0-1 restrictions

[dannyat2460]

When your playing games of 2000+ points you unlock the ability to take a second primary detachment so my question is if you have a unit that has a 0-1 restriction could you take one in each detachment or is it a 0-1 restriction on the army.

Im personaly leaning towards the latter but what does everyone else think

Just for clarification this question is directed towards the Blood Angel codex and the death company im going to be playing a 2500pt game and im taking a 2nd detachment but im trying to avoid having to take astroth to remove the 0-1 but want to take a squad in each detachment

[Iceman]

When your playing games of 2000+ points you unlock the ability to take a second primary detachment so my question is if you have a unit that has a 0-1 restriction could you take one in each detachment or is it a 0-1 restriction on the army.

Im personaly leaning towards the latter but what does everyone else think

Just for clarification this question is directed towards the Blood Angel codex and the death company im going to be playing a 2500pt game and im taking a 2nd detachment but im trying to avoid having to take astroth to remove the 0-1 but want to take a squad in each detachment


One for each detachment. The way the rules are set up, starting at 2000 points you literally get to have two armies.

[Eberk]

One for each detachment. The way the rules are set up, starting at 2000 points you literally get to have two armies.
The rules don't specify one way or the other. According to the rulebook the Codex rules take precedence but the rulebook doesn't specify if the extra primary detachment is treated as a completely seperate army or just an extension to the original army.

Personally I would say they are the same army so the 0-1 restriction stands (it does say in the rulebook you have 4 HQ, 6 Elite,... choices and not 2 times 2 HQ, 3 Elite,...)

[ElectricPaladin]

The rules don't specify one way or the other. According to the rulebook the Codex rules take precedence but the rulebook doesn't specify if the extra primary detachment is treated as a completely seperate army or just an extension to the original army.

Personally I would say they are the same army so the 0-1 restriction stands (it does say in the rulebook you have 4 HQ, 6 Elite,... choices and not 2 times 2 HQ, 3 Elite,...)

2 times 2 HQ, 3 Elite is 4 HQ, 6 Elite.

[SacredChao]

But the question isn't about Force Organization slots, it's about set restrictions (Such as the current Chaos Marine Greater Daemon) which says that an army may only have 0-1 of them in it. The real question is whether or not the second Primary Detachment functions as a completely new list, or army wide restrictions/bonuses carry over to the other detachment (such as certain units making things troops, or Space Wolf HQ's taking the same saga's and stuff).

Currently, I believe RAW would seem to favor that they are in fact the same army (since there is nothing to say otherwise), so if it says "0-1" under the codex listing, you can still only have a maximum of 1 in your list.

[Chris*ta]

I would lean towards saying you can have 2 Death Companies. The 0-1 limit is meant for units that are rare, not unique, so in a suitably large battle I can see that there could easily be two such units.

The rules on p.110 specifically note that you can't have two of a given unique character in your army, but doesn't discuss 0-1 units.

Really though, the rules don't answer this question. Does someone want to post it on The Great BoLS FAQ Questions Thread?
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?23818-Th-Great-BoLS-FAQ-Questions-Thread&highlight=rules+thread

I'd do it, but don't have the Blood Angels codex.

[JMichael]

I don't see anything that suggests the 2nd Primary Detachment is in any way treated as a seperate army. I say you could only have 1 Death Company/Army (regradless of the # of Primary Detachments).
You can also think of it this way. Does the 2nd Primary Detachement allow you to take 2 Unique Characters or Units? No.

Regardless of the 0-1. The Death Company entry also states (p88 - Army List): You can include only 1 unit of Death Company in your army.

[Iceman]

I don't see anything that suggests the 2nd Primary Detachment is in any way treated as a seperate army. I say you could only have 1 Death Company/Army (regradless of the # of Primary Detachments).
You can also think of it this way. Does the 2nd Primary Detachement allow you to take 2 Unique Characters or Units? No.

Regardless of the 0-1. The Death Company entry also states (p88 - Army List): You can include only 1 unit of Death Company in your army.

After reading JMichael's post I have to amend my original opinion and agree that the Death Company entry is pretty specific so only 1 unit of Death Company.

[Wildcard]

Another angle to look at this is:

Does HQ units that unlock some units as troops, carry that "unlocked status" over to the 2nd FoC?

