Blood Angels in 6th Edition

[ElectricPaladin]

What do you think about the Sons of Baal in 6th Edition?

I've got to say, I think it looks pretty grim. In five major ways, 6th Edition has cut the legs out from under the Blood Angels.

1) 6th Edition has made Deep Strike more dangerous through the introduction of the Interceptor USR. Although there aren't a lot of Interceptors out there, I think we will see a lot more of them in the near future, especially as adding the Interceptor rule is how you make a model with Skyfire able to shoot at models on the ground without penalty. I predict that every faction will get at least one Interceptor + Skyfire model (Space Marine Whirlwind is one, and I predict that Tyranid Pyrovore will work the same way, if it is in fact being re-imagined as an anti-aircraft weapon).

2) 6th Edition has made Deep Strike less flexible. Now that half your army has to start in play, and losing every model on the table is the same as being tabled, even if you have models in reserves, it's no longer possible to dynamically deploy your army based on your opponent's deployment and early maneuvers. This is a huge hit.

3) I don't think vehicles are now completely useless, but the fact that they are a lot more fragile seriously hurts the fast-rhino-chassis family of strategies. Vehicular fragility is a mixed bane, since it does - theoretically - make it easier for us to tear transports open to eat the delicious targets inside.

4) Overwatch isn't enormously reliable, but it can put a dent in you, especially with flame template weapons. This is bad for assault armies, which many Blood Angels strategies are. Of course, this makes creating a flamer-heavy drop squad and deploying it up an enemy's nose potentially a fun strategy. However, unlike the Space Wolves we are not a counter-punch army - we lack Counter-Attack - which makes this strategy iffy at best in terms of actual effectiveness.

5) The changes to Furious Charge make it harder for Blood Angels to get that first blow in. Since we don't actually hit harder than any other power armor army, that extra point of Initiative was key. Now that we don't have it any more, we're going to lose a lot of combats we used to win.

Where does this leave us?

I don't think the prognosis is good. We're still a marine army, and we can still do a lot of marine tricks. We can still field impressive and adaptable gunlines - the changes to rapid fire weapons makes this an attractive option - we still have some cool vehicles, and we have one of the best flyers out there, albeit also one of the most expensive. We have land raiders, which are still reasonably hard to kill. The changes to power weapons make both terminators and sanguinary guard more attractive.

However, I think that most of what makes Blood Angels unique - not competitive, but unique, interesting, and worth playing as more than just red space marines - has been nerfed. We can't drop our entire army out of the sky. We can't rush forward with unusually fast vehicles, at least not if we expect to win. We can't unexpectedly win combats by virtue of striking first.

In that context, what can we do?

We can play a standard marines army that's a little harder to kill thanks to Feel No Pain, has access to a couple of unusually powerful assault units like death company and sanguinary guard.

That's not really something I'm interested in. It increasingly looks to me like I'll be leaving my Blood Angels on the shelf, alongside my Tau, until their codex gets updated. Fortunately, I have a new marines army that I'm perfectly happy to play as a standard marines army, since that's what I always planned for them to be.

Anyway, I opened this thread to start a conversation, not to *****. Actually, as far as nerfing goes, the Blood Angels are still miles ahead of my poor, poor Tau; I think many Blood Angels players won't be bothered nearly as much as I am by to playing Blood Angels as red marines. What do you think about the situation of the Blood Angels in 6th edition?

[Phototoxin]

I think you need to look at the advantages :

50%+ on the table means that you wont die if only one unit arrives at a time
better reserve rolls from the onset (not 5/4/3/2 anymore)
scattering into terrain doesn't instagib you
saves vs dangeous terrain rolls
everyone elses FNP got nerfed too (except corbulo!)
everyone elses furious charge got nerfed too
Tanks are balanced, not over powered and everyone elses are too.
you get option for hammer of wrath if you don't want that extra D6 assault.

[Wildcard]

- Yeah, and you still get probably most ap1/ap2 shooting to any squad available to any loyalist marine force...

- Terminators and tanks being what they are, you still got a way to punch them hard via shooting before getting up close and personal...

- When you compare to grey knight (no hard feelings from 5th - let the past be past ;) ), those poor souls got no access to meltas, inferno pistols, plasmaguns and plasmapistols, all while leaving them to mostly ap3 weaponry (note i am talking about the superiority of 2+ save and what BA got better to deal with it). Also, assault terminators with 5man TH/SS is way more survivable than 5man DH/SB (Daemonhammer/Stormbolter) GK terminator squad (when trying to max out that ap2 potential).

- Also, with the ability to pre-measure stuff, 2d6 assault range, possible use of beacons / teleport homers etc creates a strong advantage for assaulting straight from the deepstrike. GK got one HQ that will deepstrike on turn 1 and wont scatter, but he has only stormbolter (and ghost knights get only stormbolters) and they cannot assault after ds'ing, thus leaving them out in the open on those daring and up-in-the-enemys-face -raids

- Also, fast rhino / predator chassis is still good, in fact, with vehicles shooting becoming even better in 6th their firepower is even more formidable than before.

- FNP auras still stand, and you can take them always against pretty much everything else than str8+ wounds..

- Was it rage that got buffed that makes death company even more formidable (poor bloodtalon dreads tho)


So in my opinion it doesn't look like you truly got hurted by the coming of 6th.. Ofcourse it will require adaptation and learning of new approaches.. But even so, you are far from out of the game.

And the examples above were just ones i could come up with from my head, so it is possible that there are some mistakes, and most likely there are even more points in codex for those who know it from cover to cover to point out!

:)

[Capt Forsythe]

What do you think about the Sons of Baal in 6th Edition?

2) 6th Edition has made Deep Strike less flexible. Now that half your army has to start in play, and losing every model on the table is the same as being tabled, even if you have models in reserves, it's no longer possible to dynamically deploy your army based on your opponent's deployment and early maneuvers. This is a huge hit.


Could be I read the rules incorrect here, but I thought an army does not count units which must be reserved towards the total which must be halved to indicate how many units must start on the table. Meaning an army with all drop pods has 0 units that must start on the table.

As far as the no unit on the table at the end of a turn thing...yeah, that's a tough one to swallow.

All in all though, the BA took a pretty good lashing.

[Grovel]

Could be I read the rules incorrect here, but I thought an army does not count units which must be reserved towards the total which must be halved to indicate how many units must start on the table. Meaning an army with all drop pods has 0 units that must start on the table.

As far as the no unit on the table at the end of a turn thing...yeah, that's a tough one to swallow.

All in all though, the BA took a pretty good lashing.

In the drop pod example you gave, the units inside the drop pod aren't forced to deploy in them. Since you would need half the units on the table, all the troops inside the drop pods would have to deploy, and you would then rain down empty drop pods on your opponent.

[Capt Forsythe]

In the drop pod example you gave, the units inside the drop pod aren't forced to deploy in them. Since you would need half the units on the table, all the troops inside the drop pods would have to deploy, and you would then rain down empty drop pods on your opponent.

A unit and its dedicated transport are one unit, units in a drop pod must start in reserves.

Is that different now in 6th?

However the ICs from from HQ slots do not have a dedicated transport, and would thus count towards turn 1 forces on the table, so 2 HQs with 5 pods would means 1 mandatory unit starts on the table?

Page 36 states any passengers in units that must Deep Strike in are not counted towards the reserve numbers.

[JMichael]

A unit and its dedicated transport are one unit, units in a drop pod must start in reserves.

Is that different now in 6th?

A dedicated transport and it's unit are not considered 1 unit (they weren't in 5th either and were considered 2 separate units). A dedicated transport simply does not take up a FOC slot (rulebook p78).

On deploying units it states that you MAY deploy units inside transports if you wish (p121).

[DarkLink]

Actually, it does explicitly state that if you deploy a unit in its dedicated transport, it counts as 1 unit for the purposes of the 50% rule. And that 1 unit, due to the drop pod rules, must start in reserve.

[JMichael]

But you don't HAVE to start the unit deployed in the Drop Pod

[ElectricPaladin]

I believe that the rule is this: units with dedicated drop pod transports can start in their drop pod and do not count as either in reserve or not in reserve. Regarding the 50% rule, they are null. This means that you could potentially start your entire army in reserve if all of them were in drop pods.

However, I'm afraid that this doesn't satisfy me. Drop pods? Anyone can do that. I want to be able to take advantage of the Descent of Angels special rule!

[ElectricPaladin]

So, I see what a lot of you are saying about 6th including some good boosts for the Blood Angels, particularly Feel No Pain disentangling from AP, more reliable reserves rolls, the increased fragility of the other guy's transports, the increased durability of our flying almost-terminators, the ability of moving vehicles to fire snap shots, and Hammer of Wrath.

However, I think the biggest problem is still 50% deployment and empty-tabling. Those are the changes that really threaten to suck the distinctiveness out of the Blood Angels.

So, those of you with more optimistic outlooks - what do you think we should do about it?

[JMichael]

I play Eldar and Sisters, but used to play Blood Angels back in 2nd (and still have loads of assault troops).

So in 6th I've added Blood Angels as my regular Sister's of Battle Allies.
Personally my BA allies are doing VERY well. Keep in mind that I haven't played BA since 2nd edition and have to comparison to their effectiveness in 5th vs 6th.

I generally run my allies with:
HQ:
Reclusiarch w/Jump Pack

Elite (in games of 2k+):
Furioso Dreadnought in Drop Pod (either Librarian or Frag Cannon)

Troops:
Death Co w/jump packs
Death Co Dreadnought w/Drop Pod

Fast Attack (in larger games only):
Vanguard Veterans w/jump packs (Herioc Intervention FTW!)

Heavy (in larger games only):
Dreadnought in Drop Pod w/Mulit-Melta, Autocannon

With my Sisters being the anvil and hlding the line, my Blood Angels deep strike into the enemy rear or to block their advance.

So far they work VERY well and compliment my Sisters perfectly.
I really wanted to have (and paint) some Dreadnoughts, so that's why so many. I have the Forgeworld Chaplain Dread subbing for my Death Co as it looks bad arse!
Death Co are very expensive, but with the high # of attacks, fearless, and FnP they can stick around through several rounds of Assault.

I use the BA to take out/occupy the 'big threat' units that my Sisters will have a tough time with (Land Raiders, IG Artillery, Biovores, etc).

[Filthspew]

But you don't HAVE to start the unit deployed in the Drop Pod

But when you do, it is one unit that has to begin in reserves.

If you really want to make an argument out of that, since no rules say that the decision to deploy in their dedicated transport can not be made first, they are allready in the drop pod when you work out what units have to begin in reserves.

Rule book page 124.

[ElectricPaladin]

But when you do, it is one unit that has to begin in reserves.

If you really want to make an argument out of that, since no rules say that the decision to deploy in their dedicated transport can not be made first, they are allready in the drop pod when you work out what units have to begin in reserves.

Rule book page 124.

Can I make a request?

Can we keep the conversation on this thread to the topic of how to keep the Blood Angels vital and unique in 6th, rather than the legality of Drop Pod armies? I don't think anyone would disagree with me when I say that Drop Pods are not a distinctive Blood Angel thing. They're a cool trick available to all Space Marine armies. Therefore, debating this rule isn't what I want this thread to be about.

If you start another thread about it, I'll totally contribute.

Thanks.

[Filthspew]

Your thread, yours to rule ;)

A way to come around the 50% limit on reserves (jump pack list) is to have many cheap units that deploy.

But they should off course be usefull units.

Guard allies could be used for this.

So can armor.

Minimum sized scouts even.

Really, any cheap unit can contribute.

And, ironically, a 5 man Assault squad with dedicated transport that deploy NOT embarked count as 2 units not in reserves :D

[thelion]

my friend and i play almost every weekend since we came back from afgan we play atleast one sometimes 2 or 3 games a weekend i have played against his BA army about 10 times (i play DA) and my score aganst his BA 10 games played 0 games won. now i will admit this sangrail far far out skills me (he dose have about 10 years of playing this game one me) but if the BA dex had taken as much of a hit as you say with the new rules then wouldn't it be more likely that i even with my lesser skill would have pulled off a win or 2 by now instead of getting ground into the dust every weekend?

[ElectricPaladin]

my friend and i play almost every weekend since we came back from afgan we play atleast one sometimes 2 or 3 games a weekend i have played against his BA army about 10 times (i play DA) and my score aganst his BA 10 games played 0 games won. now i will admit this sangrail far far out skills me (he dose have about 10 years of playing this game one me) but if the BA dex had taken as much of a hit as you say with the new rules then wouldn't it be more likely that i even with my lesser skill would have pulled off a win or 2 by now instead of getting ground into the dust every weekend?

Or maybe you just suck more than you fear :p.

Seriously - I kid because I love.

Can you give me some idea of the list your friend runs?

[thelion]

ouch that one hurt ;) he has a huge army i mean his list changes every time but he dose play danti alot and i fight alot of sanguinary gaurd so ill ask him how he builds his list and we will figure out what he is doing right with his ba and get back to you

[Kaika87]

If you're losing to him and he likes bringing Sanguinary Guard, you're not bringing enough Deathwing. Sanguinary Guard are awesome, and Dante is badass, I love both of them in my armies, in 5th and 6th. That said, a sufficiently large block of terminators will still rip them apart if I don't handle it well.

[thelion]

no i have been learning that my issue is i bring all death wing and eventually get out manoeuvred i tend to not support my death wing very well i am still working on it.

[Xenith]

The only way to really run all deathwing is all TH/SS and cyclones. Nothing else. Really, really boring to play against, though.

Back on topic. Jump marines got incredible. DoA was pretty dead by the end of 5th anyway, in fact it dies pretty soon after the BA codex was released and people caught on.

All your dudes with packs get a free I10 attack in combat if you maneuver well, they ignore terrain and other troops when assaulting. you can jump right over that bubble wrap.

FNP is better than before now that it can be taken against power weapons and plasma. So what if it's 5+ now, you still get more guys surviving in the long run due to getting it vs AP2.

LC termies just got good. DC got amazing. lemmy took a bit of a hit, but he was too good for his points anyway.

The only real bad point is the loss of +1I on the charge, but that was possibly too good anyway. It's turned BA RAS from auto includes to fighting for a spot with tactical marines (10 dudes, plasgun, plascan, priest, on an objective is going nowhere.)

[ElectricPaladin]

There's been some good stuff to come out of this thread. Let me see if I can summarize it to best continue the conversation.

Jump Infantry

Jump infantry - of which the Blood Angels have a great deal, from sanguinary guard to assault marines - got better thanks to Hammer of Wrath, their increased (if variable) speed, premeasuring, and increased charge distances.

However, 6th hasn't done anything to help Descent of Angels, which means that it might be best to view jump infantry as an added benefit rather than a primary strategy.

Death Company

Death company got a huge boost now that they are under your control and not your opponent's.

Sanguinary Guard

Sanguinary guard got a lot more surviveable thanks to their 2+ armor and the changes to the way power weapons work now forcing your opponents to chose between going last and penetrating their armor. With axes/powerfists on some of the squad and swords on the rest, they can be a pretty tough unit.

Reserves

I still think that this is where the Blood Angels took the biggest hit, with the rules changes to reserves and tabling meaning that you must deploy half your army, and if that half gets blasted then you have lost the game.

Feel No Pain

I agree that this basically got better, since low AP is more common than instant death, and 5+ is almost as good as 4+.

Let me summarize further:


+
• Hammer of Wrath (boosts all jump infantry)
• Rage Changes (boosts Death Company)
• Power Weapons (boosts Sanguinary Guard)
• Feel No Pain (boosts Sanguinary Priests & Death Company)



-
• Reserves (hurts the basic premise of many Blood Angels lists)
• Overwatch (hurts all assault armies)


What conclusions can we draw from this?

1. Relying too much on jumping assault marines as objective holders may be a mistake. It might be better to focus on the tastier, more offensively focused jump units. Take those assault troops, lose the jump packs, and put them in cheap rhinos/razorbacks, and use those as objective holders. Or, alternately, rely on allies to hold those objectives.

2. The best units for offensive power are probably death company, sanguinary guard, and vanguard veterans. Sanguinary guard benefit from the support of a sanguinary priest. Death company don't need a sanguinary priest, but they particularly enjoy the support of a chaplain or reclusiarch. Jump librarians and captains can take an honor guard, which can include a sanguinary novice, which is a good way to get them Feel No Pain without resorting to an additional model held in reserves.

3. We need to use hit or hard to kill models to start on the table in order to maximize the number of units we can deep strike. Scouts, squads in vehicles, and cheap allies seem like good ideas for this role.

I have to contemplate this and try to spin off a few lists. What are your thoughts on the matter?

[WickedGood]

I think a key improvement is the semi hidden nature of the Priest in combat now. You get to start taking wounds from any model in combat, this definitely increaes his survivability in combat.

Corbulo's FNP is awesome if I am reading it right.

Our version of the strom raven is a flyer killer with the missle's being ap 1.

While you cannot deep strike the whole army having a rerolable 3+ means that 90% of your forces are coming on turn 2.

The Ba'al pred might also be a pretty solid anti flyer unit as 4 twin linked str 6 shots followed by 6 str 5 shots delivers 2+ hits a turn.

[linux]

Ok, so I am new to BoLS but here is my take on this. I play Blood Angels and only Blood Angels. This edition forces us in to a more rounded army. There is no more heavy mech or DoA armies. I have tried both with very little success. But what I have had success with is a mixture of both. The tactical squad is my new best friend and I field more of them than assault squads. This edition moved us from an in your face assault army to more of a hammer and anvil army. It's not that bad if you think about it people see a BA army and they expect a DoA in your face army. And I love to see them freak out when I sit back and dakka dakka them up they make the move from cover and I drop in an assault team to clean them up. It is not bad it's actually a nice change.

[Anggul]

I much prefer the new way to play them, it's what they're really meant to be in the first place. There's an extremely incorrect assumption that Blood Angels are 'All jump packs, all the time!', when in fact they have the same arrangements as other Chapters, but they have a preference for close combat and if it's a choice between the Tacticals being slightly diminished or the Assault squads, it will be the Assault squads that most of them will fill up.

Using a couple of Tactical Squads with a couple of Assault squads and one of many Elite assault units seems like a balanced, fluffy and good way to go about things as a base.

[Simon Hodgson]

ok here is a simple list of 1500 pts

now the 6th edition has unlocked forgeworld units as well dont forget this buffs the BA like never before and makes them 1 seriously effective assault speartip let me explain

Dante 225
Furioso blood talons lucius drop pod 175
Furioso blood talons lucius drop pod 175
San guard 200
san guard 200
san guard power fist 210
san guard power fist 210
assault squad sgt melta bombs drop pod 100

1500pts

so turn 1 set up on table with dante the 4 san guard squads then you have drop pod assault with 3 pods which means 2 arrive first turn what a shock the furiosos so turn 1 your pods drop your furiosos deploy your san guards and dante move fowards and into cover where possible you then assault with the furiosos picking the biggest units on the table they will remain locked in combat or simply shatter the unit charged either way your opponent has just gone mental and whatever stratagy he was thinking of is out of the window as he has 2 rampaging dreads in his deployment zone

turn 2 the sangunary gaurd hit combat the furisos if they have not been delt with cause even more chaos the san guard hit and assault the enemy forces

turn2 or 3 the other pod arrives bringing a simple scoring unit so lay it back on an objective your lucius pods give you linebreaker and you have 4 other scoring units the san guard so victory and mop up should be straight forwards enough

NO other force can do this not even close the furiosos and san guard with dante can deal with everything someone can place on the table and best of all you get to pick exactly where you are going to hit so now tell me how nerfed the angels are !

