Science and the United States

[Bigred]

I weep for my nation...

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/205992_465671563453860_1776328912_n.jpg

Now, #5 can be a bit tricky if you haven't been in a formal classroom in a while, but #3?!?! COME ON - that's just embarrassing!

[Denzark]

On the + side it seems that scientific literacy goes up 20% between 88 and 08 - not a bad stat for the schools in upping their game.

[heretic marine]

but #3?!?! COME ON - that's just embarrassing!


WAIT WHAT!!!

that is really embarrassing though, if you are older then 5 you should know that

[Wolfshade]

Oh noes!

Edit:

Actually, I think that as we tend to mingle with other wargamers we tend to think of ourselves as being normal or about average on the whole, and yet as a group wargamers tend to be above average intelligence (obviously everything is on a bell curve, or gaussain if you prefer). We also tend to socialise with people of similiar socio-economic status (and by virtue similiar intelligences) so while we think that these questions are easy, there are alot of people who may not, as demonstrated.

[DarkLink]

Raw academic ability is hugely overrated as a way of measuring human worth. Here's a nice little article on that subject: http://www.yesandyes.org/2012/06/youre-smart-so-what.html

[eldargal]

Quite so, you also need to take into account whether they are pretty or not.

Raw academic ability is hugely overrated as a way of measuring human worth. Here's a nice little article on that subject: http://www.yesandyes.org/2012/06/youre-smart-so-what.html

[DarkLink]

Who says charisma is a dump stat?


Anyways, I'm honestly not too surprised. As a practical matter, how many people actually need to know, or are reminded on a regular basis, the difference between a virus and bacteria? For most people, it was mentioned once or twice all the way back in high school. Not surprising that a lot of people don't remember offhand twenty years later.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

You'd be surprised, with charisma I managed to get an enemy to jump off of a cliff. :p

[Psychosplodge]

Not particularly shocking from a country where a large proportion of the population think the worlds only 6k old...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Did you see that program about the JESUS-osaurus Rex?

[Psychosplodge]

No, but I did see this, Jesus Guevara

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9hzobbk071qzozjoo1_400.jpg

[Wolfshade]

Who says charisma is a dump stat?


Anyways, I'm honestly not too surprised. As a practical matter, how many people actually need to know, or are reminded on a regular basis, the difference between a virus and bacteria? For most people, it was mentioned once or twice all the way back in high school. Not surprising that a lot of people don't remember offhand twenty years later.

Actually, there was a campaign run by the NHS over here recently, to stop people taking antibiotics for virii so I would imagine (read: hope) that it was something people were aware of.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Lolwat?

[Psychosplodge]

this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19349921
led to that^

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

No pictures! D:

[Psychosplodge]

oh, right. I was amused anyway...

[Wolfshade]

Surely, you'd realise that you couldn't paint and wouldn't do it

[Psychosplodge]

Apparently not.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

It is funny, I was just hoping for visual examples. :p

[Psychosplodge]

The video has before and after doesn't it?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Can't watch vids at work.

[Wolfshade]

:(

They've finally blokced youtube, again

[Denzark]

Raw academic ability is hugely overrated as a way of measuring human worth. Here's a nice little article on that subject: http://www.yesandyes.org/2012/06/youre-smart-so-what.html

This article espouses that 'gumption' is more important than intelligence. It also says that gumption is another term for *****.

This leads me to question:

1. Is ***** more important than intelligence?
2. If not should this woman be allowed to write articles, or should she concentrate on lowering her ***** whilst increasing her intelligence?

[Denzark]

PS the ***** is another work for **** or spooge. Don't know why it is banned if it means gumption...

[Denzark]

OK, not **** cos that's banned. Sexy wee any better?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

J!zz?

[Psychosplodge]

Sticky white love piss?

[Wildeybeast]

Those stats would surprise me if I hadn't recently found out that over 50% of your nation disagree with the concept of evolution in some way. Though when I see Ryan describing one of Romney's key features as him being prayerful, I realise why. 'Fear not Americans, in the absence of basic intelligence we can pray our way out of recession.' Sorry BR, but your country may be stuffed.

[Psychosplodge]

You don't have to look far for examples of fundamentalist theocracies... Iran anybody?

[Wildeybeast]

TBF, the Iranian government seems quite keen to invest in scientific research programmes and improve their use of clean energy. The US could learn a thing or two from them.

[Psychosplodge]

I suppose they don't stop pursing the science where it clashes with ideology they just ignore the contradiction?

[Wolfshade]

I find the young earth theory interesting, not from a scientific view, but from a social view. It was almost completly rejected by 1900s, then a period of revival came and it is now arguably more widely held then 17/18 hundreds.

[Psychosplodge]

Everythings probably more widely held population wise, but I suppose if the fringe is bigger you'll notice them more...

[Wolfshade]

I meant more in terms of %s, certainly numerically speaking it is true

[Psychosplodge]

Fair enough, scary though.

[Wolfshade]

It is.
A girl I once knew was fundamentalist, she called me a hypocrite for not believing in a young earth.
I pointed out some issues with her literalist view, and that she insulted me and so should apollogise (as a basic tenant of Christian theology) and I never heard from her again.

[Psychosplodge]

...
Yeah I know someone that you can't challenge them on it or they delete/block you on fb...
lovely person otherwise but take it far too seriously.

[wittdooley]

TBF, the Iranian government seems quite keen to invest in scientific research programmes and improve their use of clean energy. The US could learn a thing or two from them.

Not to straight call BS, but I sincerely doubt that.

