Mechanised Armies, need some help

[doom-kitten]

I've just got back into 40k after an almost year long break and well the new vehicle rules are a bit ****ty and my army is mechanised with a DT for almost every unit, removing the tanks only reduces me point limit considerably and takes out all my long-range firepower. If your wondering I play sisters so Exorcist are really the only thing I have that can reach out and touch, I considered allying some guard but really would prefer staying pure sister. I could use some help with this and any armoured advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Schlitzaf]

(I've only played 1 game of 6th, and beside from reading rulebook and posts, I don't have on 'jobs' experince with 6th)

But Vechicles have been hit, but not nerfed into obivilion, while a Rhino Rush may no longer be super effective, a vechicle heavy list (assuming your playing sisters) can still work. The Excorcists have argueablly gotten better with, being always able to shoot regardless of being shaken or stunned. The hullpoints could be seen as boost as glancing does no longer stun/shake you, while they don't last as long that doesn't make them worse.

Also your SOB in Rhino still function adaquetly, yes you can no longer hold objective while in said Rhino. But can always hide in it, until last turn and jump out. In addition from what I read you can still jump out and double tap, not if you are still able to go 12 and double tap, but I am certain (96.0.%) that you can still go 6 and double tap.

Your vechicles may not last as long as per say they did in 5th, but they are easily still as effective if not more so, depending on what you use them for. A Repentia unit hiding in a Rhino countercharge (likewise with Deathcults) might be a tad more diffcult but you could possibly try to dismount earlier once you see enemy closing in.

I hope that helps

[isotope99]

An aegis line gives some useful bonus 4+ cover cheap, as well as a handy AA gun, great for protecting your heavy support choices.

My allies recommendation is GK Henchmen possibly in an assault transport (coteaz + 1-2 henchmaen squad + land raider/storm raven) to add some assault backbone and/or heavy firepower to the force whilst still being pretty flulffy if you use a sisters inquisitor instead of his normal model.

[Vaktathi]

(I've only played 1 game of 6th, and beside from reading rulebook and posts, I don't have on 'jobs' experince with 6th)

But Vechicles have been hit, but not nerfed into obivilion, while a Rhino Rush may no longer be super effective, a vechicle heavy list (assuming your playing sisters) can still work. The Excorcists have argueablly gotten better with, being always able to shoot regardless of being shaken or stunned. The hullpoints could be seen as boost as glancing does no longer stun/shake you, while they don't last as long that doesn't make them worse. The problem is that only glancing hits no longer shake/stun while they also contribute greatly to destruction, with the vehicle's lifespan is typically less than half of what it was under 5E against most weapons, and is all but assured of being auto-killed by krak grenade assault (standard gear on basic troops for at least half the armies in the game) and the like. So while your tank may avoid being stunned for 1 turn in 6th that it would have been stunned for in 5th, it may only live and shoot for 2 turns whereas in 5th it may have spent 1 or 2 turns stunned but would have been more likely to live to the end of the game and had another 3 or 4 turns of firing. :(



Your vechicles may not last as long as per say they did in 5th, but they are easily still as effective if not more so, depending on what you use them for Transports are not in any way anywhere near as effective as they were aside from gaining 4" more distance away from a transport when disembarking, and only vehicles that somehow manage a mathematically out-of-the-ordinary sequence of glances are going to find themselves shooting significantly more, and in that case they're just as likely (if not moreso) to be dead instead unfortunately :p

[Iceman]

Being a Sisters player myself, I think I find that part of the problem with Sisters is their lack of variety in troop and unit choices. This has always been a handicap.

Having said that, I agree with Shlitzaf that a heavily mechanized list can still work since your opponent will have to think harder about target priority. Sure, you can kill a Rhino/Immolator with 3 glancing hits. That still means you have to concentrate enough of your firepower to ensure you get 3 glancing hits. In the past, you could suppress a bunch of Immolators merely by getting a "Shaken" result. Now, you may be able to wreck an Immolator or two each turn, but the rest of them will be shooting at you.

The big difference is that vehicles are no longer practically invincible juggernauts. More "realistic" if you ask me.

I think the bigger problem you face is that you have no air units in a purely SOB build. Make sure you bring along an Aegis Defence Line with a quad gun.

THe

[imperialpower]

My mechonized guard army still works fine, out of the games I have had using 6th my transports move acorss the board much quicker thanks to the 'crew stunned' ect on the old glancing chart not affecting them anymore. Honestly the new rules for vehicles seem to have half of players saying yes they make your tanks more affective because they can shoot and move more of the time and the other half of players saying you may as well smash up all your tanks becuase they are now rubbish it just depends on who you talk to.

[Vaktathi]

Now, you may be able to wreck an Immolator or two each turn, but the rest of them will be shooting at you. This is assuming all you inflict on anything else is glancing hits... and don't inflict a penetrating hit on anything...

white your AT kills tanks at generally twice the rate it used to.



The big difference is that vehicles are no longer practically invincible juggernautsTo say the least, vehicles have never been as easily killed in the history of 40k as they are in 6th edition.

[Iceman]

Honestly I'm not sure how you come up with AT killing tanks at twice the rate as before. Using a lascannon as an example, a penetrating hit needs a 5 or a 6 on the table (taking into account the +1 for being an AP2 weapon) to destroy the vehicle. This is exactly the same as 5th edition.

Imperialpower is correct. On balance they really are not that much different from 5th. If you are so insistent that they are useless than go to a completely foot SOB or change armies. I still think your bigger problem is no access to airpower.

