Big Hubbub about Njal and Flyers

[Bigred]

Long story short: The winner of the NOVA Open was assisted by a judge ruling that allowed his Njal's "Lord of Tempests" to automatically strike flyers without needing either snapfire to hit, or allowing evade rolls.

Discuss...

[CridiDeal]

I would say that automatic hits are fine, but you can argue about evade rolls.
It says that, after rolling to hit but before armor penetration you roll for evade. IMO you get evade rolls as you just skip the to-hit rolls.

[DrLove42]

For those of us who don't know....what are the exact words on the power?

[CridiDeal]

"At the end of Njal's Shooting phase, a model within 18" is ravaged by a tornado, taking D3 S9 hits. Vehicles are hit on their side armour".

OR

"At the end of Njal's Shooting phase, unengaged enemy units within 12" of Njal take D6 S8 hits with an AP of 5."

[Tacoo]

"At the end of Njal's Shooting phase, a model within 18" is ravaged by a tornado, taking D3 S9 hits. Vehicles are hit on their side armour".

OR

"At the end of Njal's Shooting phase, unengaged enemy units within 12" of Njal take D6 S8 hits with an AP of 5."

Im no rules expert, but i thought that things that auto hit couldnt hit filyers that were zooming?

[AbeSapien]

Codex special rules should overrule rulebook rules so an automatic hit is an automatic hit.
This gives some armies a little bit of defense against flyers without needing allies or to buy the Aegis defense line.

The flyer should still get evade. Just assume that the "to hit" rolls are automatically passed due to the special codex rule. So evade then roll to penetrate.

[SacredChao]

Im no rules expert, but i thought that things that auto hit couldnt hit filyers that were zooming?

In order to shoot at a flyer, you need to snap fire. Snap Fire rules state that weapons that don't use Ballistics skill cannot be snap fired. This applies to psychic powers as well as blasts, templates, etc. I'd have to say that if it's a single model taking it, the Flyer definitely can't be targeted unless Njal has skyfire. The all enemy within 12" is a bit less cut and dry, but currently Nova's and Maelstrom's cannot hit a flyer, so I would assume this can't as well.

[DrLove42]

Codex special rules should overrule rulebook rules so an automatic hit is an automatic hit.
This gives some armies a little bit of defense against flyers without needing allies or to buy the Aegis defense line.

The flyer should still get evade. Just assume that the "to hit" rolls are automatically passed due to the special codex rule. So evade then roll to penetrate.

Agree with part 2, not part 1.

This gives SPACE WOLVES more defence against fliers, no one else. The main argument i've seen is that this is neither a shooting attack or a power. Thereofre shooting attacks that autohit (line drawing) don't benefit from this ruling. Something else to make Space Wolves better...yay

And as for agreeing on part 2, yes they should get to evade. The idea that "it never rolled to hit, evade rolls are made after to hit, therefore it doesn't get any" is stupid

I'm of the opinion that the rule book is clear here. Anything that autohits cannot target aircraft

[CridiDeal]

In order to shoot at a flyer, you need to snap fire. Snap Fire rules state that weapons that don't use Ballistics skill cannot be snap fired. This applies to psychic powers as well as blasts, templates, etc. I'd have to say that if it's a single model taking it, the Flyer definitely can't be targeted unless Njal has skyfire. The all enemy within 12" is a bit less cut and dry, but currently Nova's and Maelstrom's cannot hit a flyer, so I would assume this can't as well.

It is not a shooting OR psychic shooting attack, so your argument is invalid.

[Rapture]

There is nothing to discuss. The ruling is objectively correct from a clear and simple RAW perspective. This is nothing more than a thinly-veiled opportunity for people to loosely adapt this situation to the per-existing bias regarding fliers and the rule for firing at them. No one stands to benefit from re-airing a pointless argument.

[MVBrandt]

As in the main thread, ruling is based on following:

Just for clarity, we did not rule on Njal's powers in the NOVA FAQ.

We ruled them on the spot when asked in the following way:

Appropriate Rules of Reference:

Codex: Space Wolves, Page 53, Lord of Tempests Game Effect Table:

6 - Vengeful Tornado:
At the end of Njal's Shooting Phase, a model within 18" is ravaged by a tornado, taking D3 S9 hits. Vehicles are hit on their side armour.

7+ - Chain Lightning:
At the end of Njal's Shooting phase, unengaged enemy units within 12" of Njal take D6 S8 hits with an AP of 5.

First component, neither of these are Shooting Attacks. They also do not Roll to Hit. They roll to determine whether they occur at all at the beginning of the turn, and they roll to determine how many hits occur. They do not Roll to Hit.

Next, the rules for Evade, on Page 81 of the large rulebook:

If a Zooming Flyer comes under fire, the pilot can throw his craft into a series of evasive manoeuvres in an attempt to avoid taking damage. After the enemy has rolled To Hit against one of your Flyers, but before armour penetration rolls are made, you can choose to Evade until the end of your next turn. An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots.

