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Kazzigum
08-24-2012, 02:55 AM
The Competitive, the Fluffy and Everything

Alright, I asked about the possibility of getting articles published last week and decided upon posting some here to the forums to test the waters before going to the overlords. So, here goes my big toe. It’s my first try, have mercy upon my soul…

The Competitive

Last week Reecius certainly stirred up the hornet’s nest with his article concerning how to iron out the kinks, as he sees them, to the 6th edition 40,000 rules to better suit the tournament scene. I, like many others, was immediately put off by many of the suggestions he presented. Were I to admit the truth to myself, I was simply revolted. Surprised at myself once I realized this, I set to thinking. And not just thinking … serious, deep-down pondering. I mean, why should I care so much? I am not a competitive player as it is generally defined by the gaming public. I like to do well, but I prefer the modeling aspects and the background clearly. So why do I really care what the tournament players, as they called themselves, do with the game at the tournaments? And that’s when it struck me – it’s because I don’t accept the notion that a tournament player is necessarily the same thing as a competitive player.

I’ve been playing Warhammer 40,000 for over twenty years now, since the heady days of Rogue Trader and, even more importantly, Slaves to Darkness and the Lost and the Damned. I’ll regale you with the glory of those days another time perhaps, but the important thing to understand here is that I’ve been playing a long time. Of course, ‘playing’ has a fairly interesting meaning here, as in, not actually playing the actual game much. No, I’ve spent far and away most of those years painting, modeling, tinkering with army lists, reading the novels, reading the rules, reading forums and threads about other people doing all those things, etc. But most of all, I’ve spent most of those years talking to my brother about all these things and more concerning 40K. And I love it. And I know he loves it too. But like all good gamers, our talks often wind their way to those crazy events that occurred during the various games we actually did play. As in, “Dude, you remember that time my three beastmen popped out of that foxhole, took aim at the oncoming space marines with their autoguns, but needed 6s to hit? Then I rolled that triple 6? Yeah, that was awesome.” And it’s a true story – 2nd edition, 40K tournament at Origins the one and only time they held it in San Jose. Honestly, I don’t even remember how many marines went down in that volley, or if I won or lost the game. All I do remember is that it was amazing and cool. But the real point I’m trying to make is this – we didn’t actually play over much, and when we did (do), it was at some tournament or another.

The Fluffy

Obviously, I don’t, and never have, play(ed) as much as most competitive 40K gamers. But I do nevertheless love it every bit as much as any of them – though I’ll leave that discussion for another time as well. Here’s where it gets complicated. I do consider myself a tournament player, because that’s where I’ve played most of the games of 40K that I’ve ever played. Weirdly enough, over the last fifteen years, I’ve rarely played my brother, as he and I have lived in different cities for many years. So why is it weird? Well, it seems that competitive players, who consider themselves tournament players, class me (overall mind you, none have specifically come up to me to do so) as a fluffy player who should have no input into the tournament system. Of course, this is hyperbole to a degree, but not by too much I believe judging by the comments to Reecius’ article. Reecius himself seemed confused by much of the negative feedback regarding some of his ideas and asked what I asked myself at the beginning of this article – if you guys are not tournament players, why do you care? I believe that it is this assumption that is the crux of the problem. Simply put, not all tournament players are competitive players.

