1850 Imperial Fists

[Terminator]

I'm trying to create a competitive list for my Imperial Fists successor chapter. Your comments are very appreciated!

Lysander 200
1x5 Terminators w/ Hammers/Shields in a LR Redeemer 440
2x Dreadnoughts w/ 2x TL Autocannons 250
3x10 Tactical Marines w/ Missile Launcher/Flamer in Rhinos 615
3x Vindicators 345

1850 points

[incenerate101]

I would consider dropping a vindicator or two in exchange for more boots on the table. In my experience in tournaments people wll focus fire your troops first and without them you are screwed

[Seirin]

I have to second Incinerate as you'll often be brought to the point of being unable to win.

Also, for your unit setups. If you take a rhino, try to link the heavy and special weapons. Flamer and ML work, but only when combat squad'ing so the ML can sit back and the flamer run forward. Personal preference is the melta/multi-melta combo.

As for the vindicators; they can have a place, but only usually against hordes. Against anything else they'll usually either be destroyed before getting into range, or be neigh irrelevant in the damage they can cause.

The dreadnoughts also. Twin autocannon dreads are a grey knight thing for a reason; psybolt ammo. Without it you lose a lot of tank-killy-ness and the ability to KO T4 or lower. Basically, not worth it. For the same price you can get a predator with autocannon and twin lascannon sponsoons, or nearly a pair of autocannon/heavy bolter preds. This would be my advice, either 2 auto/las preds or 2 auto/bolters and a closer quaters dread to support the redeemer on its charge.

[Terminator]

So four troops then. I would really like to stick with the land raider/ terminators and at least two vindicators. What other units would be complementary? I find that I like combat squadding, so what weapons would be good? I feel drawn to plasma cannons. Thanks for the feedback!

[Terminator]

Okay gentlemen, how's this?

Lysander 200
1x5 Terminators w/ Hammers/Shields in a LR Redeemer 440
4x10 Tactical Marines w/ Multi-Melta/Meltagun/Meltabombs in Rhinos 860
3x Vindicators 345

1845 points

[Seirin]

If combat squadding then plasma cannons are fine. Plasma, ML and multi melta should be your only considerations really - MM if you dont combat.

This list is better but...honestly theres a lot better to get than 3 vindicators. One should be the limit, but then again it's all what you prefer. If you were to lose one then perhaps an auto/bolter pred and a dual heavy bolter land speeder? Would need to make a few points room but still.

What you lack atm is distance; everything you have is close range. Even swapping to long range heavies on the tacticals wouldn't counter that - it just isn't enough. Also, if taking lysander you'll be wanting to make use of his bolster defenses. Ideally bolster something you can sit a tank in and let it sit there all game.

[spaceman91]

This is just me so don't take this as gospel but i have always found that sternguard are invaluable. i always field at least one unit of them. in the torny i was in they were the only unit in my army that really hit hard in every game. on the subject of vindicators i have only ever seen them work when taken as a three. my partner at the torny took only one and they just picked on it every game. I have a mate who runs a vindy list and tbh its not that great.

[Camael]

As far as I can tell, you're using Lysander for appearance only. While I understand its a fist list, try running him with bolter guys like shooty terms, sternguard or a squad of HB devs. Or you can just drop him entirely and take a techmarine to bolster stuff. I am pretty new at this but I hope this helps!

[ElectricPaladin]

Your list lacks two things.

Firstly, you have a serious lack of long-range fire support or any reliable way of getting your army close enough to use your short-range weaponry. With any of my armies - especially my Tau - I could easily hang back and blast away at you with my superior range. Railguns kill rhinos. Railguns kill dreadnoughts. Heck - railguns kill land raiders, especially now that I can glance it to death. And if I hang back, use the superior mobility afforded to me by my skimmers, you will never get close enough to hurt me. Even with my Space Marines, I can Drop Pod up your nose, or hang back and blast you with missile launchers and sniper rifles and autocannons and heavy bolters. Damn, even my Blood Angels have some lascannon/missile launcher devastators.

Secondly, your list lacks versatility.

This one is a bit harder to express, because the lack is more abstract than "take more X" or "trade in a Y and upgrade your Z." The problem with this list is that it's very linear. At the start of your game, you line up your rhinos and begin their slow progress towards me. Rhinos are pretty durable, the troops inside are pretty powerful, and it's not a bad strategy... until something goes wrong. Rhinos get stuck in terrain. Rhinos get killed. There are tools in 40k that will allow a canny opponent to completely outclass you. Deep striking meltaguns wrecking your rhinos from the rear. Outflanking critters with rending claws and WS 6. Long-range lances that turn your rhinos into terrain and the tacs inside into targets.

Marine armies have a bad reputation for being boring and spammy, and while I hate to say it, that's what your list is. It's got transports - tough, cheap, and plentiful - powerful infantry, and good short-range firepower, but your list doesn't give you any tools. A good player will outthink you, outmaneuver you, and take your list apart one rhino at a time.

Despite it's bad rep, the Space Marines codex has lots of tools for giving you tactical flexibility. Drop pods, scouts, land speeders... these units have the tactical flexibility to do more than roll towards my lines and wait for my railguns to blow you apart.

[Terminator]

AI really appreciate the feedback. I take Lysander because he's my favorite character and he's an assault monster. I don't particularly care about his rules. He's meant to be riding in a Land Raider with other Terminators and I love to play him that way.

I think Sternguard are a solid unit but at this time would like to focus my elite points on a Termie deathstar.

