Need help: Why to take Mordrak or Stern ( in 6th)

[Wildcard]

Try as I might, I cannot find any reason, be that competitive (10% of me) or fun (90% of me), why to take Grand Master Mordrak or Brother-Captain Stern from the Grey Knight Codex for any pointlimited game.

So, of four named Grey Knight characters, i cannot find any use for 50% of them, yet they have cleared playtesting, codex designer have had something in mind while designing them, they have reasonable amount of backstory etc etc.. In other words, they would deserve a spot in a list, atleast every once in a while..

But, I cannot find a reason why to pick neither of those, and thats where I would wan't comments, help and ideas.

The drawbacks are obvious - you pay alot for what you get, and even more when compared to the options (non-named grand masters and brother captains).

So, please help me find the good points (and fair uses) for the named heroes in the topic!

[DarkLink]

Stern is worthless.

Mordrack is decent, between free deepstrike and Ghost Knights. The whole Librarian summoning trick is too much work for too little benefit, but dropping Mordrack and 5 GKT into terrain (preferably ruins) in enemy territory is pretty awesome, especially if they have, say, devestators set up in an Aegis Defense line. It's not very useful against some enemies, though, and you can't take psyscannons either.

[Wildcard]

Yeah, last game i got mordrak and 5 ghost knights, on first turn they popped behind enemy lines and got pretty much owned by all that plasma and lascannon shots that poured against them. (i know it was a poor place to deepstrike them, but anyway..)

If you could get some psycannons to them, then it would probably be worth it at some cases, but lacking the rule to assault after deepstriking, the deepstrike is practically useless 'benefit'. The squad costed 425pts or something and i could have definately had more benefit for those points from somewhere else..

And then there is Stern. for 200 points he gets one re-roll per turn? And zone of banishment, what a great way of killing 50% of your terminators in one charge :(

I mean, is he a relic from old codex, and has there been such a 'mistreat' from other named heroes on other codexes that have had "facelift" in a new dex?.. Because i just can't fathom how and why he is as he is.. :(

[Eberk]

I mean, is he a relic from old codex, and has there been such a 'mistreat' from other named heroes on other codexes that have had "facelift" in a new dex?.. Because i just can't fathom how and why he is as he is.. :(
I remember a (very) short story about Grey Knights entering a throne rome from an imperial governor (I think) which then turns out to be a Greater Daemon (M'kachen). The leader of those Grey Knights was Stern if I recall correctly.

I tried to find the story but can't seem to locate it... perhaps it was featured in an old White Dwarf (120-150ish ?)

The story I'm talking about is from the early nineties, the time where all Grey Knights wore Terminator armour and had Halberds with a build-in storm bolter in the halberds blade.

Stern is a relic ;) and that's probably why he is in the Codex now.

Edit: did find a very old story in the 40K compilation book (the yellow one) but no Grey Knight is named and they are fighting a Bloodthirster. Is my memory playing tricks on me after all these years ?

[Seirin]

The Daemon in that story was M'kachen, and it was in the 'daemonhunters' codex.

As for his game usage...he is, as was said, effectively useless.


Mordrak needs using smartly, but in essence he's either a librarian delivery system or a distraction unit. Deep strike next to the best cover then run him inside to get a 3+/2+ cover save and eat as many AP2/1 high S weapons as you like. Turn after you can go to town.

Mordrak is actually pretty good for what you get, even if you just deploy him normally. 50pts more than a regular GM and you get...access to stealth knights, possibility of 3 more showing up, +1 W, +1 A, master crafted hammer and 'first into the fray'. Not bad, shame about no grenades or IC though or he'd be a staple.

[Eberk]

The Daemon in that story was M'kachen, and it was in the 'daemonhunters' codex.
Indeed... I'm mixing up 2 stories. The very old one and the one from codex daemonhunters.

Turns out Stern isn't such a 'relic' ;)

Sorry for the confusion

[Seirin]

Theres so much fluff in W40k that its basically impossible not to mix something up now and again. Lol.

[DarkLink]

You can take a Malleus Inquisitor with Terminator armor and a Psycannon in Mordrack's squad. The big secret to letting them live, though, is to not deepstrike within range of a bunch of plasma rifles. Just don't do it. Though ruins plus Stealth does get you a 3+ cover save.

