A Second Faction? Possibly

[ElectricPaladin]

I've been thinking about it, and I've realized that having a second faction for every game I play is important to me. My Tau have sat on the shelf, largely, almost for as long as I've owned them. If they were the only Warhammer 40k faction I played, I would be incredibly disappointed. Luckily, though, I have my Blood Angels and my Blood Ravens (codex marines), so I always have something to play.

In Fantasy, though, I only have my Lizardmen. I'm beginning to wonder if that was a mistake.

So, what do you recommend as a faction that compliments Lizardmen in terms of giving me a variety of Warhammer Fantasy experiences?

[Wildeybeast]

Depends really. Do you want something similar or totally different? What sort of background and/or playstyle do you like?

[T-ORK-amada]

Do you play a Slaan.Magic Heavy list, or do you use lots of Saurus, perhaps skinks? If a magic build is what you run, then Dwarves would be diametrically opposed. If you play large blocks of Saurus with limited shooting, I would say Wood Elves as an antithesis to your army. Lots of Skirmishing shooty skinks? Beastmen. I know that I listed armies that are perhaps not favorites in the power balance, but Lizards can be super competitive. I like the armies listed because they have neat options and even though some people say they suck, with the right builds and tactics, they can be hard armies to deal with. Wood Elves are about Denial, Beastmen are about the hordes and redirects while Dwarves, can be very shooty and pretty good at hand to hand with a large hunk of no magic.

[ElectricPaladin]

All good questions - thanks.

At the moment I play my Lizardmen with Slaan (possibly double Slaan, someday - I own an unpainted and unassembled Lord Kroak model who I someday plan to field as a generic relic priest alongside the normal Slaan I've already painted), Saurus warriors and cavalry, supported by a couple of small squads of Skinks to redirect charges and harass the enemy's flanks. I also own a heavily magnetized stegadon that I can field as a warchief's mount, a priest's mount, or an ordinary stegadon of normal and ancient variety.

Perhaps someday I'll get him painted up.

Anyway, I really enjoy the magic phase of Fantasy - it's part of what drew me to the game - so I'm leery of a faction like Dwarves that can't participate in the magic phase at all. That said, despite my relative inexperience, I can definitely say that my Lizardmen are basically about being tough, durable, and magical. Dare you close and melee with me? Bring it - I can take it, and my cavalry will outflank you and make you regret getting pinned down in melee. Hang back and shoot at me? Ok. I can hammer you with spells while I close, and when I get the charge, you will regret it.

*Ahem* I think I'm definitely looking forward to getting these guys painted and taking them out for a spin. I've been in a 40k mode lately, but once I finish my Blood Ravens...

Anyway, I hope that this gives you some good information: I like my Lizardmen Slaan and Saurus-focused, heavy on the magic, with support from a couple of squads of shooty skinks. I like magic enough that I wouldn't want to play a faction that totally ignores it, but I think I could enjoy a faction that doesn't focus on it quite as much.

[Nightstalker]

Vampire Counts definately are strong in magic have killer character slots and some heavy hitters. but your shooting phase is pretty short
if you dont mind that you have almost nothing to do in the shooting phase warriors of chaos (except Khorne of course) could be your type of army.
if you dont mind the toughness of 3 Dark elves or highelves could be your thing.
or empire of course.

[ElectricPaladin]

Vampire Counts have some attractive models - I'm tempted.

I have elf rage - a condition where you find elves impossibly snooty and unappealing - so High Elves are right out. However, I do like to play evil elves caught in a state of eternal torment because of terrible decisions they have made (Everblight), so Dark Elves have a certain charm. I'll have to google their models to determine if I like what I see - it would certainly give me an excuse to field more Cold Ones...

The Empire also has a certain charm. I particularly enjoy their kind of dungeon-punk-ish clockwork aesthetic. Engineers on clockwork steeds, steam-powered tanks, artillery, and so on. Are there viable Empire builds that would let me maximize those?

