the dark angels, a quick Q

[Cpt Codpiece]

ok now i have read most DA stuff (i am missing a few of the current M41 era books) and i have a grasp of what GW wants us to think of the fall and i have my own opinions on what happened.

this is just a general Q to those out there that may have a differing view to me.

the DA that were taken by the warp rift and scattered through space-time.... do you see them as debased chaos worshippers?

or just black armoured DA?

i have long had on the back burner a plan for a PH DA force. my own opinions however conflict with the notion that the warp monkeyed DA turned to chaos.

put simply. would you see the 'fallen' as?
chaos like the black legion (mutants and possessed) or
chaos as the alpha legion (nasty pasties, still pure and not bothered by all the mumbo jumbo) or
just a C:SM or C: DA force painted black

LOL at smiley in poll

[Wolfshade]

It all depends on how they react after the fall.
Do they continue to fall and embrace chaos
Do they continue to fight against chaos in their own style
Do they realise the error of their ways, repent and become zealous crusaders

[Cpt Codpiece]

but all of those scenarios are based on the assumption that it was the fallen who fell, and that it was the lion who was triumphant.

we all know the green DA are liars and shady shakey hands club kind of guys, its not a big stretch to think that the green guys are the true fallen and the black armoured guys are the 'true' dark angels...... why else would they be hunted to the extent that they are?

the guilty and ashamed are the stongest advocates of violent/quick suppession of the truth.

[DrLove42]

This ^

40K is a universe that fans conspiracy theories and in many cases encourages them as a possible truth.

I like the idea of the Fallen being the true DA as it just adds a more interesting story. It also acts as a counter balence to the idea the Alpha Legion sided with Horus but aren't necessarily bad.

One of the traitor legions are loyal and one of the loyalists are former traitors (or still are....and are biding there time)

[Psychosplodge]

I think that while some of the fallen embraced chaos and the renegades, others probably just disappeared, or became secessionists, or local warlords etc. essentially they all went against the will of the lion.

[OrksOrksOrks]

I think that while some of the fallen embraced chaos and the renegades, others probably just disappeared, or became secessionists, or local warlords etc. essentially they all went against the will of the lion.

The Lion was the traitor, he moved half his forces from the crusades, the ones he knew wouldn't remain loyal to him if he decided to stand against the Emporer, he was too smart to commit either way until it looked like one side was going to win, when the Battle for Terra went to the Loyalists (why couldn't he get there? Caliban isn't that far from Terra and he was "the greatest strategist of the Primachs") he destroyed the "Fallen" and declared them traitors.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

The Fallen DA are not a unified organization, they're hundreds of individuals, usually with no contact whatsoever with other Fallen, apart from Cypher, and they would have all reacted in different ways. Some would want revenge on the Imperium and fall to Chaos, others would hate both Chaos and the Imperium, some would become neutral parties, others might attempt to help the Imperium from behind the scenes. All, even if they still care for the Imperium, would probably despise the loyalist DA, though.

[Psychosplodge]

^thats a more eloquent way of saying what I meant XD

[Cpt Codpiece]

The Lion was the traitor, he moved half his forces from the crusades, the ones he knew wouldn't remain loyal to him if he decided to stand against the Emporer, he was too smart to commit either way until it looked like one side was going to win, when the Battle for Terra went to the Loyalists (why couldn't he get there? Caliban isn't that far from Terra and he was "the greatest strategist of the Primachs") he destroyed the "Fallen" and declared them traitors.

this is pretty much my train of thought. from the HH books i get the feeling that the lion was more inclined to back horus, maybe he thought he would ultimatly fail in his quest for the throne, so held his reserve force back to clean up the mess. then when the events that transpired at tsugualsa and perditus (and t'chulka) his only logical path was to purge his secret reserves to try and cover up his indecision and heretic actions. ultimatly commiting a more heretic action in doing so.

t'chulka could have got the lion to terra easily but he waited the battle out.

but anyway, my main question and reason for the pole, was to try and see if a mutated force would be popular to represent the fallen be they the true loyalists or the heretics. (i was thinking of doing my chaos from DV as fallen)

i guess my opinion is just too strong and i cant get myself to do 'chaos' fallen LOL

[OrksOrksOrks]