[Wildcard]

You can take a Malleus Inquisitor with Terminator armor and a Psycannon in Mordrack's squad

Even though i am open to all approaches and all combination found in the codex, using such a tactic eats away your second HQ slot, not to mention that practically every ap2/1 gun (that i am facing for some reason alot) happens to cause instant death on inquisitor.

And, my hopes were to keep this on the grey knights side of things (hence the 4 named HQs, and not including coteaz, karamatzov, valerie..)

- But what is this "librarian" transport device, and how do you intend on using it?


And, keep on trying to find some good points why to include those two in an army (or one of the two). Since I just don't want to believe that 50% of the GK chars were slipped past the desing staff as an utter crap..

[Seirin]

The librarian transport option is the 'mordrak bomb'. Basically, you include a tooled up libby in your ghost unit with warp rift, then you use mordrak's accurate deep strike to put the libby in perfect position to use the rift. Then combine stealth, shrouding and going to ground the unit becomes neigh immortal. Avoid going to ground if possible though.

Its an expensive gimmick, but it can be effective.

[Mr.Pickelz]

The problem with Stern, when in comparison to the old verison, is that he was a good choice for a DH HQ option, being that he was a Grandmaster in CC, while being like 2 or 3 points cheaper off the base cost of one, and came with some cool items(that weren't good against not daemons though).
Now though, we have a character that is good on his own (psyker power) or maybe attached to a throw-away unit. For 200 points though you could choose better options that are easier to work with. :(

[Wildcard]

Good points and analyses.. thanks for those!

Do you guys know any links to any interviews / reviews / etc etc that would contain some opinions or comments about these two dudes from the author / dev team of Codex: Gk? :)

[Seirin]

With draigo and crowe stealing the limelight I don't know if anyone bothered to talk about mordrak/stern.

As for stern, I had a few games with him a while back to try and find any use for him. If you can manage to drive him up in a land raider with support then split him off and charge a unit from both sides, he can USUALLY not catch friendlies in the blast and still be effective. Only downfall is that its easy enough to avoid and its a gimmick even then.

[Bean]

Mordrak is actually quite good. Compared to a normal GM, he misses out on grenades, which is a shame, and the ability to take a psycannon, but his perfect first turn deepstrike has high utility (even without psycannons). Plus he's pretty well armed anyway, and getting the occasional free terminator is nice. The stuff he brings is certainly worth the extra 25 points over a standard GM.

Stern is balls. It's sad, but true. And regular GMs are good enough (not to mention Draigo, who's awesome) that Mordrak isn't really necessary. But he's fine--and pretty entertaining. Try him out sometime. It's worth doing it once or twice, even if you don't decide to keep using him.

[Seirin]

Mordrak's only key weakness is his lack of variety. He can ONLY join one unit, he will almost ALWAYS play the alpha strike, and he can't take any grenade caddies with him on his drop (unless you count warp-rifting librarians).

On his side though, hes cheap for what he is, and an extra W/A over a grand master isn't to be scoffed. No IC drops his Look out Sir! chances now though.

[Bean]

Mordrak's only key weakness is his lack of variety. He can ONLY join one unit, he will almost ALWAYS play the alpha strike, and he can't take any grenade caddies with him on his drop (unless you count warp-rifting librarians).

On his side though, hes cheap for what he is, and an extra W/A over a grand master isn't to be scoffed. No IC drops his Look out Sir! chances now though.

He could take a second GM as a grenade caddy...though I'm not sure I would.

But yeah. He does exactly one thing. He does do it pretty well, though, and it's something that is often pretty good. So, you know. It's not like doing only one thing is a huge downside.

[Seirin]

Absolutely, although any opponent who has dealt with mordrak before will likely know how to deal with him, unlike other GMs that can adapt.

As for a GM caddie...far far too expensive to throw into a distraction unit. Can't believe I haven't tried that..

[Bean]

Absolutely, although any opponent who has dealt with mordrak before will likely know how to deal with him, unlike other GMs that can adapt.


True. But, you know, even if they deal with him, he can be an effective fork.