So, I guess what I'm saying is, tell me more about Vampire Counts, Dark Elves, and Empire.

And anything else that I might have missed.

[Wildeybeast]

I play Empire and you can make any build you like with them, that's why they are so cool. Artillery has taken a nerf AND price hike, but it is still definitely viable if you want to go that way. Steam tanks are better than ever now, as well as being cheaper. Engineers are still pretty useful either for war machine support or sniping characters, though putting one on a mechanical steed would be a vanity choice as they serve no useful purpose in the game. If you are going artillery heavy you'll need plenty of cheap troops to make up the numbers, but the Empire has those in spades.

As for Dark Elves - the plastics are really nice, but anything in FC is at best showing it's age and at worst utterly horrible (harpies). DE are great to play with at the moment because they are so cheap and stupidly powerful in the magic phase with some nasty magic items, but with rumours of a new book in the next year or so, expect a sound beating with the nerf stick when that comes.

[ElectricPaladin]

If you are going artillery heavy you'll need plenty of cheap troops to make up the numbers, but the Empire has those in spades.


I should have mentioned that I generally don't enjoy horde armies. I'm not saying that I need to run elite armies - though I do tend to enjoy them more - but I want an army that is at least average on this measure. Too many grunts to paint and I get bored. Too many grunts to play with and I feel like the moments of awesome heroism are being drowned in tide after tide of boring models.

How does this change the calculation?

[ElectricPaladin]

What about Warriors of Chaos?

I don't like the aesthetic of the Daemons, but the Warriors have a little more... finesse. Plus, many of them are mostly human, which would help them contrast with my Lizards.

A thread on DakkaDakka describes the WoC thusly:

"Warriors of Chaos - Their playstyle centres around magic and solid close combat core troops which pack a punch, with characters which outshine most other races in terms of stats. These units can be further buffed with marks of the chaos gods and through warshrines, especially the chosen of chaos which can begin the game with both.

These come at a price however as you will be fielding a lot less characters and can field a small elite army full of warriors and chosen, or pad it out with the cheap marauders. They also have a smattering of monstrous infantry in their list (trolls, dragon ogres and trolls) and of course the shaggoth and giant.

Their casters have access to what is seen as some of the most powerful lores in the game and a lot of lists centre around this with ability to manipulate the magic phase in ways."

(Emphasis mine)

It looks like the WoC enjoy a lot of variety, both in terms of models and playstyles. I could still use a lot of magic, but take on a contrasting side in Warhammer Fantasy's conflicts. Best of all, I don't have to go hoard, but I can if I want to.

The only thing that may give me pause is that they are yet again another close combat focused army...

[Deadlift]

Ogre Kingdoms

Everyone loves large, fat men with beards who like a good feed :)

Seriously though they are nice to paint and putting together a reasonable army isn't
too hard due to the low model count.

I love the models, loads of fun and I think quite unique compared to the other armies.

[ElectricPaladin]

Hm... I'll have to check GW's site when I get back from work, but honestly, the Ogre Kingdoms models have never thrilled me. Fat and hungry can be fun, but it just doesn't appeal to me.

[Wildeybeast]

Warriors of Chaos are pretty much as you say, though there are strong rumours they are next book to be released, so I'd wait and see what that and the new range brings you if you are interested in them.

As for Empire I said you'd want plenty of troops because you are going to running a gun line, which means playing defensively. You could take plenty of elite troops to go with them, but I personally think you will struggle as most of the artillery comes out of your special allowance and you will be low on numbers. Still, if you build it right so you batter them enemy to bits, your elite troops could sweep in and mop them up. Like I said, you do pretty much anything with the Empire book.

[ElectricPaladin]

As for Empire I said you'd want plenty of troops because you are going to running a gun line, which means playing defensively. You could take plenty of elite troops to go with them, but I personally think you will struggle as most of the artillery comes out of your special allowance and you will be low on numbers. Still, if you build it right so you batter them enemy to bits, your elite troops could sweep in and mop them up. Like I said, you do pretty much anything with the Empire book.