I think that the Fallen are more like renegade questing knights generally, fighting to survive against those who call themselves Dark Angels who are ruthlessly hunting them down to cover the crimes of the Primarch, with some having fallen totally to Chaos to survive or through bitterness and anger at the way they were treated. But thats just my take on it. Cypher being the misunderstood and hunted loyalist, battling against all odds, trying to take his sword to the golden throne is just such a cool image.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

but anyway, my main question and reason for the pole, was to try and see if a mutated force would be popular to represent the fallen be they the true loyalists or the heretics. (i was thinking of doing my chaos from DV as fallen)

i guess my opinion is just too strong and i cant get myself to do 'chaos' fallen LOLThinking about it; nothing's stopping the Fallen from having their own "children", yes? Perhaps a single Fallen made a pact with Fabius Bile, who over the course of decades replicated the Fallen's geneseed (the Mechanicus do this with Loyalist geneseed) sufficiently to produce a warband for that Fallen. Whether or not the Fallen himself is given to Chaos/mutation, he'd probably gladly allow his minions to twist and change to make them better warriors.

[Wildeybeast]

but all of those scenarios are based on the assumption that it was the fallen who fell, and that it was the lion who was triumphant.

we all know the green DA are liars and shady shakey hands club kind of guys, its not a big stretch to think that the green guys are the true fallen and the black armoured guys are the 'true' dark angels...... why else would they be hunted to the extent that they are?

the guilty and ashamed are the stongest advocates of violent/quick suppession of the truth.


The Lion was the traitor, he moved half his forces from the crusades, the ones he knew wouldn't remain loyal to him if he decided to stand against the Emporer, he was too smart to commit either way until it looked like one side was going to win, when the Battle for Terra went to the Loyalists (why couldn't he get there? Caliban isn't that far from Terra and he was "the greatest strategist of the Primachs") he destroyed the "Fallen" and declared them traitors.

Have you guys actually read the HH books??? It is made perfectly clear that Luther briefly contemplates allowing the Lion to die at the hands of assassins, the Lion is less than impressed and banishes him and those under his command back to Caliban (which is rather merciful considering). They get all mardy there and side with the human rebels who seek to remove Imperial rule. They may not be traitors in the same sense Horus is, but they are most definitely rebels. And he commits his forces pretty much instantly in battle against Horus, even before the Drop Site Massacre. Sure he is ambitious and makes clear that he wants the title of Warmaster when Horus is dealt with, but he is unwaveringly loyal to the Emperor.

[Cpt Codpiece]

the only heretic point by luther that i got from the HH books was infact the doubt about the bomb.

i went and re-read the two DA books after the last debate on the subject, and to be honest i thought luther tried to stop the humans.... as to totally stop them it would have required wiping out caliban. the whole confontation in the tower while it paints luther as a witch/sorcerer enforces he wants to do right.
also it was not the imperial rule that the calibanites were against it was the strip mining of its resources, and the manner it was handled. in fairness none of the other homeworlds of the primarchs are said to have been plundered in such a way and i am not including nostramo or olympia as that was very different.

as to the lion being the supreme stratigist and committing his forces.... well he didnt think at all when he gave the iron warriors the most destructive weapons he could have, without consideration. and he messed about chasing kurze... cause he called him names and said luther was turning.

spoiler alert
also the lion disregarded the edict of nikea and decapatated one of his chaplains just so he could use the librarius, not even magnus did that! then he went on to use xenos/warp tech to his own agenda, verbalising that the univerese be damned if he could not get his own way, with daddy on the throne.

well he got his wish, and a bit more into the bargain.

[Wildeybeast]

Kuther didn't try very hard though did he? It was rather chumpy to give stuff to the Iron Warriors, given that it was fuelled by ambition, though he had no reason to suspect them, nor did any of the other legions. It doesn't really matter why the Calibanites rebelled, what matters is that they did. And ultimately it was a rebellion against Imperial rule because it had it's seeds in the Lions killing of the great beasts and the breaking down of the old orders. they resented him ruling over them not because of the decision he made but because he ruled over them, same with the Imperium. I'll admit Caliban does get treated a bit harsher than the rest of the primarch worlds, but the others are either godforsaken hell holes that can contribute nothing other than soldiers or are already pulling their weight.

[Cpt Codpiece]

i just got the grey angel.
yeah Luther was pissed with the imperium and scared of retribution from the lion (i think he wants the same as Cypher), and Cypher (the holder of the rank, there are no leads to say either way if he is the same person in M41) was very much with the imperium too.

just as the last lines of the story tell, the one thing he has lost is what drives both Cypher and Luthor to the actions with the lion.

given this fact (above, i dont want to spoil it for anyone) i think my theory of the green angels being the calibanites may well be right.

[Psychosplodge]

grey angel?

[Cpt Codpiece]

grey angel?