It's not that we have things to learn... it's that the onus to bring information we probably already have forward is suffocated by the companies that dictate so much of our public policy in the US. We've had electric cars, and incredibly functional ones, for like, 40 years in the US. They weren't popular sooner because the car and oil companies didn't want them to be. Now, one of the left's primary selling points to young people is "being Green."

Also, I think you sincerely overstate the ignorance of the Christian population in the United States. For every 1 supervocal ignorant Christian that doesn't believe the Earth is older than 6,000 years old, you have droves of educated, intelligent Christians that don't have such myopic views. I don't particularly care, but somehow recently it became really vogue in the US to be agnostic and to belittle those that are religious. For the people that are all about equality and picketing Chick-Fil-A and blah blah blah, they're really quite INTOLERANT of anyone that is religious at all. I dont really get it.

And here's the problem with any education stats you see regarding the USA compared to other countries: We are NOTHING like the countries we're compared to. Here are some of the main differences:

1. We are multiple times larger, both in population and in area, than pretty much every country we're compared to.

2. The United States is far more diverse than the majority of the countries we are compared to. That means we have more languages, more family backgrounds, and more social issues to deal with regarding that diversity.

3. The United States system, unfortunately, isn't set up like many of the European countries we're compared to. Essentially, in many of those euro systems, there are multiple 'tracks' for students, none of which are really frowned upon in those countries. In the US, we have the college prep track, and thats effectively it. We have SOME vocational opportunities in the US, but those are seen as where the "slackers and burnouts" go to goof off. I'm all about more vocational opportunities in the US, as I believe we're sending way too many people to university.

It frustrates me, because comparing the US academically to Finland is ignorant. We're nothing alike. It'd be like comparing an AP Class at a Private Prep School to a math class in a Los Angeles public school. The differences matter and it isn't necessarily appropriate to compare our WHOLE education system to one in Finland. It isn't really apples to apples. I'd be interested to see how our Public Suburban Schools compare, however, because that's more of an apples to apples correlation.

[Psychosplodge]

So really we can look at you for waht they've tried to turn ours into? Uni or nothing?

Thanks

[wittdooley]

So really we can look at you for waht they've tried to turn ours into? Uni or nothing?

Thanks

Sadly, yeah... And even as a former educator, I think that's a problem. There are kids that are more suited to trades and other functional jobs that we still need. But now its like, university or nothing. That isn't the case with lots of Central European countries, where there is specific branching off during the formative years that steers people into learning that will be more appropriate to what they plan on doing as a vocation.

[eldargal]

It's true, funnily enough (http://www.suna.org.ir/home-en.html). They are putting quite a bit of money into alternate/renewable fuel sources simply so they burn less oil which means more to sell. It's the same reason they do genuinely want nuclear power, despite claims they only want uranium for their weapons program. They do want it for that too of course but that's another issue.:rolleyes:

Not to straight call BS, but I sincerely doubt that.

[wittdooley]

Let me clarify my statement:

I don't doubt that Iran wants to proceed with their clean energy programs; rather, I doubt that they have THAT much to teach the US. It's not that we dont know how to use clean energy or renewable energy; rather, car and oil companies have directed us towards non-renewables more often than not. Again, we've had a functional electric car for 40-odd years. They've simply chosen not to produce them in the past.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, no wonder we've sabotaged their nuclear program so much. Certain aspects of it are pretty clearly intended to create nuclear weapons, and with their dedication to wiping Israel off the map no one wants them to have any nukes.


This article espouses that 'gumption' is more important than intelligence. It also says that gumption is another term for *****.

This leads me to question:

1. Is ***** more important than intelligence?
2. If not should this woman be allowed to write articles, or should she concentrate on lowering her ***** whilst increasing her intelligence?

Actually, this directly corrolates to something my dad, and several other working civil engineers, have told me.

They don't like, and sometimes flat-out won't, hire PhDs. PhDs are literally too 'smart' for their own good. They run around all over the place like 'hey we need to do a finite element analysis for structural durability with twelve degrees of freedom on this I-beam'. The real engineers just sigh and shake their heads, and get some actual work done. The PhDs get so caught up in the analysis and thinking about solving the problem, that they tend to never actually get around to solving the problem.

BTW, ***** as you use it is a british thing. ***** as she uses it is a completely different meaning in America.

[Denzark]

So why is it banned then?

Banning ***** needs a kick in the fanny.

haha.

[Denzark]

TBF, the Iranian government seems quite keen to invest in scientific research programmes and improve their use of clean energy. The US could learn a thing or two from them.

Clean NUCLEAR energy?

Yeah their investing. They want to use it to clean Israel off the planet, not lower their greenhouse emissions.

I don't hold this against them, we should do similar to France.

[DarkLink]

Because of you british people. Or maybe they use it on the east coast, too. America's not exactly a small place. Try saying 'hella' in SoCal and you just get weird looks, while it's reasonably common slang as close as some areas in NorCal.

[Kyban]

Because of you british people. Or maybe they use it on the east coast, too. America's not exactly a small place. Try saying 'hella' in SoCal and you just get weird looks, while it's reasonably common slang as close as some areas in NorCal.

I think it's just a British thing.

[eldargal]

It's more compelx than that. Iran wants nuclear weapons not to wipe israel off the map, but to protect itself from Israel. I'm not claiming Iran are saints or anything but this isn't a nefarious theocracy trying to get apocalyptic weapons, it's a theocratic government engaged in an arms race with what it sees as an aggressive neighbour. In the eyes of Iran Israel is a country with a history of aggression, whereas they haven't invaded another state since 1798. Israel has nuclear weapons, so Iran feels threatened. So Iran is trying to get nuclear weapons.