I've been noodling around with my "borrowed" copy of the Warriors of Chaos army book, and I've got to say that I like what I see. Sure, they're almost as melee-focused as my Lizardmen, but I can do them a lot less magic-focused and still have plenty of nasty magical tricks, thanks to god-marks and such. I also like that they have a mounted Core unit. That means I can play a largely - even entirely? - calvary army, maybe supported by some other unusually fast units, like a warshrine or warhounds. I don't know if that's a viable choice, but that kind of sheer speed would be a neat change of pace from my plodding Lizardmen - even though I do love my cold one cavalry - and without sacrificing too much toughness.

I'm currently turning against the Empire. Looking at the line, it seems like only a handful of units have the steam-powered dungeon-punk feel that attracted me to units like the engineer on mechanical horse, artillery, and steam tanks. Most of the army has a more straight-up Germanic medieval feel. Not so exciting to me. Before I decide entirely against them, though, I think I'll "borrow" a copy of their army book, too, and see what I think.

I'm also waffling on Vampire Counts, mostly because I'm unsure what I think about the vampiric aesthetic. Perhaps I'll "borrow" a copy of their army book, too.

Dark elves are also in the running. I like the look of a lot of their line, though I can't argue that a lot of it looks left in the 80s. I'll need to "borrow" their book to make a final decision.

So... unless something changes my mind, the short list is probably going to be Warriors of Chaos, Vampire Counts, and Dark Elves, with the Empire almost - but not quite - out of the game.

Anyone got any advice to narrow this down further?

[ElectricPaladin]

To help me figure out which faction to go with for my second army, I've put together a small, 1k list for each of them. The idea is to give me an idea of what list building would be like for each faction and, on some level, what their tactics are.

If there is a stupidly obvious critique to the list, please make it. However, what I'm MOST interested in is this:
--> does the list actually express something true about this faction?
--> Will it do what it's supposed to do?
--> To sum it up, are my conclusions about the faction - as expressed by the list - accurate?

Remember that I'm not actually committing to buying these lists, just trying to get an idea of the

Here it goes:


ElectricPaladin's Warriors of Chaos @1k

Heroes
• Chaos Sorcerer (Level 2)
• Exalted Hero w/Chaos Runesword, Daemonic Mount, Shield

Core
• 12 Chaos Warriors w/Shields (Full Command, Mark of Nurgle)
• 6 Marauder Horsemen w/Flails & Throwing Axes (Full Command)

Special
• 5 Chaos Knights (Full Command)

I've got to admit that building this list has turned me against Warriors of Chaos and towards… Dark Elves at this point. It really does look like with the Warriors of Chaos I'll get a very similar list building and game experience to my Lizardmen: mostly melee, mostly tough and hard, magically powerful (though not quite as much). Sure, I could go hordes of marauders, but that just doesn't appeal…

Anyway, this list uses the chaos warriors as my anvil - hence the mark of Nurgle and defensive armament - while the knights, accompanied by the exalted hero, act as a hammer. The marauder horsemen are also capable of hammering, though I see using them mostly as a fast, mobile harassment unit.

Before I could expand this list, I think I'd need to decide what kind of chaos list I want: monotheistic, pantheistic, atheistic? But given that, I think I would want to add a chaos warshrine or two for more weird blessings of the dark gods goodness, and then a hellcannon, because it looks and sounds awesome. More knights, because they're totally badass, and possibly another unit of marauder horsemen.

Although I don't think Warriors of Chaos are BAD, I do think they are just a lot like Lizardmen, enough that I am at this point inclined to look elsewhere.