As for a GM caddie...far far too expensive to throw into a distraction unit. Can't believe I haven't tried that..

Lol, indeed. I haven't tried it either--never really seemed worth it. also, I think I've only played mordrak, like, twice.

[Seirin]

Heh, I played him against a friend of mine (IG player). His first game against Mordrak and he thought he knew how to play vs GK. He had a panic fit when I dropped 'drak right in front of him. Don't think he shot at anything other than 'drak for most of the game.

[Bean]

Heh, I played him against a friend of mine (IG player). His first game against Mordrak and he thought he knew how to play vs GK. He had a panic fit when I dropped 'drak right in front of him. Don't think he shot at anything other than 'drak for most of the game.

Haha, yeah. Right. An effective fork, indeed!

[Wildcard]

Don't think he shot at anything other than 'drak for most of the game.

If one has to shoot couple of terminators most of the game when playing as IG, he is doing something wrong, just saying :)

Many fair points.. but i still wonder how the hell most of the named characters (if we include the inquisitorial choices aswell) in the C:GK are utter crap with only one mediocre trick, no wider or "general purpose use", have built-in weaknesses of being t3 in an army with t4 (unless your lists are full henchmen - and Coteaz ain't the crappy one, so it doesn't really count).

Blood Angels and Space Wolfs have fantastic named heroes.. Imperial Guard has also many good ones.. Codex Marines have many that you can use to turn your army into something specific theme that works great for you (i know this one doesn't suit the issue 100%, but still, good heroes there)

Sisters, Tyranids, Daemons or Dark Eldar I have no knowledge about..

Eldar,Orks, BT, Tau - or the oldies so to say, are lacking alot to my understanding, yet, they are more or less on par with the design philosophy of that era..

I've been ruining my whole week trying to figure out, how and why such a HQ options for GK were let through, who thought they were fun? Who thought they were usefull? Who thought they served some higher purpose?

EDIT:
Good,fun or somehow viable:
2 out of 4 when thinking of GK only (50% crap)
3 out of 7 when taking all of the heroes in the book. (~60% crap)
Justicar Thawn is a funny one tho.. (although very expensive, just like apothecary for paladins..)

[Seirin]

Eldar have Eldrad, who remains very strong.

As for the IG thing, 6 terminators getting a 2+ cover save (fortified terrain + stealth) really makes a mockery of big guns. Think I ended up getting 2 more ghosts in all before the game ended too which was useful.

As for GK special characters, while we did get a couple of crap ones we also got some stonkers. Coteaz with the new psychic disciplines is sick, draigo is a beast (as long as his fluff doesn't offend you). Crowe is...crowe. Mordrak has uses. Really only valaria and stern are 'useless'.

Actually, thinking about it, Stern would have been pretty cool...IF he had been a grand master with grand strategy... Eternal warrior or grenades would have been nice too, but with just GM he would offer the same to an army as mordrak, but keep the lone-wolf solo ability (which, in all fairness, hes actually not bad at. 2+/3++ in CC with a reroll if needed and zone of banishment for kicks).

[DarkLink]

Coteaz is a beast. He was a beast before, now he's a beast on steroids. Practically every competitive GK list will have a primary HQ, and Coteaz. He's like a Farseer mixed with a powerfist Terminator, plus reroll seize, shoot at enemy reserves, and scoring henchmen, all for a mere 100pts.

Stern just need rules that are actually worth it. You pay 50pts to reroll a single dice per phase, and a crappy psychic power. Give him more rerolls (lots more) and make the psychic power not terrible.

[bfmusashi]

1. Stern exists because he was the first named Grey Knight ever. If memory serves his little fluff piece accompanied the WD rules for using Grey Knights in 2nd though he did not get rules or a model until Daemon Hunters.
2. Stern is the only lvl 2 Brother Captain. Once he's fulfilled his Psykic Communion role he is a remarkably versatile throw away unit. Like most HQs you don't really need him to survive to win.
3. Stern is tailor made for the Fastball Special. Attach Stern to a unit, ride in an assault vehicle, drive up to annoying things that refuse to die propperly (Thousand Sons, swarms, Guard platoons, etc), launch Stern and drive your unit over to whatever poor unfortunates need their attention. Stern has 2+/3++ in close combat with rerolls and Zone of Banishment ignores all saves, FNP, and Eternal Warrior. His only downside is T:4 and a lack of Eternal Warrior himself.

