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Daemonette666
08-20-2012, 08:35 PM
I looked back 8 pages to see if the question had been asked before. If it was then point me to the thread thank you.

Here is the question: I want to charge a unit with 2 or more units. As an example lets say a Plague Marine unit, a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh and a Noise Marine Unit. The enemy Grey Hunters Space Wolf squad has 2 melta guns and their normal bolters.

Does the unit being charged get to pick who they overwatch shoot at? I declard the Plague Marines as charging first, then ask the opponent if he will overwatch shoot at therm. He asked if I were going to charge with other units, and I said yes, so he opted to not overwatch against the Plague Marines. I rolled the charge distance then moved the plague Marines into close combat.

I then declare the Daemon Prince is charging, and now the opponent wants to use his overwatch. I tell him he has opted not to use it, and argues that he can overwatch any unit that charges him in the turn provided he was not locked in combat the previous turn. I disagree, and try to show him the section on overwatch,. He continues to argue his point and since he has argued with me on the rules, for most of the game, and I am sick of arguing, I let him overwatch, and he causes 1 wound on the DP from a Melta gun. I charge the DP then charge in the Noise Marines. In that round of CC I kill his squad and he did not even get to attack me back even though he was successful in his counter attack roll. His models were removed before they got to the Initiative 4 phase.

The person running the tournament was not available to ask a clarifying question at the time as he was filling in to make numbers so the odd person out (day two, 1 player did not turn up) actually got to play a round of combat.

How do I handle opponents like this in tournaments, he would not dice off, and wanted to delay the game for as long as possible looking up rules. I asked the TO a couple times to resolve his disagreements on my use of legal tactics. He even had a few rules he could not substantiate, and I was able to turn to the relevant page and show him, that he was wrong. I gave him a poor score on the results sheet (fudged his moves to get an extra inch or 2 out of the move, argued about rules, did not explain which dice were for which weapons for a couple rolls.

I had even helped him out a couple times when he forgot to move or shot a unit before going to the next phase, and I allowed him to move it or shoot with the unit, and he said he did not need my help. A thoroughly most unpleasant game to play.

It was the last round in the tournament, and I was glad I beat him. It put me in third place, behind a very powerful Space Marine Army and the winner Orks led by Ghazghul run by my friend Rob C. whose army was not an overly powerful army. He did have 2 fliers, but they had to face my 2 hydras and Icarus Quad gun.

My other friend who played in the tournament Rhys who ran Daemons with CSM allies and only played for the first day because of work, told me my army was , for my standards, not a cheesy army. He also told me I played very tactically for a change. Rhys has a way of making me cancel my plans or tactics, splitting my force, and making it so I have to notice some nasty daemon units attacking me in the rear, or against a vital point I wanted to hold.

Grud on a Greenie, I can waffle on. :D

Anyway, how does everyone else handle people like my space wolf opponent who had a very cheesy army list, and try to win at all costs?

Can I get a ruling for the scenario I mentioned before with 3 units charging the Grey Hunters?

Thanks for any replies that solve my problem.

TDA, no silly trolling remarks now. LOL Except for the waffling thing. OK.

krittoris
08-20-2012, 09:11 PM
you declare charge with your first unit (ie plague marines) he can choose to overwatch or to not overwatch.

you then declare your daemon prince is charging, if the plague marine squad made it into assault then he does NOT get to overwatch the daemon prince since he is now in assault.

if the plague marine squad did NOT make it into assault, then he may still overwatch your daemon prince since his grey hunters are not considered in assault.

in this case you are mostly correct, you can opt not to overwatch the first unit but you run the risk that the unit will get into combat with you and you wont be able to get a chance at the second unti.

DarkLink
08-20-2012, 09:54 PM
Right, you move one assaulting unit at a time, not all of them at the same time. You can choose not to overwatch the first charging unit, but then if they lock you in combat you can't overwatch anyone else.

da_WaaaghMaster
08-20-2012, 09:54 PM
you declare charge with your first unit (ie plague marines) he can choose to overwatch or to not overwatch.

you then declare your daemon prince is charging, if the plague marine squad made it into assault then he does NOT get to overwatch the daemon prince since he is now in assault.

if the plague marine squad did NOT make it into assault, then he may still overwatch your daemon prince since his grey hunters are not considered in assault.

in this case you are mostly correct, you can opt not to overwatch the first unit but you run the risk that the unit will get into combat with you and you wont be able to get a chance at the second unti.

Most of us agree this is how it's supposed to be played. Unfortunately I can see this open to rules lawyering. After going back over the assault rules, you don't actually check for engaged or locked models until the Fight sub-phase. Thanks GW! Next time I suggest you simply not show sportsmanship to such an obvious douchebag. ;)

incenerate101
08-20-2012, 10:15 PM
I have to say i have had an opponent such as this. The way i generally handle it is by simply stating that he is cheesing his movement and must clarify which weapons are which dice or roll them separately. If he continues to do so then I whip out my phone and take video evidence of his cheating ways and once the round is over win or lose present the evidence to a tournament official. While you cannot get around his blatant rules lawyering to delay the game but you can get him on everything else.