[AdamHarry]

ok here is a simple list of 1500 pts

now the 6th edition has unlocked forgeworld units as well dont forget this buffs the BA like never before and makes them 1 seriously effective assault speartip let me explain

Dante 225
Furioso blood talons lucius drop pod 175
Furioso blood talons lucius drop pod 175
San guard 200
san guard 200
san guard power fist 210
san guard power fist 210
assault squad sgt melta bombs drop pod 100

1500pts



Ok, wow -- They FAQ'd that. http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/IA2update28AUG.pdf


Hmm... I did not think BA had access to Lucius Pattern Pods. Cause being able to assault from deep strike Turn 1 with a Blood Talon Dread seems a little too good.

Also, please use some punctuation next time :P

Edit: Apparently that is an old link. This is the current link: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/Downloads.html
There is no IA FAQ for 6th currently.

In the current IA book The Lucius Pattern Drop Pods are not available to BA for this specific reason.

[Chris Copeland]

But you don't HAVE to start the unit deployed in the Drop Pod

There really isn't a reason to start a new thread about having a fully drop-podded army. The BoLS community already hashed this all out months ago. The thread can be found here (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?22950-You-CAN-Have-a-Fully-Reserved-Drop-Pod-Army). The numbers have been crunched, the relevant rules have been quoted and a consensus has been reached.

Back to the OP: I think that 6th has been hard on all assault based armies. I can't imagine playing my 'Nids again until we get a new codex. I was going to start a Blood Angel army but I think that I'm hold off and see how things shake out for a bit.

I LOVE the idea of loading up Blood Angels with flamer templates and dropping them near the enemy. Overwatch hurts!

[Martel732]

I have actually adapted my army to primarily shoot. Fast predators can drive around corners and such and still fire all weapons at full BS. This advantage can not be underestimated when playing an actual game. I have found that there are too many lists now that simply out HTH the BA since we lost access to init 5. Or at least they cause too much damage when they fight back.

[ElectricPaladin]

I have actually adapted my army to primarily shoot. Fast predators can drive around corners and such and still fire all weapons at full BS. This advantage can not be underestimated when playing an actual game. I have found that there are too many lists now that simply out HTH the BA since we lost access to init 5. Or at least they cause too much damage when they fight back.

I've had plenty of luck with the Space Marines army I designed to shoot - my Exorcists - so much so that I kind of wish that I'd kept those unused bolter marines to make some Blood Angels tac squads... oh well, at least I like the way my Exorcists are turning out!

My new plan is to run all-jump Blood Angels allied to all-mech Sisters of Battle. The list looks kind of like this:

HQ
• Jump Librarian
• Jump Reclusiarch

Elites
• Jump Sanguinary Priest w/Power Weapon

Troops
• 10 Jump Assault Marines (2 Plasma Guns, Power Fist Sergeant)
• 10 Jump Death Company

Fast Attack
• Baal Predator

HQ
• Canoness

Troops
• 10 Battle Sisters (2 Flamers) in a Rhino
• 10 Battle Sisters (2 Meltaguns) in a Rhino

Fast Attack
• 5 Dominion (2 Meltaguns) in a Multi-Melta Immolator

We'll see how it works out. Biggest plusses? Lots of different kinds of threats, Faith rules give me some neat boosts, many objective holders, and I have lots of capacity to hurt enemy vehicles and heavy infantry. Biggest minus? This is an entirely mid- to close-range list. I'll have a lot of trouble when I roll Hammer and Anvil.

[Martel732]

I like the scoring presence in this army a lot, but I agree the lack of range can be a big issue. Especially vs Dark Eldar and their funky fields. The last Dark Eldar I played thought he was going to wipe me up like he did his previous Deathwing opponent, but to his dismay, my BA list contained many autocannons and lascannons. 48" range basically renders the 6" range reduction field useless. My list also had multimelta attacks bikes getting FNP from a priest. They sucked up 4 dark lance shots and only took a single wound :)

In general, I'm not a fan of Marine HQs, especially BA HQs. Even at 2K points, I have a tendency to bring a ghetto libby with jump pack for 125 pts.

[ElectricPaladin]

I like the scoring presence in this army a lot, but I agree the lack of range can be a big issue. Especially vs Dark Eldar and their funky fields. The last Dark Eldar I played thought he was going to wipe me up like he did his previous Deathwing opponent, but to his dismay, my BA list contained many autocannons and lascannons. 48" range basically renders the 6" range reduction field useless. My list also had multimelta attacks bikes getting FNP from a priest. They sucked up 4 dark lance shots and only took a single wound :)

If I decide to fix that problem, I'll probably bring an exorcist or a devastator squad.


In general, I'm not a fan of Marine HQs, especially BA HQs. Even at 2K points, I have a tendency to bring a ghetto libby with jump pack for 125 pts.

I agree. Marines have some weird HQ issues. Librarians are pretty good. Captains are boring. Chaplains/reclusiarchs are extremely niche. Masters of the forge (not a Blood Angels option) are even nicher.

[Angelofblades]

Up until the Chaos codex came out, I was having alot of fun with my revised BA army. At 1850 pts I was running:

Libby in T armor w/ storm bolter and force weapon

Priest w/ PW

10 man tactical w/ Plasma gun, combi plasma - SLC and ML

10 man assault squad
2x melta, PW

2 x Vindicators

Storm Raven
stock

SW allies

Rune Priest

wolf priest
saga of the hunter

6 Wolf guard termies
PF, 3 wolf claws, 1 w/ pw, cyclone ML and storm bolter

10 Grey Hunters
2 PG, Wolf Standard, MoW

Long Fangs
4 Missile launchers

So the WGT w/ cyclone ML joins the Long Fangs, and the rest of the termies are a unit, wolf priest joins the termies and the rune priest joins the grey hunters. Sang pries joins the tactical squad, as does the libby, while the assault squad can either start on the table or usually go into reserve to DOA DS Combat squads behind enemy vehicles and pop them. This has been pretty nasty to alot of the opponent's I've played against. Even with Interceptor, you can only shoot at 1 unit, and most of the time, they're shooting at the big plane, rather than waste shots at a 5 man squad in hopes of getting the melta gun. Let's not forget that we can now throw krak grenades. So it's not simply a single melta shot, but the additional S6 to rear armor.

The boost to large blast ordnance weapons is huge (no more half strength, now full strength under template.) Add to that that BA vindicators are fast, leads to a very deceptive range on those demolisher cannons.

I often have had both psykers roll on the Divination table, just cause, it's so awesome. I've had games where I started the Rune Priest w/ the Long Fangs, so that I could cast the power to ignore cover saves, and have them fire 6 krak missile at a target or split them 3 at 1 target and 3 at another. What's that? Night Fighting? Don't care, dead vehicle.

OR use the BA libby to cast re-roll to hit on a vindicator, because if at first you don't succeed, try try again, or give it a 4+ invul save, I can't tell you how annoying that is to an opponent.

I think one of the biggest boosts the BA codex got was simply access to the Divination psyker tree.
There are times I do miss casting shield of sanguinius or unleash rage (since it affects overwatch fire), but they really don't outweigh my love for the divination tree.

It's by far not the most perfect list, I don't think, but it's the most fun list I've constructed to play.

One of my main gripes from the FAQ however is how they screwed over Astaroth. I was excited to use him come 6th ed, the model had a unique power weapon, so it wasn't AP2, but it wasn't unwieldy, and it had some really great rules and so did he. That's part of my issue, is that alot of our hard hitting special characters got boned with their weapons, Date now I1, Astaroth now I1, Mephiston now AP3, Sanguinius now AP 3 also. There's a real lack of good AP2 weaponry that swings on a good Initiative score. Maybe regular Tycho, while I like, but still isn't better than a terminator libby. The change to Fearless, Rending (AP2 against armor pen) and close combat makes Seth look good too, but that divination librarian is still too good to give up.

[Martel732]

I hear you, Angelofblades. I have been forced to switch over to a heavy shooting list with the BA. I don't own any allies, but I was thinking vanilla dex to get null zone, rifleman dread, thunderfire, and storm talon.

I think lack of AP2 on initiative is the theme of 6th ed, to make terminators more scary. They succeeded. The only BA HQs I even consider are libby, reclusiarch, and Tycho. That's pretty much it. I guess Dante if I want to get scoring sanguinary guards. I'm not sure how good that really is though.

[Tynskel]

Sanguinary Guard, like Terminators are tough as nails because of the 2+ armor. They cut through just about anything, too. Even though Dante is I1 when using his Axe, he's still a beast, with 6 attack (7 with banner) on the charge, at str 5 (6 w/ priest). 2+ armor and 4+ invul keep him rocking. Not to mention, his abilities are pretty rockin'.

[Martel732]

Right, I've had to deal with a lot of 2+ armor. However plasma and melta just make the sanguinary guard look silly. You can deep strike with precision, but there is that awkward turn where you can't charge for everything to go to hell :) The BA just seem very underpowered after the changes to furious charge. Its not 2nd edition bad, I just feel at a disadvantage against practically every other codex at the moment.

[Learn2Eel]

Blood Angels do fine IMO, the problem is it is very tempting to just sinks loads of points into close combat units with them as it was their specialty in 5th. They still put out truck loads of firepower, and having fast Vindicators, Razorbacks and Rhinos is crazy. Baal Predators are really good either when Outflanking or Infiltrating. If you take Assault Squads without jump packs, they get a very hefty discount on whatever dedicated transport they take - essentially giving you a free upgraded gun for a Razorback. Not to mention you still get all the good stuff Loyalists get like Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, TH/SS Terminators, etc. You also get one of the best fliers in the game, the Storm Raven. Don't forget their Devastators get cheaper weapons than standard Space Marines! Blood Angels aren't behind the other codices at all.

[ElectricPaladin]

The problem is, I got into Blood Angels because I wanted a heroic close combat faction to complement my EXTREMELY FREAKING SHOOTY (and extremely freaking lame) Tau. All the other close combat options - Tyranids, Orks - are pretty much villainous and unsympathetic, and neither do their models do much for me. For the Blood Angels to remain interesting for me, I need to find a way to play them this way. I've already got an army that is primarily shooty but can pull decent close combat out of it's pocket in a pinch - my Exorcists Space Marines.

In other words whine whine b*tch whine whine... :p

But seriously, it's disappointing that my Blood Angels can't fill the niche that first drew me to them. Perhaps the new codex will help? Perhaps playing them with shooty allies will help? The take-home lesson I've gotten from all the long-time gamers I know is to never - but never - actually give up a model I might ever be remotely interested in, so it's not like I'm going to sell off my army. We'll see how it goes.

[Angelofblades]

I sympathize with you EP. I started my Flesh Tearer army ages ago because I wanted that fearsome CC army. But 6th Ed is highly favors shooting armies over close combat. I feel that Sanguinary Guard are still over costed for what they do. They should be WS5 and GW missed an opportunity by not giving 2handed weapons any special or additional properties.

There is one thing I am highly debating, and that's BA biker squads with a sang priest on a bike. T5 with FnP and a constant cover save isn't that bad on top of the Hammer of Wrath attacks

[Martel732]

I sympathize with you EP. I started my Flesh Tearer army ages ago because I wanted that fearsome CC army. But 6th Ed is highly favors shooting armies over close combat. I feel that Sanguinary Guard are still over costed for what they do. They should be WS5 and GW missed an opportunity by not giving 2handed weapons any special or additional properties.

There is one thing I am highly debating, and that's BA biker squads with a sang priest on a bike. T5 with FnP and a constant cover save isn't that bad on top of the Hammer of Wrath attacks

The math for BA bikers looks very good. With the new dangerous terrain rules, not even that is really an consideration! The attack bikes are the best, I think, but the regular ones can have some utility too I think.

The BA are still better CC than anything the Tau can bring, but they are not longer elite. Still heroic, but not elite.

[ElectricPaladin]

You know, it's kind of interesting that GW seems to have this bias against hand to hand combat. All the "good" - or at least "they have a point of view and don't just want to kill sh*t" - factions are shooty. Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Tau, Eldar, Sisters of Battle... all at least semi-sympathetic. The more hand-to-hand focused factions - Tyranids and Orks, and to a lesser extent Chaos Marines and Chaos Daemons - are more or less monsters (I'm leaving Dark Eldar out because I really have no idea how they play). And as the game gets shootier in general, the more hand-to-hand oriented Space Marine codices get shootier, too.

I wonder if the next Blood Angels and Black Templars codices will give these armies an edge in hand-to-hand, or push them back towards shootiness.

[Martel732]

For BA to get an edge back, they'd have to give the whole army rage or something like that. I mean, the math of BA assault marines vs grey hunters is very depressing, much less dedicated hand to hand troops. The BA won't get a dex for a very long time, so I just have to deal with what I have. Which means I shoot a lot and act like a bully in HTH, not a real fighter.

[ElectricPaladin]

For BA to get an edge back, they'd have to give the whole army rage or something like that...

They'd have a few options - some way of getting even +1 to their Initiative, for example - but I agree that they need some kind of significant across-the-board change to make them work as a close combat army. My strategy of adding a shooty secondary army might work, or it might not. We'll see.

[DWest]

What I would like to see is something like updating Red Thirst to grant Hammer of Wrath if the unit if the unit also has the Furious Assault USR- This would give BA some of their "we survive assaults by striking first" back, and/or some kind of Overwhelming Assault: Based on the idea that the Blood Angels are all about the massive, overwhelming rush into close combat, they could suppress the opponent's ability to Overwatch, say if they use their Jump Packs in the assault phase. Instead of trying to play the Blood Angels as a regular chapter + a few unique things, move them into a niche and make them good enough to succeed in that niche.

[Tynskel]

Has anyone realized that maaaaaybe they were not playing Blood Angels the way they were intended?

The Blood Angels, if you take them as a company strike force, are fantastic.
Some Terminators, Sternguard. Some Tactical Marines, and an Assault Squad. Take a Baal, Stormraven, and a dread. Sprinkle in a sanguinary priest.

They are quite an effective force in the battle company style.

You shouldn't be using Assault Marines against Grey Hunters. That's the job for Sanguinary Guard or Vanguard Veterans. They will slaughter those squads. Blood Angels still have the advantage of some of the hardest hitting cc units in the game.

300 The Hunter Killers
–Vanguard Veterans, Jump Packs, Sgt. w/ Storm Shield and Blade Encarmine Axe. 2 w/ Storm Shields and Power Lances. 1 w/ Dual Lightning Claws. 1 w/ Power Maul and Storm Shield.

That squad will slaughter just about anything upon deep strike. The Sgt can go toe to toe with just about any squad leader/character.

If you are redonkulous, you take Sanguinor, and that Sgt. has the attacks, stamina, and capability of a character.

[ElectricPaladin]

Has anyone realized that maaaaaybe they were not playing Blood Angels the way they were intended?

The Blood Angels, if you take them as a company strike force, are fantastic.
Some Terminators, Sternguard. Some Tactical Marines, and an Assault Squad. Take a Baal, Stormraven, and a dread. Sprinkle in a sanguinary priest.

They are quite an effective force in the battle company style.

But I waaannna! :D

But seriously, yes, it has occurred to me that I'm not playing Blood Angels right. Branching out into Sisters is part of the solution, because I can easily use the Sisters of Battle as a stand-in for the elements of the Blood Angels that I have an unnatural and unhelpful antipathy for.

[Tynskel]

hahahah. I can see that.
I still like feel no pain Tactical Squads. They are entertaining.

and I especially like that Tycho is a 'Sternguard' Captain.

[Learn2Eel]

Don't take my comment to mean I think Blood Angels can't do assaults, they still can, just that in 6th you need lots of shooting to be competitive and Blood Angels still do it about as well as other Loyalists. :)

Well using Grey Hunters as an example is always going to end with the Grey Hunters winning, they are the best value for points Troops in the entire game (arguably). For similar costs, they will usually beat out another Troops choice. A fairer comparison would be Chaos Space Marines with the extra combat weapon IMO.

[Tynskel]

It just means to me that, as usual, you shouldn't be using troops to kill troops. That's what Elites are for! You use the troops to aide the elites.

[Aegwymourn]

It just means to me that, as usual, you shouldn't be using troops to kill troops. That's what Elites are for! You use the troops to aide the elites.

I agree. Troops are there to provide scoring bodies and a backbone for your army. All of the super killy stuff comes from the rest of the force org.

[ElectricPaladin]

This is what scares me about my current Blood Angels list: no Elites. The body of the list's boots are an assault squad, a death company, two battle sisters squads, and a dominion squad (there are also some rhinos, an immolator, and a Baal predator in there).

The question is: despite being technically a Troops choice, is death company hard enough to take on serious opposition, or do I need to scare up the points for some sanguinary guard or something?

[Tynskel]

You have death co. Those are elites for all intents and purposes.

[Martel732]

In fact, I've seen too many BA players loading up on elite toys and not having *enough* troops. My 1500 pt BA list actually has a single priest for elites. I personally have had more success loading up with fast attack and heavy support in 6th edition. No DC either. Not a very fluffy list at all, I know.

[Brandoncbaker]

And if you wanted to play BA shooty.why not? We have the second most effective Dev squad,just slightly behind SWs

[Martel732]

And if you wanted to play BA shooty.why not? We have the second most effective Dev squad,just slightly behind SWs

Because BA devastators are still not as effective as BA fast vehicle weapon platforms.

[Martel732]

This is what scares me about my current Blood Angels list: no Elites. The body of the list's boots are an assault squad, a death company, two battle sisters squads, and a dominion squad (there are also some rhinos, an immolator, and a Baal predator in there).

The question is: despite being technically a Troops choice, is death company hard enough to take on serious opposition, or do I need to scare up the points for some sanguinary guard or something?

This is not necessarily bad. Although I tend to prefer sanguinary guards to DC, but they are both expensive units that people will try to shoot off the table. Elites are a good way in any army to buy a fancy army that loses on points at the end of the scenario.

[Tynskel]

hmmmm...
I have always been of the philosophy of Space Marines are a minimalistic force. You should have the least amount of bodies possibly on the field. If you do that, and learn to conserve your 'mans', then you can crush your enemies.

So, for me, it isn't until I get to about 1850 points before I even think about adding a 3rd space marine troops squad (whether scouts, tactical, or assault). I play heavy with the toys. :)

[Martel732]

hmmmm...
I have always been of the philosophy of Space Marines are a minimalistic force. You should have the least amount of bodies possibly on the field. If you do that, and learn to conserve your 'mans', then you can crush your enemies.

So, for me, it isn't until I get to about 1850 points before I even think about adding a 3rd space marine troops squad (whether scouts, tactical, or assault). I play heavy with the toys. :)

I'm the reverse. I feel that is important to get as many bodies as the field as reasonably possible. That means not overpaying for a unit unless you *really* need it. There are not marine elite troops that can't be torrented to death pretty effectively. Nothing is safe in 6th edition.