Yeah, no wonder we've sabotaged their nuclear program so much. Certain aspects of it are pretty clearly intended to create nuclear weapons, and with their dedication to wiping Israel off the map no one wants them to have any nukes.

[DarkLink]

Not to mention Iran's government is compartmentalized to a degree, which makes what they want and why they want it even more complex. I read a good in-depth article about that a while ago, wish I could find it to post it. But, yes, Israel isn't exactly helping the problem. Sometimes they're only slightly less crazy than Iran. Not exactly a clean situation.

[eldargal]

Yep, while Ahmadinejad is president he doesn't have the sort of power an American president has. There are other positions of authoiorty held by moderates and even progressives that have real power over the way things are run in Iran. Then you have the Grand Ayatollah, who while ostensibly conservative (in the Iranian sense) has issued a fatwa agaisnt nuclear weapons and is in favour of privatisation. He even supports stem cell research. But he is against art and music in universities.:rolleyes:

Actually Iran is fascinating, not at all what you expect when you get there. While there is political oppression there is not much religious oppression which is amazing when you consider it is a theocratic state. Out in the street the women might be wearing long robes but under them it is likely as not they will be wearing fashionable, western style/inspired dress. Most women won't even bother wearing the robe.
http://www.diversetraveller.com/images/articles/47/iran_girl.jpg

[Wolfshade]

Actually Iran is fascinating, not at all what you expect when you get there. While there is political oppression there is not much religious oppression which is amazing when you consider it is a theocratic state. Out in the street the women might be wearing long robes but under them it is likely as not they will be wearing fashionable, western style/inspired dress. Most women won't even bother wearing the robe.
The robes are not a religious statemnet, but a cultural thing, the quran only instructs one to dress modestly

[eldargal]

I know, but they are virtually or literally compulsory in some fundamentalist countries. I don't actually have an issue with the robes in some countries, highly practical desert wear. It just becomes an issue when peopel are forced to wear them.

The robes are not a religious statemnet, but a cultural thing, the quran only instructs one to dress modestly

[Wildeybeast]

Not to straight call BS, but I sincerely doubt that.

It's not that we have things to learn... it's that the onus to bring information we probably already have forward is suffocated by the companies that dictate so much of our public policy in the US. We've had electric cars, and incredibly functional ones, for like, 40 years in the US. They weren't popular sooner because the car and oil companies didn't want them to be. Now, one of the left's primary selling points to young people is "being Green."

Also, I think you sincerely overstate the ignorance of the Christian population in the United States. For every 1 supervocal ignorant Christian that doesn't believe the Earth is older than 6,000 years old, you have droves of educated, intelligent Christians that don't have such myopic views. I don't particularly care, but somehow recently it became really vogue in the US to be agnostic and to belittle those that are religious. For the people that are all about equality and picketing Chick-Fil-A and blah blah blah, they're really quite INTOLERANT of anyone that is religious at all. I dont really get it.

And here's the problem with any education stats you see regarding the USA compared to other countries: We are NOTHING like the countries we're compared to. Here are some of the main differences:

1. We are multiple times larger, both in population and in area, than pretty much every country we're compared to.

2. The United States is far more diverse than the majority of the countries we are compared to. That means we have more languages, more family backgrounds, and more social issues to deal with regarding that diversity.

3. The United States system, unfortunately, isn't set up like many of the European countries we're compared to. Essentially, in many of those euro systems, there are multiple 'tracks' for students, none of which are really frowned upon in those countries. In the US, we have the college prep track, and thats effectively it. We have SOME vocational opportunities in the US, but those are seen as where the "slackers and burnouts" go to goof off. I'm all about more vocational opportunities in the US, as I believe we're sending way too many people to university.

It frustrates me, because comparing the US academically to Finland is ignorant. We're nothing alike. It'd be like comparing an AP Class at a Private Prep School to a math class in a Los Angeles public school. The differences matter and it isn't necessarily appropriate to compare our WHOLE education system to one in Finland. It isn't really apples to apples. I'd be interested to see how our Public Suburban Schools compare, however, because that's more of an apples to apples correlation.

It's true, funnily enough (http://www.suna.org.ir/home-en.html). They are putting quite a bit of money into alternate/renewable fuel sources simply so they burn less oil which means more to sell. It's the same reason they do genuinely want nuclear power, despite claims they only want uranium for their weapons program. They do want it for that too of course but that's another issue.:rolleyes:


Clean NUCLEAR energy?

Yeah their investing. They want to use it to clean Israel off the planet, not lower their greenhouse emissions.

I don't hold this against them, we should do similar to France.

Ooookay, just to clarify before I get lynched I was trying to be humorous. Clearly I need to use more smilies. I was commenting on their desire for nuclear energy, which I'm sure is genuine. Nuclear weapons will just be a beneficial follow on for them. And I fail to see why countries with nuclear power/weapons get to tell others they can't have them. I don't actually know much about their research programmes compared to the US so I have no idea whether they are better than the US. Nuclear power is far cleaner compared to burning fossil fuels, though has obvious drawbacks. The best thing would be to invest heavily in nuclear power now, before gradually switching to renewable (as nuclear is far cheaper than renewable). And as for the whole Israel thing, that place has been one big cluster f&*k since we stopped administrating it after WW2 (just like most of the rest of the places we gave back), so I'm not touching that one with a barge pole.

[Wolfshade]

Nuclear is virtually limitless power.
We can extract elements from water to react,
We can reprosses the waste, for more fuel
We can reprocess the waste to make it less radioactive
Plus we have all the goodness of nuclear arms, both in terms of nuclear warheads, but also things like depleted uranium rounds.

