Lumbering Behemoth - Heavy - what does this mean?

[Denzark]

Chaps and Chapesses.

Lots of initial discussion on this. Thoughts seem to be - non-ordnance LR get a buff, ordnance LR don't. I think this is possibly correct RAW, but not RAI - the whole point of tank STC is to maximise firepower. If you could work it on heavy weapons then it would naturally follow to ordnance. However fully acknowledge this fluff approach is irrelevant.

I have seen an interpretation as follows:

1. The veh ordnance rule is an addition to the ordnance rule, which prohibits moving and firing.

2. The veh ordnance rule allows you to move AND fire ordnance but makes all other weapons snap fire.

3. A stationary vehicle is allowed to fire all weapons. That rule has no exceptions in it.

4. The HEavy rule allows you to count as stationary so you are not moving and firing ordnance, so you don't need to snap fire the other weapons - you default to step 3 above and get to fire all weapons without penalty.


Thoughts from the floor?

[SeattleDV8]

It's #2.
BRB page 71
...a vehicle that fires an Ordnance weapon can only make Snap Shots with its other weapons that turn.

Movement doesn't matter.

[JamesP]

There was some discussion about the interaction between the Heavy vehicle type and firing Ordnance concerning the Monolith when 6th came out. The conclusion was, as posted above, movement doesn't matter and firing Ordnance means you can only make Snap Shots with the other weapons that you can fire. Heavy means that you can fire more weapons though.

Under 'moving and shooting with vehicles' on page 71, it says that a stationary vehicle can fire all of its weapons and one that moves at combat speed can fire one weapon using its full ballistic skill and shoot the others using Snap Shots.

Under 'vehicles and ordnance weapons', also on page 71, it says that:

i) vehicles can move and fire with ordnance weapons, unlike other types of unit/model; and

ii) 'a vehicle that fires an ordnance weapon can only make Snap Shots with its other weapons that turn' - note that this says 'a vehicle' and not 'a stationary vehicle' or 'a moving vehicle' so it applies whenever a vehicle fires ordnance.

So Heavy only really benefits you if your Russ' main weapon is non-Ordnance. In that case, you can blaze away with all your guns at normal BS rather than just firing one at full BS and the others at BS1.

FWIW, being Heavy only benefits the Monolith if it doesn't fire its Particle Whip but uses its Portal of Exile and 4 Flux Arcs.

[Nabterayl]

Agreed with the previous two. Firing ordnance, whether you've moved or not, means firing all other weapons as Snap Shots, full stop. Stationary vehicles don't even have authorization to fire all weapons at full Ballistic Skill, remember. Structurally, because you normally fire weapons at full Ballistic Skill, a stationary vehicle does so unless it has another rule telling it to do otherwise - e.g., if it is firing at a zooming flyer or is firing ordnance that turn. So there should not be even a perceived conflict between the stationary vehicle and ordnance firing rules.

While this IS undoubtedly a nerf to tanks firing ordnance, I'm not convinced that it is not RAI. GW clearly conceives of ordnance weapons as packing a lot of kick, and the Leman Russ is - energy weaponry aside - an extremely primitive vehicle. It weighs only sixty tons, yet has a top ROAD speed of 35 kph, and has always been described as a cramped, bumpy ride. No gyro-stabilization here. So I can well believe that the latest conception of the Leman Russ at GW is that firing a battle cannon SHOULD shake the crew around like peas in a tin can, while weapons with less recoil such as the Conqueror or Executioner don't rattle the vehicle enough to throw off the other crew members' aim or concentration.

[Wildcard]

Thats fine by the fluff.. but the reason i assume that many players (or those playing IG atleast :) ) are confused about this is that:

- With 6th altering stuff, IG has already lots of points going into the vendettas and artillery (because both got serious buffs - artillery more than anything else i could claim), making it harder choice to include tanks into the lists.
- With the new ruling, 2 out of 7 leman russ variants are reduced in effectiveness seriously, demolisher even more.

Its not that i am against seeing those less used variants on the table, but its that unnecessary reduction in effectiveness of the most basic version while seriously affecting its performance.

(Personally i have modeled my russes in a way that if i'd like to use them wysiwyg, the loadout would be completely useless after firing the battlecannon...)

[Nabterayl]

I can understand that. The RAW still seems quite clear though, and I don't really see any reason to believe they did this unintentionally. Yes, it's a nerf to many existing Russ builds, but it matches their clear effort to expand the use of USRs and doesn't conflict with any other rules.

[Denzark]

Assuming they were trying to fix balance in the IG codex, and decided that lumbering behemoth, no matter how fluffy, is massively unfair, how the hell are they missing the 130pt Vendettas?

The point is a 15 point lascannon upgrade is now 33% as effective as it used to be - making its cost 3x what it should be. And again, because of a lack of modifiers in this game, moving your russ and shooting a stationary target, say the size of a Fortress of redemption, with your non-ordnance weapon, is as accurate as shooting at a supersonic pointy nosed engine of doom zipping about the skies. Awesome.

[Nabterayl]

Well, yes and no. I mean, I'm not saying that GW had a game balance point in mind or that I agree with it if it did, but the driver's lascannon didn't ONLY get worse. It got a hell of a lot better when paired with multi-melta sponsons, for instance.

[Kevlarshark]

Assuming they were trying to fix balance in the IG codex, and decided that lumbering behemoth, no matter how fluffy, is massively unfair, how the hell are they missing the 130pt Vendettas?

The point is a 15 point lascannon upgrade is now 33% as effective as it used to be - making its cost 3x what it should be. And again, because of a lack of modifiers in this game, moving your russ and shooting a stationary target, say the size of a Fortress of redemption, with your non-ordnance weapon, is as accurate as shooting at a supersonic pointy nosed engine of doom zipping about the skies. Awesome.

You are right, massively unfair compared to not having it but its pretty even handed when compared to Power Of the Machine Spirit or Psybolts! Tinkering with a rule that did not need fixed = no russes on battlefields but lots of vendettas.

[Demonus]

As a former Monolith user, Russ users get no sympathy from me =P.