As I said, I consider myself a tournament player, but not a competitive player. My brother is the same way. We’ve been to plenty of tournaments over the years – two GTs from back in the day, one Grand Waaaaggghhh, three or four Golden Gargants, the Origins tournament I mentioned earlier and a bunch of lesser tournaments of varying sizes. Probably thirty or forty over the years. Between us, we’ve won exactly zero. In fact, neither of us has won any trophy at all, except sadly enough, that we’ve both won the Dice Don’t Like Me award from two separate Golden Gargants. Him for his horrible, horrible (but super cool) Arbites army a couple years back and me for having Kharn lose in melee to guardsmen back in 3rd or 4th edition (they even stopped the tournament and announced this over the loudspeakers – thanks guys…). Anyway, the point is that I go to lots of tournaments, and it’s not to win. Hey, don’t get me wrong, I don’t just lie down. I try my best to win. But I don’t craft my army to exploit loopholes, use internet lists or otherwise build my army lists to maximize anything but the coolness factor. Oh I don’t go out of my way to use horrible units, and I recognize under/over-costed selections as well as the next guy, but I build my armies to be the cool stuff I want it to be. I spend more time with some of these miniatures than I do my wife at times, so I need to like them.

So if I know I’m not going win, why do I go to these tournaments? This is the question that I think would be directed to me by most competitive players. Indeed, having lurked my way through many a thread on BOLS, I’ve seen this sentiment expressed many times. To be honest, I don’t know that it was specifically expressed in the comments to Reecius’ article, but that is the vibe I walked away from it with. There is a sense from many competitive players that they own the tournament environment and that if you don’t play the way they do, why bother showing up? For the life of me, I can’t understand this attitude. Most people who show up at tournaments lose. If not their individual games, then the tournament itself. Yet, they keep showing up. And many are like me – we never win. Yet we keep showing up. Again, why? Well, for me, it’s because tournaments are NOT about winning.

Let me turn the question a different way. If for you, the competitive gamer, the tournament is all about winning, what happens if you stumble? Seriously. Because in a big tournament, particularly in those where comp. and other factors are minimized, if you lose once, you lose the tournament, or better put, you cannot win. So say you lose your first or second game, well now you know it’s over. You’re out of contention. So how do you enjoy the rest of your games? I’m not saying that’s all competitive gamers, I know some just enjoy playing against the best (best here meaning the most efficient competitive players) to simply test their own mettle. But in my experience, what competitive players fail to see is that most of the tournament participants are not competitive gamers, at least not in the same sense that they are (yes, I am aware that borders on nonsense). Most of the tournament players know they are not going to win, but they come anyway. To game, to meet new people and ogle their armies, to build great stories to reminisce over later and even to just hang out with our brother, who we’ve not seen in a long time.

Everything Else

So having come full circle, why do I care? Well, having pondered this, I think it’s because I realize that in both 4th and 5th edition my tournament attendance dropped (and so, too, my actual number of played games). Looking at the new 6th edition, I realize why. The new edition is to me, and I suspect many others, like what 1st and 2nd edition should have been – reeking of grim-dark cool, but with rules that are not insanely broken or overpowered in a bunch of areas. Take the Deny the Witch rule for example. It scales back the power of psychic abilities with a simple broad stroke, yet at the same time the name itself is so invocative of the setting it’s just stupid cool. I can’t really express just how much I love the little details like this in the new rules. This edition brings back much of the randomness that made the game so cool back then as well, though to be honest, I feel the complaints about much of this, particularly the random charge, is way overblown. But these bits of random are what’s important here. The game cannot be broken down into formulas anymore; you cannot simply know everything will work for you. Sometimes it won’t, and for guys like me, that’s great.

Guys like Reecius, dislike random. He is man enough to admit it, and I give him props for doing so. But contrary to what most competitive players like him believe (at least in my opinion), is that they are very much in the minority, even in the very tournaments they attend. Most of us don’t like terms like ‘mathhammer’ or ‘tabling an opponent,’ we just want to show up and play with at least a chance to win. The changes evident in this edition allow us to do so. Sometimes the dice will favor the foolish and our big gambles will pay off, rewarding us with victory even with an ‘inferior’ list. I know, it happened to me a couple times at the one 6th edition tournament I’ve so far played. It was refreshing.