Grey Angel (http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/grey-angel-mp3.html)

[Psychosplodge]

That'd be why I've not seen it, I hate these sh!tty audio dramas I want the feckin books...

[Cpt Codpiece]

the audio dramas are ok, granted this one is short £6.50 for 35 mins. they are good for paint/build sessions where the likes of slayer, S.O.A.D and primus are a little distracting.
but the story is cool, and like i said leads the validation that the green guys may be the calibanites.

[Psychosplodge]

Hopefully they'll compile it into a short story anthology at some point, I do buy the HH audio book cd's but I draw the line at the mp3.

Try some lighter sonata arctica or leaves eyes, or something like apocalytica's metallica covers...

[pgarfunkle]

Hi Psycho, I've seen on amazon that they have dual cds listed for a lot of the short audios. The Blood Angel one is being grouped with the Space Wolves I think and the Grey Angel is being bundled with one called the burden of duty. They are out some point next year for a tenner (£) if you don't want the download.

Back on the original topic and away from what seems to have turned into an ad for amazon lol, I see the fallen as a mix of several options. I think some have probably fallen fully and embraced Chaos after 10,000 years but that there are also some which are loyal to the Imperium while trying to steer clear of the Dark Angels and their successors.

Small spoiler warning for anyone who has not read the Primarchs or further (text below in white).

I have been enjoying the mystery that has been building in the Heresy series about the Lion's true loyalties up until the short story in The Primarchs which makes things pretty clear, unless we get some sort of twist in later books/novellas.

[Psychosplodge]

@Pgarfunkle, cheers, I probably wouldn't have thought to look there, and if they're CD from amazon they'll prob be a better price.

[plawolf]

While I love the idea that Black DA are the real loyalists and Green DA are the heretics, one major problem I see with that theory is continued existence of Fallen (especially Cyther) in the 41st M. Sure, marines live a long time, but not 10,000 years long without going all chaosy.

The warp rift scattered Black DA through space and time, but if you want to go with that explination for why there are still fallen, then that means the fallen would be a very disorganised, disoriented and confused lot when they eventually emerge from the warp to find 10,000 years had passed. While that might make for a very good starting point for a story focused on one or a squad of fallen, it would be hard to make that a believable back story for an army IMHO.

[Psychosplodge]

There's several 10,000 year old marines in the Black library books, at least on DA in suspended animation adrift in space, a salamander in their trilogy,many chaos marines were at the battle of Terra...

[Cpt Codpiece]

in 1Ksons it is said marines are technicaly immortal except from death via battle. so the fact there may still be some marines, be they falled or otherwise it is not a big shock.

dante has served in as captain for 1000 years, calgar has a tenure of close to that and cassius is supposedly 800+ with only the face melting incident to cause him any trouble.

and like i said in the post above Cypher is not necessarily the same marine that was Cypher at the time of the heresy, cypher is a rank just like 'the keeper of the keys' 'master of sanctity' he is the bearer of the DA most secret of secrets as Cypher was pre Lion. though i do personally believe he is the same guy.

the fallen it has been mentioned in the books have an uncanny knack of finding one another, granted a fallen force is very doubtful. but its still can happen, the 40k universe is whatever we and the writers want it to be....... just dont mention squats or the tyranids will be set on you by mr 'anti squad' kirby.

[apahllo]

First off, thank you for this thread!
Second, I'm currently building a fallen army using many codices; vanilla, DA, Chaos. Im doing this for versatility of my models.

Third... Luther v lion.
I'm pretty sure the HH books end with Luther capturing a daemon in zahariel and the lion strait up gives a traitor siege weapons... Both traitors for different reasons.

Luther. Almost let's the lion die, z saves the day. Then he read the book of lupus and tries to tame the chaos on caliban. He "slays" the lion in the fall of caliban but goes insane...

El'jonson. Raised in the tainted part of caliban. "waits for the victor in the heresy". He gives peterabo the siege guns.

The lion shows his dark side when he hands the guns to peterabo. I think he knew he was a traitor and only went to go get them to show Horus who the real war master should be. He is also from the dark part of caliban where the great evil lives, obviously some chaos on the rock. Luther fights eljonson for caliban he uses chaos to do this and wins. Boths traitors in my eyes.

I was going to look into the watchers in more detail but I started to read legion (Dan abnett=amazing author) so my research was postponed. I'm going to take it up again because I believe they hold the key to who is actually the traitor who follows the dark gods.

Anyways, I'm dying for this new codex to come out (luckily ill have fifa13 to distract me) and I hope there is a twist and something huge is revealed and it leads to a new chapter in the luther v lion saga. L