Building and Emplacements - do they get cover saves?

[Moros]

Question is - do buildings and emplacements get cover saves?

my gut feelings is no, simply because it doesn't say anywhere under buildings or emplacements that they are allowed to take an cover/obsurred save. Thoughts?

[Nabterayl]

Buildings do. As page 92 says, "buildings use all the rules for transport vehicles" except for the exceptions there noted. We've even seen that this extends to building occupant getting Overwatch shots, because as transport passengers do, so there is no reason to think them immune from the rules that govern vehicles and cover or invulnerable saves.

Emplacements are a bit trickier to argue, paradoxically, because they are "battlefield debris." However, even page 105 recognizes that emplacements are represented by "models" rather than "terrain pieces" or the like. So emplacements are a rare case of something that is both a "model" and terrain - but, as a model, emplacements are eligible for cover saves just like normal. I think most opponents would agree that a quad gun behind a defense line "deserves" a cover save, just like a Thunderfire cannon or zzap gun would get, but if you need the formal argument, there it is.

[Moros]

Buildings do. As page 92 says, "buildings use all the rules for transport vehicles" except for the exceptions there noted. We've even seen that this extends to building occupant getting Overwatch shots, because as transport passengers do, so there is no reason to think them immune from the rules that govern vehicles and cover or invulnerable saves.

Emplacements are a bit trickier to argue, paradoxically, because they are "battlefield debris." However, even page 105 recognizes that emplacements are represented by "models" rather than "terrain pieces" or the like. So emplacements are a rare case of something that is both a "model" and terrain - but, as a model, emplacements are eligible for cover saves just like normal. I think most opponents would agree that a quad gun behind a defense line "deserves" a cover save, just like a Thunderfire cannon or zzap gun would get, but if you need the formal argument, there it is.

I think you're quote is wrong - page 92 says that "buildings of all types use ASPECTS of the Transport vehicle rules." So they aren't treated as vehicles at all, they follow some parts of the vehicle rules.

Which is why I don't think either get obsurred saves... cause it doesn't say anywhere that they do nor does it say anywhere that they are "treated as vehicles in all respects"

[Nabterayl]

I'm not sure I agree. Units may shoot at building "just as if it was a vehicle" (page 93). On what basis do you exempt the vehicle cover rules from the "Shooting at Vehicles" section beginning on page 72 as applied to buildings? I understand the basis for not using the vehicle damage table, but why do you carve out cover as well?

[Moros]

I'm not sure I agree. Units may shoot at building "just as if it was a vehicle" (page 93). On what basis do you exempt the vehicle cover rules from the "Shooting at Vehicles" section beginning on page 72 as applied to buildings? I understand the basis for not using the vehicle damage table, but why do you carve out cover as well?

Im not exempting the obscured rules at all - the obsured rules are never applied to buildings at all. The only thing the rules say is that you "shoot and penatrate" buildings the same way as vehicles... shooting at a vehicle doesn't automatically mean it has an obscured save. An obscured save is a special modifier that only applies when certain criteria are met. It doesn't say anywhere that a building follows the obscured rules, it just says you shoot at them (aka roll to hit) and roll to penetrate vs them the same way as vehicles.

[Nabterayl]

The only thing the rules say is that you "shoot and penatrate" buildings the same way as vehicles... shooting at a vehicle doesn't automatically mean it has an obscured save. An obscured save is a special modifier that only applies when certain criteria are met.
I don't think that's an accurate paraphrase. Page 93 says, "Units may shoot at or charge an occupied building just as if it was a vehicle."

"Just as if" means, essentially, "pretend it is." If I spoke to you "just as if" you were my wife, I pretend that you were my wife and speak accordingly. Similarly, if we shoot at a building "just as if" it was a vehicle, we go through the rules for shooting at vehicles, pretending that the building is a vehicle.

Shooting at a vehicle doesn't automatically mean it has an obscured save, no, but shooting at a vehicle does mean automatically mean that you check if the vehicle has a cover save. You cannot finish shooting at a vehicle according to the sequence presented on pages 73 and 74 without checking whether the vehicle is in cover and permitting it to take a cover save against each glancing or penetrating hit, if the facing the shots are coming from is at least 25% obscured.