should they update the Eye of terror codex ?

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Just curious what the general views on this are. I keep seeing people complaining about their armies (lost and the damned, 13th company) being invalidated. Personally I dont play either of these armies so have no idea about them being invalidated or not, so im curious to hear peoples views on this subject..

[Sitnam]

I feel that Chaos should be given a third codex to represent the rogue Imperial Guard, Dark Mechanicus, and things of that nature. But I doubt GW ever would, so the only thing for EoT players can do is play homebrew.

I also feel the 13th company shoulda been in current SW codex atleast in some form.

[Aldramelech]

Although it pains me to say it, I feel sorry for GW sometimes. They cant please all of the people all of the time.

Having said that could they officially endorse certain well thought out "Fan" Codex's? Theres no money in it for them, so the question is: Are GW just a business or do they have a responsibility to gaming in general?

Does being the worlds most successful games company come with an obligation to the gamers?

I don't know........

[Herald of Nurgle]

While the idea of updating the Eye of Terror is an awesome one, one must realise the amount of armies which must be updated.
If Lost and the Damned are updated, would Kroot Mercenaries want updating? If Kroot want an update, shouldn't Tau be done alongside them? Maybe we could update Ulthwe Strike Force... oh wait, Dark Eldar and Eldar are screaming for one as well now, right? 13th Company can technically be done in small dribs and drabs now, right? Well, shouldn't Blood Angels perhaps get some first? How about Dark Angels, Black Templars, Soul Drinkers, and (come to think of it) Ultrasmurfs? How about that new chapter we've made up - y'know, the Green Marines? Oh, wait, they're Chaos Space Marines right? We forgot the legions as well, fools! I guess that means we've got World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Night Lords, Black Legion, and Iron Warriors as well. Maybe we WILL bring back another one of those small lists from 2nd or 3rd edition... crap, how about Armageddon? Speed Freeks and Savage Orks would do fine, right? Then lets add Squats and some Forgotten Fleets rules to give some more flavour. Forge World feels left out, say they want Elysians, Tallarn, Death Korps as their own lists? Yowch, guess we'll let'em, right?

DON'T OPEN THE BOX!

[trjames]

While the idea of updating the Eye of Terror is an awesome one, one must realise the amount of armies which must be updated.
If Lost and the Damned are updated, would Kroot Mercenaries want updating? If Kroot want an update, shouldn't Tau be done alongside them? Maybe we could update Ulthwe Strike Force... oh wait, Dark Eldar and Eldar are screaming for one as well now, right? 13th Company can technically be done in small dribs and drabs now, right? Well, shouldn't Blood Angels perhaps get some first? How about Dark Angels, Black Templars, Soul Drinkers, and (come to think of it) Ultrasmurfs? How about that new chapter we've made up - y'know, the Green Marines? Oh, wait, they're Chaos Space Marines right? We forgot the legions as well, fools! I guess that means we've got World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Night Lords, Black Legion, and Iron Warriors as well. Maybe we WILL bring back another one of those small lists from 2nd or 3rd edition... crap, how about Armageddon? Speed Freeks and Savage Orks would do fine, right? Then lets add Squats and some Forgotten Fleets rules to give some more flavour. Forge World feels left out, say they want Elysians, Tallarn, Death Korps as their own lists? Yowch, guess we'll let'em, right?

DON'T OPEN THE BOX!

I think you hit the nail on the head here. To be honest, I used to get really annoyed when people brought non-standard stuff to the table: "Oh, yeah, the rules are in White Dwarf #94 - what do you mean you don't have that." The few tournaments I ran were always codex only, no allies or inducted forces, no named characters, and that's still the way I like to play.

[warpcrafter]

I think you hit the nail on the head here. To be honest, I used to get really annoyed when people brought non-standard stuff to the table: "Oh, yeah, the rules are in White Dwarf #94 - what do you mean you don't have that." The few tournaments I ran were always codex only, no allies or inducted forces, no named characters, and that's still the way I like to play.

You obviously don't have 200 little plastic men (Many of which were conversions or kitbashes) gathering dust because their rules are no longer acceptable to the stuffy tournament-or-nothing crowd. The age of house rules is dead. Thanks GW for killing the hobby you had a large part in creating. It's like getting a whole town hooked on a drug and then putting rat poison in it. (I'm not a little bitter, am I?):mad:

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

You obviously don't have 200 little plastic men (Many of which were conversions or kitbashes) gathering dust because their rules are no longer acceptable to the stuffy tournament-or-nothing crowd. The age of house rules is dead. Thanks GW for killing the hobby you had a large part in creating. It's like getting a whole town hooked on a drug and then putting rat poison in it. (I'm not a little bitter, am I?):mad:

What army is that ? isnt there any other list/rules you could use to "counts as" ? or is that not an option that pleases you ? and I take it you play an EoT army, so would you be one of those people that would like it to be updated then ?

