Screamers of Tzeentch Toughness Query

[Learn2Eel]

Hi guys, I have a question - probably a silly one - about Screamers of Tzeentch.
I have the Rulebook and their FAQ entry handy, so I can check any relevant sections quickly.
My questions centres around the Toughness value of Screamers. In their profile on Page 4 of the Chaos Daemons White Dwarf Official Update, it is listed as 4. In their unit type, they are listed as 'Jetbikes'.
In the rulebook, page 45, it says that;
"Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from the protection offered by their bike, which increases their Toughness characteristic by 1. If the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model's standard wargear, this bonus is already included on its profile."

This seems easy. It says riders beneift from it, not a Jetbike itself. However, for example, a Chaos Space Marine Biker's unit type is 'Bike' - page 99 of the Chaos Space Marines codex. A Screamers' is 'Jetbike', so the rider point seems to be moot.
This gets iffy in regards to the Chaos Daemons army special rule - they are all Eternal Warriors. Plaguebearers, for example, are T5 - however this is kind of irrelevant as the +1 Toughness bonus for the Mark of Nurgle only applies to Daemon Princes.
My usual inclination would be that Screamers are simply T4, full stop. But the 'Jetbike' is not part of its wargear - it is only listed as its unit type. Contrast this against Chaos Bikers, who have their 'Bike' listed in their Wargear. The rulebook states that the +1 Toughness boost is already included if the unit has the Bike/Jetbike in its wargear standard. Screamers don't.
A usual argument that would apply would be that Tzeentch Daemons are Toughness 3 usually. However, Flamers of Tzeentch, being Toughness 4, counter this argument.

So, what do you think? With the codex having army-wide Eternal Warrior, it would make sense that the usual bracketed Toughness from 5th Edition isn't shown and thus the Screamers already have the bonus included. But seeing as the Rulebook states that Jetbikes already have the bonus included only if it is part of the models' standard wargear - which it is not here as it is only part of the Screamers unit type - there might actually be a case for them to be Toughness 5. Again, I think Toughness 5 2 Wound Eternal Warrior Jetbikes that can get +4 cover saves whilst doing slashing attacks (Turbo-Boost) is over the top and seems a bit odd. I think it might just be an oversight, and everyone I know seems to play them as T4. But RAW seems to indicate that they are not T4, whilst RAI is clearly opposed.
If they are actually T5......*shudder*

Just a friendly inquiry, until someone comes up with a good answer indicating otherwise I'll play them as Toughness 4 - that's what my instincts tell me. But again, RAW seems to denote the opposite.
Cheers!

[Nabterayl]

I agree that they should be played as Toughness 4. If you want an alternate RAW reading to back that up, try this:

I don't think the rider point is moot. Page 45 of the BRB makes it clear that a bike's number of "riders" is determined by the model itself - there's no other way to tell that an attack bike has two riders, though page 45 makes it clear that, rules-wise, an attack bike has two riders. Looking at the screamer model, I see no rider. As a result, there's no call to increase the model's Toughness per page 45.

It's true that CSM bikers (and many other types of bikers) have the unit type "bike," but it sounds like you're assuming that they are bikers because they have bikes as wargear. That is not true - or at least, it isn't true unless the codex says so. The only way the rulebook permits a model to be a "bike" is for it to have the unit type bike. As far as the rulebook is concerned, the only implication of having a bike as wargear is to not increase the model's listed Toughness by 1.

[Learn2Eel]

Thank you for your response.

The problem I have with your point regarding the number of 'riders' is that what you are referring to is only for the purposes of shooting, page 45 of the rulebook;
"SHOOTING
Each Bike or Jetbike in a unit can fire with one weapon for each rider on the Bike."

The number of riders is not referred to for any other purpose, and it doesn't say that you look at the model to work out how many riders it has; it is not explicitly stated.
If that was the case, would you say that - if they had a ranged weapon - Screamers couldn't then shoot because they have no 'rider'?
And even then, how do you define what is and isn't a rider in regards to a Screamer? Can't a case be made that it is itself the 'rider'? And again, the 'rider' part is only worked out for Shooting purposes; it says in the rulebook, page 45;
"If the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model's wargear".
After the first instance of rider in that section, it is later referred to as model. In that case, how do you attribute that to a Screamer?
I'm not assuming CSM Bikers are "bikes" because they have bikes as wargear. They are "bikes" because their unit type is "Bike". But the +1 Toughness bonus is already included in the profile only if it is listed under wargear, which is where Screamers have a problem.

