Ignoring Invulnerable Armour Saves and Eternal Warrior

[Punisher]

On page 17 of the rule book it states that an invulnerable armour save "may always be taken whenever the model suffers a wound - the armour piercing value of attacking weapons has no effect". It goes on to say that even if a wound ignores all armour saves, an invulnerable save can still be taken.

Now for necrons, I am not sure about other races, there are a number of weapons that don't state that they ignore armour saves but rather that no saves of any kind are allowed. The weapons that I am talking about are the portal of exile, tesseract cube, Transdimensional Beamer and Times arrow.

So do these weapons ignore the invulnerable armour saves?

Also worth noting is that the a Warsycthe states that "Armour Saves are not permitted against this weapon" so with this distinction it is my belief the the aforementioned weapons are designed to ignore invulnerable armour saves. What do you guys think?

Also since these weapons remove the models as casualties rather than causing instant death do they still work against models with Eternal Warrior? Even though they aren't causing "Instant Death" they are still achieving the same effect.

Thanks in advance for your answers and thoughts.

[Archon Charybdis]

There's no such thing as an "invulnerable armour save"; there are armor saves, cover saves, and invulnerable saves. An attack that ignores all armor saves would still allow an invuln save (and cover if applicable, but most ignores armor saves weapons I can think of are CC rather than shooting weapons). Attacks that ignore ALL saves do exactly what they say on the tin. It's worth noting though that Feel No Pain is not technically a save, and can still be taken against wounds caused from an attack that ignores all saves.

[Punisher]

There's no such thing as an "invulnerable armour save"; there are armor saves, cover saves, and invulnerable saves. An attack that ignores all armor saves would still allow an invuln save (and cover if applicable, but most ignores armor saves weapons I can think of are CC rather than shooting weapons). Attacks that ignore ALL saves do exactly what they say on the tin. It's worth noting though that Feel No Pain is not technically a save, and can still be taken against wounds caused from an attack that ignores all saves.

Thanks that helps a lot, but and I hadn't thought of this until you brought up feel no pain, feel no pain ignores wounds and none of these weapons inflict wounds they just require a strength test, wound test, or initiative test and remove the model as a casualty if they fail. So there is no wound for feel no pain to ignore.

Also since Look out sir also passes on a unsaved wound/wound to another model I feel these weapons would ignore this rule as well since they aren't causing wounds just removing models as casualties.

[Archon Charybdis]

Thanks that helps a lot, but and I hadn't thought of this until you brought up feel no pain, feel no pain ignores wounds and none of these weapons inflict wounds they just require a strength test, wound test, or initiative test and remove the model as a casualty if they fail. So there is no wound for feel no pain to ignore.

Exactly so, but in the case of Perils in the Warp or some hypothetical weapon that inflicted wounds and ignored all saves would still allow FNP to be taken.

[Punisher]

Exactly so, but in the case of Perils in the Warp or some hypothetical weapon that inflicted wounds and ignored all saves would still allow FNP to be taken.

Yep this is awesome, so deepstriking wraiths with transdimensional beamers just became the bane of all death star's existances.

[Doktor Porkov]

"Also worth noting is that the a Warsycthe states that "Armour Saves are not permitted against this weapon" so with this distinction it is my belief the the aforementioned weapons are designed to ignore invulnerable armour saves. What do you guys think?" - The Necron Warscythe used to not allow any save of any kind in the 2002 codex. In the 2011 codex, they changed it, removed the 'no saves of any kind' bit and gave it an extra 2 points of strength. As for the "Armour Saves are not permitted against this weapon", I suppose that was to make a distinction between it and power weapons, saying 'This is not a power weapon, but you're not getting your normal armour save against it'. The 6th edition rulebook showed us the reason for this distinction and the Necron FAQ assigned the Warscythe to be AP1.

"Also since these weapons remove the models as casualties rather than causing instant death do they still work against models with Eternal Warrior? Even though they aren't causing "Instant Death" they are still achieving the same effect." - This is a mechanism that is used to take models out of existence, against which Eternal Warrior won't work, as it doesn't cause Instant Death. (Didn't Magic: The Gathering have different levels of killing something such as destroy, bury (destroy but not allow regenerate) and exile/ remove from the game. Maybe that's what that is.

[Punisher]

"Also since these weapons remove the models as casualties rather than causing instant death do they still work against models with Eternal Warrior? Even though they aren't causing "Instant Death" they are still achieving the same effect." - This is a mechanism that is used to take models out of existence, against which Eternal Warrior won't work, as it doesn't cause Instant Death. (Didn't Magic: The Gathering have different levels of killing something such as destroy, bury (destroy but not allow regenerate) and exile/ remove from the game. Maybe that's what that is.

Instant death requires a wound to be inflicted and the strength to be double the toughness or for the weapon to have the special rule "Instant Death" which causes wounds to automatically cause Instant Death regardless of toughness. These weapons aren't inflicting any wounds and don't have the special rule Instant Death, they are simple forcing a character test that when failed the opponent is removed as a casualty. The Rules of Eternal Warrior specifically state that the model with that rule is immune to the effects of Instant Death, but this isn't instant death.