foreigners, They took our language <-sorry too much southpark repeats

[Wolfshade]

You really can't compare football with rugby. In rugby you can get by without pads because you're not so much tackling people as tripping them, whereas if you took the pads out of football you'd have life threatening injuries practically every single down, and those pads are the only things between the players and broken bones. Even with the pads, pro linebackers suffer so many concussions and similar injuries that their life expectancy is in its 50's. I wouldn't give them crap about being girly. As someone put it: "In football you have protective gear that allows you to hit much harder than any rugby player would ever dare, primarily out of a sense of self preservation."

Football is a non-contact sport. sigh.
Also more seriously, you can't compare the two as they have much different skill sets, rugby players need to be able to do offense and defense and play for an enitre 80min game, whereas for what I understand there is an offensive team and a defensive team.
I will always remember when Gavin Hastings retired from Union he went to become a goal kicker...

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/55220000/gif/_55220300_rugby_a_football_624.gif

As a rugby union player, I would say that in rugby you tackle and in american football you just smash into the other person. Tackling is a skill, if you take someone's legs they will go down no matter how big they are. Last season our scrum half a tiny 5'6" bloke, tackled an opponents number 8 a huge beast of a man 6'6" got him down, stripped the ball and was away. Some of our other forwards tired the brute approach with him and got no where.

Rugby does have concussions and injuries, but these are mitigated through rules like not being able to tackle above the shoulders, not being able to tackle in the air. There are now even rules that if you lift someone in the tackle you have to ensure their grounded in a safe manner, no more picking people up and dumping them on their heads.

[Psychosplodge]

Tripping? Now I don't watch a lot of rugby but What i have seen involves diving at each other and having your head stapled back together.
What I've seen of padded rugby (I can't call it football you run carrying the ball ffs) involves stopping every three minutes as somebodys touched you.

[Wolfshade]

Tripping? Now I don't watch a lot of rugby but What i have seen involves diving at each other and having your head stapled back together.
What I've seen of padded rugby (I can't call it football you run carrying the ball ffs) involves stopping every three minutes as somebodys touched you.

Are you sure you are not thinking about league...

[Psychosplodge]

I don't know rugby's rugby, it's all a bunch of oversized blokes that like to get play rough together, still more manly than with padding though.

[Wolfshade]

I don't know rugby's rugby, it's all a bunch of oversized blokes that like to get play rough together, still more manly than with padding though.
:o Also, there is nothing wrong with showering with 15+ blokes.

League and Union are very different.

[Wildeybeast]

Dude, chill out. You've gotten progressively more, I dunno, offensive as we go. It's ironic for you to criticize us for being culturally insensitive when most of your complaints are based on a poor understanding of our culture. It's easy to talk ****. That doesn't make it friendly. Try having a friendly conversation instead of a passive aggressive accusation of various character flaws, and you might find people to be a bit nicer.

Sorry, I apologise. Bad day yesterday, not that that is an excuse. However, I take umbrage at the suggestion my post was a snide dig at Americans when it was not intended as such. If I wanted to do so, I'd just come out and do it. All I was trying to do was to understand some cultural differences, namely why Americans seem to have a habit of getting the pronunciations of proper nouns from other countries/languages wrong when they are generally used correctly over here and we both speak English (more or less). However, my attempts to do so have clearly touched a nerve and caused unintended offence, so I think it best I just leave this alone.

[eldargal]

Maybe for you, I'd get in all sorts of trouble.

:o Also, there is nothing wrong with showering with 15+ blokes.

[Denzark]

And here, we pronounce things a little differently. Why you gotta be a dick about it?

Darklink you are taking offence quickly. That time of the month old girl?

You are talking about culture and how we should understand US culture better. OK, howabout American people that mis-pronounce the French word 'Premier' show a bit of empathy and pronounce it like the French? Whilst I suppose you could argue that 'Doon' for 'Dune' is Amerenglish and therefore should be tolerated, Djokovic and Premier are examples of just doing your own thing - either becuase you think you know better (arrogance) or because you are too lazy to listen and learn.

Let me correct a couple of your misconceptions. Firstly, I'm sure if we applied ourselves, a complete understanding of US culture is well within the grasp of the average Brit - if only because the average Brit has eaten yoghurt with more culture in it.

Secondly, Rugby Union tackles are not 'tripping'. A back may have to occasionally hold the legs of a forward together to bring him down, true. But if you have seen Jonny Wilkinson rupture his own spleen, he has gone in that hard, you would realise it is not just 'tripping'. Or try googling Manu Tuilagi tackles.

You clearly have a sense of humour failure with a bit of banter. Starting to categorise people as dicks for a bit of banter is ironically dickish.