This would be so much easier to answer if Screamers weren't the only unit in the game (that I can think of) that is a jetbike without a readily perceivable rider or entry in their wargear. Obviously a Screamer has no rider, but then how can it be a Jetbike if it has no rider when it is either referred to as 'the rider' and 'the jetbike' collectively or simply called 'jetbike'?
Thanks again, your argument is strong - the real catching point is how you take the 'rider' part. As a Jetbike is always referred to as having a rider, wouldn't the Screamer itself then count as the 'rider'? As the 'rider' is later referred to as the 'model' isn't that also an indication that the Screamer itself gets the bonus? And as the number of riders is only worked out for shooting purposes, is it logical to assume that any model with the unit type 'Jetbike' would get all of the benefits - including the Toughness bonus - for being a Jetbike?

Another sticking point is that +1 Toughness rule, where it says (page 45);
"If the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model's standard wargear".
This is obviously for the purposes of a model purchasing a Bike/Jetbike as wargear. But then, how does that apply to Screamers? The implication of that rule is that the Jetbike rules are applied if the model has it in their wargear - conflicting with the earlier point, I know. But still, it is there. Considering every other Bike/Jetbike unit in the game has their Bike/Jetbike listed as part of their Wargear (either as part of their standard Wargear or as a purchase) - again, where does that leave Screamers?
If what you say is true - that a unit is a 'Jetbike' because of its Unit Type and not its wargear - which I agree with - then wouldn't that still mean the Screamer benefits as it doesn't have the 'Jetbike' in its wargear? Again, it goes straight back to the 'rider' debate, but given the 'rider' rules, I would still say the Screamer could benefit.

I wish they'd FAQ this. I'm mostly just looking for counter-arguments that I can pull out of the hat. I kind of want to exercise this out so we can have a definitive answer. Screamers are already insane - if they were T5, they would be unfair.

[Nabterayl]

No problem; I'm always up for exercising things out.


But the +1 Toughness bonus is already included in the profile only if it is listed under wargear, which is where Screamers have a problem.
That doesn't follow from page 45. If I told you that the rules for Rhinos were included in the Space Wolves codex, it would not follow that the rules for Rhinos were not included in the Space Marine codex. "If A, B" does not imply "if not A, not B." The form of statement is the same here, isn't it? The word "only" does not appear on page 45.

If we can refine your question some, I think you are asking this: if a unit does not have a bike or warbike as part of its standard wargear, how do we know if the bonus has already been included on its profile? I submit that we are only authorized to increase Toughness if a bike or jetbike has a rider, which a screamer (or a scarab, etc.) does not.


If that was the case, would you say that - if they had a ranged weapon - Screamers couldn't then shoot because they have no 'rider'?
No, I wouldn't. "Each Bike or Jetbike in a unit can fire with one weapon for each rider on the Bike" does not mean that a Bike or Jetbike can only fire if it has a rider. Page 13 states, "Any model that is found to be in range of at least one visible enemy model in the target unit can fire." While this general rule is modified by various other rules, it's the general rule for shooting (and the rule that infantry, for example, relies upon to be authorized to fire at all).

Page 13 authorizes a screamer - or a Chaos marine biker - to fire one weapon (modified by page 51's statement that "unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one Shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot"). Page 45 authorizes a screamer or CSM biker to fire one weapon per rider. A CSM biker is thus twice authorized to fire one weapon. A screamer is only once authorized to fire one weapon - but once is all we need. (And of course, pages 13+51 authorize an attack bike to fire only one weapon, whereas page 45 authorizes an attack bike to fire two weapons, which is why attack bikes can fire two weapons.)

It would be different if page 45 said, "Each Bike or Jetbike in a unit can only fire with one weapon for each rider on the Bike," but that isn't what page 45 says, and "only" is not the sort of modifier that we can just go reading into statements whenever we like.