[doom-kitten]

Honestly I'm not sure how you come up with AT killing tanks at twice the rate as before. Using a lascannon as an example, a penetrating hit needs a 5 or a 6 on the table (taking into account the +1 for being an AP2 weapon) to destroy the vehicle. This is exactly the same as 5th edition.

Imperialpower is correct. On balance they really are not that much different from 5th. If you are so insistent that they are useless than go to a completely foot SOB or change armies. I still think your bigger problem is no access to airpower.

I don't agree and am looking for advice to help continue playing my army not trying to ***** about the rules change, I will not change armies over this, I'm not that big a baby. I like tanks and I'm going to keep using them, I merely wanted help formulating tactics. I didn't mean to come off as complaining about balance and the nerfing of tanks, I'm sorry if that's how I came off. Also there's a vast difference to a lascannon which is an AT weapon killing a tank and a bolter which is not an AT weapon killing a tank by glancing it 3 times? And correct me if I'm wrong but a squad of ten marines carting around bolters have a better chance of killing a rhino then a single marine with a lascannon when they rapid fire. I don't know the math but I have watched it happen to may times to be convinced.

I have an Aegis for my Retributors already and I love the quad gun XD, I did think of using GK but not in that manner, I'm still itching for some gaurdsmen thou. And air power is easy I can very quickly ally and get a plane, whoopy a flying boomstick.

[Vaktathi]

Honestly I'm not sure how you come up with AT killing tanks at twice the rate as before. Using a lascannon as an example, a penetrating hit needs a 5 or a 6 on the table (taking into account the +1 for being an AP2 weapon) to destroy the vehicle. This is exactly the same as 5th edition. AP1/2 weapons don't have quite the same boost, hence why I said most, however even lascannons are noticeably more effective, as your calculation is missing HP's entirely. ;)

For instance, against AV12, under 5E you needed a 4 to pen, and then a 5 or 6 to destroy, so you needed an average of 9 BS4 lascannon shots. Under 6E, since we still have that same chance there, but also HP's *on top* of that also, meaning two complementary kill mechanics, between needing to inflict either 3 HP's worth of damage or inflict a killing strike, your average number of lascannon shots required to kill is closer to 4 on average, with just under 7 on average required to kill through HP's alone.

Lets take an Autocannon against AV11, the non AP1/2 weapons actually got a bigger boost even losing 1-shot potential. Under 5th, you'd need an average of 13.5 BS4 autocannon shots to kill an AV11 vehicle. Now through HP's alone you only need 9 shots on average to kill through HP's alone, coupled with chance to kill outright (albeit lower), you need an average of ~7 BS4 autocannon shots.

:eek:


And there's the issue, we've got a wound mechanic on top of an insta-kill/disable mechanic. Vehicles are subjected to two overlapping methods of destruction and typically no save or very weak saves.

Essentially what has happened is that vehicles have been turned into T6-10 MC's with typically 3 wounds but no save (or when they do get one, it's typically only 5+) that are disabled/crippled in some way or Insta-killed on any to-wound value that exceeds the minimum roll required to wound. On top of this, in CC, they're almost all reduced to T6 even if other armor facings are much higher and WS0 or WS1 at best with 3 wounds and no save.

CC especially hurts, there's very little difference between moving and not moving, so we end up where a stationary Rhino, a maneuvering Leman Russ, or a Holo-field Falcon moving Flat Out, are all almost assured death in a krak grenade assault and are easier to kill in CC with said grenades than 2 basic Tac marines are for the vast majority of units.

And unlike every other unit type in the game they can't interact with objectives at all even with embarked infantry Troops units except one mission and only if they are HS units. MC's can, jetbikes can, flying MC's can, jump infantry can, but vehicles can't :(

[doom-kitten]

The above post hurt my head XD no offence intended but wow, you know your stuff.

[Angron]

What really nerfed vehicles imo is the fact that you can't assault after disembarking, even if the vehicle was stationary. You almost have to hope they pop your box and dont kill everyone inside, so you can get off the charge. I don't mind vehicles being easier to destroy, but that particular change hurt.

[Filthspew]

What really nerfed vehicles imo is the fact that you can't assault after disembarking, even if the vehicle was stationary. You almost have to hope they pop your box and dont kill everyone inside, so you can get off the charge. I don't mind vehicles being easier to destroy, but that particular change hurt.

It doesnt help if the transport breaks in the opponents turn.

They can not assault in the ensuing assault fase.

Something to bear in mind is that in 5th, glances could render a vehicle ineffective for a turn but would rarely destroy it. Now, they remain perfectly effective but break from glances.
And you have a number telling exactly what you need to take it out.

What this does is allow your opponent to maximize his resources spent on your vehicles much better.

Instead of that Rhino being stunned and weapon destroyed, and the complicated math of the chance to roll the best result if glancing it, you now know its one more HP off and out they go.

So, not only are vehicles easier to kill, but you also do not waste as many resources in the process of killing them.

To top things off, blasts are full strength under the entire area. Do not underestimate that!
This has made them way more dangerous to vehicles.
Especially more vehicles close together :eek:

[the jeske]

or to make it more simple . only gunplatforms worth anything are those that can be delivered to their target without counter . which then comes down to flyers and rarely to stuff like ouflanking baal preds .
6th is the age of shoting gunlines and mecha does still work very well . When it is made out of flyers or has hvy flyer support .

As sob goes . IG ally of course. aegis line for some autocannon/plas IG blobs and a command section + vendettas and/or valks.130 pts for lascannons that get hit only on +6 and can be spamed , cant be ignored.