Meaning:

Dante - 12x Squad of Sanquinary Guard
Draigo - 12x Squads of Paladins (not even the biggest Apocalypse games are enough for this :D )
Crowe - 12x Squads of Purifiers

etc etc..

In my opinion the army consists of two FoCs in this situation, thus making it possible. Also, it still counts one army for those 0-1 options.
Also, do the psychic powers (buffs) and other auras (sanquinary priest FNP) carry to the second FoC?

*Personal speculation*
In my opinion its the same army, for all intents and purposes, that you just use 1x HQ and 2x troops to unlock 4x troop, 3x elite, 3x fast and 3x heavy.. - A large force Tax if you will..
*End of personal speculation*

[uglytater]

I would think that you need to answer one question here, why are you playing. If my brother actually got over 2k with his Blood Angels and asked me if he could take a second Death Company, I would say yes, the point of this is to have fun. If he and I were going to a tourney, and he asked me what I thought, I would say feel free to take 12 units of Sang Guard, but only 1 DC as the rule to me reads that you only get more Force Org slots, not a second Army.

[Nabterayl]

I agree with JMichael. Death Company specifies one unit per army, and I agree that two primary detachments are part of a single army. Consider page 110: "your Warlord can be from either of the primary detachments in your army." If the two primary detachments are both "in" a singular "army," they cannot each also be their own army.*


Another angle to look at this is:

Does HQ units that unlock some units as troops, carry that "unlocked status" over to the 2nd FoC?

Meaning:

Dante - 12x Squad of Sanquinary Guard
Draigo - 12x Squads of Paladins (not even the biggest Apocalypse games are enough for this :D )
Crowe - 12x Squads of Purifiers

etc etc..
Depends on the wording, but in those three cases, yes. Each of those special characters says, "In an army that includes ..." and, since the two primary detachments are each part of the same army, it's enough that the special character is present in only one of the two detachments. I can imagine a situation where a special character said, "In a detachment that includes [e.g.,] Commander Dante ..." but I'm not aware of any such cases yet.


Also, do the psychic powers (buffs) and other auras (sanquinary priest FNP) carry to the second FoC?

Well, depends. Strictly speaking, the FoC includes all detachments in your army, including allied and fortification detachments. A Blood Chalice from one Blood Angels detachment would certainly affect Blood Angels from another detachment, because the rule specifies that it applies to friendly units chosen from Codex: Blood Angels. However, a Blood Angels librarian with Forewarning could not cast it on allied Grey Knights, because Grey Knights and Blood Angels do not consider each other friendly units even when part of the same army. The relevant question will usually be whether units consider each other allies or are from the same codex, though, not whether they're from the same detachment.

* Unless we think that, for rules purposes, an army can be made up of multiple armies. I disagree with that notion, though, on the basis that the rules ever only speak of a player's army, singular - even when talking about multiple detachments. Any "army of armies" concept would, as far as I can see, be made up whole cloth.

[Kaiserdean]

I've always assumed that your "army" is the batch of models that your are playing against your opponent. If you can only have 1 special unit for your army, you can only have one.

I think some of the confusion is coming from the number of units you are allowed to take by Force Organization and the number of limited units you are allowed to take. The expanded Force Organization at 2k+ point games doesn't expand your availability of 0-1 units.

Personally, I think the 0-1 units should be given the "unique" designation, like a named character.

[Mystery.Shadow]

But what about something that's not a named character, but still 0-1 such as a Swarmlord?!

[dannyat2460]

But what about something that's not a named character, but still 0-1 such as a Swarmlord?!

The swarmlord is unique so it has a 0-1 limit in that way

Thanks for all your imput and the reason that im needing to know is for a tournament down nottingham ive emailed the events team and waiting for a definative answer from them but i am leaning toward them only allowing one as it is an army not force chart

[Archon Charybdis]

But what about something that's not a named character, but still 0-1 such as a Swarmlord?!

I'm not sure under what definition THE Swarmlord doesn't constitute a named special character, but as dannyat pointed out, he definitely has the Unique special rule and could only ever be taken once in an army.

[Kaiserdean]

But what about something that's not a named character, but still 0-1 such as a Swarmlord?!

The point of a unit being 0-1 is that they are very rare. Death Company are supposed to be a crack unit of special troops that are better than other units of the same type. Like a Seal Team being a better version of a regular Marine.