[eldargal]

Don't worry Wildey, I didn't think you were being nasty or anything.:) Re: nuclear weapons, to quote (or paraphrase) Martin van Creveld (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_van_Creveld), Iran would be crazy if they weren't trying to get nuclear weapons.

Actually speaking of Mr van Creveld, if anyone wants to read a really good analysis of Iran, Israel and the so called Arab Spring by one of the worlds foremost military minds I recommend this article (http://www.project-syndicate.org/online-commentary/hands-on-syria--hands-off-iran) by him

[Wildeybeast]

Thanks EG, I forget sometimes that tone can be hard to convey with blank text. I marvel at the authors who seem to do it so effortlessly.

[Gotthammer]

Back on topic with some science all up in your grill:

Linked due to language. (http://sermixalot.tumblr.com/image/30543113335)

[eldargal]

Pretty much sums it up.

[Gotthammer]

Apparently it's fake, which is a bit sad due to how hilariously incongruous a comment it would be from him - but it's still on the money.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

AND AS IF BY MAGIC THE TOPIC WAS RELEVANT AGAIN.

*bows*

[Gotthammer]

As if by SCIENCE, thankyou very much!

And if we're back on the stuff:

http://biggercheese.com/index.php?comic=483


"On topic".

Edit: FINE

[DarkLink]

Apparently it's fake, which is a bit sad due to how hilariously incongruous a comment it would be from him - but it's still on the money.

He did actually condemn lack of scientific acceptance (specifically, creationism), just not with so much french.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teWaopsBuPc

[Wolfshade]

AND AS IF BY MAGIC THE TOPIC WAS RELEVANT AGAIN.

*bows*

This post thread seems to have violated space time, information has fallen out of the "light cone"

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

There we go, topic banter.

[Mr Mystery]

Oh United States of America.

You fled the Imperial nest entirely too early. You didn't finish your education, and now look at you. An embarassment to your parents! :p

[DarkLink]

We jumped a sinking ship, not dropped out of high school.

[Mr Mystery]

Into the frigid waters of not-being-British. :p

And that ship continues to chug along very nicely thank you! :p

[Psychosplodge]

This post thread seems to have violated space time, information has fallen out of the "light cone"


AND AS IF BY MAGIC THE TOPIC WAS RELEVANT AGAIN.

*bows*

My unlimited power pic was totally relevant :p


We jumped a sinking ship, not dropped out of high school.

How's that free healthcare working out for you? :D

[DarkLink]

Into the frigid waters of not-being-British. :p

I'm surprised that anyone would say anyone is frigid compared to the British, except maybe Russians. You are stereotyped as uptight snobs, after all.



And that ship continues to chug along very nicely thank you! :p

Ship is generous. I'd say... rowboat.

[Psychosplodge]

It's funny how the ones we kinda gave self governance to without any fuss are the most successful, (Canada, Australia, New Zealand) the ones that got arsey and have huge populations (US, India) have large economies (don't forget they're 150 years behind you) and bigger extremes of poverty/wealth, but not as high standard of living as the others, and the ones that just got arsey are all corrupt cesspits that struggle to feed their people... or over simplified?

[DarkLink]

You group America with India when compared to New Zealand, Australia, and Canada? Really? Even when America outranks both New Zealand and Canada on the Human Development Index (and the UK by the way), while India is 134 out of 187?


How's that free healthcare working out for you?

It's not free. Not for us, nor for you. Taxes pay for it. No one has free healthcare.

[eldargal]

You mean a sinking ship that went on to form the greatest post-gunpowder empire in history?:p

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

So long as that gunpowder didn't explode... That really would make us sink.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

You mean a sinking ship that went on to form the greatest post-gunpowder empire in history?:p



Actually if we are talking strictly in land covered, the British empire is to this day the largest empire in human history, even beating out Genghis Khan's if only by a little. For a long time the sun really did not set on the british empire. So really you dont even need the "post-gunpowder" modifier there.

[eldargal]

Well, warfare changed so much with the advent of gunpowder it is difficult to compare empires fairly based just on land occupied or population.:)

[Emerald Rose Widow]

Well, warfare changed so much with the advent of gunpowder it is difficult to compare empires fairly based just on land occupied or population.:)

that is a fair point

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Requires more explosions.

[Gotthammer]

Even when America outranks both New Zealand and Canada on the Human Development Index

By 0.002, hardly a margin worth trumpeting. Or if you want split decimals Australia, who I note you left off your list, outranks the USA by 0.019 - 950% on your great lead over NZ.

Thus, as a documented Ubermensch I decree that you shall be grouped in with India and you'll like it :cool:

[Uncle Nutsy]

regarding OP:

that's just sad.

[DarkLink]

Thus, as a documented Ubermensch I decree that you shall be grouped in with India and you'll like it :cool:

Oh, that's cool. At least we're not Canada, or New Zealand. They might as well by Afghanistan, they're so low on the list. And god help anyone living in the UK.

And it would be kind of silly to list Australia as a lower ranking country when it is one of precisely three nations that rank higher by a tiny margin.


You mean a sinking ship that went on to form the greatest post-gunpowder empire in history?:p

No, we were visionary. We totally foresaw that you'd lose everything in a couple of world wars a hundred and fifty or so years later.

[scadugenga]

Do we really need yet another USA vs. Great Britain vs. the world thread? Can't we appreciate differences without having to sling mud?

Or can't we just limit the US vs. GB vs. Everyone else to just one macro-thread and let people beat their metaphorical heads together like rams in rutting season in a confined locality?