ElectricPaladin's Dark Elves @ 1k

Heroes
• Sorceress (Level 2) w/Crown of Black Iron, Dark Steed, Tome of Furion

Core
• 10 Dark Riders w/Repeater Crossbows (Full Command)
• 12 Warriors w/Shields (Full Command)

Special
• 5 Shades w/Bloodshade, Light Armor
• 5 Shades w/Bloodshade, Light Armor

Rare
• 10 Witch Elves (Full Command) w/Banner of Eternal Flame

I'm pretty sure there are some problems with this list - for example, I'm not sure if the shades really need bloodshade leaders - but the idea was to epitomize the speed and viciousness of the Dark Elves. The warriors are my anvil - hence the shields - and the dark riders are my hammer, while the shades are meant to deploy advantageously and harass the enemy at range. The witch elves are a secondary hammer, and also meant to take out whatever my opponent most wants to keep alive. The banner of eternal flame is meant to help them take out regenerating targets. Flame and poison, together again for the first time!

To expand this list, I'd add a cauldron of blood! Then some heavy cavalry. I'd also either upgrade my sorceress to a HIGH sorceress, or just add a high sorceress - possibly with a more impressive mount, like a dark pegasus or manticore… or dragon - and keep the ordinary sorceress. After that… I dunno. More soldiers, certainly, to keep up with the Core requirements of a larger list. And then a war hydra? A bolt thrower? I feel like I have a lot of options.

I think I'd enjoy this list. It has speed and maneuverability, which my Saurus lack, and although the sorceress isn't quite as magically powerful as my Slaan, she's still in the magic game enough to make me very happy.


ElectricPaladin's Vampires @ 1k

Heroes
• Vampire w/Great Weapon, Heavy Armor, Nightmare, Dread Knight, Summoning Creatures of the Night

Core
• 10 Crypt Ghouls (+Ghast)
• 10 Crypt Ghouls (+Ghast)
• 20 Dire Wolves

Special
• 5 Black Knights w/Lances (Full Command w/Banner of the Barrows)
• 10 Fell Bats

Ok, I've got to say that as of right now, vampires are out.

It isn't that the core choices are ineffective, unkilly, or bad. It's that they don't have any options for increasing their effectiveness except size, which makes this a horde army. No tough Saurus warriors with great armor saves and toughness. Heck - not even shields. As the size of the army increases, so to must the size of the undead hordes. I can minimize that, to a certain extent, with expensive units - some of which are attractive in terms of both rules and models - but I don't have any other options. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's not the style I prefer.

I may post later with an Empire list, but it seems unlikely. Looking at the army book is solidifying that it's just not my choice


• • •

So, as of the end of this experiment, it looks like I'll be playing Dark Elves. I'll have to chat with my style consultant (wife), because she's seriously never wrong about what I'll like, but there it is.

As for you, what are your thoughts? Any questions, comments, concerns?

[Wildeybeast]

Like I said, Warriors of Chaos is probably coming in November, I'd really recommend waiting to see how that shakes out before you make a decision. Also, bear in mind that Empire and VC are current edition books, so they will be fixed as they are for a while (and Empire have all the models available, not sure on VC), whilst your DE and WoC lists are likely to change in the next year or so. Don't know how that affects your thinking.

[ElectricPaladin]

Like I said, Warriors of Chaos is probably coming in November, I'd really recommend waiting to see how that shakes out before you make a decision. Also, bear in mind that Empire and VC are current edition books, so they will be fixed as they are for a while (and Empire have all the models available, not sure on VC), whilst your DE and WoC lists are likely to change in the next year or so. Don't know how that affects your thinking.

It's worth keeping in mind. However, really, how often does an army's style change completely between editions?

[eldargal]

I recommend fewer, larger units. Dire Wolves for example are better in units of 5 as chaff and flank harassers. With DE you would better having fewer dark riders (cavalry are more of a flank harasser too) and a larger unit of warriors, 12 won't last long at all.:)

Things don't change too dramatically between editions ordinarily, but WoC was one of the more OP books in 7th so it could change quite dramatically in the more balanced 8th edition. Still probably won't go wrong buying units you like the look of, most 8th books have few useless units.