[Seirin]

Three simple things would make ZoB much better. T test rather than S, give stern rad grenades and make it always 6" rather than D6.

Free reign with the number of re-rolls might be interesting, even if your opponent got them too.

Coteaz was always good, yes. Now hes better.

@bfmusashi the only problem with your idea there is that stern's ZoB will kill his own unit - not just the opponents.

[Wildcard]

he is a remarkably versatile throw away unit.
Being both warlord (most likely) and character, would make it worth 1-2-(possibly 3, don't remember that kill-the-heretic game-mode) victory points, and where 1 is hard to freely give to your enemy, three is absurd amount.. So, depending on the gamemode, the concept "throw away unit" is a lot less viable in my opinion.


Stern is the only lvl 2 Brother Captain. Once he's fulfilled his Psykic Communion
If i am not mistaken, this is the first actual strategy for Stern on this thread *YAY!* ;) .. So, using psychic communion would mean that we have units in reserve to benefit from it. And this in turn would mean that Stern would have to start the game on board. Okies. Thats 200points on footslogger that can be instaed by single lascannon shot (if you are going to run him to enemy, and not being able to hide him in your deployment zone for example. Or 455points with a landraider to transport him.. Gotta think about that..

Also, being able to re-roll one save per phase is not enough.. i've lost more terminators to 1's that ive lost strike squads / purifiers to 1's and 2's :) .. 4/6 saves 1's and best was 6 out of 7 failed 2+ saves... so, one bloody re-roll aint gonna do any difference in my strategy :D

Also, he is only ap3 in cc, thus making himself less usefull in combat against many enemy cc monsters with artificer or terminator (or equivalent 2+) saves..

Single him out, so that he is not that much of a threat to your own forces and you will be shot with those str8+ ap2 weapons.. put him in with troops, and you threaten to wipe em all out in the first round of combat :D

- Speaking of which, do you know if hammerhand gives your troops more strenght to resist the effect? (2x hammerhands making you str6, thus only failing the test on 6'es)? ..That would make it reasonably good strategy to pop both Sterns and Squads hammerhand, and then pop the Zone of Banishment..

As a side note: Thanks for taking part in the discussion for this long, i was kinda scared that it would end with one or two post dictating that "both are crap - use some other HQs"!

[bfmusashi]

Three simple things would make ZoB much better. T test rather than S, give stern rad grenades and make it always 6" rather than D6.

Free reign with the number of re-rolls might be interesting, even if your opponent got them too.

Coteaz was always good, yes. Now hes better.

@bfmusashi the only problem with your idea there is that stern's ZoB will kill his own unit - not just the opponents.

Zone of Banishment is fine as a S test with a random radius. It does not allow any form of defense. Also, Stern is alone in the Fastball Special, he gets out of the vehicle alone, he assaults alone, he kills every terminator within range on a 5+. Yes, he gets one reroll on his armor save, but it's a 2+/3++ with 3 wounds. It is also worth noting he's only your warlord if you want him to be, all HQs in the GK codex are Ld 10.
Stern has 3 Attacks base, that's 4 on the charge, and at psyker lvl 2 that's S:5 AP3 Instant Death hits. There are situations where Zone of Banishment is superior, such as terminator squads, dudes with Eternal Warrior or a full squad of marines. Stern is worth 1-3 vp (1 for being a unit, 1 if he's your warlord, and 1 if it's Purge the Alien). As a GK player you likely have the advantage in Purge the Alien so there's no reason to play it safe and I don't know why you'd make him your warlord.

[Wildcard]

Sorry to bring alive old thred, but this was rather relevant to post here, so i didn't feel the need to start a new thread:

2 things crossed my mind when thinking of Stern and i'd like your opinions on the matter.

1) Can enemy use the Deny the Witch - for Zone of Banishment
2) Can Sterns own troops use Deny the Witch if affected by Zone of Banishment if:
a) They are part of the Sterns unit
b) If they are not in the Sterns unit

[DarkLink]

1) A unit gets Deny the Witch against any power that "targets" that unit. Zone of Banishment targets everyone within D6", so each unit within D6" gets Deny the Witch.