[Uncle Nutsy]

Oh, that's cool. At least we're not Canada, or New Zealand. They might as well by Afghanistan, they're so low on the list. And god help anyone living in the UK.

You might want to do a little research on the Canada part... http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2010/12/07/tech-education-oecd-rank.html

[DarkLink]

Just read back a few posts, Nutsy. You'll understand. Just another internet bragging contest.

[Uncle Nutsy]

oh I know.

:)

[DarkLink]

We actually have a rather complex education problem over here. Probably the best simplification of the issue is that we have good teachers, but our teacher's unions are ruining our education system.

Thanks to the teacher's unions, which are extremely politically powerful, it's effectively impossible to enact any meaningful education reform. It's literally impossible to fire incompetent teachers, which is probably the single biggest problem we have. Pretty much all the research ever shows that a good teacher is, by far, the most important thing a school can give a student. Teachers are effectively impossible to fire, however, so we have no way of controlling the quality of our teachers. Once we hire a teacher, we can't touch them, no matter how incompetent they are. They basically have to do something criminal to get kicked out. As a corollary to not being able to fire bad teachers, it makes it impossible to single out good teachers for any sort of promotion or reward.

We also have very long summer breaks. There's quite a bit of research that shows that, during the school year, public school student actually learn just as well as any private school students, regardless of class or race or gender. The problem is, upper class students tend to have wealthy and supportive parents that ensure their education continues over the long summer break, while poor kids tend to lack that support and continued education. Over time, that lag become significant, and research attributes many of our education problems to long summer breaks.

If we can break the teacher's unions and open summer schools for everyone, many of our problems will probably sort themselves out.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Where are those vowels at America? :p

[Emerald Rose Widow]

I dont mean to be glib, but teachers are hardly impossible to fire. Last year alone we lost thousands of them as a matter of fact. So yeah, those unions are really powerful. Let us not forget the droves of teachers lost to no child left behind, but no, teachers are totally impossible to fire.

Sorry, I dont mean to be overly sarcastic, but yeah. I am not saying those unions are without power, because they do have a lot of clout, but you are being a bit hyperbolic.

[Sean_OBrien]

Originally popped over to comment on Eldargal's exile - but noticed this one. I hire technical people at my company and we actually use a head hunting agency who is global. It isn't something which is limited to the US at all:

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind06/append/c7/at07-10.pdf

There is a lot of additional comparative information buried in the various Science and Engineering Indicators studies (they come out every couple years). The general state of scientific understanding is low - but the reality is that the general level of understanding is low...period. People get a laugh when they do the "Man on the street" interviews regarding pretty much anything other than pop culture - and although I don't get much chance to watch it anymore directly, I seem to recall the same general state of things globally as opposed to being something unique to the US.

Don't weep for the state of science in the US. Weep for being trapped with above average intelligence in a world filled with morons.

[Wolfshade]

I have issues with a couple of these questions:

The continents have been moving their location for millions of years and will continue to move. (True)
This isn't strictly speaking a "known", different theories abound some of which state that tectonic activity will stop as the core solidifies. Others also suggest that they have been station for periods in time such as during Rodinia’s time.

Does the Earth go around the Sun, or does the Sun go around the Earth? (Earth around the Sun)
Again strictly speaking neither of these are true, they both orbit about a central point it just so happens that that location is within the sun, but not at its centre. Hence the sun "wobbles".

Also, I would suggest that the EU is too divergent to be a single entity, since the educational systems in Holland are hardly equivalent to Lithuania

[Sean_OBrien]

Also, I would suggest that the EU is too divergent to be a single entity, since the educational systems in Holland are hardly equivalent to Lithuania

Which is why you look at what it actually says. The EU-15 was the original EU nations; Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom - all of which are on basic parity in terms of their level of advancement. Interestingly enough though - when you add countries like Lithuania...the general score for the EU goes up...perhaps Holland is holding Lithuania down?

On the other two - you are reading more into the questions than what is asked. They don't want a proof regarding the specific theory of plate tectonics nor asking to solve for the gravitational center of the solar system. Just a basic question of does continental drift occur (True) and is the solar system Heliocentric (True).

[Wolfshade]

Ah I see, in the linked pdf it doesn't define who is included in EU15 and EU25 you see.
It is interesting that the enlarged sample does indeed score more highly than the smaller group.
The range of HDI scores are all high but still there is quite a range between 0.771 and 0.910.

In terms of reading too muh into it, I certainly see your point regarding the heliocentric, that was me being a pedant :D, but in terms of tectonic activity, all we can say for sure is that they have moved in the (geogolically recent) past and continue to do so today. As for the future that is unknown.

[Sean_OBrien]

As for the future that is unknown.

Eventually - it will likely stop. However, that is one of those things where eventually everything will stop. No new energy being put into the system means an eventual end to things. However, for the foreseeable future (disregarding the handful of 'B' sci-fi movies where they need to restart the Earth's core...) it will continue to happen for all purposes forever.

Levels of understanding though are funny like that. A lot of people view Japan as a very technologically advanced country, however they tend to have a relatively lower understanding of how the technology actually works. Conversely, emerging countries tend to have an increased understanding of how the technology works as it is more often addressed in media. Once you have running water or a functioning electrical grid (or more advanced things) you no longer consider how they work or how we got to that point. You just flip a switch or open a browser and there it always is.