The competitive crowd doesn’t like 6th and I’m not surprised. But guys like Reecius will adapt. I firmly believe they love 40K too much not to. They won’t simply switch to another system and they’ll find ways to win in 6th – they are too good not to. But perhaps it will be more challenging for them; perhaps others will sometimes win now that did not do so before. More importantly in my view, perhaps others will return to the tournament scene that had given up on it in 4th and 5th. I feel that many are excited about the rules in ways they haven’t been in years and that they will return to the fold and stop just lurking.

To close I would like to reiterate what many already said is response to Reecius’ article – give it time before you change things so drastically. And I’m not talking about the whole changing random charge to random or a base 6” or blah blah blah. I don’t for a minute believe Reecius thought that would fly, he just hates the random charge rule (as he stated numerous times), and floated that one out there in frustration. No, the proposal that disturbed me the most was the lessening of the importance of objectives and tinkering with the base missions to better cater to wider styles of armies. To me, this is completely missing the point of 6th edition. It is obvious that the designers created the missions the way they did specifically to address this very point. They don’t want armies that are poor at capturing objectives, and hence are extreme/maximized armies, to be the norm. It is obvious that they want the basic premise of the game to be about capturing and holding objectives. And that’s fine with me, because most of what curb stomped you by its very existence on the field in previous editions sucks at capturing objectives. It shouldn’t always, even mostly, be about who is more bad *** on the field of battle. Battles rarely are simply about destroying the enemy wholesale, particularly skirmish-size battles as 40K is meant to represent. There is always an objective, and sometimes by pursuing it, the less potent army can still win. This is what the new edition emphasizes and I love it again. Don’t mess with it. Embrace it.

Chumbalaya
08-24-2012, 08:01 AM
You were doing ok until you made the fatal mistake of (again) assuming that tournament/competitive play is about winning.

It's not.

It's about fun. People play 40k because they love the game, the fluff, the models or whatever. I've never won a tournament, but I'll happily show up to as many as possible just to play and enjoy the environment. Competitive players are called such because they enjoy competing. Win or lose, competitive players get their enjoyment from a close game between two good players giving their all. They go to tournaments to match up against a higher caliber of players. One-sided games aren't fun, they're tedious for both parties.

The main reason competitive types dislike random elements is because they take away player interaction and counter-play. It reduces the game from player vs player to player vs dice. "Normal" random elements like to-hit or save rolls are fine because they can be influenced by player choice, the dice involved just enough to keep things interesting. Random charges have no counter play. It's purely player vs dice. Much less player involvement than other elements. Fine for pickups or casual play, not so much for a tournament.

Another less common assumption is that every tournament is the same. Compare ETC/ATC to Nova or Astronomicon. Totally different formats, totally different styles of play, totally different target audience. 40k can be played a lot of different ways, it's usually best to find which format appeals to you most. Square pegs, round holes and what not.

So, please, before you throw your next wall of text up, do a little more thinking before regurgitating the same tired assumptions and sweeping generalizations.

Caitsidhe
08-24-2012, 08:44 AM
Chumbalaya says it all very well, concise and accurate. +1000.

There are people who like to compete, i.e. the thrill of challenging yourself and your opponents. It is part of the fun. Such people prefer the premium to be placed on their choices, tactics, and strategies over random elements. When the victor/loser of a game is decided primarily by random events rather than choices, you don't really need the other player. Their input (like your own) is academic.

I don't play 40K (or any tabletop wargames) for the social aspect. I don't need to play tabletop wargaming to get friends or have a reason to hang out. If I want to play a beer and pretzels game I will play one that is priced like an actual beer and pretzels game. I play 40K because I want to compete in a tactical wargame with my friends. Too much random transforms it into Candyland disguised for adults. No matter how you dress it up, it is still Candyland.

Last but not least, why do you CARE if other people want to change the rules and play it however they want? Hasn't the clarion call of the last ten years always been that you get with your friends and agree to whatever rules you like and play? If you don't like tournaments, don't play at tournaments, and disdain the very notion of competitive play, why do you care what other people do? Seems a bit demented to me, like that odd neighbor who is always looking into your yard and windows to see what you are up to. Let the people who want to play their way, play their way. You play however you want.