[Wildeybeast]

The style won't change much, but the units you want to field might, especially if you get shiny new stuff. And to add to EG's DE advice, you might also want to take Witch Elves out of your special allowance rather than your rare. :p If you want a core anvil unit, use corsairs, more durable than warriors and better at fighting. And you want some harpies, harpies are great. Though the models are pig ugly, so you'll need to convert your own or buy some from other suppliers.

[ElectricPaladin]

The style won't change much, but the units you want to field might, especially if you get shiny new stuff.


That's fair, but in my experience I haven't yet been burned by starting out by buying what I like and then just adding the new shininess... or converting old stuff into new stuff.



And to add to EG's DE advice, you might also want to take Witch Elves out of your special allowance rather than your rare. :p


It seems that I "borrowed" an old version of the army book. Look for a new 2k list to appear in the list forums soon.



If you want a core anvil unit, use corsairs, more durable than warriors and better at fighting. And you want some harpies, harpies are great. Though the models are pig ugly, so you'll need to convert your own or buy some from other suppliers.

I'll consider both. I already know where to get some great wings.

[ElectricPaladin]

Ok, if I had to make a 1k Dark Elves list with the current army book, this is what I'd do:

Heroes
• Sorceress (Level 2) w/Dark Steed, Lifetaker, Ring of Darkness, Tome of Furion
• Master w/Blood Armor, Cold One, Potion of Speed, Soulrender

Core
• 9 Dark Riders w/Repeater Crossbows (Musician & Standard Bearer)
• 18 Corsairs w/Hand Weapons(Full Command)

Special
• 5 Cold One Knights (Full Command - Banner of Swiftness, Deathpiercer)

The master rides with the cold one knights, the sorceress rides with the dark riders. The corsairs are my anvil, the knights are my hammer, and the sorceress and her dark riders are my highly mobile harassment unit.

[War Painter]

That's fair, but in my experience I haven't yet been burned by starting out by buying what I like and then just adding the new shininess... or converting old stuff into new stuff.

I like how you think. lol

[Chris*ta]

If you want a core anvil unit, use corsairs, more durable than warriors and better at fighting.

The corsair models are much better looking too.

I wonder if they won't do a new set of the basic DE infantry, as they're looking quite aged now ... though they didn't release new HE infantry with the last army book ... so who knows.

[Wildeybeast]

I doubt it. They haven't done new versions of any of the existing plastic sets in this edition, which is understandable when you factor in new units and updating the old metal/FC stuff into plastic.

[Chris*ta]

I doubt it. They haven't done new versions of any of the existing plastic sets in this edition, which is understandable when you factor in new units and updating the old metal/FC stuff into plastic.

But have they had something as old as those Dark Elves?

There's the zombies ... but they're not nearly as bad. In that there's at least variation in the guys you can build with the kit :D

[Phototoxin]

Skaven - you could theme it around clan pestilins at the time when they were fighting the lizardmen in the jungle?

[ElectricPaladin]

Skaven - you could theme it around clan pestilins at the time when they were fighting the lizardmen in the jungle?

Skaven have the same problem as Warriors of Chaos and Undead: although I like the idea of the army - and the models - their playstyle doesn't match mine. Undead have powerful Lords and Heroes, but they rely on hordes of weak undead to serve as their Core units, Warriors of Chaos play too much like my primary faction (Lizardmen) - powerful magic-using units slinging spells from behind big blocks of hard hitting and hard-to-kill units with limited ranged capacity - and Skaven are like Undead. Dark Elves are different.

[Chris*ta]

I doubt it. They haven't done new versions of any of the existing plastic sets in this edition, which is understandable when you factor in new units and updating the old metal/FC stuff into plastic.

Wait, I just thought. Weren't the new Skaven Warriors this edition? And those minis were better than the Dark Elves, IMO.