Instead, the general populace in the advanced countries fill their heads with useful things like Justin Bieber playlists and which party Prince Harry did what to whom. It isn't even a question of socio-economic groups either. There is a reason that the first diagnostic point on almost every Tech support manual is to check the ON/OFF button and ensure the device is plugged in. People are dumb in general, and those simple things are some of the most common problems seen. More often than not it isn't the lower crust who are calling trying to figure out why their printer won't print or their MP3 player doesn't have their playlist on it - it is the upper crust.

[Wolfshade]

It is almost like a Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but in terms of technology/convience.

[Sean_OBrien]

For the most part.

While we are weeping for our people, might want to take a peek at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXo1hMSgTYs

Sort of like the Jaywalking videos which always get such an uproar and screams regarding the state of education in the US. I know there is one in Australia as well...though I don't recall what it is called. If you aren't familiar with the Jaywalking videos, those are helpful to see the broad spectrum which lack of knowledge covers as well - you see doctors, teachers and lawyers...students from esteemed colleges, as well as the occasional Canadian tourist. Of course, the ones who don't answer questions correctly tend to be edited out of the videos - but it still can be eye opening for the next time you are out and about.

[DarkLink]

I can totally see not knowing the primary colors. Very, very few people actually use them. Even computer and tv screens don't actually use them. In fact, according to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_color)there is no definitive set of primary colors, because the 'primary colors' depend on what range of color you're trying to reach. If you're going for the full visible spectrum, either red green blue or red yellow blue are used, but if you want a different range of the spectrum then you'll have different primary colors. Jaywalking fail, which is kind of ironic.

Edit: The geography is a pretty funny question, too. Ironically, Americans would probably answer all of those questions easily, because Paris/London/Berlin are all famous tourist destinations and are well covered in pop culture and/or history class.



I dont mean to be glib, but teachers are hardly impossible to fire. Last year alone we lost thousands of them as a matter of fact. So yeah, those unions are really powerful. Let us not forget the droves of teachers lost to no child left behind, but no, teachers are totally impossible to fire.

Sorry, I dont mean to be overly sarcastic, but yeah. I am not saying those unions are without power, because they do have a lot of clout, but you are being a bit hyperbolic.


It varies from state to state, naturally, but I'm not being nearly as hyperbolic as you say for may parts of America. After a mere two years of probation, California teachers (http://articles.latimes.com/2009/may/03/local/me-teachers3) get tenure automatically, and during that probation poor student progress is not an allowable reason for firing. Many other major cities, like New York, suffer similar problems.

So, yes, there are cases where you can fire teachers. That's irrelevant to my point, because the reason behind those teachers being fired often has little or nothing to do with their actual job performance. If a school is shut down and its teachers fired due to budget reasons, that doesn't help the kids at all.

Poor school performance, as I mentioned, is a complex problem. One of the root causes is likely something I've heard called 'failure factories (http://www.thestar.com/entertainment/movies/article/868977--blowing-the-whistle-on-failure-factories)'. Parent's are often given little choice in which local school their kids go to unless they go private (first hand experience here, my sister was forced to go to the worst of three local high schools because of petty school board politics over rezoning our districts, even though I went to the best school, and many poor communities suffer from a similar lack of choice.). So kids are stuck going to a particular school, unless you have the money to go to a private school.

Certain public schools, for a variety of reasons including terrible but still tenured teachers, consistently under perform year by year. The students completely lack motivation. Teachers fail to cover the required materiel. Faculty does a poor job of involving parents and keeping the school running well. Each year, the students fall further and further behind. These feed into other local schools as students progress with a continued lack of choice, so even a good teacher will struggle to bring the kids up to speed, and there is a similar lack of good teachers, good faculty, and good schools in this area. By the time the students reach high school, many drop out. That single-handedly is probably the biggest reason why racial minorities seem to under perform in many areas.


And, of course, most attempts to reform any of this draws out the teacher's union at the slightest hint that teacher's might be hurt by legislation, no matter how good it is for the kids. And as soon as the public hears the teachers are striking, it instantly becomes "oh, those poor teachers", and then the law gets shot down.


Now, there are plenty of good schools out there. I went to some of them. But there's a large percentage of these bad schools as well, and those are what drag the averages down so low. I went to a high school and had teachers that can compare to anywhere else in the world. My sister... not so much. She was probably one of a mere few dozen out of several hundred students to managed to claw out a decent education and get into a good college and retain any motivation to become a major contributor to society in whatever career she chose, and even then there are several specific areas in which her teacher's utterly failed her. So this is a little personal for me.

[DarkLink]

Also, I would suggest that the EU is too divergent to be a single entity, since the educational systems in Holland are hardly equivalent to Lithuania

The US is actually similarly divergent. Maybe not quite so much, but education here is mostly handled on the state and local level. Many states have exceptional education systems, and many have terrible ones relative. And sometimes it will even vary significantly from local district to district.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

Darklink:

I have never been a fan of the idea of tenure, I mean I understand where it comes from, and in many ways teachers do need protecting, but I do not like it. The idea that you can only get fired for something criminal, but anything else your protected, it just never sat right with me.

You are right it is a complex issue, especially in the more poorly performing schools in the more urban areas. You mix poor parental involvement (whether that be due to absence, multiple jobs to pay the bills, or a lack of caring it doesn't really matter.), teacher apathy in many cases (or even straight up incompetence), school systems that their teaching methods do not really work with the way many children learn, and this whole factory method of teaching that our system has standardized, there really is not one answer.

Idk, I wish I had the answers, but it is certainly more complex than "get rid of or reform the unions" because there are half a million other factors that are contributing just as much. Reforming union power might be a good first step, though that in and of itself would be...difficult at best.