I think the dimensional and range problems that were pointed out are fair. I need suggestions on how to balance the list with differing units while trying to attain hardness for tournament playability.

Please help me draft a balanced, strong build. A Lysander/Hammernator/Raider deathstar is mandatory for me to enjoy the army. I'm open to anything else. I'd love to use Vindicators but can accept using other options. I'm tired of being pummeled by my brother's Tau so please help! Thanks!

[ElectricPaladin]

I'm glad that you're clear on what makes this list fun for you. I will not suggest that you do anything else with your elites points. As far as I know, there's nothing wrong or foolish about building your list around an elite core that can smash everything in its path. However, if the core of your army is so... direct, the rest of it needs to take care of the triksy.

Here are a couple of potential suggestions:

1) Trade one or two of your vindicators for dakka or las predators. If you like vindicators, feel free to keep one.

2) Trade in one of the tac/rhino squads for a devastator squad.

3) Turn one of the rhinos into a razorback. Lasbacks and las/plasbacks are popular, but even the standard heavy bolter has a 36' range and gets **** killed.

4) Put one of your tac squads in a drop pod.

5) Put Lysander and company in a standard land raider rather than one of the close-range variants - then it can double as anti-tank as it trundles towards enemy lines.

6) Trade in a tac squad or two for scouts who can infiltrate or outflank as the situation requires it. Scouts with sniper rifles are very killy. Scouts with a missile launcher pack a nasty and surprising punch.

7) Try adding landspeeders (personally, I prefer Typhoons - the long range combines well with their speed to let them attack enemy vehicles and heavy infantry without fear of reprisal). Potentially, put your scouts in a land speeder storm.

[Terminator]

Excellent suggestions. Based on your input, what would you think of something like this? If nothing else, it would probably receive a decent composition score.

Lysander 200
1x5 Hammernators in a Redeemer 440
3x10 Tacticals w/ Flamer/Multi-Melta in Rhinos 615
1x10 Scout Snipers w/ Camo Cloaks 170
2x Typhoons 180
2x Destructor w/ Lascannon Sponsons 240

1845 poinrs

[ElectricPaladin]

Excellent suggestions. Based on your input, what would you think of something like this? If nothing else, it would probably receive a decent composition score.

Lysander 200
1x5 Hammernators in a Redeemer 440
3x10 Tacticals w/ Flamer/Multi-Melta in Rhinos 615
1x10 Scout Snipers w/ Camo Cloaks 170
2x Typhoons 180
2x Destructor w/ Lascannon Sponsons 240

1845 poinrs

Now that is a list. Good job. There are a few things I'd personally do differently, but YMMV.

• I don't recall if the assault termies being all hammers all the time is important to your fun, but if it isn't, I'd consider letting some of them keep their lightning claws. I think it's a good idea for some of the squad to be hitting on initiative, just in case.
• I like that you're mixing it up a bit with the flamers/meltas on your tacs, but I'd consider taking it further. Maybe you could decide what each of your three tac squads is for, with meltas/multi-meltas on one, plasma guns/cannons on the other, and something else on the third. Being able to say - to yourself, anyway - "this is my tac squad for killing light infantry, this is my tac squad for killing heavy infantry, this is my tac squad for charging tanks" or even "these are my two tac squads for killing infantry and this is my tac squad for killing tanks" (rather than attempting to configure all three tactical squads as multi-purpose squads) can be a good choice.
• I think you might get a little more mileage out of one full-on Predator Annihilator (all lascannons) and one Predator Destructor (all dakka) might serve you better. Or maybe not. I've only just started fielding predators myself, so...

Anyway, I think you're set to win some games. Come back and tell us how it went.

[Saint_Anger]

All you need is time and safe passage for you Land Raider to reach destination. You may need to think carefully what target you’ll assault first and where it will probably happen. I would exchange all rhinos for drop pods and drop them in the first turn right where enemy long-range units are (or anything that you think it will threat your Land Raider). I use one vindicator & Defiler in my Thousand Sons army. Two large blasts are very good, three will be even better. But you may somehow find it hard to deploy them in your needed location, especially when you face Tau which has superior range weapons. IMO, if you drop one vindicator, you can purchase two more drop pods and now you can put two dreadnoughts with heavy flamers & Multi-Melta in two drop pods! If you face Tau, drop these two where his troops are (probably in cover) and burn them. So, in summary…
Lysander 200
1x5 Terminators w/ Hammers/Shields in a LR Redeemer 440
2x Dreadnoughts w/ Heavy Flamer & Multi-Melta in drop pods 300
3x10 Tactical Marines w/ Missile Launcher/Flamer in drop pods 615
3x Vindicators 230
1785 points
You got 65 points to spare for more upgrades, perhaps sth in Tactical marines for better close firefight. You now got 3 of 5 drop pods for first turn, just choose them carefully which one to make drop first. And with only 3 units (LR, 2 vindicators) on the board for the first turn, you can find it more easier to find cover save for them. Three units from drop pod would not be likely destroyed entirely in the first turn and that can draw fire from your LR. Gd Luck!

[Terminator]

All good ideas above, thanks for the responses. I can't say I have any experience with drop pods. But perhaps. In the mean time, I've had some other ideas for my Fists; trying to keep with their fluff and still trying for a hard list.

Lysander 200
1x5 Assault Terminators in a Land Raider 450
3x10 Tacticals w/ Plasmagun/Plasma Cannon in Rhinos 660
2x2 Attack Bikes w/ Multi-Meltas 200
2x Vindicators w/ Dozer Blades 240
1x Thunderfire Cannon 100

Total: 1850