DarkLink
08-24-2012, 01:00 PM
Guys like Reecius, dislike random. He is man enough to admit it, and I give him props for doing so. But contrary to what most competitive players like him believe (at least in my opinion), is that they are very much in the minority, even in the very tournaments they attend.

You obviously don't know Reecius.

He's been playing since second edition. He has two massive, fully converted and extremely well painted armies (Eldar, and Space Marines with a Native American theme), and a 'nidz army in the works. He puts huge amounts of effort into creating a gaming community by planning tournaments and events to allow as many people as possible to play and enjoy the game, whether they be fully or competitive players.

Reecius is in the minority, just not in the way you think. He's dedicated to the hobby as a whole, whether it's painting and converting or discussing fluff or playing the game itself. If I were you, I wouldn't give him flak about that. And, in his own words, he often does this in spite of GW.




And Reecius and I (he's a friend of mine in real life) were actually discussing the random charge or 6" minimum maybe a month ago. I think I might have actually been the one to come up with that idea, though I'm not 100% certain. But the reason Reecius liked that idea was simply because random charge is frustrating. You can be 3" away from a target in completely open ground and fail and lose the game because of a bad roll on 2d6. No one should think that's a fun way of losing. I want to get stuck in combat and see stuff die. Frustration is a bad game mechanic. Why do you think so many 'nidz players were angry about their 5th ed codex?



No, the proposal that disturbed me the most was the lessening of the importance of objectives and tinkering with the base missions to better cater to wider styles of armies. To me, this is completely missing the point of 6th edition. It is obvious that the designers created the missions the way they did specifically to address this very point. They don’t want armies that are poor at capturing objectives, and hence are extreme/maximized armies, to be the norm.

This 'disturbed' you? Really? You take this game a little too seriously, I think. Chill out.

Anyways, two points. First, Reccius' mission system, the Bay Area Open scenario, has objectives in every single mission. Quite a few objectives. It's still important to be able to grab lots of objectives.

Second, you seem unfamiliar with the meta. Just as big of a problem as deathstars will ever be are MSU spam armies. Catering the game towards razorback spam lists by over-emphasizing objectives is just a big a problem as removing objectives.

See, we don't really care what GW intended for the game to be. We're big boys now. We can figure out how we have fun on our own. We don't need GW telling us how we should be having our fun for us. And frankly, GW does a very poor job of writing balanced missions. Thus, the Bay Area Open scenario, as well as the other various mission systems many tournaments around the world use.



This is what the new edition emphasizes and I love it again. Don’t mess with it. Embrace it.

So your ending message is 'play the game the way I like it, not the way you like it'? Sounds a little hypocritical when I put it like that.

Kazzigum
08-24-2012, 02:30 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure you all read the piece all the way through. This is pretty much exactly the attitude I'm talking about. You guys don't own the tournament scene and I contend that there are plenty of players that go to, or will possibly go to, tournaments that play in more a style comparative to my own. I AM a tournament player. I just don't do it the same way you do. I will concede that I don't play all the tournaments and that some locales or areas might be different. In my experience, however, there are always plenty of guys like me who are just there to have a good time without any real hope,expectation of winning.

As for Reecius, it is true that I don't know him. I can only go by what he said on his article and in the comments afterward. Honestly, I meant no disrespect. I get that competitive play goes on at tournaments and that those who are the players will rise to the top and win the tournaments. Really, I don't have a problem with that. But not all the players at the tournies play that way. I don't. I'm sure Reecius is a great guy, in fact that's what I heard. And I respect his tournament organizing and love of the game. But, to me, honestly, his article came across as an exercise in how to transform 6th edition into 5th edition for tournament purposes.