Note that Njal's powers in question are not shooting attacks, and do not roll to hit. The choice to Evade can ONLY be made after the enemy has rolled To Hit.

The NOVA DID NOT RULE that there were no COVER saves permitted against Vengeful Tornado or Chain Lightning. In fact, we ruled you COULD take cover saves. We simply ruled that the choice to Evade could not be made against either of them, because they were not shooting attacks and did not roll to hit. In the case of affected units in area terrain, units that had already evaded, units with the Jink rule, units with KFF effects, smoke, etc., cover saves all applied, because the cover save was already in effect when the hits were suffered.

Just so all know ... we did not rule "NO COVER SAVES," and we did not consider these at all similar to Blood Lance, etc., because ... well, they aren't at all similar. A non-shooting-attack special effect is not at all the same as a shooting attack or psychic shooting attack.

[evilamericorp]

I will quote all the relevant rules here:

Flyer shooting restrictions:
"Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots..."

Snap shots rule:
"If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purposes of those shots... It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill... cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot."

Lord of Tempests:
"At the beginning of Njal's turn, roll a D3 and add the turn number to the result... Refer to the table opposite for the tempest's effects that game turn."

Vengeful Tornado FAQ Amendment wording(6 on the chart):
“At the end of Njal’s Shooting phase, a single enemy model of your choice within 18” is ravaged by a tornado, taking D3 S9 hits. Vehicles are hit on their side armour”

Chain Lightning (7+ on the chart):
"At the end of Njal's shooting phase, unengaged enemy units within 12" of Njal take D6 S8 hits with an AP of 5."

Vengeful Tornado FAQ ruling:
"Q. Is a vehicle hit by Vengeful Tornado result literally hit on its side armor, and therefore does it get the Obscured cover save if Njal cannot see one of its sides?
A. No - Vengeful Tornado is not a shooting attack and therefore allows no cover save..."

The restriction on shooting at fliers is just that, a restriction on shooting, which applies to shooting attacks with weapons, witchfires, and psychic shooting attacks in the shooting phase. Lord of Tempests is none of those things. It is a special ability that happens to go off during the shooting phase, and Vengeful Tornado has been specifically ruled in the FAQ to not be a shooting attack.

If you read all of the relevant rules, including the FAQ, it is clear that Njal's Lord of Tempests ability can affect flyers.



The NOVA DID NOT RULE that there were no COVER saves permitted against Vengeful Tornado or Chain Lightning. In fact, we ruled you COULD take cover saves. We simply ruled that the choice to Evade could not be made against either of them, because they were not shooting attacks and did not roll to hit. In the case of affected units in area terrain, units that had already evaded, units with the Jink rule, units with KFF effects, smoke, etc., cover saves all applied, because the cover save was already in effect when the hits were suffered.

Just so all know ... we did not rule "NO COVER SAVES," and we did not consider these at all similar to Blood Lance, etc., because ... well, they aren't at all similar. A non-shooting-attack special effect is not at all the same as a shooting attack or psychic shooting attack.

You should have read the FAQ when you made the ruling, this issue is directly addressed. Your ruling was incorrect for Vengeful Tornado.

[MVBrandt]

"You should have read the FAQ when you made the ruling, this issue is directly addressed. Your ruling was incorrect for Vengeful Tornado."

You are correct. We were mistaken to state that if the Flyer had ALREADY evaded, it would get a cover save from Vengeful Tornado. Fortunately it did not come into play.

[Caitsidhe]

What seems to be overlooked in all the hoopla is that the entire discussion is irrelevant and moot. The Tournament Organizer made a call on the scene. That is the call and it is right for the event, period. It doesn't matter what we think about the ruling. It doesn't matter what may or may not appear in errata at a later date. Tournament Organizers have enough to worry about already without having to listen to every yahoo heckling from the cheap seats. I consider the specific rule in question utterly unimportant next to the far more important concept of accepting the ruling of a referee gracefully and politely.

[MVBrandt]

Fortunately, every single person actually involved with the ruling did just that, Caitsidhe. There was no drama at event over it. In fact, I was a little surprised to see it come up. The ruling didn't even impact the result of the game, in even the slightest of ways.

[Caitsidhe]

Fortunately, every single person actually involved with the ruling did just that, Caitsidhe. There was no drama at event over it. In fact, I was a little surprised to see it come up. The ruling didn't even impact the result of the game, in even the slightest of ways.

That makes it even more silly to see an article and thread devoted to it.

[evilamericorp]

That makes it even more silly to see an article and thread devoted to it.

It's always good to get a consensus on the correct ruling after issues like this so questions don't come up in the future.

[Rapture]

That makes it even more silly to see an article and thread devoted to it.
Lightning rod articles/threads generate clicks. Even if they are ridiculous.

[DarkLink]

That makes it even more silly to see an article and thread devoted to it.

So the only purpose of threads and articles is to gossip about drama at tournaments? Not to discuss rule clarifications?

[bfmusashi]

So the only purpose of threads and articles is to gossip about drama at tournaments? Not to discuss rule clarifications?