EDIT : forgive me for all questions, but id like to understand your point of view.

Personally i have no "official" army being one of the few minor-race fantatics out - and so have always had to use "counts as", so for me I am used to that method myself.

[trjames]

You obviously don't have 200 little plastic men (Many of which were conversions or kitbashes) gathering dust because their rules are no longer acceptable to the stuffy tournament-or-nothing crowd. The age of house rules is dead. Thanks GW for killing the hobby you had a large part in creating. It's like getting a whole town hooked on a drug and then putting rat poison in it. (I'm not a little bitter, am I?):mad:

I take your point and understand your frustration, but as AX says, what about counts as? Use whatever models you want, but apply standard rules (that you can get at just about any games store).

[Katie Drake]

Is updating Eye of Terror in general a good idea? Probably. The Cadian Shock Troops contained therein probably don't really need any attention since the current Guard Codex practically shoves Cadians into your face. That being said, I guess Sharpshooters would be a cool ability to bring back.

The Ulthwe Strike force was a really unique list and should totally make a return. It was an entertaining change from the norm and was a lot of fun to play both with and against.

The 13th Company should absolutely make a return, even if it's only as simple as units of Wulfen being made an official add-on to Codex: Space Wolves. I feel for the 13th Company players that have units of Wulfen that aren't really good for much anymore - the best one could do would be to use individual Wulfen models inside squads to represent models with the Mark of the Wulfen. The Gate psychic power could be re-introduced easily enough - just copy-paste Gate of Infinity from Codex: Space Marines and all is done.

Last and certainly not least, the Lost and the Damned need to make a comeback. It was easily the most versatile list in the game. It was possible to field tons of different themed armies. You could have an entirely Traitor Guard force by taking multiple units of Traitors for Troops and Fast Attack as well as Traitor Tanks and Recon vehicles like Sentinels. If you wanted, you could field a horde of Mutants and Daemons that played like a Chaos-ified Ork army. You could take a balanced mix of Traitors and Mutants and field units of Allied Chaos Space Marines alongside them. Lastly, you were even able to take Kroot Mercenary allies. All of this in a single army? Yes please!

I'm thinkin' that either GW should get onto updating these lists, or the highly talented BOLS crew should see what they can do in regard to the matter.

[warpcrafter]

In answer to Assymetrical Xenos and trjames, I have a massive Lost and the Damned army. Mutants, Traitors, Plague Zombies and some imperial guard armor, including a Baneblade. I have not been able to use any of it in battle in years, and in fact have never used the Baneblade. I know there are Apocalypse datasheets that I could use, but I can't get anyone at my FLGS to play an Apocalypse battle, because they are either Noobs with 1,000 points or veterans like me who have grown disenchanted with 40K. I have tried to introduce the idea of using Apocalypse datasheets in regular games, but it was met with much disdain. People just don't want to hear about anything that is not universally 100% GW/tournament legal any more. I suppose with some really imaginative explanations I could use them as Imperial Guard, but the amount of "counts as" required would give me a migraine.

[Brass Scorpion]

Special campaign themed Codex books never got support for more than a couple years after their release, understandably drawing complaints from many customers who built armies based on the specialty lists in those books. This was true for Codex Armageddon, Codex Eye of Terror and the Storm of Chaos Fantasy campaign book. If you built a large army based on any of the lists in those books, you are likely sitting on a carefully themed, heavily converted, time-consuming and expensive painting project that can only be used in games by pre-arrangement with friends or by using some type of "counts as" substitution with a more current army book.

I don't think you'll see GW doing these types of books again soon and frankly I don't think they should do them if they can't support them for long. If they do such books again, I'd like to see a disclaimer with them stating that people building armies based on them should only do so with the knowledge that those armies will not be considered "official" after a few years due to the lack of dedicated full model ranges and long-term rules support.

[Melissia]

Hate to sound like a broken record here, but let's be honest-- these are mostly sub-armies and subfactions within an army (or sub-army). The thirteenth company of the Space Wolves, for example, is a subfaction WITHIN a subfaction (that is, they are a part of the Space Wolves, whom are a part of the Space Marines). If they ever are updated, they should wait until all other codices are updated first. After that, sure, whatever.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Hate to sound like a broken record here, but let's be honest-- these are mostly sub-armies and subfactions within an army (or sub-army). If they ever are updated, they should wait until all other codices are updated first. After that, sure, whatever.

I agree on that, id like to see the inquisition, necrons and DE get done...soon...