So, if anything, what I'm saying is, don't transform 6th into 5th. Let it go. You guys are good enough to win in this edition too. And I'm good with that. Just let's play the edition as it stands. Having said that, I'm not totally opposed to changing some things to accommodate tournament play. Fixed terrain and possibly fixed number of objectives seem like good time savers. And Reecius' suggestion concerning warlord traits seemed interesting. I would just steer away from the fundamental changes that smack of just changing things you simply don't like -- random charges, mysterious terrain, devaluing objectives by introducing other winning conditions, etc.

Caitsidhe
08-24-2012, 02:48 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure you all read the piece all the way through. This is pretty much exactly the attitude I'm talking about. You guys don't own the tournament scene and I contend that there are plenty of players that go to, or will possibly go to, tournaments that play in more a style comparative to my own. I AM a tournament player. I just don't do it the same way you do. I will concede that I don't play all the tournaments and that some locales or areas might be different. In my experience, however, there are always plenty of guys like me who are just there to have a good time without any real hope,expectation of winning.

There isn't a problem then. You go to the tournaments set up in the style YOU like. Other people will go to the style tournaments they like. There are enough events going on that I'm sure everyone can find a home. If you aren't finding enough tournaments that fit your "style," nothing prevents you from organizing some yourself. What I don't get is your preoccupation with how other people want to do things when it only affects you if you CHOOSE to take part.


As for Reecius, it is true that I don't know him. I can only go by what he said on his article and in the comments afterward. Honestly, I meant no disrespect. I get that competitive play goes on at tournaments and that those who are the players will rise to the top and win the tournaments. Really, I don't have a problem with that. But not all the players at the tournies play that way. I don't. I'm sure Reecius is a great guy, in fact that's what I heard. And I respect his tournament organizing and love of the game. But, to me, honestly, his article came across as an exercise in how to transform 6th edition into 5th edition for tournament purposes.

If you intended no disrespect, I'd hate to read your articles when that is your design. :)


So, if anything, what I'm saying is, don't transform 6th into 5th. Let it go. You guys are good enough to win in this edition too. And I'm good with that. Just let's play the edition as it stands. Having said that, I'm not totally opposed to changing some things to accommodate tournament play. Fixed terrain and possibly fixed number of objectives seem like good time savers. And Reecius' suggestion concerning warlord traits seemed interesting. I would just steer away from the fundamental changes that smack of just changing things you simply don't like -- random charges, mysterious terrain, devaluing objectives by introducing other winning conditions, etc.

Nobody can do anything to 6th. Different people will run events they way they want to run them just as any two players work out which rules they will and will not use. Nobody is forced to play.

DarkLink
08-24-2012, 03:03 PM
I wouldn't call it transitioning back to 5th ed. 5th ed had its flaws, and there are a lot of cool things about 6th ed. I like 6th ed better than 5th, even with the flaws.

It's just that there are some specific items that we feel GW made a mistake in including. Random Charge Length is one. The overly complex Look Out Sir and Mixed Saves wound allocation are another. Certain aspects of the Flyer rules are a third (mostly how the widespread lack of Skyfire is unbalanced for so many armies). Unbalanced book missions are a fourth.

That, for the most part, is it. There might be one or two more items (double FOC, maybe), but those four specific things are clumsy mechanics that slow the game down rather than improving it. That doesn't mean returning to 5th, but then again if that's the best fix then maybe it does.


The biggest overarching problem with 6th, and the one that the 'random is good' crowd fails to address, is that, to use Reecius' words from one of his articles, in 6th 'you roll a lot of dice only to see nothing happen'.

When I roll dice, I want to see maximum carnage for my efforts. I'm not playing the game for the sake of rolling dice, I'm playing the game to slaughter my enemies and see them driven before me. Taking five minutes to roll wounds on a complex unit with multiple characters and mixed saves is not fun. Rolling snake eyes on a charge that will decide the game is not fun. Charging in to a massive, game-deciding assault is fun, but failing to let that assault happen at all ruins that fun.

