Harlequin Allies

[eldargal]

If I'm playing a Codex: Eldar army and take Dark Eldar Allies, if I take extra Harlequins as part of that allied allotment, do those Harlequins get the benefit of Fortune and Guide from a Farseer when you go by the ruling of the new FAQ:


Q: Do Dark Eldar allies count as Eldar for the Farseer psychic
powers Fortune and Guide? (p28)
A: No.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I would say not, they're still being taken from that Codex.

[eldargal]

I agree. Which shows how silly this is. Harlequins are no more Dark Eldar than they are Craftworld Eldar and the unit entry in the DE codexwas copy and pasted from Codex: Eldar but one gets access to Farseer powers and one does not. Meanwhile every idiot SM libraran and his monkey can cast whatever crap they like on whomever they wish.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

*facepalm*

Soooooooooooo close. So so close.

[eldargal]

By whomever they wish I mean brothers in arms on the allies chart.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

There was so nearly an Eldar thread without Space Marines being involved... So close. :p

*cough* top psyker is level 1 *cough*

[eldargal]

That level 1 psyker can still use his (one) codex buff power (The Gate of Infinity) on allies if he wants.:p

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

No he can't. He only has 3 powers.
Mind Worm
Hellfire
Force Barrier
:p

He can swap them, I don't know what Lores for though.

[Psychosplodge]

So why take them as allies and not in the Eldar force?

[eldargal]

Because Allies lets you have two more.:p Four squads of Harlequins is a lot of rending attacks and the fact is they are really the only C:Eldar elite choice I think there is any point taking at the moment.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Harlequins are pretty hilarious. :p

[Psychosplodge]

Fair enough, only four? can't you squeeze six in :D

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

You can fit 8 at 2k points...

[Psychosplodge]

So a Harlequin army then...

[eldargal]

Right, elite slot is three I was forgetting.:rolleyes:

Hm, idea for a Crone World raid Harlequin list. Two or three squads of rangers and as many Harlequins as physically possible. I like this idea,to the pen and paper!

[Psychosplodge]

Almost tempted to start an Eldar army to do that lol

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Have you got to it yet EG??? :D

[energongoodie]

Hm, idea for a Crone World raid Harlequin list. Two or three squads of rangers and as many Harlequins as physically possible. I like this idea,to the pen and paper!

I really like this army idea. It has a nice old school, rogue trader feel about it. What would be your tank taking down tools?

I'm off to see about buying some harlequins.

[Psychosplodge]

Ignore the tanks? can they capture objectives? just stay out their LOS

[Autarch]

I totally disagree with the consensus on CW Eldar not being able to be cast psychic powers on Dark Eldar. Its such a bogus rules lawyering, Read As Written interpretation, that is so obviously contrary to the spirit of the new allies system and the benefits of Battle Brothers.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Don't Harlies have Meltabombs or Haywire Grenades or something?

I know they definitely have Fusion Pistols.

[Psychosplodge]

Don't Harlies have Meltabombs or Haywire Grenades or something?
I know they definitely have Fusion Pistols.

I suppose they'll probably help too.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I don't agree with the Psychic Power block, but it fits the Dark Eldar perfectly fine, they don't want Slaanesh looking at them, not even a little bit. Why would they let a Psyker attract Slaanesh to them?!

[Psychosplodge]

But that it should effect the Harlequins too?

[OrksOrksOrks]

Its in the rules, but seriously, just don't play with someone who holds you to that ridiculous ruling if its a problem, what would the solution be for this then? Species keywords in unit descriptions?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Exactly, you could make it a house rule. Harlequins couldn't care less about Psykers, they'll be taken by Cegorach anyway.
It currently goes on a Codex by Codex basis, which leaves room for flaws.

[Psychosplodge]

Some such wording that says "applies to Dark eldar units only" with harlequins being available to both eldar they aren't dark eldar, simples.

OMG I feel like I've ventured into that part of the forum

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

It should be worded "units from Codex: Dark Eldar", or you could argue that the Beasts can be Guided/Fortuned. :p

[eldargal]

Agreed, we are probably going to houserule it in my group so they can.

I totally disagree with the consensus on CW Eldar not being able to be cast psychic powers on Dark Eldar. Its such a bogus rules lawyering, Read As Written interpretation, that is so obviously contrary to the spirit of the new allies system and the benefits of Battle Brothers.

I've not given much thought to anti-tank or list writing yet, while looking for my army list notebook I was distracted by chocolate.

[Psychosplodge]

Exclusive codex dark eldar units?

Or just put in the harlequins codex entry that they can benefit from battle brother powers as don't share the DE aversion to it?

@what chocolate?

[gcsmith]

Isn't there a lore reason you could use to say they can't be affected?

CW:Eldar only use powers because they have the spirit stones to protect them. Dark Eldar don't. Maybe they don't cast on them so Slannesh doesn't take their souls?

Poor reasoning, but I have yet to actually play eldar :D

[DrLove42]

Guide and Fortune. IO can't remember the exact wording on Guide, but Fortune is about examining the Skeins and your fate and moving you to avoid it.

Theres no reason they can't do that for a DE, they show up just as well

[eldargal]

I've made a Harlequin Crone World raid list here (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?24706-2000pt-Harlequin-Crone-World-Raid-list), opinions solicited.