[Defenestratus]

So I think that I'm going to retire the blood angels for a long while.

They just aren't "fun" anymore to play for me. My lists always seem to be about 50% as effective as they used to be and I'm sick of stuff just not working anymore.

I don't want to spam razorbacks, I don't want to chop all my meltaguns off and put on plasma guns, I don't want to have to run tac squads (YUCK YUCK YUCK SPEW TAC SQUADS) and I really just... well... I'm sick of them. They stink in this edition in the numerous games I've played with them. I feel like I'm committing a sin against humanity when I have to start jump troops on the board because of some stupid a-hole rule that GW put in the rulebook.

I'm pretty upset about it actually if you couldn't tell.

[ElectricPaladin]

So I think that I'm going to retire the blood angels for a long while.

They just aren't "fun" anymore to play for me. My lists always seem to be about 50% as effective as they used to be and I'm sick of stuff just not working anymore.

I don't want to spam razorbacks, I don't want to chop all my meltaguns off and put on plasma guns, I don't want to have to run tac squads (YUCK YUCK YUCK SPEW TAC SQUADS) and I really just... well... I'm sick of them. They stink in this edition in the numerous games I've played with them. I feel like I'm committing a sin against humanity when I have to start jump troops on the board because of some stupid a-hole rule that GW put in the rulebook.

I'm pretty upset about it actually if you couldn't tell.

I think the problem is that you and I fell in love with Blood Angels that GW might never have intended to exist. We wanted to play heroic tragic berserker maniacs who fell from the sky and rushed into melee. They intended the Blood Angels to be Space Marines... except that they relied a little more heavily on assault squads and their vehicles were faster.

Here's hoping GW decides to go more in our direction with their new codex.

[Tynskel]

Yeah. I think one needs to read the fluff for Blood Angels. They use the codex astartes... They just like being in your face.

You know, if you just took a couple of scout squads, your jump pack units could deep strike. That is very much how the blood angels operate. They don't jump in blindly...

[Martel732]

So I think that I'm going to retire the blood angels for a long while.

They just aren't "fun" anymore to play for me. My lists always seem to be about 50% as effective as they used to be and I'm sick of stuff just not working anymore.

I don't want to spam razorbacks, I don't want to chop all my meltaguns off and put on plasma guns, I don't want to have to run tac squads (YUCK YUCK YUCK SPEW TAC SQUADS) and I really just... well... I'm sick of them. They stink in this edition in the numerous games I've played with them. I feel like I'm committing a sin against humanity when I have to start jump troops on the board because of some stupid a-hole rule that GW put in the rulebook.

I'm pretty upset about it actually if you couldn't tell.

GW did you a favor because, in general, I think deep striking assault troops and reserves of any type are rubbish. Put your assault guys all on the table and deep strike things that shoot like fragnoughts and sternguard.

Why lose the melta? Melta is still king in my book, baby. Plasma is for tacticals and relentless troops. Plasma doesn't instagib T4, and it bounces off AV 13 and AV 14. All hail the king, baby: melta.

[Shaun]

I have had more wins than losses in 6th. Played against GK, Inq, Nids, Cronair, Chaos, DA, Ultras, Spacewolves, TauDar. Play the objective often heavy power powerbuilds still have a weakness just find it. Fast armies can still do well, not everytime but often enough. I can honestly say that BA are still a fun competitive army. I used to play all DOA and I still refuse to use tacs but I am having a great time with fliers and tanks. Yeah things changed but its not all bad

[Martel732]

I have had more wins than losses in 6th. Played against GK, Inq, Nids, Cronair, Chaos, DA, Ultras, Spacewolves, TauDar. Play the objective often heavy power powerbuilds still have a weakness just find it. Fast armies can still do well, not everytime but often enough. I can honestly say that BA are still a fun competitive army. I used to play all DOA and I still refuse to use tacs but I am having a great time with fliers and tanks. Yeah things changed but its not all bad

BA are fun, but not *good*. At least not good against opponents who really comprehend what we lost in 6th edition. Maybe we can fall far enough off the radar to fool people, but there's just too many lists we can't win reliably in HTH against.

[Tynskel]

The blood angels are incredibly maneuverable shooty marines. Tactical Squad with Sanguinary Priest and a Captain with Frag Cannon Dread using Skies of blood is SCARY. The amount of firepower coming out of that is redonkulous.

One needs to just think about the flexibility that maneuvering of firepower is, and Blood Angels has that. The CC units are there to keep your guns firing.

[Wolfshade]

Certainly, one of their strengths in 6ths now that CC can be perilous has been the short range fire fights. Plus with the changes to power weapons sanguinary guards 2+ is quite good

[Martel732]

The blood angels are incredibly maneuverable shooty marines. Tactical Squad with Sanguinary Priest and a Captain with Frag Cannon Dread using Skies of blood is SCARY. The amount of firepower coming out of that is redonkulous.

One needs to just think about the flexibility that maneuvering of firepower is, and Blood Angels has that. The CC units are there to keep your guns firing.

Is this our identity? Or is it hordes of jumpers? I think the reality is that we can field either, but they are both insufficiently effective to really *compete* with quality 6th edition codices.

[Tynskel]

Blood Angels follow codex except for Death Company and Sanguinary Guard.
We have the advantage of being able to jump outta our transports, or deep strike our land raiders.

All it says in the codex is that Blood Angels prefer to wear a jump pack, if they can. That means in a standard company, Assault Squads are usually at full strength. i.e., 20 marines out of 100 will have jump packs.



Here's a funny thing: I bought my first jump pack unit about a year ago. I have been playing Blood Angels since Space Hulk days. They have always been a codex chapter. I play them as a vicious close quarters army. Dakka Dakka, charge.

[Wolfshade]

It took me ages to get my first assault squad, I was put off my having to get a full metal squad from a while ago.

I also find it strange people using them as a mobile fire base so armed with bolters and plasma/meltas and hopping them around but not assaulting with them. I can see the point but it confuses me. I wonder if a tactical squad in a rhino would be better in that role.

[plawolf]

It took me ages to get my first assault squad, I was put off my having to get a full metal squad from a while ago.

I also find it strange people using them as a mobile fire base so armed with bolters and plasma/meltas and hopping them around but not assaulting with them. I can see the point but it confuses me. I wonder if a tactical squad in a rhino would be better in that role.

The main reason people use assault squads as mobile shooting units is because you can take twin plasma or twin melta with them, the Serg can also take a plasma pistol or inferus pistol if you so wish. That gives you double or triple the special weapons of a standard tactical squad with much better mobility. Throw in a priest and that unit is pretty survivable as well.

If you really have your heart set on a rhino, you can strip the jump packs off your assault squad and get a 35pts discount on the rhino. With the tac squad starting 10pts cheaper and being 2pts cheaper per extra guy, that is still a net saving of 15pts per 10 men squad, and you get the benefit of twin special weapons.

However, something to note is that there is no option to swop the bolt pistol and chainsword of the regular assault squad troopers for bolters.

The trade off for the cheaper rhinos and extra special weapons is that the rest of the squad only have bolt pistols, so their range and firepower is greatly reduced compared to a tac squad.

If your opponent is running regular assault squads with twin special weapons and bolters on everyone else, he is cheating. You can either choose the extra special weapon or have better shooting from everyone else, you cannot have both.

[Wolfshade]

No they're not.
I can understand why they do it, but in my mind assault marines need to assault and not shoot ;)

[Martel732]

No they're not.
I can understand why they do it, but in my mind assault marines need to assault and not shoot ;)

I think that everyone is having trouble in 6th with BA in general. They just don't do anything quite well enough to be a good codex. We pay for these flimsy ICs to give our guys FNP and Furious charge, both of which were nerfed vis a vis HTH combat. The only thing that's *really* good left is the fast vehicles, but vehicles got nerfed too. I'm open to suggestions for all comers lists.

[Wolfshade]

I won my first game against my brother-in-law in 6th with BAs the other weekend, it was great 2nd time since 4th that I've beaten him...

Since Rage has become +2A my Death Company has come back now they can't be lead around the board. Plus the DC dread is always fun with Blood Talons.

[Tynskel]

I think that everyone is having trouble in 6th with BA in general. They just don't do anything quite well enough to be a good codex. We pay for these flimsy ICs to give our guys FNP and Furious charge, both of which were nerfed vis a vis HTH combat. The only thing that's *really* good left is the fast vehicles, but vehicles got nerfed too. I'm open to suggestions for all comers lists.

Terminators + Sanguinary Priest.
Tactical Squad in a stormraven + Frag Cannon Furioso. Give the Stormraven a locator beacon.
pick whatever commander you want.
Take an assault squad with flamers.
Take a Vanguard Veterans squad with Storm Shields and Lances. Give the Sgt a Blade Encarmine Axe.
Take a Vindicator.
Take a Baal.

You have a good force there.

[Defenestratus]

Terminators + Sanguinary Priest.
Tactical Squad in a stormraven + Frag Cannon Furioso. Give the Stormraven a locator beacon.
pick whatever commander you want.
Take an assault squad with flamers.
Take a Vanguard Veterans squad with Storm Shields and Lances. Give the Sgt a Blade Encarmine Axe.
Take a Vindicator.
Take a Baal.

You have a good force there.

Is that all we can do with BA?

I got into Blood Angels for one reason and one reason only - I needed a break from my Eldar and I actually liked the jump pack marine model.

One squad of them - meh - not what I want my BA to be.

[Tynskel]

there are 2 squads: Vanguard and Assault.
That's 15 Assault marines.

To me, that's a lot. You could always drop the Terminators for Sanguinary Guard and take Dante to make them troops (give the Sanguinary Priest a Jump Pack). Bam, now you are at 22.


Around my gaming group, I am known for taking very very few marines. Can't be 'movie marines' if there are a lot of them. Haven't you read 'Army of One'?
http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/17p14/

[Defenestratus]

there are 2 squads: Vanguard and Assault.
That's 15 Assault marines.

To me, that's a lot. You could always drop the Terminators for Sanguinary Guard and take Dante to make them troops (give the Sanguinary Priest a Jump Pack). Bam, now you are at 22.

If I only have 20 dudes with jump packs I feel that I've failed in my list building.

[Tynskel]

Sorry to repeat post, but you posted before my edit!

Around my gaming group, I am known for taking very very few marines. Can't be 'movie marines' if there are a lot of them. Haven't you read 'Army of One'?
http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/17p14/


You could always swap the tactical squad for 2 Assault Squads. 1 in the Stormraven. That adds another 10.

However, you starting to lose the Marine sparkle Lord powers...

http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/17p70/

[Wolfshade]

Play with more points then you can get a 30 man DC with jump packs ;)

[Tynskel]

Play with less points and take 30 Jump Pack DC!

Best way to go: Astorath leading 15 JP DC, Lemartes leading another 15 DC. Sprinkle in some weapons. 1500 points.

Good Luck Bad Guys!

[plawolf]

No they're not.
I can understand why they do it, but in my mind assault marines need to assault and not shoot ;)

Well, you can only really blame the codex for that, if your assault squad had the option of getting a special CC weapon per 5 guys instead of a special shooting weapon, I dare say using the squad for assault would be a hell of a lot more appealing than it is right now.

It really makes little sense to not allow your dedicated assault specialists to have access to power weapons but let them have more plasma guns and melta guns than your dedicated shooty tactical shooting units.

GW's solution to this - take away the assault squad's ability to have plasma guns or meltas and still don't allow them power weapons.

Looks like the old trend continues and just be glad you are not playing Dark Angels, because the only way I can see any Dark Angels player fielding assault marines is if he was taking pity on his opponent and wanted to give the guy a sporting chance.

[Martel732]

Well for comparison, my 2000 pt BA list has exactly 12 models with jump packs. Of course, it also has 5 bikers, 3 attack bikers, and a sanguinary on a bike. I find that BA ASM just lack the punch they did in 5th and so spamming them is a good way to get slaughtered by another army that's better in HTH.

The BA codex is full of ways to make an elite list that doesn't have enough bodies in it, and the most obvious solution, hordes of ASM, has new problems in 6th.

[The Dave]

I completely agree with the OP on the current state of the Blood Angels, and I'd like to post my opinion on the army I've lovingly played for the last 17 years non-stop.

Like others, I was drawn to Blood Angels as the assault-oriented good guy army they have always been advertised to be. Fluff-wise they have always relished the opportunity to get into hand-to-hand combat, and they do prefer using jumping assault squads to break enemy lines and strongholds. It's obvious Games Workshop has no clue how to represent this in the rules because they have never operated remotely the same since their inception. Second Edition gave them the Furioso (without two Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons) a really mean Death Company, and a few cool Special Characters, but otherwise they still used core vanilla Marine units. Third Edition gave them Baal Predators, dual Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons to the Furioso, Sanguinary High Priests, and revised rules that allowed Veterans to take Furious Charge at 3 pts per model. Unfortunately most people saw the vehicle rules as a way to make Blood Angels a nasty "Rhino Rush" army, not a fluffy assault-oriented army. It also over-focused on how to make Death Company numerous and scary so they were usually taken in droves (two Chaplains plus their automatic D3+3 models, not including what you took from each squad in your army), but they still didn't hit the nail on the head. It was still vanilla Marines plus stuff. In 4th Edition we got the PDF-dex and it's not even worth mentioning. And in 2010 we got the 5th Edition codex. Overall, I like the book a lot. We got a ton of new models, rules, and options, and definitely justified the reason to have an actual separate book from normal Space Marines. Typical lists I'd make would include jumping Assault Squads with attached Power Weapon/Jump Pack Sanguinary Priests, as well as Crusader-mounted Assault Squads with attached Chaplains, Sang Priests, and Librarians. It was a beautiful combination and it lead to some sweet assaults and some really great games. I saw players in my store(s) and online on a multitude of forums using and posting fluffy lists in addition to the razorback spam garbage (which yes, I've run many times myself). Still, I think the 5th Edition codex was a great leap forward in representing how Blood Angels can and should be an army that favors assault (and still follows Index Astartes). Really, it is a fantastic codex.

But then 6th Edition happened.

Now, let me say first that overall I'm very happy with 6th Edition. There are of course things I don't like (challenges, fortifications, allies, and flyers) but overall I think it's written a lot better than any other rules edition so far, and it also has a lot of really nice small updates to 5th throughout the book. However I believe it negatively affected Blood Angels amongst others and drastically changed how the army works. Let me explain my point of view.

I think examining Sanguinary Priests lends a solid view into the major issue I have. I think Sang Priests are (or were) my favorite unit from the 5th Edition codex. Granting Furious Charge to all units within 6” of him was a really sweet way to give the army back the strength (no pun intended) it needed in assault. Throwing in the ability to grant Feel no Pain to all of those units as well as opposed to something like just the unit he joined was icing on the cake. Over the course of 5th Edition alone, I played 2+ games per week with Blood Angels (aside from playing with my Nids and other armies) through all two years of its existence in 5th, totaling over 200 games with the newest version of the Sons of Sanguinius. I’m not the greatest player in the world but I’d like to think I learned the ins and outs of this codex fairly well at least against the players in my local community. Going from granting a 4+ Feel no Pain most of the time to a 5+ even more of the time is NOT better. Losing the +1 Initiative on the charge was also a huge blow. A Sanguinary Priest WITHOUT upgrades already costs 50 points, and in the context of 5th Edition, he was worth every single point. However, now his buffs are 41.7% less effective and he still costs the same amount of points. In all my games with the current codex, being able to strike at Initiative 5 with Jump Pack Assault Squads really made them worth taking, and in my opinion felt really flavorful to the army. It was the one edge they had when fighting other solid troops units like Grey Hunters. On a side note, I think Blood Angels should get +1 WS across the board instead of Furious Charge off of a Sang Priest, but that’s another subject for another day. :)

Here’s a quick list of other gripes I have with what 6th Edition did to Blood Angels:
-Chaplains and Reclusiarchs are only AP4 in combat
-Dante and Astorath are Initiative 1 in combat
-Mephiston’s Force Sword is only AP3 in combat
-Plasma is ever prevalent now and thus Sanguinary Guard are even more useless than they were before (they don’t have WS5, 3 attacks base, Initiative 5, etc for 40+ points per model)
-Also, the newest trend in Imperial Armour is to NOT give Blood Angels access to the sweeeeet toys that EVERY other chapter gets)

(PS: WHY DON’T WE GET LAND SPEEDER STORMS?????)

I’ve been having conversations with a guy at my LGS who frequents Feast of Blades and other touranments, plays Blood Angels, and thinks they’re the bees knees. He tells me that now they have to be used differently, that they’re really shooty, that they are a combined-arms list now, etc. etc. That’s great, and I’m glad he’s having fun with the army in the way he wants to. I even agree with those points, but what I don’t agree with is the fact that the way I had fun with them is now obsolete and it’s the main way Blood Angels should operate in my opinion.

If I wanted to play a really shooty Space Marine army, I would have played Space Marines (Thunderfire Cannon, Lysander + Sternguard, etc etc), Space Wolves (Long Fangs, Gray Hunters, etc), Templars (dual Cyclone Missiles in 5-man Terminator Squads, 5-man Crusade Squads with Missile Launchers, and the cheapest Land Speeder Typhoons in the Imperium), or Dark Angels Ravenwing with the Banner of Devastation. That’s not what I bought Blood Angels for. Don’t get me wrong, I REALLY REALLY enjoy the excellent shooting units we do have (Baal Predators, Attack Bike units, Typhoon Speeder units, Land Raider Crusaders, Storm Ravens, Sternguard, etc) but that’s not the thing Blood Angels are known for.

The first word aside from Sanguinius that comes to my mind when someone says “Blood Angels” is Assault. That’s what Blood Angels prefer, that’s what they’re good at. It’s what defines them as a distinctly different Chapter…as far as the Inquisition is concerned…..

[Wolfshade]

A very good post The Dave.

[ElectricPaladin]

I concur. It's good to be agreed with!

[The Dave]

A very good post The Dave.


I concur. It's good to be agreed with!

Thanks guys! I do care a lot about the army. I've stuck with them through thick and thin, and I really want to see a dex that lasts longer than 2 years and appropriately represents the reason the army exists in the first place. Sure, they can have good shooty units, and fine, make them good at other things too. But if they're not at least "good" in assault (not OP, but good), then the codex needs to be scrapped and re-written. It should be a priority in my opinion.

[Martel732]

Thanks guys! I do care a lot about the army. I've stuck with them through thick and thin, and I really want to see a dex that lasts longer than 2 years and appropriately represents the reason the army exists in the first place. Sure, they can have good shooty units, and fine, make them good at other things too. But if they're not at least "good" in assault (not OP, but good), then the codex needs to be scrapped and re-written. It should be a priority in my opinion.

Your long post, which was very good, btw, bring up and interesting point. There is a an experienced player on Warseer that insists the BA must be an assault army and doesn't function at all as a combined arms army. I think this supports my theory that there are no good answers for BA in 6th edition. The standard ASM rush has been significantly nerfed and can not be relied upon against many lists in 6th edition. The poster on Warseer points out that our fast vehicles cost more, so our weapon count is lower than a standard marine army. This is also true. But it is also demonstrably true that we lose CC fights we used to win and take more damage in the CC fights we do win. This is not a winning proposition at all.