Jog on my son.

[Wildeybeast]

Darklink you are taking offence quickly. That time of the month old girl?

You are talking about culture and how we should understand US culture better. OK, howabout American people that mis-pronounce the French word 'Premier' show a bit of empathy and pronounce it like the French? Whilst I suppose you could argue that 'Doon' for 'Dune' is Amerenglish and therefore should be tolerated, Djokovic and Premier are examples of just doing your own thing - either becuase you think you know better (arrogance) or because you are too lazy to listen and learn.

Let me correct a couple of your misconceptions. Firstly, I'm sure if we applied ourselves, a complete understanding of US culture is well within the grasp of the average Brit - if only because the average Brit has eaten yoghurt with more culture in it.

Secondly, Rugby Union tackles are not 'tripping'. A back may have to occasionally hold the legs of a forward together to bring him down, true. But if you have seen Jonny Wilkinson rupture his own spleen, he has gone in that hard, you would realise it is not just 'tripping'. Or try googling Manu Tuilagi tackles.

You clearly have a sense of humour failure with a bit of banter. Starting to categorise people as dicks for a bit of banter is ironically dickish.

Jog on my son.


And I was trying to take the heat out of this one! :p Still, I can't say I disagree with you.

[Psychosplodge]

:o Also, there is nothing wrong with showering with 15+ blokes.

League and Union are very different.


Maybe for you, I'd get in all sorts of trouble.

I wouldn't type that into google :eek:

[Wildeybeast]

It just comes up with loads of EG's BoLS posts. Though curiously not this one.

[Psychosplodge]

I meant 15 guys one girl shower....there's such a thing as too literal...

[scadugenga]

Um, yay, another Brits trolling Americans thread? About pronunciation no less?

Toss off. You Brits aren't any better than us. Unless you go back to this: Ne sceole ge swa softe sinc gegangan; us sceal ord and ecg ær geseman, grim guðplega, ær we gofol syllon.

Languages evolve, as do ways of speaking and pronouncing. There are umpteen different accents in your country, and as many, if not arseloads more in ours. (At least you do not have New Jersey...or North Dakota/Minnesota. /shudder)

And to quote one my my ethnography profs way back in the day: Original Brits sounded more like Americans from the South than how they sound now.

[Wildeybeast]

Um, yay, another Brits trolling Americans thread? About pronunciation no less?

Toss off. You Brits aren't any better than us. Unless you go back to this: Ne sceole ge swa softe sinc gegangan; us sceal ord and ecg ær geseman, grim guðplega, ær we gofol syllon.

Languages evolve, as do ways of speaking and pronouncing. There are umpteen different accents in your country, and as many, if not arseloads more in ours. (At least you do not have New Jersey...or North Dakota/Minnesota. /shudder)

And to quote one my my ethnography profs way back in the day: Original Brits sounded more like Americans from the South than how they sound now.

Again, someone else who completely missed the point (though kudos for the use of 'toss off'). I'll explain it as simply as I can. I wasn't complaining about how you use English, I accept languages evolve and we have regional variations within our own country. I was discussing the way you pronounce proper nouns from other countries/languages. These are proper nouns, names of people and places. They have a fixed pronunciation based on the language/country they are from and that doesn't change dependent on the evolution of language. For example, you still pronounce Birmingham, York and Jersey correctly. That said you have a habit of getting such pronunciations wrong. I would like to know why. Not sure why that is trolling, it's perfectly reasonable question and I don't understand why it has touched such a nerve over there.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Ladies.

Gentlemen.

For your consideration:

GOOD STYLE, by Tom Leonard

helluva hard tay read theez init
stull
if yi canny unnirston thim jiss clear aff then
gawn
get ootma road

ahmaz goodiz thi lota yiz so ah um
ah no whit ahm dayn
tellnyi
jiss try enny a yir fly patir wi me
stick thi bootnyi good style
so ah wull

Anyone complaining that there's a "right way" to pronounce certain words hasn't really understood what language is or how it works. The only words that there is a "right way" to pronounce are the collection of phonemes that go up to make your own name. Those are the only words we have any right to claim as "ours".

All other words are simply a medium of communication. If you understand the words, then they have done their job. If not, perhaps ask the speaker to rephrase the sentence, yes?

I pretty much love accents myself. Don't care where they're from, they've all got a music of their own. I mean, I don't even know what accent I have any more. The people I work with say I sound like a " soft Southern shandy-drinking [EXPLETIVE REDACTED]". My family say I sound like "a Northern monkey". My American friends say I sound "English". Go figure, eh?

