Kharn Question

[Demonus]

Kharn + Berserkers charge a Daemon Prince. DP and Kharn fight in challenge. DP doesnt kill Kharn off the bat so Kharn rolls his attacks, rolling 2 1s. Are the berserkers hit by his "Betrayer" rule?

I could see it argued either way, as Kharn and DP are only ones involved in challenge, however technically the other berserkers are involved as they can give Kharn rerolls with their cheering on.

Thoughts?

[Nabterayl]

I think there's a strong case to be made that the other berzerkers are hit by Betrayal. Betrayal says that on a roll of 1 Kharn hits his "own side," and further clarifies that if the hits cannot be resolved against "a random friendly unit engaged in the same combat" then they have no effect. So the question we must answer is whether the berzerkers are "engaged in the same combat" as Kharn when he is fighting a challenge.

I think the challenge rules provide strong evidence that a challenge is not a separate combat, even though it obviously introduces some new rules. For instance, page 64 of the BRB states that "only one challenge can be issued per close combat," and page 65 reiterates, "further challenges cannot be issued in a combat until the existing challenge has been resolved," statements that only make sense (and only alter the players' behavior) if we conceive of challenges as being part of the close combat in which they were issued. If challenges, once accepted, truly became a separate close combat, then there would be nothing stopping us from issuing multiple challenges per "parent" close combat. We could say, "Who, Kharn? He's fighting a challenge, remember? That's a separate combat, so no challenge is ongoing in this combat. The skull champion in his unit can totally issue another challenge!" Words like "existing" clearly preclude that interpretation.

You've already mentioned the fact that the berzerkers can confer rerolls for Kharn, but we can put your intuition on more explicit textual footing as well. Remember that page 65 says that only units "locked in combat with a single model who is fighting in a challenge" can offer rerolls. If challenger and challengee were always their own distinct combat, this would be impossible. In order for the Moral Support rule to ever be able to come into play, a challenge must not be its own separate combat - and indeed, the wording of Moral Support clearly assumes it is not.

Consider also the fact that "Unsaved Wounds caused in a challenge count towards the assault result, alongside any unsaved Wounds caused by the rest of the characters' units" (p 65). If challenges were their own separate combat, that statement would be nonsensical - Kharn and the daemon prince could not have any other unsaved Wounds for their unsaved Wounds to count alongside, because they would be the only two models involved in their combat. Since page 65 lumps Kharn's wounds alongside those of his berzerkers as counting towards "the" assault result, we must conclude that Kharn and the berzerkers are in the same close combat. Because they are in the same close combat as Kharn, the berzerkers are therefore legal targets for Betrayal.

[Wildcard]

I would love to be able to find this on my book - if only i had it with me right now..

But, to my understanding, no blows can ever be hit come in or out of the challenge.

- Cleansing Flame
- Zone of Banishment
- Nurgles rot

Are kind of skills / attacks that cause headache with this rule tho..

Ill return to the matter as soon as i get my hands on my book again! :)

Edit, had a quick chance to look at the challenge rules:

- Any wounds caused in "outside of duel" cannot be allocated to the dueling models
- Dueling models can only deal blows to each other

Since Kharns betrayal hits are from his axe, thus blows as in cc hits, i would say that they cannot be allocated to the models outside of the duel. However, area of effect, of combat wide buffs and / or debuffs triggered by duelists can affect the rest of the models in close combat.


Since page 65 lumps Kharn's wounds alongside those of his berzerkers as counting towards "the" assault result, we must conclude that Kharn and the berzerkers are in the same close combat. Because they are in the same close combat as Kharn, the berzerkers are therefore legal targets for Betrayal.

However it was stated that no blows go in or come out of the duel, and no wounds to be allocated in either direction caused by other force (meaning duelists vs the rest of the 'unit(s)'

[DarkLink]

It's not very clear. There's a general question of can wounds overflow from a challenge. It never directly says that you can't allocate wounds to models outside a challenge. It might, kinda, sorta say something like that when it says "blows may only be struck against", but no one is really quite sure exactly what that means because allocation is different from blows struck.