We need to be realistic here. The current BA codex is not going anywhere for a long, long time. Many people who play BA don't even understand the problems even after they lose game after game. Others play in meta environments where they are still successful. There is not going to be an outcry for a new codex, and if there were, GW will just ignore it.

I myself just massacred a Vanilla list, but he had many sub-optimal unit selections and configurations. But against good lists in the hands of good players, the BA are just a poor army now. To me, BA are definitely in the bottom 5, maybe bottom 3. The only two lists I can really see as weaker right now are Black Templars and Sisters. Can anyone tell me in all seriousness that the BA list is better than any other lists right now?

Also, don't forget that while the BA are assault heavy in the fluff, they are still hamstrung by codex astartes. Space Wolves and Chaos marines can get CC weapons on their regular schmucks. And still have boltguns. Not us.

[Wolfshade]

I think really the speed of the army is still a large boon, and indeed can be used to successfully out-flank or separate an enemy unit in its entirety.

[Tynskel]

Bah. That's a bunch of whining junk.

When you think of Blood Angels: you think Close Combat, not assault. I have played BA since Angels of Death. It has always been about getting in really close with all of your units. Assaulting when necessary. Death Company are a good example: relentless with attacks.

Sanguinary Guard are fine and worth their points: Flying Terminators.

I do like the WS+1... If I recall correctly, that's what Sanguinary Priests used to bring in the Angels of Death Codex.

Feel No Pain was way over the top.
Blood Angels have always been a codex chapter. If you play them as a codex chapter, they are quite satisfying. If you want to play an Assault Based army: That would be Ravenguard. They have always been known for their lightning strikes into assault. Blood Angels have always been known for their fury, and in your face attitude.


A great combo is a dreadnought, or frag cannon furioso with tactical squad + priest, in a stormraven with a locator beacon. Skies of Blood and dakka the living daylights out of your opponent.

[Wolfshade]

I just love the DC dread with Blood Talons just keep on killing more and more and more.
Hmm 20 strong brood smash smash smash, no brood :( all I wanted was a hug...

[Martel732]

Bah. That's a bunch of whining junk.

When you think of Blood Angels: you think Close Combat, not assault. I have played BA since Angels of Death. It has always been about getting in really close with all of your units. Assaulting when necessary. Death Company are a good example: relentless with attacks.

Sanguinary Guard are fine and worth their points: Flying Terminators.

I do like the WS+1... If I recall correctly, that's what Sanguinary Priests used to bring in the Angels of Death Codex.

Feel No Pain was way over the top.
Blood Angels have always been a codex chapter. If you play them as a codex chapter, they are quite satisfying. If you want to play an Assault Based army: That would be Ravenguard. They have always been known for their lightning strikes into assault. Blood Angels have always been known for their fury, and in your face attitude.


A great combo is a dreadnought, or frag cannon furioso with tactical squad + priest, in a stormraven with a locator beacon. Skies of Blood and dakka the living daylights out of your opponent.

I can lay out the mathhammer if need be, but I prefer not to. I play in a heavy WAAC environment. Lots of Necrons, GK, IG, and Space Wolves. The BA just don't cut it against them in 6th on a week in/week out basis.

[Tynskel]

bah.
You don't have to math hammer anything. The Blood Angels codex is fine.
You just can't win with spam. Which is good.

[Martel732]

bah.
You don't have to math hammer anything. The Blood Angels codex is fine.
You just can't win with spam. Which is good.

The situation is much more complicated than that. I agree that the current BA codex encourages variety in lists, but that's because there's nothing worth spamming. From a competitive standpoint, that's bad. The BA in 6th edition is a fun, but bottom tier codex. And there's nothing really fundamentally wrong with that. Look how long DA labored under a terrible codex. We are the new DA.

[Tynskel]

The situation is much more complicated than that. I agree that the current BA codex encourages variety in lists, but that's because there's nothing worth spamming. From a competitive standpoint, that's bad. The BA in 6th edition is a fun, but bottom tier codex. And there's nothing really fundamentally wrong with that. Look how long DA labored under a terrible codex. We are the new DA.

Bwahahahaha! That is simply not the case. I'm telling you, 1 plan with terrain, 2 make a codex list. You will kick the living daylights outta your opponents.

I have been playing blood angels for nearly 20 years. This isn't hard.

[Martel732]

Bwahahahaha! That is simply not the case. I'm telling you, 1 plan with terrain, 2 make a codex list. You will kick the living daylights outta your opponents.

I have been playing blood angels for nearly 20 years. This isn't hard.

I've been playing them just as long. We peaked in 3rd edition, as those rules were quite over the top. You're making unsupported statements. I'm pretty confident I can massacre the BA pretty consistently with any of the top lists in 6th edition.

[Tynskel]

I am pretty confident that is a statement that is wrong, not to mention, everything you are saying is hearsay. Mathhammer is usually a joke, because it is taking a non-linear function and simplifying it down to x vs y, in a situation that doesn't exist. How to do math hammer correctly is to make a list that isn't spammed and play 10 games against an opponent. Then change the initial conditions, repeat. Over and over.

Make a codex list, don't spam a single unit. I am confident you will wipe the table of any opponent, if you know how to use the units. If you have been spamming, I am not surprised that you lose to those armies. Spam lists are easy to defeat, mostly because the players suck.

Use terrain to your advantage. I have played against crazy spammed space wolf lists for a long time now, and I tear through them.



Furthermore, 'peaking' at 3rd Edition. No, Blood Angels didn't 'peak' at 3rd. They had cheese, if that's your definition of 'peaking' then, oi. No wonder you are losing, you cannot win unless you have your cheese. Go to the store, buy some brie. Then bring that with you to the game. You'll start winning again.

[ElectricPaladin]

Tynskel, I think that there are two different kinds of complaints about the current Blood Angels situation.

I'm sure that some BA players are upset because they feel that the Blood Angels are now underpowered. However, I don't think that's where most of the posts on this thread are coming from. I think that most of the posters here are upset that the Blood Angels seem to have lost the advantages that made them distinct and interesting. We are the players who love the Blood Angels as a fast moving, in your face, assault-based army. Yes, we could play them as a codex chapter and succeed... but that's not what we want to do.

It isn't that we want to spam, Tynskel. We want to field a variety of units that fit within the version of Blood Angels that we love. I, for example, don't want to field Astorath and spam death company and am upset that Overwatch and the limitations placed on Reserves makes that less than ideal. I want to run an ordinary jump librarian, backed up by a variety of jump units, from death company to vanguard veterans to sanguinary guard. Someone who loves filling the field with fast vehicles might want to put down a few razorbacks and a vindicator or two backed up by a land raider or a stormraven carrying a scary dreadnought.

The problem isn't that we want to mix spam and cheese. Our desires are purely kosher. We want a delicious variety of Blood Angels units that allow the army to express its strengths in a balanced and distinctive way.

[Tynskel]

and the blood angels can do that, and do it quite well. They still have Feel No Pain and Furious charge. The army is now balanced. Oh no! Point n' Click win is gone. So what? They are still extremely satisfying. I have no sympathy for those that spammed units. They take away from so many aspects of the game.

[Martel732]

and the blood angels can do that, and do it quite well. They still have Feel No Pain and Furious charge. The army is now balanced. Oh no! Point n' Click win is gone. So what? They are still extremely satisfying. I have no sympathy for those that spammed units. They take away from so many aspects of the game.

No, they demonstrably can not do it well. Furious charge is practically useless now and feel no pain took a 33% hit against most HTH attacks. This means that BA ASM squads straight up lose many fights they used to win and *should* be able to win. Now the list of armies that are prohibitively difficult for BA to handle in HTH is too long, imo. I don't know who you are playing against, but good players with the better codicies should be handing you defeats well over 50% of time. In some cases, 75%. THAT is not a balanced codex.

Furthermore, the BA were never point and click in 5th either. There are many builds from other codicies that gave the BA plenty of problems. Those same builds have gotten better and we have gotten worse. Have you stopped to even look at the Chaos Marines? They are better BA than the actual BA. Also, going back to what Electricpaladin referenced, the BA have lost their distinctions because too many other meqs are better BA than the BA.

And for the record, I ran various lists in 5th that didn't bring more than three copies of any given unit. Few of those lists are competitive now. Mathhammer is not a joke, because at some point, you'll have to start rolling dice and you opponent rolls them back at you. There are now specific rules for terrain density and you can't count on terrain now more than dice. I could borrow my buddy's space wolves and probably beat your BA 75% of the time. Yes, they are that good. If you don't see it, you are not looking closely enough.

This statement makes me think that the 6th edition meta hasn't fully sunk in with your group:

"Around my gaming group, I am known for taking very very few marines. Can't be 'movie marines' if there are a lot of them. Haven't you read 'Army of One'?"

6th edition, even more so than any previous edition, is about body count. If you field such a list where I play, you will be shot off the table. The punishment that shooting lists can shell out in 6th is truly impressive.

I also question the quality of your opponents because most terrain is only a 5++ now. In a game that's all about torrent of wounds, I don't see how this is making a huge difference, especially when you are getting your 3+ against most wounds anyway. Again, this sounds like a 5th edition mentality. It almost sounds like you are using terrain as a crutch as you accuse others of using spamming as a crutch. In 6th, it's entirely possible to have very little cover available.

"Spam lists are easy to defeat, mostly because the players suck."

This is a crap assumption. They could also be crack players exploiting GW's unit cost scheme. Do you know how many Vendettas are flying around where I play? Are they being spammed because the players suck, or because the Vendetta is crazy good? Good players with exploitable spammable uints will crush the BA the majority of the time. Such units include grey hunters. There's no advantage to playing a "codex list" if there's nothing in the codex with a good efficacy/point ratio.

[Martel732]

"The problem isn't that we want to mix spam and cheese. Our desires are purely kosher. We want a delicious variety of Blood Angels units that allow the army to express its strengths in a balanced and distinctive way."

We have variety. It's just a variety of uncompetitive lists. Not being able to win the HTH combats (or getting phyrric victories) kills the BA fluff wise. We have to resort to.... I don't know what. We can try to shoot, but we'll always be outgunned by most other marine lists. BTW, the not being able to win the HTH combats is where the mathhammer comes in, regardless of claims to the contrary.

[Tynskel]

no, you need to learn how to play.

Did you try to take as few marines? Take 12 marines in 1500.
Talk to me when you win your games, because you will. They force you to think about how you fight. You won't be spending your time playing Mathhammer, and you'll actually starting thinking tactics and strategy.

Mathhammer does not work. x vs y doesn't work because you are being dumb if you fight that way. It should be a+b+c+d vs y. i.e., you lose. Hence, a non-linear problem.

Yeah, I am going to say your players suck. Period. Anyone who is exploiting a KNOWN rules exploit is a bad player. Why would you play with anyone that does that kind of crap?

[Martel732]

no, you need to learn how to play.

Did you try to take as few marines? Take 12 marines in 1500.
Talk to me when you win your games, because you will. They force you to think about how you fight. You won't be spending your time playing Mathhammer, and you'll actually starting thinking tactics and strategy.

Mathhammer does not work. x vs y doesn't work because you are being dumb if you fight that way. It should be a+b+c+d vs y. i.e., you lose. Hence, a non-linear problem.

Yeah, I am going to say your players suck. Period. Anyone who is exploiting a KNOWN rules exploit is a bad player. Why would you play with anyone that does that kind of crap?

You are clearly not listening to anything I say. I shall continue, because others, such as electricpaladin, might get something out of this. Taking 12 marines at 1500 is suicide in 6th. They will be targeted and destroyed, leaving you unable to score objectives. At least they will be targeted and destroyed by good players. I know this, because most of the games I win are won this way. I didn't say I never won. It's just a struggle in tournaments and leagues full of space wolves and necrons and IG.

So Vendettas a are rules exploit? Last time I checked, they were just crazy underpriced. How about grey hunters? Exploit? Or just way too good for their price? It's not the players fault that GW let everyone and their brother ally with IG. I don't have a choice of whom to play in leagues and tournaments. You should know this as an experienced 40K player.

And mathhammer demonstrably works once HTH combats are initiated. The state of the game previous to that, no, but the actual combat is all about the mathhammer.

[Tynskel]

As I said, who in their right mind uses math hammer. You do not charge 1 unit with 1 unit. That's dumb, and I can understand why you are having problems.

Second. Play with 12 marines. Your unwillingness to even try, just because it 'sounds bad' on paper, does not mean it doesn't work. I use it! It is called: protecting your assets. Of course your opponents know you only have 12 marines, you showed them your list, right? Oh my, target the 12 marines and game over. Seriously, you need to learn how to protect your marines. 1) reserve 12 marines. 2) use cover.

What kind of tournament organizer allows someone to bring cheese lists? 1st rule of tournament: make it fun. It is not fun if someone just brings rules exploits. One that I wouldn't want to go to. 'Ard Boyz is gone, man!

Again, to state that 'blood angels' were at their peak in 3rd edition just tells me that you like to be cheese ball, but really don't understand how to play.

[DWest]

Would you be willing to produce a battle report including:
-your list with 12 Marines
-your opponent's list
-a photograph of the terrain layout used for the battle

I would be very interested to see how you manage to make such a thing work.

[ElectricPaladin]

Would you be willing to produce a battle report including:
-your list with 12 Marines
-your opponent's list
-a photograph of the terrain layout used for the battle

I would be very interested to see how you manage to make such a thing work.

Seconded!

[DarkLink]

Tynskel's right. Mathhammer only applies to the shooting and assault phases, but completely ignores the movement phase. The movement phase is where 90% of all your tactics and strategies will take place. Shooting and assault do have a little in the way of target priority, challenges, and gambling on charges, but they're mostly just carrying out the consequences of the decisions you made in the movement phase.

[DarkLink]

Actually, I have an example. A while ago, I played against a friend who plays pure Thousand Sons. He had roughly 30 TKSons, a beefy Daemon Prince, and a few miscellaneous units. I had 10 Paladins and some Strike Squads.

I moved to just outside of his 30" range (6" move+24" bolters), in a bit of a denied flank so his back units were another turn out of range. He flew his Daemon Prince up, and moved his TKSons forward, but was out of range as I mentioned. Next turn, I ignored the Daemon Prince, and unloaded with a bunch of psycannons and Str 5 storm bolters into his TKSons, killing most of them. I finished them off next turn, and had the game not kept going to turn 7 and had his Daemon Prince not been absolutely absurd, I would have won by default since he was out of scoring units.

Had I simply lined up across from him and traded shots, I would have taken plenty of Strike Squad casualties from his AP3 bolters. But because I concentrated my whole army one one TKSons unit at a time, I simply destroyed the one unit in range with no reprisal, and repeated that until I killed all of his TKSons without them doing anything except absorb fire.

Of course, his stupid Daemon Prince was on fire and the game just wouldn't end until he had a chance for a comeback, but the point is maneuverability, strategy, and tactics matter.

[Wolfshade]

Statistics are a bit like bikinis - it shows a lot but not the whole thing
- Scott Johnson

[Martel732]

I never said that movement didn't matter. I never said tactics didn't matter. I never said that strategy didn't matter. However, if two players of roughly equal skill and roughly equal tactics play, and dice don't do wacky things, the player with the more potent codex will win more than 50% of the matches. With roughly equal skill, mathhammer comes back into it. And mathhammer can also make up for small differences in tactics by simply overwhelming with numbers. Not usually large differences though.

It really sounds like people do not have experience with competitive lists. You might call it cheesy, or exploitative, but others call it competitive. A competitive IG list will almost certainly be able to cripple your 12 marine list without even stepping out of their deployment zone. I know this, because I played a 2K game where an IG list made me take 92 armor saves in one turn! Yes, we stopped and counted it! ""

I'm finding it somewhat offensive that because I like to gauge absolute codex potentials that I'm automatically a cheese ball. BA were at their potency peak in 3rd edition. They could deliver the most punishment for the points in that edition than any other. Call it cheese, I call it mathematical reality.

[Tynskel]

I never said that movement didn't matter. I never said tactics didn't matter. I never said that strategy didn't matter. However, if two players of roughly equal skill and roughly equal tactics play, and dice don't do wacky things, the player with the more potent codex will win more than 50% of the matches. With roughly equal skill, mathhammer comes back into it. And mathhammer can also make up for small differences in tactics by simply overwhelming with numbers. Not usually large differences though.

It really sounds like people do not have experience with competitive lists. You might call it cheesy, or exploitative, but others call it competitive. A competitive IG list will almost certainly be able to cripple your 12 marine list without even stepping out of their deployment zone. I know this, because I played a 2K game where an IG list made me take 92 armor saves in one turn! Yes, we stopped and counted it! ""

I'm finding it somewhat offensive that because I like to gauge absolute codex potentials that I'm automatically a cheese ball. BA were at their potency peak in 3rd edition. They could deliver the most punishment for the points in that edition than any other. Call it cheese, I call it mathematical reality.

Bwhahaha! Hey next time, use some Line of Sight blocking terrain. It must be fun to not play with terrain.

Again, why defend the 'mathematical' reality.
It is called refuse to play against crap.

[ElectricPaladin]

Bwhahaha! Hey next time, use some Line of Sight blocking terrain. It must be fun to not play with terrain.

Again, why defend the 'mathematical' reality.
It is called refuse to play against crap.

Tynskel, man... you're really starting to overdo it here.

Look, people are telling you "I have had trouble playing the Blood Angels the way I want to play them and still achieve enough wins to have a good time." Now, there's a time and a place for arguments about mathammer - and perhaps some of the points and counterpoints in this argument are that place and time - but you have stopped being helpful. Your responses have turned into

a) "You can't play them the way you want to play them - suck it"
b) "If you can't win with the Blood Angels as they are now you must be bad at this game"
c) "If you are discontented with the Blood Angels as they are, you must be a cheating, cheese-loving WAAC loser."

THIS IS NOT HELPFUL.

It's entirely valid to be frustrated that the shift in the game has resulted in the qualities that drew one to a faction no longer allow it to be competitive! Now, the ultimate response might be "wait and see and hope that the new codex helps," but that doesn't mean that it's helpful to insult and demean the people who are frustrated!

[Martel732]

Bwhahaha! Hey next time, use some Line of Sight blocking terrain. It must be fun to not play with terrain.

Again, why defend the 'mathematical' reality.
It is called refuse to play against crap.

So it's exactly as I thought. You are using terrain as a crutch. Have you read the rules for 6th edition terrain placement? Sight blocking terrain may not be available, or the terrain density might be too sparse in your deployment zone. The only thing you can count on for sure is giving some of your stuff a 5++ cover some of the time. Also note that terrain in general means nothing to things like triple heldrake builds. Or for you 12 marine list, a single heldrake sounds suffcient.

I can see where your view in this game is quite slanted if you just simply refuse to play opponents with competitive lists.

Electricpaladin:

Back to the task at hand. I have tried jumper lists, hybrid mech, and full mech lists. Unfortunately, I don't have quite enough games in totality to make absolute conclusions but here we go:

1) Jumpers: overwhelms shooty foes not prepared for mass FNP meqs. Also short circuits many necron lists. Unfortunately, the number of lists that can triumph (either outright or pyhrrically) over BA HTH has grown considerably. Space wolves, tyranids, some CSM, some GK, chaos demons will all be probematic to say the least. Also, a few lucky battle cannon shots from the IG gut these kinds of lists badly, as they allow no armor or FNP rolls. Basically this list doesn't participate in the shooting phase, which has many other unfortunate implications. No transport denial, for example.