2) Yes. The source of the power doesn't matter, only that the power targets the unit. Since Zone of Banishment targets the friendly unit, they can Deny it.

a) Yes. It hits a model within Stern's unit, thus his unit may Deny the power.

b) Yes. It hits a model in the unit, even if Stern is not attached, thus the unit may Deny the power.


Other things of note:

1) Deny the Witch only protects that individual unit, so you can affect one unit but not the other if you clip multiple units.

2) Only the models within D6" are hit, but Deny the Witch is done on a unit-by-unit basis.

[Wildcard]

That raises another point:

What psychic lvl is the squad that has Stern joined use? That of its justicar / Knight of Flame or that of Stern to try to Deny the Witch?

:)

[DarkLink]

Stern is part of that unit, so the unit is PM2 for those purposes. It doesn't matter though, because either way the unit is not a higher PM level than Stern and so it's a 5+ Deny the Witch.

[Wildcard]

Ofcourse, my bad. Was thinking of the mastery bonuses somehow differently.

Thanks for the contribution.. Seems like Stern still isn't as viable as i would have hoped anyway.. (with my newfound usefulness of Crowe)

[Learn2Eel]

Sternie boy is ok if you look at him alone, but once you compare him to the other HQs, he sadly just pales in comparison.

Mordrak can create quite a tactical dilemma for an opponent, especially if you use his deep strike intelligently. He might seem like a great way to distract an opponent but he will die like a grot to massed plasma fire. For what is it...25 points or so more than a stock Grand Master, you get some very hefty bonuses. The good thing about him is that he gets more durable Terminators against shooting, and he also never has to worry about buying a transport, a handicap other Terminators typically have to face. He might be part of a 400 point unit but at least he doesn't have to pay another 200+ points to get where he needs to be.

[Animus Silvanna]

Im very confused on this Characters can only join this one squad or cant join any squad. Am i missing a sentence from my rule book or something? or am i just failing to read it very plainly somewhere? So far ive heard that Crowe has to go it alone and now Mordrak can only join Ghost knights. I was under the impression that Mordrak [I]had the option[I] to take ghost knights and didn't have to thus allowing him to deepstrike with paladins which is how I use him at my game place. Please someone point out the rule that states where these characters can or cant join whatever unit they like. I fear my game lounge might linch me after discovering such Heresy.

[Nabterayl]

Im very confused on this Characters can only join this one squad or cant join any squad. Am i missing a sentence from my rule book or something? or am i just failing to read it very plainly somewhere? So far ive heard that Crowe has to go it alone and now Mordrak can only join Ghost knights. I was under the impression that Mordrak [I]had the option[I] to take ghost knights and didn't have to thus allowing him to deepstrike with paladins which is how I use him at my game place. Please someone point out the rule that states where these characters can or cant join whatever unit they like. I fear my game lounge might linch me after discovering such Heresy.
What you're looking for, Animus, is the distinction between characters and independent characters. As page 63 indicates, only independent characters have the option to join other units (cf. the Independent Character rule, page 39). Simply being a character doesn't give you that option, so if you're a plain old regular character, you are either stuck in the unit you come with (like a justicar), or stuck by yourself if you don't come with a unit (like Crowe). As page 5 of the BRB FAQ clarifies, unique models (such as Mordrak or Crowe; cf. BRB page 110) do count as characters, but they are not independent characters unless they specifically have that rule.

[Animus Silvanna]

What you're looking for, Animus, is the distinction between characters and independent characters. As page 63 indicates, only independent characters have the option to join other units (cf. the Independent Character rule, page 39). Simply being a character doesn't give you that option, so if you're a plain old regular character, you are either stuck in the unit you come with (like a justicar), or stuck by yourself if you don't come with a unit (like Crowe). As page 5 of the BRB FAQ clarifies, unique models (such as Mordrak or Crowe; cf. BRB page 110) do count as characters, but they are not independent characters unless they specifically have that rule.

Ohhhhh. I see the light now. Makes sense to me I appreciate the knowledge bomb.