[Wolfshade]

I am not sure about over the pond, but in England at least one of the significant problems we have with schooling is not so much the teachers (although I am sure that there is an equally proportional levels of bad teachers) is that there is no student parent buy in. My sister teaches physics and at a parent/teacher evening one parent had a go at my sister because their son was failing and they demanded to know why she wasn't doing more about it, she patiently explained that she could not teacher their son as he had only been to three lessons that year so far and had failed to do any of the homework set. Unfortunately, this wasn't a good enough response and the parents still thought it was down to her failings.

[Psychosplodge]

You group America with India when compared to New Zealand, Australia, and Canada? Really? Even when America outranks both New Zealand and Canada on the Human Development Index (and the UK by the way), while India is 134 out of 187?



It's not free. Not for us, nor for you. Taxes pay for it. No one has free healthcare.

Prefer this version of the HDI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_HDI) because it's apparently fairer, plus it supports my earlier argument :p

And it's free at the point of use, and I always have access to it, I don't lose it cause I was unlucky enough to be really ill at some point...



No, we were visionary. We totally foresaw that you'd lose everything in a couple of world wars a hundred and fifty or so years later.
No just your greedy upper classes


Do we really need yet another USA vs. Great Britain vs. the world thread? Can't we appreciate differences without having to sling mud?

Or can't we just limit the US vs. GB vs. Everyone else to just one macro-thread and let people beat their metaphorical heads together like rams in rutting season in a confined locality?

It's the internet, it's pretty much mandatory

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/235/3/2/my_little_biscuit_by_serhalu-d47ledw.jpg


I am not sure about over the pond, but in England at least one of the significant problems we have with schooling is not so much the teachers (although I am sure that there is an equally proportional levels of bad teachers) is that there is no student parent buy in. My sister teaches physics and at a parent/teacher evening one parent had a go at my sister because their son was failing and they demanded to know why she wasn't doing more about it, she patiently explained that she could not teacher their son as he had only been to three lessons that year so far and had failed to do any of the homework set. Unfortunately, this wasn't a good enough response and the parents still thought it was down to her failings.

IDK about yours wolfie, but I remember my school was more obsessed with uniform, punctuality, sport, and the 20-30 retards holding the other 300 in the year back than anything else.

[Wolfshade]

IDK about yours wolfie, but I remember my school was more obsessed with uniform, punctuality, sport, and the 20-30 retards holding the other 300 in the year back than anything else.

Mine was a selective school and I was in the 1st XV so the sports emphasis wasn't a problem, and the trouble makers were there because their parents wanted them so the school had parental backing. We only had about 100 in the year...

[Psychosplodge]

In theory we had streaming for maths, science, English. and a language.

In reality only the maths and science meant anything as we did individual science in the top set as opposed to double award, and in maths we sat a more difficult paper meaning more likely to get an A*.

But as the senior department staff taught these sets you often lost half a lesson while they were chasing about the arseholes in the bottom set.

[Wolfshade]

We were quite lucky we didn't have behavioural problems, or at least they weren't terribly widespread and any "escalted issues" were handled by either the head or the deputy directly, rather than senior staff. I guess this is one of the advantages of being a much smaller school, I mean I think at the max we had 800 pupils, about 300 of which were VIth form so wanted to be there.

There were 4 of us who did maths & further maths for A level all of us were predicted As and we didn't get it, now we complained that we didn't have enough contact time (we didn't finish 2 modules...) and the school stopped teaching it but it cuold be taken optionally (not part of the core A levels).

[Psychosplodge]

We were quite lucky we didn't have behavioural problems, or at least they weren't terribly widespread and any "escalted issues" were handled by either the head or the deputy directly, rather than senior staff. I guess this is one of the advantages of being a much smaller school, I mean I think at the max we had 800 pupils, about 300 of which were VIth form so wanted to be there.
We had 1500ish plus VIth form, the lower sixth was half wanting to be there and half didn't know where else to go, as by the time we got to upper sixth half had dropped out.


There were 4 of us who did maths & further maths for A level all of us were predicted As and we didn't get it, now we complained that we didn't have enough contact time (we didn't finish 2 modules...) and the school stopped teaching it but it cuold be taken optionally (not part of the core A levels).
You think that's bad? We were the first A/s A/2 type A-level, two thirds of the gcse top set took A-level maths so there was 18 of us, timetabled into small cramped rooms as usually smaller classes. The teacher while he did his best was trying to teach A-level for the first time in a decade(The teacher we'd had for GCSEs normally did it but retired with poor health) , under a new system, so we rushed the A/s section, then finished the A/2 with most a term to spare.
The class that had got nothing less than A's at GCSE got a 50% outright failure(unclassified) rate at A-level...

And physics? both the A-level physics teachers left half way through the upper sixth year, so we literally had no teacher, and no timetabled lessons. I dropped from a C near the B border to scraping an E. ¬_¬ not amused, but then they've always played games with our years education... sats, newstyle GCSE, new A-level....

[Wolfshade]

I have to say, I can't really complain about having it bad to be honest.
It was very supportive and being so small everyone knew everyone.
The only thing I would say is that if I could do it all again, I should have worked hard, rather than coasting along.

[Psychosplodge]

I doubt you'd find anybody who doesn't wish they'd tried harder at school, I know I'd have spent less time jumping through the hoops that kept me getting laid, and worried more about "the future"

[Wolfshade]

Going to an all boys school I didn't want to get laid...

[Psychosplodge]

You didn't have to do it at school....my ex from then went to school ten miles away (that probably didn't help my out of hours productivity...)