The easiest solution, though, is to keep all wounds within the challenge, and that's the general consensus. I would go with that as your answer.

[Kevlarshark]

I thought codex trumped rule book... Kharn hits his mates on a roll of 1.

The rule book does not say this cannot be done, it says people outside the challenge cannot strike in... and "that any blow allocated to the challenger or the challengee must be delivered by one another." (p64)
Since these attacks are not allocated to either I would say they go on Kharns guys...Starting with the closest to him.

This sounds suspiciously like you are trying to prevent Kharn from attacking his own guys by issuing a challenge, thus gain an advantage, we all know how these kinds of things go in an FAQ.

[Wildcard]

Hmm, now that we are at it, what are your opinions on the following on occasions that the one in the model in a challenge triggers / channels / gives etc the effect in question:

- Cleansing Flame

- Hammer of Wrath hit

- ability that lets squad and model itself re-roll, say hits, on a charge

- Any other buff you might think of?

- Any other debuff you might think of

- Either of two before, that has a range of D6" or flat 6" for example (Zone of Banishment and Nurgles Rot come into mind)

Who are those hits allocated to, and can they 'escape' the duel..

Does rulebook give a wording in either direction?

[Kevlarshark]

@ Wildcard, Firstly I think this is about Kharn and his specific special rule ("The Betrayer"), which no other character possesses, I don't think we can draw a precedent from any of your other questions, as they do not interact with this special rule...and to debate all of those would de-rail this thread.

The Big rule book give us the basic frame work for the rules and how the most common ones interact, but in the case of a unique special rule Codex always trumps.

So on a 1 Kharn has to hit friendly models involved in the same assault...(even if they are only Moral support) I just cannot see any other fair, and reasonable option...

[Renegade]

@ Wildcard, Firstly I think this is about Kharn and his specific special rule ("The Betrayer"), which no other character possesses, I don't think we can draw a precedent from any of your other questions, as they do not interact with this special rule...and to debate all of those would de-rail this thread.

The Big rule book give us the basic frame work for the rules and how the most common ones interact, but in the case of a unique special rule Codex always trumps.

So on a 1 Kharn has to hit friendly models involved in the same assault...(even if they are only Moral support) I just cannot see any other fair, and reasonable option...

I agree with this from a purely RAW basis.

[Nabterayl]

I (obviously) agree. I hate it when people wave the codex > BRB banner like it's some kind of rule, but I don't see how this isn't a case of the specific overriding the general.

[DarkLink]

Well, it's technically a rule. It does specify that, if there is a conflict, codex trumps rulebook. It's in there somewhere. The thing most people miss, though, is that it only applies if there is a conflict. Most of the times people try and use Codex>Rulebook erroneously, there isn't actually a conflict between the rules and thus it doesn't apply.

[Learn2Eel]

I agree that Kharn still hits friendly models even if he is locked in a challenge. His special rule states that he hits friendly models in the same assault/combat. A challenge doesn't take you out of that combat, it just means other models - aside from the challenger - cannot strike you and you cannot strike them.

[Nabterayl]

Well, it's technically a rule. It does specify that, if there is a conflict, codex trumps rulebook. It's in there somewhere.

Oh hey, you're right (bottom of page 7)! I don't remember prior BRBs actually specifying that. Does you see something else at play here, DarkLink? In my view it's clear that the CSM codex calls for Betrayal to hit people outside of a challenge. Against that, we have the rather ambiguous challenge rules, which either (i) don't conflict with the codex, or (ii) do conflict with the codex. It seems to me that if (i), the codex analysis should stand, and if (ii), the codex analysis should take precedence. How do you see it?

[DarkLink]

I actually agree now that you can kill friendly models. It's a good point that Betrayal conflicts with the normal seeming inability to allocate wounds outside of a challenge, and thus trumps challenge rules. I was just speaking generally, that people tend to apply codex>BRB in situations where there isn't actually a conflict.

[Nabterayl]

Oh, I see. Yes, yes they do =P