[jahred]

Whilst such lists were fun and nice alternatives to the standard lists, they should concentrate on the main codexs before expanding into such sub-lists. However, if someone wanted to use their Lost and the Damned army against me that I would have no problem playing them. It seems odd that there is such a big thing that if you can't use your army in a tornie, the end is nigh - I mean, what happened to friendly games using such lists?

[PhoenixFlame]

Should EoT, Armageddon et al be updated? Sure. Would it really be as resource intensive as a fresh codex? I really don't think it needs to be.
But the core Codex set needs to be done first.

A real problem here is that GW seems intent on releasing new editions of the core rules before/with out updating the army lists.


Quick recap;
* Rogue Trader 1987
* 2nd Edition Rulebook 1993
* 3rd Edition Rulebook 1998
* 4th Edition Rulebook 2004
* 5th Edition Rulebook 12 July 2008.

Publication Dates of 'current' Codex books;


5th Edition codexes

* Codex: Imperial Guard - May 2nd, 2009
* Codex: Space Wolves - October 2009
* Codex: Space Marines - 2008

4th edition codexes

* Codex: Chaos Daemons - May 2008
* Codex: Orks - January 2008
* Codex: Blood Angels (download) - 2007
* Codex: Chaos Space Marines - September 2007
* Codex: Dark Angels - 2007
* Codex: Eldar - 2006
* Codex: Tau Empire - 2006
* Codex: Black Templars - 2005
* Codex: Tyranids - 2004

3rd edition codexes

* Codex: Daemonhunters - 2003
* Codex: Witch Hunters - 2003
* Codex: Necrons - released 2002
* Codex: Dark Eldar (2nd version) - released 1998


11 years and 2 editions have gone by since the Dark Eldar revision was released, only 1 edition and 3 years for the Tau but around half of their upgrades effect the now nonexistent Target Priority rules. And for that matter (tho not as extreme) why couldn't the release of Orks and Daemons have been held 6 months, given a slight review and published as part of 5th edition?
I'd hazard to say some of the core updates were called for to enhance/balance the rules (tho if any more veteran players want to educate me on that feel free :) however I'm having trouble seeing why at this point we need a whole new edition of the rules every 4 years (and in fairness maybe that's not what GW intends).
It simply seems like it would enhance the whole balance of the hobby to keep the available Codexes contemporary to each other. After all how do you balance effect/rules/point costs across 5+ years and multiple editions?

2c

Phoenix


ps ~ my first army list was 13th Co. for those who care :p

[Old_Paladin]

I really don't see how most (and thats most, not all) people couldn't just use the newest verison of the core codex to represent their army.

Like it's been said: 13th Company are Space Wolves, Ulthwe strike force are Eldar. I know they aren't exactly the same and don't have all the little extra rules, but they are pretty close.
The best army in the book really was LatD. It's use as a traitor guard list is pointless, just use guard. The blended lists are what is hard to replicate. But if you have WitchHunters, it has updated rules for a similar list in the back. That, or you could use Guard with daemon/witch hunter allies and call them Chaos Marines/Muties.

[Katie Drake]

It's kinda hard to play an Ulthwe Strike Force without the Webway Portal, Black Guardians, etc. :confused:

[eagleboy7259]

Did GW ever say why they killed off the Wulfen? I have a quite few of those models laying around...

[Old_Paladin]

It's kinda hard to play an Ulthwe Strike Force without the Webway Portal, Black Guardians, etc. :confused:

You could play dark eldar and call them Ulthwe... with 'eldar lasguns'... and, no Farseers? OK, Maybe not.
Although, Codex Craftworld Eldar really added variety to the Eldar. That Codex should be redone before Eye of Terror.

[MajorSoB]

While I can say its not a bad idea, I can safely say it will never happen for one reason, Andy Chambers.

Andy was the person at GW that specialized in fun, themed lists whose rules were made to represent some feature of the 40K fluff. Andy added several special rules and armies through "Chapter Approved" articles in White Dwarf. While they gave alot more flexibility in the hobby they created a nightmare for tournamnet organizers who had to local all these special rules wherever they were be it a White dwarf or a FAQ somewhere on the GW website. Andy was talented and had a knack for adding flavor without changing the balance to a large degree. Sadly he is no longer with GW. Jervis and company now head this part of GW. They struggle to maintain codex balance. To think that they could create sublists like the ones found in the Eye of Terror and still have some thread of balance left in the game is madness. They have streamlined the game for obvious reasons and show no signs of going back to the past. So:

-Lost and the Damned will not be recreated. Sadly you are stuck playing it as traitor guard with the current Guard codex and using "counts as" rules.