[DrLove42]

Iwas the quiet, lanky nerdy kid at school, so even if I had thought about that it'd never have happened

My prblem was I walked my GCSES (all bar 1 above B, all bar 2 A and above)an my A levels 2 A's in Advancing Physics and Maths and 2 B's.

So when i got to Uni, i'd never learnt to revise properly. That meant i didn't do as well as i could.

Uni is a sytem o 2 hours your time per subject a week, 8 hours in your own time per subject.

Have 8 subects a term....and its not suprisng most people burn out

[Wolfshade]

I suppose, but it helps if you are interacting with them and have female friends.
We started to meet girls in VIth form really donw the pub.

[Psychosplodge]

Iwas the quiet, lanky nerdy kid at school, so even if I had thought about that it'd never have happened

My prblem was I walked my GCSES (all bar 1 above B, all bar 2 A and above)an my A levels 2 A's in Advancing Physics and Maths and 2 B's.

So when i got to Uni, i'd never learnt to revise properly. That meant i didn't do as well as i could.

Uni is a sytem o 2 hours your time per subject a week, 8 hours in your own time per subject.

Have 8 subects a term....and its not suprisng most people burn out

Yeah I can understand that, I literally did the bare minimum, maybe even less at GCSE, I certainly never revised, and came away with 11 A-C's and a D (that should have been an A but I got the 2nd exam time wrong, doh)


I suppose, but it helps if you are interacting with them and have female friends.
We started to meet girls in VIth form really donw the pub.

Indeed, cadets has a lot to answer for...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I've never had a problem with women, or getting laid, or my GCSEs. :p

BACK TO WORK.

[Wolfshade]

Though some people would suggest that you should only get laid once married...

[DrLove42]

I did my time in the Air Cadets...as well as Scouts, but thats obviously all male


Though some people would suggest that you should only get laid once married...

Without sounding crude, would you buy a car without a test drive?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Do I look like I'm religious?

[Wolfshade]

Without sounding crude, would you buy a car without a test drive?
One buys houses without ever living in one.


Do I look like I'm religious?
And how does a religious person look?

Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness

Also, first time I have got multi quote to work :D

[Psychosplodge]

Though some people would suggest that you should only get laid once married...



Without sounding crude, would you buy a car without a test drive?

Indeed doc spot on, Now don't get me wrong, I don't promote promiscuity, but in a long term relationship, whats the problem? And what if you don't subscribe to the idea of marriage?



I did my time in the Air Cadets...as well as Scouts, but thats obviously all male
Yeah thats where I was, those pencil skirts are lethal... And I thought they let girls in scouts now?

[DrLove42]

One buys houses without ever living in one.


Yes but one gets it inspected and has a good look around first. And then they can redecorate and improve a house...

Also Yeah, multi-quote!




Yeah thats where I was, those pencil skirts are lethal... And I thought they let girls in scouts now?

They might do now, not back in my day :P

Yeah the uniforms were a big thing. Also helped every single girl we had was smokin hot without them....

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I still don't know how multiquote works.

[Wolfshade]

We had one girl in our Venture unit...

[Psychosplodge]

Yes but one gets it inspected and has a good look around first. And then they can redecorate and improve a house...

Also Yeah, multi-quote!



They might do now, not back in my day :P

Yeah the uniforms were a big thing. Also helped every single girl we had was smokin hot without them....
Big thing? They generally looked too small at our squadron...
I thought you were younger than me? I'm pretty sure girls could join scouts in my day, whether any actually do is a different issue...


I still don't know how multiquote works.

press the multiquote icons then click post reply when you've selected them.

[DrLove42]

I'm 24 now. I left Scouts at 13-14.... so what 10 years? Maybe they could, but we just never had any. We had some close ties to local brownie groups though

And lets face it, a woman in uniform is sexy...not matter what it is

[Wolfshade]

And lets face it, a woman in uniform is sexy...not matter what it is

Yes...
http://media.photobucket.com/image/ugly%20uniforms%20female/kca184/UglySchoolGirl.jpg

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Cerri, Eldar is all I'll say. :p

Well done on sudden best man position by the way. :D

[Psychosplodge]

And lets face it, a woman in uniform is sexy...not matter what it is

Yeah, can't argue with that...especially if they wear seamed stockings with it...

[Gotthammer]

So not to divert too much from your discussion on how you all find Girl Guides sexy but...

The Teratogenic Effects of Pure Evil on Ursus Teddius Domesticus (http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2245/pureevil.png)

[Psychosplodge]

It was more women in uniform, and how when we were cadets we appreciated the opposite sex :p

[Gotthammer]

Tell it to the feds, buddy :p

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m36eejZKFE1r5jtugo1_250.gif

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I was never a cadet. Seemed a little bit homosexual to me...
*shrug*

[DrLove42]

Its only like that if you were over the age...

When we're both 15...:P

And when you were both 18....even better

[Wolfshade]

That is most excellent.

+1 internets to you sir!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Yes. Women the same age were great at the time. :D
However...

[Psychosplodge]

I was never a cadet. Seemed a little bit homosexual to me...
*shrug*

Yes driving a warrior, shooting guns and flying planes... very effeminate :p
You're mixing it up with scouts...


Its only like that if you were over the age...

When we're both 15...:P

And when you were both 18....even better

This^ :D Or are you suggesting that reminiscing should be illegal?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I'd rather go to rock concerts and headbutt 20 year olds, but that's just younger me talking. :p

[Psychosplodge]

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

You weren't there man.

Anyway, this is the last time I'll be on until like 6.30pm

Ta-ta.

[Psychosplodge]

laters, man