2) Mech: the go to BA list from 5th in my opinion. But now that we can't assault out of rhinos or razors under any circumstances, this badly gimps this build. This build still provides a ton of protection from heldrakes and other template/blast death, but makes assault very difficult. Fast vehicles provide good firepower though, even while running away. You can also utilize land raiders for some assault power and dump FNP terminators or DC all over your enemy. Also, the hull point system hurts this build by making rhinos and razors far less durable.

3) Mech hybrid: Combines strengths and weakness from both. I have had the most success with this, but still less than 50% wins. I usually use a single 10 man ASM with all my ICs in it as a counter assault unit to keep stuff away from the armor. Armor can be used to block los from things like battle cannons. Also, divination can be used to make the single ASM squad quite tough. This list, however, can be overrun by other HTH lists, particularly tyranids. It can also be outshot badly by the IG, but I don't honestly see how to compete against the IG with the BA in 6th.

All these builds would include some combination of quad guns and stormraven for anti-flier, since things like triple heldrake and quintuple vendettas are not unheard of. This obviously doesn't include allies to help shore up BA weaknesses, but I submit than any BA/IG list can be made better with using SW/IG. The SW are simply so much better than the BA at this point its kinda sickening.

[Tynskel]

Dude. If you want to play 'blood angels' the way you 'want to', then you pick up whatever codex that does it and use that. People do that all the time. However, if you want to play Blood Angels in a fun way, then you take 1 of each, and play.

What you don't understand is that Competitive play is dead. GW killed it with ending 'Ard Boyz. People ended it with having tournaments that don't clamp down on exploitive lists.

[Martel732]

Dude. If you want to play 'blood angels' the way you 'want to', then you pick up whatever codex that does it and use that. People do that all the time. However, if you want to play Blood Angels in a fun way, then you take 1 of each, and play.

What you don't understand is that Competitive play is dead. GW killed it with ending 'Ard Boyz. People ended it with having tournaments that don't clamp down on exploitive lists.

It's not dead where I play. GW might have ended 'Ard Boyz, but that doesn't mean local metas stopped doing it. Each tournament is different. Many tournaments in my area are trying to cater to the 'Ard Boyz crowd with few restriction. Besides, restrictions can be hard to hammer out in and of themselves.

Also, GW ending 'Ard Boyz does not give you the right accuse people of not knowing how to play because they are used to a competitive environment. I can assure you its quite the opposite. Doesn't sound like you've ever been subjected to 90+ armor save loving from IG before. It takes *real* tactics and strategy and list building to overcome that kind of dakka. BA could do it in 5th, in 6th, we are having major problems.

Besides, you still haven't done a thing to refute the fact that the BA codex has become mathematically inferior to most codicies now, and that this *is* relevant when skill levels are similar.

[Warpspider89]

You are clearly not listening to anything I say. I shall continue, because others, such as electricpaladin, might get something out of this. Taking 12 marines at 1500 is suicide in 6th. They will be targeted and destroyed, leaving you unable to score objectives. At least they will be targeted and destroyed by good players. I know this, because most of the games I win are won this way. I didn't say I never won. It's just a struggle in tournaments and leagues full of space wolves and necrons and IG.

So Vendettas a are rules exploit? Last time I checked, they were just crazy underpriced. How about grey hunters? Exploit? Or just way too good for their price? It's not the players fault that GW let everyone and their brother ally with IG. I don't have a choice of whom to play in leagues and tournaments. You should know this as an experienced 40K player.

And mathhammer demonstrably works once HTH combats are initiated. The state of the game previous to that, no, but the actual combat is all about the mathhammer.

I agree that 12 marines is too few. I have found that you should have around 60 marines on the battlefield in a 1,500 point game. That is two ten-man assault marine squads and four ten-man tactical squads. Add some sang priests and a libby to add one more aura for that stack and you're good. That way you have lots of scoring units flooding the board with higher than average attacks on the charge & are 1.333x as tough as regular marines most of the time; plus, most will also have 5+ DtW then too!

[Tynskel]

I agree that 12 marines is too few. I have found that you should have around 60 marines on the battlefield in a 1,500 point game. That is two ten-man assault marine squads and four ten-man tactical squads. Add some sang priests and a libby to add one more aura for that stack and you're good. That way you have lots of scoring units flooding the board with higher than average attacks on the charge & are 1.333x as tough as regular marines most of the time; plus, most will also have 5+ DtW then too!

60 Marines?!?!?!? What are you playing, Guard Marines?
As I said before, you just gotta try 12 marines. Once you do, you'll never go back. There's a big satisfying grin on your face when your 12 marines defeat your opponents.


Besides, most boring list ever at 1500: 60 marines and no toys. If you really want to field guys in mass, play infantry guardsmen. Seriously, there's no tactics involved. I stand here. I stand here. I stand here. These other guys, they will run across the board.


I have also been on the receiving side of 90 saves...
I also play bugs. 90 saves is nothing. Try over 120 on a charge.


Again, you are trying to show that mathhammer is relevant. You are not applying the maths correctly. Maths are a tool, and if you use the wrong tool for the job, you get the wrong answer.

I have almost never in the history of warhammer sent a unit by itself to do something. That's asking your boys to just get slaughtered or tar pitted.

[Martel732]

60 Marines?!?!?!? What are you playing, Guard Marines?
As I said before, you just gotta try 12 marines. Once you do, you'll never go back. There's a big satisfying grin on your face when your 12 marines defeat your opponents.


Besides, most boring list ever at 1500: 60 marines and no toys. If you really want to field guys in mass, play infantry guardsmen. Seriously, there's no tactics involved. I stand here. I stand here. I stand here. These other guys, they will run across the board.


I have also been on the receiving side of 90 saves...
I also play bugs. 90 saves is nothing. Try over 120 on a charge.


Again, you are trying to show that mathhammer is relevant. You are not applying the maths correctly. Maths are a tool, and if you use the wrong tool for the job, you get the wrong answer.

I have almost never in the history of warhammer sent a unit by itself to do something. That's asking your boys to just get slaughtered or tar pitted.

A jump marine list at 1500 pts will also likely have 60 marines in it. Or thereabouts. Jump marines lists rely on *not* having toys. It relies on having more meq than your opponent can hande. If you knew anything about BA, you would be familiar with this kind of list.

I don't believe your assertions about your 12 marine list for an instant. One of three things must be true: a) you are simply lying or b) your opponents' lists are terrible or c) you scream and stop until you get the board you want to play on. I'm willing to entertain b, since it sounds like you actively avoid competitive play; however, its likely a combination of b and c. It sounds like you might be the big fish in your little local 40K pond. At any rate, the 12 marine scheme is incredibly foolish and would be extremely vulnerable to being crippled from a scoring stand point. It takes very few tactics to take out 12 marines, even if they have FNP. I know this, because my casualties are always much higher than that in the games I play. Many times there is just no where to run and no where to hide, and many times the wounds are coming through the power armor anyway.

I just had another thought: are you even playing with the missions from the rulebook?

[Tynskel]

LoL!
Hahaha, I don't know anything about jump lists!!!!
bwhahahhahaah

Seriously, you need to try 12 marines. You'll never go back.
60 marine lists are so boring, as I said, all you do is either a) sit on objective, or b) advance toward an objective. Yes, lots of tactics there...

With 12 marines, you become fanatical about protecting your marines, and then using all sorts of tactics and tricks to stomp on your opponent. When I went to 'Ard Boyz, I would bring 2 tactical squads and toys. I got first/second place–why? Table wipe. This is including both prelims and semis. I just could never afford to go to the top tournament. You gotta try using less marines.

Less is more.
And you are being redonkulous. Never play the missions in the book? Bwah?


Simply put. You don't know how to play marines until you only use minimum amount of marines. That goes for any marine list.

And you don't need to lecture me #s of bodies. I have a battle company of Space Marines, and 40 terminators. I have played PLENTY of games with lots of bodies. Booorrring, unless it is Apocalypse.

Nowadays, if I am fielding 60 marines, it is drop pods. Drop Pods, because it makes the game interesting.



Cheese lists are just so boring. I've gone 6 months without losing a game. The one game I lost was because people tailored their lists to defeat me, and then all I had to do was change my list. That's when I stopped using cheese. It was basically just going through the motions. You gotta try different tactics. Bugs for, instance. Try zero guns. You start to learn about what you can and cannot do with every unit. You find all sorts of different tactics when you purposely handicap yourself.

The only way to learn is to force defeat upon yourself. The first time you defeat your opponent with 12 marines, you will finally understand warhammer. Epic-ness. That's what Warhammer is all about. Epic-ness.

[Martel732]

The minimal troop thing is a 5th edition trick. Although it was never a particularly effective one for the BA, the Tau, for example, employed it frequently and simply went for tabling.

I simply do not believe your stories of success in 6th edition using your scheme, unless it is for the reasons I stated above. Your statement about who knows how to play marines is demonstrably false. We have several very good, tournament winning marine players where I play that use a variety of body counts.

BTW, the more you use lol and bwahahahaah, the less credible you seem. At least to me.

[Warpspider89]

60 Marines?!?!?!? What are you playing, Guard Marines?
As I said before, you just gotta try 12 marines. Once you do, you'll never go back. There's a big satisfying grin on your face when your 12 marines defeat your opponents.


Besides, most boring list ever at 1500: 60 marines and no toys. If you really want to field guys in mass, play infantry guardsmen. Seriously, there's no tactics involved. I stand here. I stand here. I stand here. These other guys, they will run across the board.


I have also been on the receiving side of 90 saves...
I also play bugs. 90 saves is nothing. Try over 120 on a charge.


Again, you are trying to show that mathhammer is relevant. You are not applying the maths correctly. Maths are a tool, and if you use the wrong tool for the job, you get the wrong answer.

I have almost never in the history of warhammer sent a unit by itself to do something. That's asking your boys to just get slaughtered or tar pitted.

I play 6th edition 40k. Playing 6th Ed. missions involves capturing a lot of objectives. Troop choices are the only units that are guaranteed to be able to score objectives. If objectives are the primary source of victory points and only troop choices are guaranteed to be able to capture objectives, then taking troop choices is essential to securing necessary victory points. Therefore 6th Ed. requires large numbers of troop choices.

TL;DR - I play 6th Ed 40k the way the rulebook lays it out to be played.

[Tynskel]

I play 6th edition 40k. Playing 6th Ed. missions involves capturing a lot of objectives. Troop choices are the only units that are guaranteed to be able to score objectives. If objectives are the primary source of victory points and only troop choices are guaranteed to be able to capture objectives, then taking troop choices is essential to securing necessary victory points. Therefore 6th Ed. requires large numbers of troop choices.

TL;DR - I play 6th Ed 40k the way the rulebook lays it out to be played.

This is exactly what I am trying to talk about. Close minded, single thought thinking.
Must play to objectives!

No. There are many possibilities to win (aka, getting those objectives). You should make a list that is flexible and makes you think.

This is why lists that are only death company troops can and do win.


If you recall, the majority of 'Ard Boyz games were objectives based... yet I won with my limited troops...

Design army first. Not with objectives/kill points/whatever in mind, but with how does the army work together. Do the units fit together like puzzle pieces?

[Tynskel]

The minimal troop thing is a 5th edition trick. Although it was never a particularly effective one for the BA, the Tau, for example, employed it frequently and simply went for tabling.

I simply do not believe your stories of success in 6th edition using your scheme, unless it is for the reasons I stated above. Your statement about who knows how to play marines is demonstrably false. We have several very good, tournament winning marine players where I play that use a variety of body counts.

BTW, the more you use lol and bwahahahaah, the less credible you seem. At least to me.

Bwahahahahah!
The minimal troop thing has been a trick since 2nd Edition. It is called, conserving your troops.

I have told you, I have used large body counts before. You have not used 12 Marines before.
Try it.

Because you are having trouble, here's a hint. It is almost impossible to shoot 12 marines. Especially in 6th Edition!

Again, it makes me think about your statements about 'peak' blood angels. You really do not understand the game if you think that was the 'peak'. Just because Rhino Rush was cheap and easy, does not mean that it was good. There were ways to break that, and those armies blew chunks once the rush was broken. That is not a 'peak'. That is called a crutch.

[Martel732]

I play 6th edition 40k. Playing 6th Ed. missions involves capturing a lot of objectives. Troop choices are the only units that are guaranteed to be able to score objectives. If objectives are the primary source of victory points and only troop choices are guaranteed to be able to capture objectives, then taking troop choices is essential to securing necessary victory points. Therefore 6th Ed. requires large numbers of troop choices.

TL;DR - I play 6th Ed 40k the way the rulebook lays it out to be played.

The only other plan in 6th is to table people. I think that's kind of a poor plan given how many bodies people are taking for the exact reasons you state.

I think Tynskel's just trolling at this point, because his posts are complete nonsense. He offers no specifics other than "12 marines" without elaborating on how this is supposed to work in 6th or even 5th edition. He continually makes bad assumptions, like the unlimited availability of LOS blocking terrain. 12 marines are in no way impossible to shoot in 6th edition with a standard board. Just ignore him.

[Warpspider89]

This is exactly what I am trying to talk about. Close minded, single thought thinking.
Must play to objectives!

No. There are many possibilities to win (aka, getting those objectives). You should make a list that is flexible and makes you think.

This is why lists that are only death company troops can and do win.


If you recall, the majority of 'Ard Boyz games were objectives based... yet I won with my limited troops...

Design army first. Not with objectives/kill points/whatever in mind, but with how does the army work together. Do the units fit together like puzzle pieces?

It would be illogical to attempt to design an army that is made to "work together" without considering the goal that that army is intended to accomplish since they would not have anything to work together towards without specific goal in mind.

[Martel732]

The only other plan is tabling your opponent. I don't know why he just doesn't say it. I guess one could try for first blood and warlord and then deny all objectives, but this seems silly.

This also completely begs the question that even if the "12 marine" thing worked, the other meq lists could likely do it better anyway. It does not address the problems of BA in 6th edition.

Okay I guess he did mention table wipe in one of his rambling posts. So the plan is to take minimal troops and go for table wipes with BA? That's a Tau tactic from 5th edition.

[Warpspider89]

Stealing the secondaries while denying is more of an Eldar strategy anyways, not a marine strategy, and it only works well on some missions.

[Martel732]

That's because the Eldar have some putrid troops for the 6th edition environment. They need a codex pretty badly. I mean the guardian jetbikes are good, but they cost mass real $$.

[Warpspider89]

Same goes for Wraithguard... but we are getting off topic haha.

If you can take good troops, which blood angels can, in an objective heavy environment where troops are what score, then for goodness sakes take troops!

[Tynskel]

The only other plan in 6th is to table people. I think that's kind of a poor plan given how many bodies people are taking for the exact reasons you state.

I think Tynskel's just trolling at this point, because his posts are complete nonsense. He offers no specifics other than "12 marines" without elaborating on how this is supposed to work in 6th or even 5th edition. He continually makes bad assumptions, like the unlimited availability of LOS blocking terrain. 12 marines are in no way impossible to shoot in 6th edition with a standard board. Just ignore him.

uh...
you know
you can bring your own LoS blocking terrain... that moves...


Again, this pointing to the fact that your unwillingness to think outside the box is why you fail at using Blood Angels. Commander Dante is the most brilliant strategist in the Galaxy in 40k. I suggest read about his battles. You'll note that he changes tactics all the time.

What I find even more hilarious is the assumption of denial, divide n' conquer, speed are 'Eldar' tactics. No, they are not. They are just tactics. Space Marines will do whatever it takes to win.

I love this!
Using least 'X' is like 'Y'! Good ones guys. That's a great argument for not trying a unique tactic.



And, no. Designing your force should be only about how they work together. The objectives change so much in 40k, that you cannot rely on 'playing to the object' in list design. You don't even have control of how many objectives or where they are on the board. So, designing your army with objectives in mind is silly.

[Warpspider89]

Landraiders can be badass like that lol

[Bartali]

And, no. Designing your force should be only about how they work together. The objectives change so much in 40k, that you cannot rely on 'playing to the object' in list design. You don't even have control of how many objectives or where they are on the board. So, designing your army with objectives in mind is silly.

Not really, it's how you win games.

Disregarding all of the fluff and other baggage that comes with 40k, it's quite a simple game. In five out of six games, you win by having more scoring and/or denial units in the right places than your opponent at the end of the game with variable game length.

So, generally, you want lots of good scoring and/or denial units that are durable and mobile, backed up with the ability to kill your opponents scoring/denial units.

BA do all of those quite well

[Tynskel]

Not really, it's how you win games.

Disregarding all of the fluff and other baggage that comes with 40k, it's quite a simple game. In five out of six games, you win by having more scoring and/or denial units in the right places than your opponent at the end of the game with variable game length.

So, generally, you want lots of good scoring and/or denial units that are durable and mobile, backed up with the ability to kill your opponents scoring/denial units.

BA do all of those quite well


However, as demonstrated on this thread, taking lots of troops is stupid for blood angels. They do not have the staying power and firepower that other armies' troops have. However, BA Elites, HQ, HvSupport, and Fast Attack are all excellent (and far better than many armies). It is better to design your force with that in mind.

[Warpspider89]

I disagree Tynskel. I don't think that has been proven at all. After all, as FNP marines they are more durable than most.

[Martel732]

"However, BA Elites, HQ, HvSupport, and Fast Attack are all excellent (and far better than many armies)"

Demonstrably false. Ironically, demonstrably false by the very mathhammer you hate so much.

[Tynskel]

"However, BA Elites, HQ, HvSupport, and Fast Attack are all excellent (and far better than many armies)"

Demonstrably false. Ironically, demonstrably false by the very mathhammer you hate so much.


bwahahaha. You are really being funny.
What are you talking about?
The tanks cost 20-30 points more, and then can move 12" and fire. How's that for mathhammers, oh wait, I forgot, you don't apply your maths correctly, because you do not account for the non-linearities.

Again. You need to try the 12 Marine Regimen. Come back after you have tried it.
The only way to truly test your hypothesis is to actually build the list and use it multiple times. It is called taking an average, standard dev, and applying beta testing.

[Tynskel]

I disagree Tynskel. I don't think that has been proven at all. After all, as FNP marines they are more durable than most.

Durable does not = deadly.

Blood Angels troops are good for claiming. They have never been good at anything else. Those the relied on them in previous editions should have seen the Initiative Nerf coming. It was quite obvious, because GW never intended for assault marines to be used they way they were in 5th Edition.

[DWest]

Again, post your list, and post your battle report. Until that happens, you are spouting hypotheticals at best, trolling at worst.

[Martel732]

bwahahaha. You are really being funny.
What are you talking about?
The tanks cost 20-30 points more, and then can move 12" and fire. How's that for mathhammers, oh wait, I forgot, you don't apply your maths correctly, because you do not account for the non-linearities.