There really isn't a justifiavle fluff reason for it, Dark Eldar are still Eldar and it doesn't really involve any psychicness on the part of the target unit.

[DrLove42]

Comments made on your list.

Is this all inspired by the awesome Quin goodness in Outcast?

I'm hoping for more of them in Incubi.

[Psychosplodge]

Is this all inspired by the awesome Quin goodness in Outcast?
.

Careful it's on my to read pile under three other books.

[DrLove42]

LOL you won't be disappointed. Its a great book. A lot more action that the other Eldar books

[Psychosplodge]

Gd, gd. Finished Embedded yesterday, started Caspian gates today. Might bump outcast upto next cause there'll be some new release at gamesday no doubt...

[eldargal]

Yep, I'm pretty much halfway through (seriously page 204 or somethingout of 408) and while the Harlequins haven't seen much action yet they have been rather nifty.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Dat Solitaire. :p

[Nabterayl]

Some such wording that says "applies to Dark eldar units only" with harlequins being available to both eldar they aren't dark eldar, simples.

OMG I feel like I've ventured into that part of the forum

I hope this isn't going to scare Psychosplodge too much, but I don't think you even need a house rule. As the various space marine and IG FAQs have pointed out, GW is perfectly capable of amending the rules to say "units from Codex: X" when it wants to. I don't have an Eldar codex to hand at work, but don't the farseer powers still specify that they work on eldar, rather than units from Codex: Eldar? If so, I don't think it's twisting the FAQ to point out that GW didn't write "units from Codex: Dark Eldar" in the FAQ. Making the question turn on whether harlies come from the DE codex is reading into the FAQ something that GW didn't write. The only question is whether harlequins are dark eldar or eldar.

The question is similar to the ork Mob Rule!, which requires the player to count how many "orks" are in a unit, without ever defining what an "ork" is. To figure out (correctly) that a non is an ork and thus counts for purposes of the Mob Rule!, you have to just read the codex. Similarly, I think the dark eldar codex is pretty clear that by this point, dark eldar are a pretty distinct subspecies of the eldar race as a whole, enough so that they are not, for rules purposes, "eldar." But I don't see any such suggestion about harlequins.

TL;DR, where does the FAQ say we care what codex they come from? The FAQ asks if they're Dark Eldar, not if they come from a particular book. Beasts = not eldar. Wyches = not eldar. Harlequins = eldar.

[Chris*ta]

@ Nabterayl: That sounds suspiciously like common sense. and common sense has no place in a GW rules discussion, much less on the internet :D

I like that this means when you deploy, you've got to say this is a C:E Harlequin unit, and this is a C: DE Harlequin unit. Which is similar to, but entirely different from, saying this is a C:SM Tactical Squad, and this is a C: DA Tactical Squad.

Harlequins: Identical choices in codex, but different on the table. Tactical Marines: Different choices in codex, but identical on the table.

[Nabterayl]

Ha! That's just rules lawyering by an actual lawyer, instead of somebody who only plays one in the Internet. Thank you, though :)

I do note that even if I'm right, you would still have to keep note of which harlequins come from which codex for transport purposes. Even if they are "eldar" for rules purposes, dark eldar harlies couldn't embark on eldar transports, because they're still only battle brothers.

[Kyban]

The way I see it is if you have an Eldar IC in a DE unit it counts as a DE and Eldar unit because ICs count as part of the unit for all rules purposes. Fortune and guide only need to target an Eldar unit then all models in the unit benefit. That's from a rules perspective though, if you try determining what's DE and what's not by fluff it can get a bit murky. I personally think they should be able to be cast on all battle brothers though because it seemed plain to me that Phil Kelly used "Eldar" instead of "friendly" when he wrote the codex in 4th where there were no allies.

[Psychosplodge]

I hope this isn't going to scare Psychosplodge too much

So you knew what I meant? :D

[Chris*ta]

I do note that even if I'm right, you would still have to keep note of which harlequins come from which codex for transport purposes. Even if they are "eldar" for rules purposes, dark eldar harlies couldn't embark on eldar transports, because they're still only battle brothers.

I find that rule a bit silly, and kind of unnecessary. Is there some specific ORSUM KOMBO it's trying to avoid? It just seems like a rule that will be easy to forget, and doesn't make much difference to the game. I'd personally vote for you can't start the game in an allied transport, but all bets are of once the bullets start flying. Which is, I suppose even more specific, but feels right.

Don't blame me, I read articles on the M:TG website, and they actually, y'know, discuss rules decisions, why they make them and games design philosophy where relevant. It makes me think of the relatively recent decision to get rid of the mana burn rule.

It's not like in real life, you wouldn't transport allies in a combat zone.

[Nabterayl]

So you knew what I meant? :D
Heh. I hate that kind of rule discussion too. All I ask when people ask a rules question is that all participants (i) assume that those reading the thread are adult enough to distinguish between what the rules say and how people should play, and (ii) focus their answers on what the text actually says. Apparently that is, all too often, too much to ask for :p

[OrksOrksOrks]

of course the real, actual solution is for Hallies to be removed from both books and become a seperate allies only army list in WD, which makes more sense thematically too.

[Psychosplodge]

And could be both potentially awesome, and lead to more harlequin models...