-Ulthwe is gone too. With the loss of the Craftworld special rules you are stuck using the current Eldar codex to play a Black Eldar list. Sorry but its simple that fits in the the current business theme.

-13th Company should have been an elite choice similar to LoTD but its just wasnt meant to be. I guess this also helps GW in that they need not produce as many kits. Good bye Wulfen, we will miss you!

-While Cadian Shock troops were of some interest to Guard players I see no real loss here. I would be happier with specialized rules for Death Korp of Kreig moreso than the return of this list.

[imperialsavant]

In answer to Assymetrical Xenos and trjames, I have a massive Lost and the Damned army. Mutants, Traitors, Plague Zombies and some imperial guard armor, including a Baneblade. I have not been able to use any of it in battle in years, and in fact have never used the Baneblade. I know there are Apocalypse datasheets that I could use, but I can't get anyone at my FLGS to play an Apocalypse battle, because they are either Noobs with 1,000 points or veterans like me who have grown disenchanted with 40K. I have tried to introduce the idea of using Apocalypse datasheets in regular games, but it was met with much disdain. People just don't want to hear about anything that is not universally 100% GW/tournament legal any more. I suppose with some really imaginative explanations I could use them as Imperial Guard, but the amount of "counts as" required would give me a migraine.

;) although Iam a "die Hard" Puritan Inquisitor Imperial type I always thought the "lost & damned" was a really great idea & so fluffy from the many Black Library novels that featured them.
It gave a huge option for different units & I always enjoyed playing against them.

Fortunately our club which I help run are very accepting of non codex Armies provided they are based on old rules/codex/ WD lists etc so I can still clense the Imperium of those misguided scum (LOL)
Hell I just played a 1000 Sons Army based on the old Chaos Codex with Daemons etc. ( & managed to cream them to my suprise!) "For the Emperor!" :)

[DarkLink]

I think there are other, actual codecies that need to be updated before they go and do an extra Chaos 'dex. Mainly Necrons, Daemonhunters and Dark Eldar. Witchhunters, too.

[steeldragon]

I would love to see a 'sub-factions' codex, with something for every race/factions in the 40K universe... so Tau get Kroot mercs, Chaos get LatD, Eldar Ulthwe Strike Forces, Orks Speed Freaks, Dark Eldar Wych Cults, IG a new regiment, Necrons the mad Outsider followers, Space Marines an Iron Hands list and so on... but that's just me dreaming :P

Andres

[DuskRaider]

I love the idea of bringing back Lost and the Damned, but sadly I don't see it happening unless they add it as a side option in a new Chaos codex, which is rumored for next year (we'll see). That said, I know it's uber expensive, but why not check out Imperial Armour books 5 - 7. Siege of Vraks lists were the closest thing you'll get these days to Lost and the Damned, and while centered around Traitor Guard, still included some Chaos Marines, Mutants, and a couple other nifty options. Check it out if you'd like.

[MarshalAdamar]

I would like to see rules for fielding an entire lost and he dammed army, along with the 13th company.

[clkeagle]

I think the only thing that could simultaneously stop the division between "hobbyists" and "tournament players," as well as reintroduce some of the fluffy aspects, is to split 40k into two different variants - game and tournament. The Epic:Armageddon rulebook attempted this in some fashion - it's a fantastic tournament ruleset, but it also had non-points-costed rules for all the fun old models like Imperators, Ordinatus, Capitol Imperialis, etc.

Why not do this with 40k? Have basic "tournament" army lists for Space Marines (no chapter variant lists), Imperial Guard, Orks, Chaos Marines, Daemons, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons. The "tournament" lists could be 24 pages long, since people who primarily play tournaments probably aren't interested in 50 pages of fluff or 20 pages of painting and modeling.

Outside of the tournament scene, why not have a "campaign codex" variant army every two months in White Dwarf, also available as a PDF download? These can cover all the variant Marine chapters, Chaos legions, Grey Knights, Sisters, Lost and the Damned, Guard regiments, Ork clans, Grot Rebels, Kroot Mercs, Genestealer Cults... you name it, it could have a playable, officially-supported ruleset that is far more focused on fluff than perfect balance. You show up with a printed copy of the minidex, give your opponent a few minutes to skim it if he isn't familiar with it, go over a few basics of the army lists, and then play a fun game.

Tournament players then no longer have to worry about which codex has what smoke launchers, storm shields, psychic powers, etc. Their army lists and options are streamlined, and they can worry more about tactics than list-building.

The biggest loser, obviously, is the hardcopy codex. But in this world of high commercial printing costs and cheap inkjet printers at home... how much actual PROFIT is GW making on book sales, vs. the extra $20-30 per army that each player could be spending on models/paints/tools?