Again. You need to try the 12 Marine Regimen. Come back after you have tried it.
The only way to truly test your hypothesis is to actually build the list and use it multiple times. It is called taking an average, standard dev, and applying beta testing.

What's really funny is that you assume I have never fielded exactly what you advocate. I have 13 marine lists from 5th edition, and they don't translate well. For one thing, there's this thing called a heldrake, and they sometimes come in threes. And standard BA metal bawkses got a lot more vulnerable in 6th due to hull points. There's simply no where to hide anymore. Unless, of course, you kick and scream until you get the table you want.

The miracle minimal troops scheme is not working so well in 6th. I've crushed Tau players still trying to do it in 6th. I'd already tried this several times. I know you're going to say I'm doing something wrong, but I'm simply more inclined to believe Bartali due to empirical evidence. But jumpers have their own problems in 6th, including the nerf you describe. But BA lack the firepower and unit efficiency to table consistently in 6th. I'm happy for you if get to play against lists that throw themselves on their sword for you. It's not flying where I play.

I might also add that minimal troop armies were not slam dunks in 5th edition, either. I both lost using them and pounded them plenty in 5th edition.

[Warpspider89]

bwahahaha. You are really being funny.
What are you talking about?
The tanks cost 20-30 points more, and then can move 12" and fire. How's that for mathhammers, oh wait, I forgot, you don't apply your maths correctly, because you do not account for the non-linearities.

Again. You need to try the 12 Marine Regimen. Come back after you have tried it.
The only way to truly test your hypothesis is to actually build the list and use it multiple times. It is called taking an average, standard dev, and applying beta testing.

This may come as a surprise but any vehicle that has PotMS, which includes many Astartes vehicles, can move the full twelve inches and fire. That is not something special for Blood Angels. The extra points only provide an extra six inches of flat out speed thanks to the Fast rule.

[Warpspider89]

Durable does not = deadly.

Blood Angels troops are good for claiming. They have never been good at anything else. Those the relied on them in previous editions should have seen the Initiative Nerf coming. It was quite obvious, because GW never intended for assault marines to be used they way they were in 5th Edition.

Your previous comment was not just about their deadliness. You claimed that Blood Angels lack firepower and staying power. The former may be the case in comparison to some armies but the later is hardly the case, aside from maybe a couple of exceptions they have the hardiest troop choices, with the auras on, for their point cost.

[Martel732]

The problem is that you are bringing a 50 pt IC, likely with a 25 pt jump pack or 35 pt bike for the privilege of the aura you speak of. This puts you into the territory where you need those 5++ rolls to come through, or you are actually making your army *less* durable because of reduced body count. This wasn't such an issue with 4++ rolls. Additionally, in 5th, this aura also gave a significant buff to CC assaults, and now it doesn't Sorry, STR 5 from STR 4 just doesn't cut as a "buff" for meqs. Note that the changes to furious charge means nothing for Orks, since it was the strength bump they were looking for, since they are getting it on so many more models and they were probably going last anyway even with +1 init. There's that damn mathhammer again; Orks have more models and different stat lines than marines, meaning that the rules changes affect them differently. But I'm sure there's some tactic to make it all better. Because math doesn't matter at all. Clearly.

[Martel732]

Some people are a believer in the fast vehicles being worth it; I'm one of them. Fast is actually pretty nasty; it allows two shots at full BS while moving 12" above and beyond PotMS. But that doesn't change how all vehicles became more fragile in 6th, which is the one of the main problems with mech BA in 6th edition.

[Tynskel]

Your previous comment was not just about their deadliness. You claimed that Blood Angels lack firepower and staying power. The former may be the case in comparison to some armies but the later is hardly the case, aside from maybe a couple of exceptions they have the hardiest troop choices, with the auras on, for their point cost.

I was talking about troops.

[Tynskel]

This may come as a surprise but any vehicle that has PotMS, which includes many Astartes vehicles, can move the full twelve inches and fire. That is not something special for Blood Angels. The extra points only provide an extra six inches of flat out speed thanks to the Fast rule.

Uh, you need to review what has Power of the Machine Spirit: Land Raiders, Stormravens. Done.

[Tynskel]

What's really funny is that you assume I have never fielded exactly what you advocate. I have 13 marine lists from 5th edition, and they don't translate well. For one thing, there's this thing called a heldrake, and they sometimes come in threes. And standard BA metal bawkses got a lot more vulnerable in 6th due to hull points. There's simply no where to hide anymore. Unless, of course, you kick and scream until you get the table you want.

The miracle minimal troops scheme is not working so well in 6th. I've crushed Tau players still trying to do it in 6th. I'd already tried this several times. I know you're going to say I'm doing something wrong, but I'm simply more inclined to believe Bartali due to empirical evidence. But jumpers have their own problems in 6th, including the nerf you describe. But BA lack the firepower and unit efficiency to table consistently in 6th. I'm happy for you if get to play against lists that throw themselves on their sword for you. It's not flying where I play.

I might also add that minimal troop armies were not slam dunks in 5th edition, either. I both lost using them and pounded them plenty in 5th edition.

oh my! A helldrake, 3 helldrakes whatever shall I do.
Seriously, there are plenty of ways to deal with the helldrakes. 12 Marine lists are worth trying. You 'say' you have tried to use them. No, try them again. There are plenty of ways to protect 12 marines. Reserves, transports, cover, blocking LoS, etc. Yeah, and you keep whining about terrain: I bring my terrain with me.

Oh my! Blood Angels boxes got hit... uh so did everyone else's boxes... your point? Blood Angels Boxes are still better.

[Martel732]

This is getting pointless. This isn't helping anyone else decide what to do about BA in 6th edition. I say that you are making baseless assertions for schemes they will get you massacred in 6th edition. So I guess its just left up to the other members to see if the minimal troop thing is going to work for them or not. Of course, if they report failure, you can always fall back on they aren't good enough.

Blood Angels tanks being better is still a matter of some debate. They have fewer HP per point spent on them and no additional defenses. I don't know how you can just say this stuff without qualifying it or explaining why its true.

[Tynskel]

This is getting pointless. This isn't helping anyone else decide what to do about BA in 6th edition. I say that you are making baseless assertions for schemes they will get you massacred in 6th edition. So I guess its just left up to the other members to see if the minimal troop thing is going to work for them or not. Of course, if they report failure, you can always fall back on they aren't good enough.

Blood Angels tanks being better is still a matter of some debate. They have fewer HP per point spent on them and no additional defenses. I don't know how you can just say this stuff without qualifying it or explaining why its true.

Blood Angels tanks cost more per hull point, barely. I am so glad that you can count. However, AGAIN, you discount the value of speed and terrain.

I am not saying that you should only use 12 Marine lists. What I am saying is that you should practice with 12 marine lists. Find out how you can squeeze for every single marine. You do not know your army inside out and around until you learn exactly what 12 marines can do. They win games. You just have to try and use your head.

Pointless? You are the one that is not willing to open your mind to trying different tactics. You expect the game edition to change, yet keep the same tactics?
That's nuts.

There are plenty of posts on BoLS where people have used 'unconventional' lists and kick butt. The reason why, is because they know exactly how their army is really played. They know how to combine units that "don't look useful on paper" and make them into a power house.

[Warpspider89]

Uh, you need to review what has Power of the Machine Spirit: Land Raiders, Stormravens. Done.

I was mistaken as to the rules of Fast vehicles. My apologies.

[Warpspider89]

The problem is that you are bringing a 50 pt IC, likely with a 25 pt jump pack or 35 pt bike for the privilege of the aura you speak of. This puts you into the territory where you need those 5++ rolls to come through, or you are actually making your army *less* durable because of reduced body count. This wasn't such an issue with 4++ rolls. Additionally, in 5th, this aura also gave a significant buff to CC assaults, and now it doesn't Sorry, STR 5 from STR 4 just doesn't cut as a "buff" for meqs. Note that the changes to furious charge means nothing for Orks, since it was the strength bump they were looking for, since they are getting it on so many more models and they were probably going last anyway even with +1 init. There's that damn mathhammer again; Orks have more models and different stat lines than marines, meaning that the rules changes affect them differently. But I'm sure there's some tactic to make it all better. Because math doesn't matter at all. Clearly.

A note on the aura. A 50 pt model provides an aura that can easily affect a gun line with as many as 40 marines. The cost in that situation, ignoring the value of that model itself with it's above sergent stat bar, breaks down to 1.25 points/model for a 5+ secondary "save" that can almost always be taken.

Further, if you look at it from a points saved perspective, then it is still highly valuable. If FNP saves 3 marines, which is an average number from a TAC squad that has suffered 9 unsaved wounds, then you have saved 16x3 points from death! That is a 48 point return! Given that the aura from a single 50 point model can provide many more than 3 saved units, the return is pretty much always worth the expense. Each terminator saved is 40 points and so on for a relatively minor expense.

Further, while +1 STR isn't amazing, that it can affect so many units is significant.

Example:

10 assault marines charge without FC. They'll swing about 30 times. Against other marines they'll be hitting half the time so they cause 15 hits. They will wound half the time at equal S to T, so that is 7.5 wounds. 1/3 wounds will be saved, so thats maybe 2.4 dead.

10 assault marines charge with FC. They'll swing about 30 times. Against other marines they'll be hitting half the time so they cause 15 hits. They will wound 2/3 times, so that is 10 wounds. 1/3 wounds will be saved, so thats maybe 3.3 dead.

It isn't huge, but it is still advantageous. Given that the same aura can affect many units at once with many models in each unit, the stacking of gain causes it to become significant.

[Warpspider89]

Some people are a believer in the fast vehicles being worth it; I'm one of them. Fast is actually pretty nasty; it allows two shots at full BS while moving 12" above and beyond PotMS. But that doesn't change how all vehicles became more fragile in 6th, which is the one of the main problems with mech BA in 6th edition.

I was wrong in my understanding of Fast vehicles. I didn't realize how dangerous that makes things like the vanilla pred! I am much more impressed now with blood angel vehicles.

[Martel732]

I was wrong in my understanding of Fast vehicles. I didn't realize how dangerous that makes things like the vanilla pred! I am much more impressed now with blood angel vehicles.

Auto/las preds are really good for BA. They'd be better if we could bring triple las for the same price as CSM, but we can't. 45 pts is too much for that upgrade. The issue is that they still die to three glances. At least compared to Baals and such, they can keep their distance from things like Necron warriors.

No matter how we build BA lists, we're going to be down bodies/hulls compared to other meq lists, especially the new DA codex. This means we have fewer wounds/HP to give up. The new emphasis on shooting makes this a really bad situation and its playing out in the games this way as well.

[Tynskel]

Auto/las preds are really good for BA. They'd be better if we could bring triple las for the same price as CSM, but we can't. 45 pts is too much for that upgrade. The issue is that they still die to three glances. At least compared to Baals and such, they can keep their distance from things like Necron warriors.

No matter how we build BA lists, we're going to be down bodies/hulls compared to other meq lists, especially the new DA codex. This means we have fewer wounds/HP to give up. The new emphasis on shooting makes this a really bad situation and its playing out in the games this way as well.

Again, this is ignoring the fact that the vehicles are fast. This means it is easier to 1) position for effect, and 2) position for cover.
A tank that is shooting a target is also a tank that can be shot at. That's always been the case. However, if you limit the lanes of fire, you can prevent the damage. Blood Angels tanks offer these advantages, easily. You should be moving, on average, more than 6" a turn. Sure that prevents a gun from firing, however, there isn't always terrain to block LoS (or grant cover), hence using your own boxes to do this. If you are using vehicles to block/cover, that means a sponson gun is usually not firing at a target, anyhow, which means is of no consequence if you are moving over 6".

These are some of the numerous reasons why Blood Angels are fabulous, and you need to think outside the box. Speed is Everything in Warhammer. (why do you think Eldar have always done well? Oh no, don't give me bunk about how they haven't. That's a lie. They do well precisely because of maneuverability.)

[Warpspider89]

The whole I can shoot you you can shoot me thing doesn't apply for BA whirlwinds though! Thay are actually pretty awesome, especially with the meta transition to mass infantry, since they can move 12 inches from piece of cover to piece of cover without ever opening themselves up to LOS.

Eldar also win on durability. : ) Wraithwall all the way. I'm actually with you Tynskel on the fact that Blood Angels really can be played a variety of unique ways in 6th that are effective if done well.

[The Dave]

Here are my thoughts on this thread so far, summed up BEAUTIFULLY by ElectricPaladin and Martel732 in these amazingly succinct and eloquent posts:


Tynskel, man... you're really starting to overdo it here.

Look, people are telling you "I have had trouble playing the Blood Angels the way I want to play them and still achieve enough wins to have a good time." Now, there's a time and a place for arguments about mathammer - and perhaps some of the points and counterpoints in this argument are that place and time - but you have stopped being helpful. Your responses have turned into

a) "You can't play them the way you want to play them - suck it"
b) "If you can't win with the Blood Angels as they are now you must be bad at this game"
c) "If you are discontented with the Blood Angels as they are, you must be a cheating, cheese-loving WAAC loser."

THIS IS NOT HELPFUL.

It's entirely valid to be frustrated that the shift in the game has resulted in the qualities that drew one to a faction no longer allow it to be competitive! Now, the ultimate response might be "wait and see and hope that the new codex helps," but that doesn't mean that it's helpful to insult and demean the people who are frustrated!


This is getting pointless. This isn't helping anyone else decide what to do about BA in 6th edition. I say that you are making baseless assertions for schemes they will get you massacred in 6th edition. So I guess its just left up to the other members to see if the minimal troop thing is going to work for them or not. Of course, if they report failure, you can always fall back on they aren't good enough.

Blood Angels tanks being better is still a matter of some debate. They have fewer HP per point spent on them and no additional defenses. I don't know how you can just say this stuff without qualifying it or explaining why its true.

And here are some laughable and memorable quotes from Tynskel that have made my day and reminded me that some people just don't get it, no matter how loud and ultimately uninformed they are. "BWAHAHAHAHA!"


The objectives change so much in 40k, that you cannot rely on 'playing to the object' in list design. You don't even have control of how many objectives or where they are on the board. So, designing your army with objectives in mind is silly.


Dude. If you want to play 'blood angels' the way you 'want to', then you pick up whatever codex that does it and use that. People do that all the time. However, if you want to play Blood Angels in a fun way, then you take 1 of each, and play.


What you don't understand is that Competitive play is dead. GW killed it with ending 'Ard Boyz. People ended it with having tournaments that don't clamp down on exploitive lists.(This one's my favorite, because of how hilariously ridiculous and false it is ahahahaha!)

[Warpspider89]

I respect your effort to lay the smack down but you are not being any Bette than the person you are criticizing by attacking him rather than posting useful comments about how to maximize the utility of Codex: Blood Angels.

Now for an actual comment.

I believe that vanguard vets have a useful purpose in a hybrid BA army that is roughly half footsloggers & jump packers, or half mech and half jump packers, especially at 1.999k & up. It is for one particular strategy. Deep striking units, something BA does best, is dangerous for two main reasons: they can become isolated (and as such easily wiped out) and the majority, except VV, cannot assault out of deep strike anymore so they are subject to being assaulted or being shot apart. Well, it seems to me that there is still a solution 5to make this work. The solution to the first problem is essentially strength in numbers. You can't deep strike a baby force to distract the enemy. You have to go balls deep and deep strike a legitimately massive force that can flank your enemy. Do this by putting that half of the army in reserves an deep stoking them in ASAP. With DOA units being left in reserves shouldn't be a problem. The second problem is solved with VVets. Run them nearly bare bones gear wise, maybe just with a storm shield or two at most. They are a doomed unit most games so why waste too many points tricking then out. All they have to do is exactly what the fluff says they do: show up where most needed (right in front of the deep strike taskforce and then tie up an enemy unit ( or two if you have a good opportunity to multicharge) so that your deepstrike force doesn't get hurt much in your enemies next turn. Then, as long as they but you that one round of time, you'll be able to charge the enemy flank and break them like Eromer did with the riders of Rohan at Helms Deep.

Obviously the rest of your force advances forward gunslinger style spraying bullets & generally being the anvil that your hammer is catching the enemy in between.

[The Dave]

I respect your effort to lay the smack down but you are not being any Bette than the person you are criticizing by attacking him rather than posting useful comments about how to maximize the utility of Codex: Blood Angels.

Lol. See my earlier post before the several pages of shame haha.

[Warpspider89]

The point is that each post should be on topic. I recognize that you have contributed worthwhile information to this tread and it is good of you to do so. Everyone should be contributing to our collective knowledge of the Blood Angels. We cannot, however, let this thread become a pissing match otherwise we might as well just ask the moderators to close the thread. It may have been acceptable, but it wasn't appropriate. None of this pointless back and forth is. Let's talk Blood Angels not personal inadequacy.

Another Blood Angels note,

Codex: Blood Angels is overflowing with Character options. 6th is, in many ways, the Herohammer edition. Can this work to our advantage? Which non-special characters are best suited to take advantage of this? Chaplins/Reclusiarchs are growing on me for this reason because they are durable compared to many
"ordinary" characters in combat thanks to their invuln so they can handle challenges from that dimension, with their power mauls & FC they strike strength 7 on the charge, which can wreck up vehicles, monstrous creatures (who are much more popular now), & T3 heroes, and in an ASM squad they significantly increase the benefit of FC because of the rerolls to hits, which means even more wounds from mass S5 attacks.

[The Dave]

The point is that each post should be on topic. I recognize that you have contributed worthwhile information to this tread and it is good of you to do so. Everyone should be contributing to our collective knowledge of the Blood Angels. We cannot, however, let this thread become a pissing match otherwise we might as well just ask the moderators to close the thread. It may have been acceptable, but it wasn't appropriate. None of this pointless back and forth is. Let's talk Blood Angels not personal inadequacy.

Another Blood Angels note,

Codex: Blood Angels is overflowing with Character options. 6th is, in many ways, the Herohammer edition. Can this work to our advantage? Which non-special characters are best suited to take advantage of this? Chaplins/Reclusiarchs are growing on me for this reason because they are durable compared to many
"ordinary" characters in combat thanks to their invuln so they can handle challenges from that dimension, with their power mauls & FC they strike strength 7 on the charge, which can wreck up vehicles, monstrous creatures (who are much more popular now), & T3 heroes, and in an ASM squad they significantly increase the benefit of FC because of the rerolls to hits, which means even more wounds from mass S5 attacks.

I disagree with you. I don't think 6th is the "Herohammer" edition whatsoever. In fact I think it is largely the opposite. Not only is your flashy HQ choice a warlord point now (and thus you DON'T want him put in a position to be killed quickly), but the game is an objective game 5/6ths of the time, putting the importance on Troops. I agree that there are some BALLS powerful characters out there that are capable of some amazing things, but I can't say that I'm a fan of throwing a victory point away by being super aggressive with HQ's.

As for Chaplains, being only AP4 destroys any offensive capability they might have had at least against mainstream meta (MEQ). I really wish their Power Mauls were AP3. Not 2, but 3. I think our cheap 100pt Librarians can be of some use, but I have not used them enough yet in 6th to make any decisions.