Random is certainly vital to many aspects of the game. But I want to get maximum death and destruction for the dice that I roll. I want the game to be fast and smooth and for most of my opponent's army to be dead by turn 4 (and my opponent wants the same of my army). I do not want to spend an extra thirty minutes a game rolling a d6 to determine this trait, then another d6 to determine that one, then another d6 to determine if it's nightfight now, then another d6 to determine if it's nightfight later, then a d6 to determine if I can charge, and another d6 for this and another for that and so on.

Maximum play time, for minimum effort, combined with a wealth of tactical and strategic options, with well balanced armies. That's the ideal we should be striving for. Some aspects of 6th move in this direction (hull points are great, and the new reserve rules are a step in the right direction for the most part). Others go the opposite way entirely.

daboarder
08-24-2012, 07:09 PM
You obviously don't know Reecius.

He's been playing since second edition. He has two massive, fully converted and extremely well painted armies (Eldar, and Space Marines with a Native American theme), and a 'nidz army in the works. He puts huge amounts of effort into creating a gaming community by planning tournaments and events to allow as many people as possible to play and enjoy the game, whether they be fully or competitive players.

Reecius is in the minority, just not in the way you think. He's dedicated to the hobby as a whole, whether it's painting and converting or discussing fluff or playing the game itself. If I were you, I wouldn't give him flak about that. And, in his own words, he often does this in spite of GW.




And Reecius and I (he's a friend of mine in real life) were actually discussing the random charge or 6" minimum maybe a month ago. I think I might have actually been the one to come up with that idea, though I'm not 100% certain. But the reason Reecius liked that idea was simply because random charge is frustrating. You can be 3" away from a target in completely open ground and fail and lose the game because of a bad roll on 2d6. No one should think that's a fun way of losing. I want to get stuck in combat and see stuff die. Frustration is a bad game mechanic. Why do you think so many 'nidz players were angry about their 5th ed codex?




This 'disturbed' you? Really? You take this game a little too seriously, I think. Chill out.

Anyways, two points. First, Reccius' mission system, the Bay Area Open scenario, has objectives in every single mission. Quite a few objectives. It's still important to be able to grab lots of objectives.

Second, you seem unfamiliar with the meta. Just as big of a problem as deathstars will ever be are MSU spam armies. Catering the game towards razorback spam lists by over-emphasizing objectives is just a big a problem as removing objectives.

See, we don't really care what GW intended for the game to be. We're big boys now. We can figure out how we have fun on our own. We don't need GW telling us how we should be having our fun for us. And frankly, GW does a very poor job of writing balanced missions. Thus, the Bay Area Open scenario, as well as the other various mission systems many tournaments around the world use.




So your ending message is 'play the game the way I like it, not the way you like it'? Sounds a little hypocritical when I put it like that.

Seriously Darklink GET OVER THE "HE'S MY MATE"!

You've brought it up in a number of discussions as a justification against whatever the poster is posting, our opinions are based solely on the way the subject presents themselves to us in their chosen media (writing). Do not have a go at people "Because they just don't understand us man". I'm glad you play with us but when you post like that it really comes across as if your saying "well he's my mate so our opinions are totally worth more than yours.

DarkLink
08-25-2012, 01:53 AM
Except I was saying "he's my mate, so I can tell you that's not what he meant by X and/or here's the reasoning behind it that you might have missed". But whatever. Besides, this is the internet. We're supposed to back up arguments with unverifiable claims. Did you know I can bench press more than you can?

daboarder
08-25-2012, 02:06 AM
Eh maybe!

But I know how to break the hydrogen bonds in your DNA and RNA apart.....

:p

Chumbalaya
08-25-2012, 03:53 PM
I don't know where you got your copy of 5th ed, but mine sure doesn't have allies, flyers, LOS! or anything like that.

Sounds remarkably similar to 6th.