[Bean]

Malton wins.

"Anyone complaining that there's a "right way" to pronounce certain words hasn't really understood what language is or how it works."

[Denzark]

Malty doesn't win. He is (correct me if wrong old horse) a teacher of English. There are definitely right ways to pronounce words. Therefore he knows better. I single handedly blame you for the dumbing down of English GCSEs and the introduction of the EBACS. I have asked Gove to send the hit squad to your location. Please do not resist.

[scadugenga]

Again, someone else who completely missed the point (though kudos for the use of 'toss off'). I'll explain it as simply as I can. I wasn't complaining about how you use English, I accept languages evolve and we have regional variations within our own country. I was discussing the way you pronounce proper nouns from other countries/languages. These are proper nouns, names of people and places. They have a fixed pronunciation based on the language/country they are from and that doesn't change dependent on the evolution of language. For example, you still pronounce Birmingham, York and Jersey correctly. That said you have a habit of getting such pronunciations wrong. I would like to know why. Not sure why that is trolling, it's perfectly reasonable question and I don't understand why it has touched such a nerve over there.

When you title your thread in an offensive manner engendered to bring argument, then you're trolling. Sorry, you can't duck that bullet. "Why do Americans say words wrongly" is meant to be an attack. If you had a general interest, you might wish to say something like "why do Americans pronounce words differently?" But you didn't. Nor, in fact, are we the only culture guilty of what you're accusing us of.

Does every Brit pronounce an eastern European name with an eastern European accent? How about a Karen name, or a Vietnamese name? A Hmong name, or a Saudi name? What about a Lakota name? If not, then you're just as guilty. In fact, the entire French speaking world would be guilty of not being able to pronounce an "s" correctly, and let's not even start on the Asiatic languages, which are based largely on tonal systems instead of the languages predominant in the western world. Christ, there are UK accents that aren't even intelligible to native English speakers!

People take a foreign word to their language and generally do one of two things: 1) try to pronounce it as intended, but with their native dialect, language and accent affecting the outcome, or 2) they "homogenize" the word and integrate it into their native language and apply said rules to it. English is simply full of examples of #2 above.

Sorry Denz, but in the larger world view, Malton is entirely correct. Languages evolve, spinning off dialects and regional accents which all impact pronunciation. Hell, even English spelling wasn't unified under a specific system until the mid 18th Century.

[Bean]

Malty doesn't win. He is (correct me if wrong old horse) a teacher of English. There are definitely right ways to pronounce words. Therefore he knows better. I single handedly blame you for the dumbing down of English GCSEs and the introduction of the EBACS. I have asked Gove to send the hit squad to your location. Please do not resist.

Of course there are wrong ways to pronounce words. That doesn't actually address the claim he made--what he said is that there isn't "a right way" to pronounce words. There are a variety of right ways to pronounce most English words, many of which are tied to regional dialects (and some of which are not).

[MaltonNecromancer]

Malty doesn't win. He is (correct me if wrong old horse) a teacher of English. There are definitely right ways to pronounce words. Therefore he knows better. I single handedly blame you for the dumbing down of English GCSEs and the introduction of the EBACS. I have asked Gove to send the hit squad to your location. Please do not resist.

What? Sorry, couldn't hear you over Michael Gove's anguished screaming.

Right, I've closed his coffin, can't hear a peep now. Where were we?

*reads comment*

Okay, fine. No-one changes their mind on forum threads anyway - they just browse to have their own beliefs reflected back at them, so if it'll make you happy, fine, you're right. You are King Of The Thread. Never mind the serious research done by linguists who've spent their lives studying the way people talk and how that relates to geographic, social, and economic boundaries, you're absolutely right. I mean, why let serious scientific study get in the way of mansplained gut feeling?

Now be quiet. Gove's saying something about how I can kill his kids if I just let him live or something. As if my rage could ever be bought.

Now where did I put the gerbils and duct tape?







Oh, and thanks for the hit squad. They were delicious.

[Denzark]

LOL. OK Just in case I am unclear. I am bantering this thread. It might not be mature, it might have links to teenagers using 'Your Mum' insults. I genuinely do not want to upset anybody. Today I dropped £50 on my collectors' edition Chaos Codex and I couldn't give a rotten rat f*ck about how foreigners pronounce words really.

If I have offended anybody then I abjectly and humbly beseech your pardon. Unless you are needlessly sensitive then you can kiss my pucker.

Malty you are a funny guy. Would be happy to raise a glass and throw dice with you at the 'play date' next year - if you can countenance doing such things with someone to the right of Genghis Khan...