[Warpspider89]

I called it herohammer based on the current challenge rules. Any character, from the lowly IG sergent upwards, can be involved in some epic challenges. Blood Angels are SO character heavy in the HQ & Elite slots that they are well positioned to pump out challenge winners who will NOT give away the Warlord point in close combat, though they might in other Codices, while those characters also buff the squads they are with. I agree that AP4 is a bit painful, but S7 & reroll to hit on the charge is rather beastly. Still, as far as actual HQ characters go, point for point, ofc a Libby with prescience is the best.

[Tynskel]

Here are my thoughts on this thread so far, summed up BEAUTIFULLY by ElectricPaladin and Martel732 in these amazingly succinct and eloquent posts:





And here are some laughable and memorable quotes from Tynskel that have made my day and reminded me that some people just don't get it, no matter how loud and ultimately uninformed they are. "BWAHAHAHAHA!"





(This one's my favorite, because of how hilariously ridiculous and false it is ahahahaha!)

Except that my assertions are not false. It is easy to protect your troops. There are plenty of inexpensive hard hitting HQ/ELITES/FAST/HvS in the Blood Angels list. For a few points more you gain incredibly power units. Their dreadnoughts are incredibly cheap, and death company are very effective units. For example, you don't need them to be redonkulously armed. I usually only use 1 power weapon/10 marines. Lots of bolters. Come on: Lots of Dakka and 4 attacks on the charge. Jump-Shoot-charge/Move-Shoot-Fast Charge. They scythe through most units except the toughest, of which that's what your Dreads are for, which have fleet...


Dude, and Competitive play is soooooo dead. Do you know how many tournaments have been reduced/cut/etc since 'Ard Boyz has gone? There's not even half of the events anymore. Sure there's a handful of big ones, but that's it. Competitive play is dead.


Again, you gotta think out of the box. Stop thinking tacticals and assault marines, and start thinking about what are the powerful units in the game that mesh well together. There are many–many more than most armies–in the Blood Angels that play off each other.

I see so many people complain about their army not working, and then you look at their lists in the next forum section over, and the problem is obvious. Unoriginal, cookie-cutter net lists that the masses use. Cookie Cutter Lists suck. There's a reason that people who have been known as the top players don't use the cookie cutter lists, they come up with the cookie cutter. That's because they thought outside the box...

And that's the point of this thread. Blood Angels are incredibly competitive, but require more thought. And to me, that's fluffy, because there's plenty of stories of blood angels screwing up, in their OWN codex, and there are plenty of stories of the Tactical Genius of their higher command.

[Warpspider89]

I think that the rest of the people on this thread and forum would appreciate your comments more if you shared these combinations and strategies with us more and imply their existence less.

[ElectricPaladin]

Actually, you know what? I think I have an idea of what he's talking about.

Let's look at this 1500 point list:

HQ
• Librarian w/Jump Pack (125)

Elites
• Sanguinary Guard w/2 Infernus Pistols, 1 Power Fist (230)
• Furioso Dreadnought w/Blood Talons, Magna-Grapple (140)

Troops
• 5 Tactical Marines, Sergeant w/Power Weapon (105)
° In a Razorback w/Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Assault Cannon (95)
• 5 Tactical Marines, Sergeant w/Power Weapon (105)
° In a Razorback w/Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Assault Cannon (95)

Fast Attack
• 5 Vanguard Veterans w/4 Power Weapons, 5 Meltabombs (200)
• Baal Predator w/Dozer Blade (120)

Heavy Support (215)
• Stormraven w/Locator Beacon, Multi-Melt, Assault Cannon

Actually, I'm 70 points under... but I think I know what Tysnkel would go for here. Use all the other tools - tons of fast assault cannons, accurate deep strikers that can assault, flying terminators - to kill everything. Then have the razorback tac squads leap out and claim one or two objectives at the last minute. It's like playing Eldar, but red and bloodthirsty.

[The Dave]

I called it herohammer based on the current challenge rules. Any character, from the lowly IG sergent upwards, can be involved in some epic challenges. Blood Angels are SO character heavy in the HQ & Elite slots that they are well positioned to pump out challenge winners who will NOT give away the Warlord point in close combat, though they might in other Codices, while those characters also buff the squads they are with. I agree that AP4 is a bit painful, but S7 & reroll to hit on the charge is rather beastly. Still, as far as actual HQ characters go, point for point, ofc a Libby with prescience is the best.
I see what you're saying. Challenges exist now and most of our "characters" are better than most other "characters" in the grand scheme of things. That's situationally true, except when you come down to things that really matter in a challenge like the big bad HQ's (and thus Warlords). Most of our characters now don't have an edge in combat like we did before. Going at base initiative +1, backed by FnP and +1S was the defining edge to Blood Angels. Coming from experience, the only thing we had in combat that gave us a mild edge was speed and durability because otherwise we're talking about being offensive assault-wise with basic vanilla Marines, and we all know that's not how vanilla Marine lists operate (if they're assaulting with something, it's usually Vanguard Vets, or TH/SS Termies with an attached HQ, etc). Sure, "Look Out Sir!" goes a long way to protecting our HQ's and other characters now but with the inclusion of challenges and the fact that some of our combat-elite characters were dropped to I1, (again, in context with the game-wide nerf to FnP and FC), it is a fact that we are less capable of winning combats that we used to have at least a chance in, if not more.


Except that my assertions are not false. It is easy to protect your troops. There are plenty of inexpensive hard hitting HQ/ELITES/FAST/HvS in the Blood Angels list. For a few points more you gain incredibly power units. Their dreadnoughts are incredibly cheap, and death company are very effective units. For example, you don't need them to be redonkulously armed. I usually only use 1 power weapon/10 marines. Lots of bolters. Come on: Lots of Dakka and 4 attacks on the charge. Jump-Shoot-charge/Move-Shoot-Fast Charge. They scythe through most units except the toughest, of which that's what your Dreads are for, which have fleet...
Only Death Company dreads have fleet, but I'm sure you knew that. Otherwise, yes, Death Company are decent again but you're fooling yourself if you think 365 points for 10 DC with Jump Packs and a single Power Weapon is "inexpensive" and "effective". If one of those dreadnoughts you love so much counter-charged this unit, they're dead. You can't leave combat because you can glance AV 12 with Krak Grenades, but you'll only hit with 7/10, glance with one, and simultaneously lose 2 guys (not 3 because FnP should save you one). No, I think 365 points for a single 10-man unit that only has a 3+ armor and 5+ FnP is a huge waste in any list (unless you're going with a cool fluffy Blood Angels list that is not meant to be maximized in efficiency).


Dude, and Competitive play is soooooo dead. Do you know how many tournaments have been reduced/cut/etc since 'Ard Boyz has gone? There's not even half of the events anymore. Sure there's a handful of big ones, but that's it. Competitive play is dead.
And here's where your ignorance comes into play. Where on earth do you get your anecdotal information from, your local game store? That's a rather uninformed and blatantly false view. Adepticon (which hosts 3-4 different kinds of GT's), the Bay Area Open, NOVA Invitational, Nova Open, Battle for Salvation, Beaky Con, Wargames Con Invitational, Wargames Con Open, Da Boyz, Ghengis/Tacticon, St Valentine's Day Massacre, The Alamo, Bugeater, The Conflict, Comikaze, Necronomicon, and GW's own Throne of Skulls are all ACTIVE and ONGOING GT-Level tournaments (NOT including tens of thousands of local touranments that go on throught the year), several with 150+ player brackets. And then there's the next one which is a NEW GT created by Duke (Chandler) called FEAST OF BLADES and is taking the country by storm! Every state in the country now participates and throws a local tournament on the same day, of which the top two spots are invited to the GT. At the last tournament they had 12 brackets (heats) due to the insanely high volume of participants and at the same time they hosted an open GT as well.

I'm sure you mean well in your awkward (yet often insulting) defense of the book, and we appreciate an opposing view, but your lack of experience and knowledge of both the hobby as a whole and how 6th edition truly works is showing in spades.

I am absolutely not saying that Blood Angels aren't competitive. Every army in the game is to some degree. However, they are at the bottom of the barrel (not last by a long shot though) in terms of what army is capable of more when using the same level of player from codex to codex. They were fantastic in 5th with tons and tons of builds and options, but as expected with an edition change, they are having some major issues staying relevant when their costs and design were based on things they were capable of in a 5th edition context.

[Tynskel]

Wow! You can name every major tournament. Good for you.
However, the small local tournament scene has dried up like crazy, which is where WAAC players learn how to beat stick people. The local tournaments in both california and indiana are practically non-existant. 5 years ago, most of the local stores in my area had tournaments at least 1 per month. I would get to go to a tournament almost every week. Nowadays, nothing. Maybe 1 per 6 months. Everything is now 'pick-up' games. Which is totally cool. But to say the tournament scene is strong is full of bunk.

Yeah, I am pretty sure you are lacking your imagination here. Once again, you are talking about x vs y. No duh. I think you forgot about using tactics, like: I have jump packs backed up by Fleeting dreads... Death Company are manueverable, inexpensive for what they do (flying bolters with 4 attacks on the charge at str 5 with FnP, throw in a chaplain, re-rolling everything), and are beat sticks.

[Tynskel]

Actually, you know what? I think I have an idea of what he's talking about.

Let's look at this 1500 point list:

HQ
• Librarian w/Jump Pack (125)

Elites
• Sanguinary Guard w/2 Infernus Pistols, 1 Power Fist (230)
• Furioso Dreadnought w/Blood Talons, Magna-Grapple (140)

Troops
• 5 Tactical Marines, Sergeant w/Power Weapon (105)
° In a Razorback w/Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Assault Cannon (95)
• 5 Tactical Marines, Sergeant w/Power Weapon (105)
° In a Razorback w/Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Assault Cannon (95)

Fast Attack
• 5 Vanguard Veterans w/4 Power Weapons, 5 Meltabombs (200)
• Baal Predator w/Dozer Blade (120)

Heavy Support (215)
• Stormraven w/Locator Beacon, Multi-Melt, Assault Cannon

Actually, I'm 70 points under... but I think I know what Tysnkel would go for here. Use all the other tools - tons of fast assault cannons, accurate deep strikers that can assault, flying terminators - to kill everything. Then have the razorback tac squads leap out and claim one or two objectives at the last minute. It's like playing Eldar, but red and bloodthirsty.

I would squeeze points in that list and grab either a cheap hv bolter devastator squad or a predator destructor.

[Xenith]

Actually, you know what? I think I have an idea of what he's talking about.

Let's look at this 1500 point list:

HQ
• Librarian w/Jump Pack (125)

Elites
• Sanguinary Guard w/2 Infernus Pistols, 1 Power Fist (230)
• Furioso Dreadnought w/Blood Talons, Magna-Grapple (140)

Troops
• 5 Tactical Marines, Sergeant w/Power Weapon (105)
° In a Razorback w/Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Assault Cannon (95)
• 5 Tactical Marines, Sergeant w/Power Weapon (105)
° In a Razorback w/Dozer Blade, Twin-Linked Assault Cannon (95)

Fast Attack
• 5 Vanguard Veterans w/4 Power Weapons, 5 Meltabombs (200)
• Baal Predator w/Dozer Blade (120)

Heavy Support (215)
• Stormraven w/Locator Beacon, Multi-Melt, Assault Cannon


Are the points on that Vanguard squad correct? I don't see why you would run them without packs. I can't remember the individual model cost, but the packs, power weapons and bombs alone come to 135pts, and I don't think VV are 65pts for 5.

If youre going with mounted objective grabbing squads, the Razor is the most important thing, I'd trade the tacs for assault marines and save yourself another 70pts. Dropping the power weapon frees a total of 100.

[Xenith]

Are the points on that Vanguard squad correct? I don't see why you would run them without packs. I can't remember the individual model cost, but the packs, power weapons and bombs alone come to 135pts, and I don't think VV are 65pts for 5.

If youre going with mounted objective grabbing squads, the Razor is the most important thing, I'd trade the tacs for assault marines and save yourself another 70pts. Dropping the power weapon frees a total of 100.

Blood Angels are in no way dead in 6th. Just play better with them, pick awesome units. Kick as with them. Surprise your opponent with new tactics.

The sheer amount of stuff we can do with the BA book is incredible. Your opponent sees 'BA' and thinks of an assault jumper list. Surprise them with a gunline backed with FNP.

[Martel732]

Wow! You can name every major tournament. Good for you.
However, the small local tournament scene has dried up like crazy, which is where WAAC players learn how to beat stick people. The local tournaments in both california and indiana are practically non-existant. 5 years ago, most of the local stores in my area had tournaments at least 1 per month. I would get to go to a tournament almost every week. Nowadays, nothing. Maybe 1 per 6 months. Everything is now 'pick-up' games. Which is totally cool. But to say the tournament scene is strong is full of bunk.

Yeah, I am pretty sure you are lacking your imagination here. Once again, you are talking about x vs y. No duh. I think you forgot about using tactics, like: I have jump packs backed up by Fleeting dreads... Death Company are manueverable, inexpensive for what they do (flying bolters with 4 attacks on the charge at str 5 with FnP, throw in a chaplain, re-rolling everything), and are beat sticks.

Death Company are not good. No amount of chest beating or insulting others will make them good. If this is your brilliant plan and brilliant tactics, I think its my turn to say BWAHAHAHAH.

[Martel732]

Blood Angels are in no way dead in 6th. Just play better with them, pick awesome units. Kick as with them. Surprise your opponent with new tactics.

The sheer amount of stuff we can do with the BA book is incredible. Your opponent sees 'BA' and thinks of an assault jumper list. Surprise them with a gunline backed with FNP.

Yes, we can do a lot of *stuff*, but how much of it is actually competitive? As an all comers list?

[Martel732]

I would squeeze points in that list and grab either a cheap hv bolter devastator squad or a predator destructor.

That's the only change you'd make to that list? You expect to table people with that at 1.5K?

[Tynskel]

That's the only change you'd make to that list? You expect to table people with that at 1.5K?

I have used very similar lists before, and yeah, I table people with it.
It is called using your head.

[Tynskel]

Death Company are not good. No amount of chest beating or insulting others will make them good. If this is your brilliant plan and brilliant tactics, I think its my turn to say BWAHAHAHAH.

I think, when it comes down to it, that you do not know what you are talking about.
I mean, what kind of defense is 'beating chests'. Have you tried to actually use them? It isn't hard. They hit like a ton of bricks. Oh that's right, I think you just like to compare 1 unit at a time. Seriously, that's why you are having trouble. You need to start thinking before you move your models, not to mention, you need to think about how your army is put together. You don't take just death company and some furiosos. You bring units that multiply the synergies.

[Tynskel]

That's the only change you'd make to that list? You expect to table people with that at 1.5K?

I wasn't trying to change the list.
I was just trying to fill in the 70 points. I don't tell people to drastically change lists–they probably have an idea, and I want them to try it. I usually state that I don't like spam lists, because they are unoriginal, and quite frankly, easy to fight.

[Wolfshade]

I have shied away from using death company with the changes in assault rules in 6th, especially given that I tend to play small games ~1000pts. However, I was playing around with a list and slipped in 5 death company, reculsiarch and DC dread and I have found them to be incredibly effective, indeed more so than in 5th, the change to rage is a double win, on one hand it removes the restriction that they must move to the nearest enemy and then on the other you then gain +2 attacks on the charge, which is just a startling improvement. I agree the downgrade to FnP does hurt them but it is still a useful boon.

[Martel732]

In all seriousness, the proposed list's model count is far too low. Especially if that stormraven has the dreadnought on board.

DC only hit like a ton of bricks on a unit where it matters if your opponent is average to poor. The DC look like champs against players who don't know what to do when they see them. They don't take fire well for how much they cost, and if they get counter assaulted, they're not much better than ASM. And they don't score. So who is pretending they have DC in some kind of vacuum where they can just run around and do whatever they want?

*You* need to start remembering that your opponent is not an eggplant. DC are not efficient as a fire magnet and they *will* draw fire. I don't see how this is a good thing. A single battle cannon hit and *splat*. That's the worst case scenario, but its not like they are great vs plasma or whatever. And their point cost makes them a *very* efficient target.

The more you post, the more clear it is you don't play 6th edition. Or if you do, it's against people conditioned to lose to you.

[Tynskel]

The more you post, the clearer it is that you don't understand how to use your army to protect itself.
What do you do, blinding fly down the middle? Seriously, that's how you make it sound. Again with the x vs y bunk junk. Stop doing that to yourself. Oh, if they get counter attacked, oh if x happens I'll just lie down and die.

Do you realize how hard it is to counter attack some of these units in combination? It is difficult. It is also extremely hard to remove tanks from the board. People bring less and less weapons that will penetrate, and more and more weapons that will likely glance. Glances wreck vehicles, which actually improves their LoS blocking (you are supposed to put down more terrain, if you follow the rules properly, ie. smoke etc.). Have you ever popped smoke? That adds +2" to the radius of a tank (you are supposed to physically put down smoke, a LoS blocking mechanism). Seriously. I think you need to think about how to play the game.



Waaaaaay too much theoretical math hammering, not enough actual practical experience. Again, math is a tool, and a tool is only useful if you apply the correct tool for the appropriate job.

[The Dave]

Have you ever popped smoke? That adds +2" to the radius of a tank (you are supposed to physically put down smoke, a LoS blocking mechanism). Seriously. I think you need to think about how to play the game.

LOL!!!!!! AAAAAND, /thread! This right here proves you haven't even played 40k before and/or you are clearly cheating. You do NOT "physcially put down smoke, a LoS blocking mechanism". Read the god damned rulebook, where it says it just gives a vehicle a 5+ cover save. Your opinions are now entirely invalid. Thanks for playing.

[Wolfshade]

I'm not sure if you are aiming that at Tynskel or me.

But I will make the following observations regards to fire magnets.

Firstly, if you group your models so close that a single battle cannon can take them out then certainly you are doing something wrong, doubly so with small blast weapons.

The point is that you get the charge, same with any assaulting unit, with the a reculsiarch attached you are re-rolling to hit and to wound which is a boon not found anywhere else loyalists troops (or at least as far as I am aware). You point that when they are counter charged then they aren't much better than ASM, this is true only don't forget that they are base 2 attacks compared with 1. I am unsure of any melee unit that is better when it is counter charged than when it charges. They also get FnP, which I would need to purchase a priest for to get otherwise, because of this they take fire much better than ASM. Whether they are cost effective for being shot at is an assumption that you move the unit so that they can be shot at and such that they are not in close combat.

[Martel732]

It's not hard at all to set up counter attacks. Your opponent gets a movement phase as well.

Given that practically any other list will outshoot this proposed list at 1.5K, the impetus is on this list to close the gap. Taking fire the whole way, I might add. There's not even a sanguinary priest in this list. It will be shot to pieces. Literally. By good lists, mind you.

People where I play still bring plenty of lascannons and melta. They have another purpose as well, you know: instagibbing characters and penetrating 2+ armor. If everyone is your meta is using plasma and autocannon, good for you.

Your entire scheme revolves around the LoS blocking mechansim it seems. What if your opponent uses dark lances or lascannons to junk your mobile terrain on your side of the board? I do it all the time to space wolves, because I have to deny their mobility or they *will kill me*. You don't think I use my rhinos and razors as cover and LoS blockers? That trick alone doesn't always get you very far. Who are you playing against?