I thought it was so Tyn could remind everyone to read the rules and not make stuff up. :rolleyes:

[DrLove42]

BOOOM

Officially FAQ'd. Can't hit the flier

[saintgabriel]

Some folks just can't let go.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/475091.page#4745370

[incenerate101]

BOOOM

Officially FAQ'd. Can't hit the flier

Novas Beams and Maelstroms are all a type of attack. Njals table are all IN GAME EFFECTS not attacks.They function the same way as mysterious terrain. Therefore do not fall into the recent FAQ. Njals in game effects still can hit fliers.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

Does Njal's ability roll to hit, if not it cannot hit a flyer. Here is the wording.

Q: How do , and – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming and ? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.


Note the "or doesn't roll to hit section" so if he doesn't require a roll to hit, then it cannot hit a zooming flyer.

[incenerate101]

It also states ANY ATTACKS. Njals table are ALL in game effects as stated in his codex entry. Therefore they may still hit fliers.

NOTE: None of the effects are considered Novas or Maelstroms. Page 69 of the Rule Book States

Maelstroms target and hit all units friendly and non in the max range of the power similar to blessings or Maledictions.

Novas target and hit all enemy units within the powers maximum range that the character has LoS to and also comes with a shooting profile.

Njals powers must have line of sight so they cannot be a Maelstrom and they also do not have a shooting profile therefore they cannot be Novas.

[Nabterayl]

I don't think either Emerald Rose Widow or Incenerate are reading this right. Let me give an example:

Only Marneus Calgar can beat Chuck Norris. Therefore, Commander Dante cannot beat Chuck Norris.
If the above is true, can Leman Russ beat Chuck Norris?

The answer is no. How do you know? Because only Marneus Calgar can beat Chuck Norris. To say that Leman Russ is not Commander Dante not only misses the point, it misunderstands the meaning of "therefore." Therefore signifies an example. It does not signify an exhaustive list.

It seems to me that the relevant part of the FAQ has nothing to do with attacks. Those listed are all examples, as signified by the word "therefore." The relevant sentence is, "Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures."* We know that Skyfire and Vector Strike are exceptions to that rule, because they say so ("A model with this special rule ... fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures ..." and "This unit may even be an enemy Flyer," respectively). Lord of Tempests does not benefit from Skyfire or Vector Strike, and it doesn't make Snap Shots. So on what basis would we say that it is an exception to "Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures?"

The only basis I can think of is page 7: "On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence." We all know and hate the people who trot out this rule every time they don't understand something, so in all seriousness: is there an actual conflict here?

At first blush one might say yes, because the BRB (through the FAQ) is stating that Lord of Tempests doesn't affect ZFAGFMCs, while the codex says that it does. On a deeper look, though, I don't think that's actually correct, and here's why.

The argument that Lord of Tempests hits flyers goes like this:
The BRB says that (absent Skyfire or Vector Strike), only Snap Shots can hit ZFAGFMCs.
Lord of Tempests is not Skyfire, Vector Strike, or a Snap Shot. Nevertheless, it says it automatically hits units, and ZFAGFMCs are units.
Conflict (1 and 2).
The BRB says that in case of conflict, codex takes precedence.
Therefore Lord of Tempests hits ZFAGFMCs because they are units.
Now let me ask a seemingly unrelated question: does Thunderclap hit ZFAGFMCs?

For those who don't have a Space Wolves codex handy, Thunderclap states, in relevant part, "A Rune Priest may use Thunderclap as a psychic shooting attack. Place the large blast marker so that it is touching the Rune Priest. Any enemy model touched by the marker takes a S3 hit with an AP of 5" (emphasis mine).

I think most of us would say, in light of the FAQ, that the answer is no. But here is the argument that the answer is yes:


The BRB says that (absent Skyfire or Vector Strike), only Snap Shots can hit ZFAGFMCs.
Thunderclap is not Skyfire, Vector Strike, or a Snap Shot. Nevertheless, it says it automatically hits models, and ZFAGFMCs are models.
Conflict (1 and 2).
The BRB says that in case of conflict, codex takes precedence.
Therefore Thunderclap hits ZFAGFMCs because they are models.
Except for the fact that Thunderclap specifies models and Lord of Tempests specifies units, it's the exact same argument. Is the Thunderclap argument not obviously a misapplication of page 7? If so, is the Lord of Tempests argument not equally a misapplication?

And if Lord of Tempests cannot actually play the codex > BRB card (and I think it can't, any more than Thunderclap can) ... then there is no other basis on which Lord of Tempests can claim to hit ZFAGFMCs, because - notwithstanding any examples that happen to talk about weapons or attacks - "only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures."

* I'll continue to say "Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures because that's what the FAQ says, but I assume we all agree that GW meant Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures?

[Emerald Rose Widow]

I would say that argument is well thought out and pretty much hits the nail on the head.

[david5th]

Don't know if this helps but new SW FAQ pg4:

Q: Does the Tempest’s Wrath psychic power affect Flyers? (p37)
A: No.