[scadugenga]

No worries, Denz.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Would be happy to raise a glass and throw dice with you at the 'play date' next year - if you can countenance doing such things with someone to the right of Genghis Khan...

As long as we don't talk politics or religion, I'm sure we'll be fine. :)

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Never mind the serious research done by linguists who've spent their lives studying the way people talk and how that relates to geographic, social, and economic boundaries...


Exactly. And good luck finding a linguist (a real one, who works at a university) who will tell you some cultures pronounce certain words "wrongly."

I admit it does kind of piss me off when Latino/Latina reporters in the US like Maria Hinojosa insist on pronouncing their names like they are back in Mexico, Puerto Rico, or NEEEEEKERAAGUA. But that's my own stupid little bias, not something rational or logical that I could justify to a linguist (a real one, who works at a university).

[Wildeybeast]

Anyone complaining that there's a "right way" to pronounce certain words hasn't really understood what language is or how it works. The only words that there is a "right way" to pronounce are the collection of phonemes that go up to make your own name. Those are the only words we have any right to claim as "ours".



So my point about getting the pronunciation of proper nouns wrong is entirely correct. Thanks Malton.


When you title your thread in an offensive manner engendered to bring argument, then you're trolling. Sorry, you can't duck that bullet. "Why do Americans say words wrongly" is meant to be an attack. If you had a general interest, you might wish to say something like "why do Americans pronounce words differently?" But you didn't. Nor, in fact, are we the only culture guilty of what you're accusing us of.


OK, I accept the title is bit accusatory, but it was meant to be light-hearted, hence my use of a made up word. And I'm not talking about producing or spelling of general words differently, which is a perfectly normal part of the evolution of language, I'm talking about the pronunciation of proper nouns which have a fixed pronunciation, dependent on how the person who 'owns' then pronounces it (see Malton's point). If you use a different pronunciation, it is fair to say you are using them incorrectly.


Does every Brit pronounce an eastern European name with an eastern European accent? How about a Karen name, or a Vietnamese name? A Hmong name, or a Saudi name? What about a Lakota name? If not, then you're just as guilty. In fact, the entire French speaking world would be guilty of not being able to pronounce an "s" correctly, and let's not even start on the Asiatic languages, which are based largely on tonal systems instead of the languages predominant in the western world. Christ, there are UK accents that aren't even intelligible to native English speakers!


No we do not, but where a proper noun is used commonly (footballers are a good example as we must have one of those from most language groups on the planet), we make the effort to pronounce it correctly, usually by asking the 'owner' how it should be pronounced. Based on my observations, Americans do not seem to go the same lengths. If I am wrong and the examples I have given are isolated incidents, please correct me.


People take a foreign word to their language and generally do one of two things: 1) try to pronounce it as intended, but with their native dialect, language and accent affecting the outcome, or 2) they "homogenize" the word and integrate it into their native language and apply said rules to it. English is simply full of examples of #2 above.

With general words, that is perfectly acceptable, but doing so with proper nouns just comes across is rude and makes you seem either lazy or arrogant to the people who 'own' them. You'd get annoyed if I consistently pronounced your name incorrectly and made no efforts to correct myself.

[Wolfshade]

Maybe for you, I'd get in all sorts of trouble.

In the interest in equality, if you ever come down to my rugby club after a match/training and want to jump in the shower I am sure i can persuade the chaps, well aside from the centres, they aren't into that sort of thing.

In terms of pronunciation there are very ittirating ones, like the way that Gordon Brown pronouces Billions, or Anne Robinson who insists in putting a th at the end of thousand.

One of my favourites, a chap I worked with was "Featherhowie" pronouced Fenshem.

What does irritate me more than pronunciations, is using z instead of s and make nouns verbs by adding ize to it.
"Let me diarize that for you" NO! "Let me put in my diary" yes.

[Psychosplodge]

Diarize? WTF is that supposed to be?

[Wolfshade]

Diarize? WTF is that supposed to be?

I know right, we also had agendaize, I was like what? you mean put it on the agenda.

Management speak v2.3

[Wolfshade]

Diarize? WTF is that supposed to be?

I know right, we also had agendaize, I was like what? you mean put it on the agenda.

Management speak v2.3

[Psychosplodge]

Clearly needs more beta testing...

[Wolfshade]

Clearly needs more beta testing...

I'll betaize and repsondize shortly

[Psychosplodge]

okize getrightize onize itize

[Psychosplodge]

So has anyone seen this (http://tinyurl.com/cf6mrg3) study on the divergence of the two languages?

[Wolfshade]

I do disagree with it...

[Psychosplodge]

compelling argument though isn't it?

[Wolfshade]

Certainly, I would urge everyone to read it