And smoke doesn't to squat to block LoS. It provides a 5++ cover save for said vehicle. Yay. Doesn't help a razor being torrented by STR 7 very much. That's why torrent is good.

[Martel732]

I'm not sure if you are aiming that at Tynskel or me.

But I will make the following observations regards to fire magnets.

Firstly, if you group your models so close that a single battle cannon can take them out then certainly you are doing something wrong, doubly so with small blast weapons.

The point is that you get the charge, same with any assaulting unit, with the a reculsiarch attached you are re-rolling to hit and to wound which is a boon not found anywhere else loyalists troops (or at least as far as I am aware). You point that when they are counter charged then they aren't much better than ASM, this is true only don't forget that they are base 2 attacks compared with 1. I am unsure of any melee unit that is better when it is counter charged than when it charges. They also get FnP, which I would need to purchase a priest for to get otherwise, because of this they take fire much better than ASM. Whether they are cost effective for being shot at is an assumption that you move the unit so that they can be shot at and such that they are not in close combat.

Look at how many points you are paying to do what you are talking about. Now you are adding in a reclusiarch to the mix. That means you don't have libby support, because two marine HQs below 2K is not a good idea. Even if the battle cannon only wastes say 4 or 5 DC, that's still an incredibly efficient shot. Expensive models with T4 W1 in general, suck because of lack of resilience.

I'm not contesting that the DC will slaughter most anything they get to assault. That's not the issue. The issue is what you are paying for the privilege, and the fact that your opponent also knows this. The way movement works, it's not to hard to feed the DC a sacrificial unit and then shoot them off the board on the following turn. Sometimes, you don't want to massacre your opponent in a single turn because you are guaranteed to be vulnerable to the following shooting phase.

[Tynskel]

LOL!!!!!! AAAAAND, /thread! This right here proves you haven't even played 40k before and/or you are clearly cheating. You do NOT "physcially put down smoke, a LoS blocking mechanism". Read the god damned rulebook, where it says it just gives a vehicle a 5+ cover save. Your opinions are now entirely invalid. Thanks for playing.


Annnnnd read the rulebook where it says to PLACE DOWN SMOKE. How do you measure LoS--- directly. ie, if there is ANYTHING obstructing the view, you cannot see. The additional rule is that the smoke ONLY provides 5+ for tanks.

[The Dave]

Annnnnd read the rulebook where it says to PLACE DOWN SMOKE. How do you measure LoS--- directly. ie, if there is ANYTHING obstructing the view, you cannot see. The additional rule is that the smoke ONLY provides 5+ for tanks.

Cheater. Simple as that, you would be cheating to try and claim Line of Sight blockage through something that is only there to represent that you used a wargear item (Smoke) to give your vehicle a 5+ cover save. It can also be a counter or something equally non-important to the game.

Good luck in your future endeavors in this game. If this is a window into your gaming experiences with others, then it's pretty clear you probably don't get in many games and spend too much time trolling instead, and this is why you are just failing and hurling wild accusations and making false statements, just to toot your own horn and try to demean others.

LOLZORZ

[Martel732]

I have to look at that, but I've never seen anyone do that. That makes it sound very dubious to me.

But this really leads credence to my "big fish in a small pond theory".

[The Dave]

I have to look at that, but I've never seen anyone do that. That makes it sound very dubious to me.

But this really leads credence to my "big fish in a small pond theory".

That's the type of player Tynskel is. He cheats to win, and your theory is probably exactly what he's based all his "knowledge" off of. I know now that any time I see a post from him to just completely skip past it. Poor kid. I hope he gets some real games in sometime outside of the few players he cheats against.

[Martel732]

Look, for anyone still reading this, this is the take home message to me. The BA suffer *greatly* from the "codex full of overpriced toys" syndrome. The BA have all kinds of models that cost extra, but don't offer much in the way of extra resiliency. 6th edition is the game of mass shooting. You will not be able to hide all the time. You won't even get cover all the time. Your lists must be able to absorb shots. This is why models like the vanguard and DC are bad, because even if they do their job, you are reducing your model count greatly. This is a mistake for a list that is already elite, made more elite by things like sanguinary priests and fast vehicles. Your opponent is going to do damage to you, if they are any good. I see far too many BA lists that just can't absorb the punishment that you *will* take vs good lists.

[The Dave]

Look, for anyone still reading this, this is the take home message to me. The BA suffer *greatly* from the "codex full of overpriced toys" syndrome. The BA have all kinds of models that cost extra, but don't offer much in the way of extra resiliency. 6th edition is the game of mass shooting. You will not be able to hide all the time. You won't even get cover all the time. Your lists must be able to absorb shots. This is why models like the vanguard and DC are bad, because even if they do their job, you are reducing your model count greatly. This is a mistake for a list that is already elite, made more elite by things like sanguinary priests and fast vehicles. Your opponent is going to do damage to you, if they are any good. I see far too many BA lists that just can't absorb the punishment that you *will* take vs good lists.

Exactly. Well said.

[Martel732]

I forgot to mention the lists that can beat us in HTH. The expansion of this list is perhaps the biggest problem BA have for making all comers lists in 6th. How much to shoot? How much to HTH? With as much as we pay for stuff, and the nerfs we took, there don't appear to be any good answers that I see. Other than the answer is that the BA are a bottom tier codex. It happens in GW games. Many lists get a turn on the bottom of the food chain.

[Warpspider89]

Cheater. Simple as that, you would be cheating to try and claim Line of Sight blockage through something that is only there to represent that you used a wargear item (Smoke) to give your vehicle a 5+ cover save. It can also be a counter or something equally non-important to the game.

Good luck in your future endeavors in this game. If this is a window into your gaming experiences with others, then it's pretty clear you probably don't get in many games and spend too much time trolling instead, and this is why you are just failing and hurling wild accusations and making false statements, just to toot your own horn and try to demean others.

LOLZORZ

He isn't cheating by putting down smoke. It is in the BRB. This practice can be seen on many Batreps like those found on Miniwargaming. It certainly provides additional LOS blocking for any attempts to fire over the vehicle that has popped smoke. Calling someone a cheater for using that to their advantage is both unfair and unkind.


That's the type of player Tynskel is. He cheats to win, and your theory is probably exactly what he's based all his "knowledge" off of. I know now that any time I see a post from him to just completely skip past it. Poor kid. I hope he gets some real games in sometime outside of the few players he cheats against.

I find this kind of name calling and finger pointing highly offensive. While Tynskel may have frustrated you previously that is not an excuse to attack his character. Attacking a person's character rather than acknowledging the strengths and weaknesses of their argument is a sign of low self-control, weak arguments, and poor debate skills.


Look, for anyone still reading this, this is the take home message to me. The BA suffer *greatly* from the "codex full of overpriced toys" syndrome. The BA have all kinds of models that cost extra, but don't offer much in the way of extra resiliency. 6th edition is the game of mass shooting. You will not be able to hide all the time. You won't even get cover all the time. Your lists must be able to absorb shots. This is why models like the vanguard and DC are bad, because even if they do their job, you are reducing your model count greatly. This is a mistake for a list that is already elite, made more elite by things like sanguinary priests and fast vehicles. Your opponent is going to do damage to you, if they are any good. I see far too many BA lists that just can't absorb the punishment that you *will* take vs good lists.

I feel like this line has been repeated over and over in this thread. The sad fact is that it fixates on the problem rather than the solution. We need answers to address this problem and at least Tynskel is challenging us to think outside the box. I play Eldar for my main force and I know what it is like to have too few models on the battlefield. Still, I do win games. It is important to be creative. Using unexpected army lists can catch people off guard and wipe them out before they realize the threat they face. Fritz40k uses this fact to his advantage all the time!

[Tynskel]

That's the type of player Tynskel is. He cheats to win, and your theory is probably exactly what he's based all his "knowledge" off of. I know now that any time I see a post from him to just completely skip past it. Poor kid. I hope he gets some real games in sometime outside of the few players he cheats against.

Oh, now I am a cheater?
I am sorry that you have problems reading the rules of the book.

[Tynskel]

He isn't cheating by putting down smoke. It is in the BRB. This practice can be seen on many Batreps like those found on Miniwargaming. It certainly provides additional LOS blocking for any attempts to fire over the vehicle that has popped smoke. Calling someone a cheater for using that to their advantage is both unfair and unkind.



I find this kind of name calling and finger pointing highly offensive. While Tynskel may have frustrated you previously that is not an excuse to attack his character. Attacking a person's character rather than acknowledging the strengths and weaknesses of their argument is a sign of low self-control, weak arguments, and poor debate skills.



I feel like this line has been repeated over and over in this thread. The sad fact is that it fixates on the problem rather than the solution. We need answers to address this problem and at least Tynskel is challenging us to think outside the box. I play Eldar for my main force and I know what it is like to have too few models on the battlefield. Still, I do win games. It is important to be creative. Using unexpected army lists can catch people off guard and wipe them out before they realize the threat they face. Fritz40k uses this fact to his advantage all the time!

Miniwargaming is awesome.
Name calling is alright, just look at the tagline that Jwolf gave me.

And, on your last point: exactly what I am talking about.

[Martel732]

So what's the rule for exactly how much smoke can be deployed? I don't have a BRB with me. I really don't see how putting down a few cotton balls helps with LOS more than just turning the Rhino sideways, which is standard practice. I still find this smoke thing very dubious. I can't believe we are arguing over smoke radius now as a crux to make BA viable. And, of course, whatever we can do, everyone else with smoke launchers can too.

You've been caught trying to sell this before. It's amazing what a google search will come up with.

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?10259-Question-Regarding-Smoke-Launchers/page2

It also turns out that the official GW marker for "smoke" is a small green token. If this is your big scheme for BA, it's epic fail.

[The Dave]

Oh sure, villainize me because I'm calling someone out on their BS after PAGES of him making baseless statements and being excruciatingly unhelpful, often even insulting over and over again.


You've been caught trying to sell this before. It's amazing what a google search will come up with.

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?10259-Question-Regarding-Smoke-Launchers/page2

It also turns out that the official GW marker for "smoke" is a small green token. If this is your big scheme for BA, it's epic fail.

Thank you.

[Defenestratus]

It also turns out that the official GW marker for "smoke" is a small green token. If this is your big scheme for BA, it's epic fail.

LOL

"BUT THAT GREEN MARKER CLEARLY GIVES MY GUYS A COVER SAVE!!"

Cotton balls != cover save for anything other than the cotton ball dispenser. To claim otherwise is a token of a true rules bender who is more interested in trying to screw the other player with inane rules interpretations than actually have a good time.

[Martel732]

Creativity does help. But at a store with a lot of players who all know each codex fairly well, including forgeworld, it's hard to surprise them. All the creativity in the world doesn't matter if you get your stuff into the right position, but they lack the efficacy to make a different in the battle. In this way, mathhammer can not be avoided. You still have to roll the dice and things have to happen, or you lose. Ask the swooping hawks, for example, about this. (Yes, I know they can haywire now, but you get the point as an Eldar player). High costs mean that the BA have potentially fewer models to get creative with. This isn't Starcraft. You can't out APM your opponent or change up your build order upon scouting of an enemy structure.

[Martel732]

LOL

"BUT THAT GREEN MARKER CLEARLY GIVES MY GUYS A COVER SAVE!!"

Cotton balls != cover save for anything other than the cotton ball dispenser. To claim otherwise is a token of a true rules bender who is more interested in trying to screw the other player with inane rules interpretations than actually have a good time.

He's actually claiming LOS blockage. But again, I can hide 10 ASM behind a sideways Rhino trivially, so again *this is nothing really new*.

[Tynskel]

So what's the rule for exactly how much smoke can be deployed? I don't have a BRB with me. I really don't see how putting down a few cotton balls helps with LOS more than just turning the Rhino sideways, which is standard practice. I still find this smoke thing very dubious. I can't believe we are arguing over smoke radius now as a crux to make BA viable. And, of course, whatever we can do, everyone else with smoke launchers can too.

You've been caught trying to sell this before. It's amazing what a google search will come up with.

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?10259-Question-Regarding-Smoke-Launchers/page2

It also turns out that the official GW marker for "smoke" is a small green token. If this is your big scheme for BA, it's epic fail.

As you can tell, I have been playing this way for YEARS. It is only the WAAC player that constantly say the you can't put down the cotton. You have been able to pop smoke forever, perhaps 20 years. You put cotton down. It has always been an LoS blocker, in cases where LoS is important.

Same with wrecked markers. You put down the tower of smoke, it blocks LoS.

[Martel732]

As you can tell, I have been playing this way for YEARS. It is only the WAAC player that constantly say the you can't put down the cotton. You have been able to pop smoke forever, perhaps 20 years. You put cotton down. It has always been an LoS blocker, in cases where LoS is important.

An opponent can insist you play with the official GW smoke tokens. Any player can certainly do that if they have some in their kit. That fixes this problem real fast. And it also includes players that don't like other players twisting rules to the breaking point.

[Tynskel]

An opponent can insist you play with the official GW smoke tokens. Any player can certainly do that if they have some in their kit. That fixes this problem real fast. And it also includes players that don't like other players twisting rules to the breaking point.

And, of course, at a tournament, I would challenge that. Every tournament I have been to allows 'suitable markers' if you have brought them. And most tournament organizers won't let you share stuff.

I have never had an organizer tell me 'no' because if you take the time to make them look cool, you won't get denied.

I've even seen someone use cigarettes as their 'smoke' markers. The TO just laughed and said it was okay.

[The Dave]

An opponent can insist you play with the official GW smoke tokens. Any player can certainly do that if they have some in their kit. That fixes this problem real fast. And it also includes players that don't like other players twisting rules to the breaking point.

Again, exactly correct. Play like that in any of a dozen stores I've been to, or in the so-called "dead" competitive environment, and you'd be laughed out of the store Tynskel. Sorry bro, cool story, but it just doesn't work that way. Calling someone a WAAC player too because they DON'T like the smoke is hilariously backwards. Trying to claim LOS blockage off of smoke is pretty WAAC, aside from the fact that it's cheating. Fact.

[Tynskel]

Again, exactly correct. Play like that in any of a dozen stores I've been to, or in the so-called "dead" competitive environment, and you'd be laughed out of the store Tynskel. Sorry bro, cool story, but it just doesn't work that way. Calling someone a WAAC player too because they DON'T like the smoke is hilariously backwards. Trying to claim LOS blockage off of smoke is pretty WAAC, aside from the fact that it's cheating. Fact.

No, it is not cheating. I am following the letters to the T. Go and read them. Become enlightened. Think outside the box.

I am not sure how you can possible say that it is WAAC. Someone telling me to not follow the rules because it puts them at a disadvantage is WAAC.

Just because you forgot to read the rules doesn't mean that you are correct.

[Martel732]

No, it is not cheating. I am following the letters to the T. Go and read them. Become enlightened. Think outside the box.

I am not sure how you can possible say that it is WAAC. Someone telling me to not follow the rules because it puts them at a disadvantage is WAAC.

Just because you forgot to read the rules doesn't mean that you are correct.

I've got the book in front of me and there is nothing under the entry for smoke launchers to justify your interpretation of them. LOS is not mentioned once. In fact, the only effect listed is to give the vehicle a 5+ cover save.

Across wargaming, smoke is usually represented by a cotton ball on *top* of the tank. Your rules stretch is not only incredibly lame, it also really doesn't truly address the issues of the BA. This topic has made a mockery of this thread. Because even if what you wanted to do was allowed, other armies would get the same advantage.

[ElectricPaladin]

I think a lot of the misunderstanding might come from the fact that in the old days, back before True LOS, destroyed vehicles (and buildings, sometimes) created pillars of smoke of a certain height.

[Warpspider89]

Oh sure, villainize me because I'm calling someone out on their BS after PAGES of him making baseless statements and being excruciatingly unhelpful, often even insulting over and over again.



Thank you.

You are no villain. My point is that the perception of one person's poor behaviour is neither a good excuse nor a good justification to demonstrate poor behaviour. That applies to everyone, myself included.

[Warpspider89]

I think a lot of the misunderstanding might come from the fact that in the old days, back before True LOS, destroyed vehicles (and buildings, sometimes) created pillars of smoke of a certain height.

Good analysis of the situation ElectricPaladin. You keep finding a way to see the value in both sides of the argument. You are consistently respectful to everyone in the discussion. Also, you contribute useful points on the use of BA. Thanks for being awesome.

[Tynskel]

I've got the book in front of me and there is nothing under the entry for smoke launchers to justify your interpretation of them. LOS is not mentioned once. In fact, the only effect listed is to give the vehicle a 5+ cover save.

Across wargaming, smoke is usually represented by a cotton ball on *top* of the tank. Your rules stretch is not only incredibly lame, it also really doesn't truly address the issues of the BA. This topic has made a mockery of this thread. Because even if what you wanted to do was allowed, other armies would get the same advantage.

I have stated before most of the complaints that you have stated applies to all other armies.
Sooooo, why are you losing?

[Warpspider89]

There is no need to provoke people Tynskel.

If you want people to listen to you I find that it is best to keep a level head regardless of incoming criticism.

Once again, why are we attacking each other instead of working together to find out what works NOT what doesn't work. We could go on for a very long time about the means to fail since there are far more possibilities to fail at games then there are to succeed.

[ElectricPaladin]

Once again, why are we attacking each other instead of working together to find out what works NOT what doesn't work. We could go on for a very long time about the means to fail since there are far more possibilities to fail at games then there are to succeed.

Bingo.

Personally, I'd like to see someone try out Tynskel's minimum scoring unit theory. Who's interesting in bringing that to the table next time they play?

[Warpspider89]

If the lists that are being used aren't working then why not? I think it would be worth the attempt.

[Martel732]

If the lists that are being used aren't working then why not? I think it would be worth the attempt.

Go for it. But my old 5th edition lists with 15 marines are very similiar, had fewer wasted points (at least compared to what has been posted), and were having problems when it came time to tally score. The BA really didn't have the firepower to table in 5th consistently and certainly don't in 6th. But go ahead.

[Defenestratus]

No, it is not cheating. I am following the letters to the T. Go and read them. Become enlightened. Think outside the box.

I am not sure how you can possible say that it is WAAC. Someone telling me to not follow the rules because it puts them at a disadvantage is WAAC.

Just because you forgot to read the rules doesn't mean that you are correct.

Since its WAAC to say that cotton balls on top of tanks do NOT cause LoS blockage, I've decided to turn over my WAAC leaf and start using appropriate models for my smoke launchers and wrecks.

Downside is that I had to hire these dudes to carry the smoke markers around for me to every game.

http://blog.propurchaser.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/cotton-ball.jpg

[Tynskel]

Since its WAAC to say that cotton balls on top of tanks do NOT cause LoS blockage, I've decided to turn over my WAAC leaf and start using appropriate models for my smoke launchers and wrecks.

Downside is that I had to hire these dudes to carry the smoke markers around for me to every game.

http://blog.propurchaser.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/cotton-ball.jpg

I am glad that you are willing to try something new.
Also, it is fun to bring cheerleaders to your games!


But seriously, it forces your opponents to think about what targets to shoot first, or if it is worth while to blast front row targets first. The game is many times more dynamic, if you play to make the game dynamic.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand /thread


Always a pleasure rules forum.