Issues with barrage weapons and overwatch rules

[Uberbeast]

So, I'm learning the hard way that barrage weapons are now the best sniping weapons in the game. A single sentence requires that their wound allocation be done from the center of the template, meaning that a hit or decently low scatter roll will require that the model targeted will take all wounds first. Compound this with the fact that the more models under the template means more chances to destroy the single target you have marked out.

Last night my ork horde learned this at the hands of two BA whirlwinds which singled out all my nobs and characters from a distance, focus firing on them and sniping them out of units until my army was leaderless.

The real kicker here is that vehicles can move and fire ordinance barrage weapons now as well, and BA whirlwinds are fast tanks so they were litterally driving 12" each turn avoiding the orks that had made it into their deployment zone and sniping my army to pieces with indirect fire weapons.

Now, I have a dozen little quirks in the rules that I'm not too big on, but turning barrage weapons into character snipers is absolutely nuts. "Look out sir" simply doesn't help enough when every single model under the template multiplies the effect (and waters down your warbosses toughness), essentially increasing the danger for single models in large units over ones in tiny units or simply running by themselves. Instead of hitting a lot of targets with an indiscriminate blast, these weapons are potentially focus-fire characters killing sniper shots.

Lastly, we also found a way to almost completely mitigate overwatch shooting by using terrain or vehicles to block the majority of an attacking unit from being in LOS. This was done by exposing a single model to initiate the charge while the rest hid out of LOS, and therefore only risking a single model as a casualty. Since the unit already declared the charge, it is can still continue the charge even if the model with original LOS is lost. The first time this happened was as an accident, but you can immagine how annoyed the player who wasted 50 snapshots on a single enemy model only to get charged anyway felt. This same "tactic" also allows an attacker to essentially waste an enemy's overwatch with one partially "hidden" unit, and then pile a second assault unit into the combat with no problem.

As much as I like the 6th edition I can't believe they really playtested this stuff. I've seen similar rules work very well in other games with just a few differences.

[OrksOrksOrks]

If the unit is LOS was killed, then you have to use the next closest unit to measure the charge range, this is risky if the rest are behind LOS blocking cover as they will have to move around it, meaning further to move and less chance of them making the charge.

And I really don't understand how having more models in a unit makes it harder to pass a Look out Sir! roll? are you sure you're following that rule correctly with a 4+ for the nob or 2+ for an IC you can pass on each wound to one of the squad, the more you have in the squad, the more times you get to do that, right?

[isotope99]

The barrage rule is silly but as it's fairly clear in the rulebook it may not get changed very much any time soon. FAQs are usually focussed on more ambiguous interpretations.

Only way I can think of to mitigate it is to try and maximise the space around your nob in some way to minimise the number of hits that the unit overall takes. IIRC you only have to restore coherency in your turn so could potentially clear extra space with dead models too. Ork squad level nobs have definitely taken a battering in this edition with challenges and precision shots, or this kind of abstract chicanery but large mobs of basic shoota boyz are even better so it kind of balances out.

I thought snap shots were resolved at minimum range not maximum range, i.e. when the assaulters are right on top of the unit they are charging so you'd have to have an odd situation charging round a corner or something for this second scenario to apply. There's an example in the rulebook where short range weapons can be used against a unit that starts out of range.

Remember if a rule doesn't make sense to you, you and your opponent can have a 'gentleman's agreement' not to use it.

[Renegade]

Change up your list and balance out what you take.

Three things to assume.

1. The other player will be looking to dictate the game to play to the strengths of their list.

2. You will face pie plates and other template weapons.

3. The army opposite is likely to have weapons or is designed to combat your strengths and prey on your weakness.

Nothing wrong with barrage weapons rules, remember what happened and come back harder, stronger, faster, better. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVi9bJ-hKyE)

[Uberbeast]

If the unit is LOS was killed, then you have to use the next closest unit to measure the charge range, this is risky if the rest are behind LOS blocking cover as they will have to move around it, meaning further to move and less chance of them making the charge.

And I really don't understand how having more models in a unit makes it harder to pass a Look out Sir! roll? are you sure you're following that rule correctly with a 4+ for the nob or 2+ for an IC you can pass on each wound to one of the squad, the more you have in the squad, the more times you get to do that, right?

If you do the charge right, you're only adding an inch or two, and piling in at each initiative step gets all the guys in the back into the combat fairly easily.

Also, what I mean about the more models in the unit is that the more models under the template that get wounded, the more wounds your character will have to survive. Sure he gets look out sir rolls for them, but he simply has to take way more saves in general than if fewer models were hit and wounded under the template.



I thought snap shots were resolved at minimum range not maximum range, i.e. when the assaulters are right on top of the unit they are charging so you'd have to have an odd situation charging round a corner or something for this second scenario to apply. There's an example in the rulebook where short range weapons can be used against a unit that starts out of range.

The overwatch fire takes place the moment the charge is declared, from the position the chargers start from using all the normal shooting restrictions. I'm not sure there are too many weapons with a range shorter than 12", but RAW any that do have a shorter range wouldn't be able to fire if the charge started outside their range. You might be thinking of fantasy and the stand and shoot rule which works the way you describe.

[OrksOrksOrks]

If you do the charge right, you're only adding an inch or two, and piling in at each initiative step gets all the guys in the back into the combat fairly easily.

Also, what I mean about the more models in the unit is that the more models under the template that get wounded, the more wounds your character will have to survive. Sure he gets look out sir rolls for them, but he simply has to take way more saves in general than if fewer models were hit and wounded under the template.


Hmm, as long as you're not piling your boys up in a massive heap and you're spreading them out 2" apart, you shouldn't get many extra wounds surely?

And the extra inch or two can make or break a charge, i think its worth losing a few boyz to make sure the other 20 odd get into the fight, where they can avoid all those templates!!

[Uberbeast]

Hmm, as long as you're not piling your boys up in a massive heap and you're spreading them out 2" apart, you shouldn't get many extra wounds surely?

And the extra inch or two can make or break a charge, i think its worth losing a few boyz to make sure the other 20 odd get into the fight, where they can avoid all those templates!!

You only need two wounds to kill the nob or any character except the warboss which only needs three. Even if you are spread out fairly thinly, you almost have to put your character off on a trail of stretched out bodies to prevent him from getting excessive hits from crowding, and that is also a self-defeating tactic as you don't nessesarily want him in the front because of regular shooting and to put him in the rear or side you risk isolating him from combat. Consider also, that higher strength weapons really only need one hit to potentially instant kill a target character.

I'm assuming you're an ork player by your name, so you've got to know that spreading out isn't always as easy to do on a table covered with terrain and other orks as it is by simply typing it up on a forum and imagining the picture in your head. There are so many sitiations like at the end of a combat where a whole mob will be concentrated in a lump and can't consolidate/spread out fast enough to avoid a good template hit.

I disagree that an inch or two is a really big deal when by using a LOS blocking vehicle you can risk losing only a single model to a whole mob of rapid firing overwatch guardsmen. You can get as close as you like beforehand anyway, and there is also the possibility of using this tactic as part of a multiple unit charge sequence to risk a single casualty from a unit that is on the fringe of charge range so that another of your assault units can completely escape overwatch when they charge the target a moment later.

[DarkLink]

Spread out enough that if your opponent wants to hit your nob, he will only hit the nob and maybe one other model if needed to maintain coherency. He can either hit a bunch of your boyz elsewhere, or get a mere 2 hits on the Nob/Warboss. You can do that even if you have to clump other stuff together.