And yes if you opt to not overwatch and get locked in combat you cannot overwatch a 2nd unit that is assaulting you.

Daemonette666
08-20-2012, 11:44 PM
Thanks everyone. Sometimes I think we need to vent when we have, as you say a douche bag, opponent. In a friendly game, you can just opt to not play. finish the game early, and never play that person again, but in tournaments, it is a whole different thing.

I must admit I did move a few miniatures an extra inch or so not realizing it, because of the angle I was looking from, but when it was pointed out to me I re measured, and put a marker where the front of the base was before I moved the Daemon Prince in behind the rubble building. I did not whinge or bicker, just apologised and kept playing.

It did feel good to beat him after that game. He never left any scoring units on his objective , and except for 2 long fangs squads moved everything up, or dropped them via drop pod right into my deployment zone where I had all my forces and concentrated fire. He killed my warlord and most expensive non HQ unit though.

Daemonette666
08-21-2012, 01:20 AM
I think I know how he misunderstood the rules regarding overwatch and only being able to shoot at the first unit to get into assault/ close combat with his unit.

I the charge section it says " The charging unit now moves into close combat with the unit(s) it has declared a charge against - this is called a charge move."

For half a second, I almost thought I read it as - The attacker now moves into close combat with the unit(s) it has declared attacks with. But then I re-read the paragraph, and realised my error.

Also in the right hand column of page 22, it has a section for "Declare next Charge"

da_WaaaghMaster
08-21-2012, 01:36 AM
I think I know how he misunderstood the rules regarding overwatch and only being able to shoot at the first unit to get into assault/ close combat with his unit.

I doubt he misunderstood the rules at all; he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt IMO. I think (the point I was making above) he was trying to "creatively" interpret the rules. Overwatch fire occurs during the "Declare Chrages" sub-phase, units aren't described as engaged or locked in combat until the "Fight" sub-phase. People like this will always pop up in tourney play. Unfortunate really.

thelion
08-21-2012, 04:58 AM
you declare charge with your first unit (ie plague marines) he can choose to overwatch or to not overwatch.

you then declare your daemon prince is charging, if the plague marine squad made it into assault then he does NOT get to overwatch the daemon prince since he is now in assault.

if the plague marine squad did NOT make it into assault, then he may still overwatch your daemon prince since his grey hunters are not considered in assault.

in this case you are mostly correct, you can opt not to overwatch the first unit but you run the risk that the unit will get into combat with you and you wont be able to get a chance at the second unti.

ok the only thing i see with this is that from the way i understand the assault rules is that you must declare all assaults before the person being assaulted chooses to snap fire.(overwatch) that is the way my groop understands it and the way we have been playing it.

Daemonette666
08-21-2012, 09:11 AM
ok the only thing i see with this is that from the way i understand the assault rules is that you must declare all assaults before the person being assaulted chooses to snap fire.(overwatch) that is the way my groop understands it and the way we have been playing it.
After my experience on the weekend, I have been studying the Assault rules very carefully. On the first page of the assault sectin (page 20) there is a paragraph titled - Charge Sub-Phase.

In this it says the following word - for - word.

It's time for your warriors to hurl themselves into the close combat and carry the day through bitter melee.

To resolve a charge, use the following procedure:

. First pick one of you units, and declare which enemy unit it wishes to charge.
. Then, the target enemy unit gets to make a special kind of shooting attack called Overwatch (see Opposite)
. Once Overwatch is resolved, roll the charge distance for the unit and, if it is in range, move it into contact with the enemy unit - this is sometimes called 'launching an assault'.

Once this has been done, you can either choose to declare a charge with another unit, or proceed to the Fight sub-phase.

I think this makes it clear. Each unit is charged one at a time. If you do not make it in, and the enemy unit did not overwatch, then the enemy unit can overwatch the next unit that declares a charge against it, up until you have a unit in close combat with that enemy unit. The enemy unit would then be considered locked in close combat.

This means, that you can charge in a large cheap Gretchin unit to take the overwatch, and then charge the large Ork choppa boyz Unit in second. In my case I send the tough Nurgle Plague Marines in first, followed by the Daemon Prince, and then the softer (compared to the other attacking units) Noise Marines.

If you read each sub heading - Declare Charge, Resolve Overwatch, Roll Charge Range, Charge Move and Declare Next Charge, it will all make sense. It actually makes sense, providing you have the time to read it. Which I did not in the tournament, because he had already stalled for time with previous rule arguments.

da_WaaaghMaster
08-21-2012, 02:02 PM
I hate to keep beating a dead horse, because I agree with you on how charges are handled. My point is, it is absolutely NOT clear as far as the rules are concerned. We all agree that as soon as two enemy models are in base contact, their respective units are "locked" in combat, and are no longer able to use Overwatch. The problem here is that GW doesn't mention "locked" until the Fight sub-phase. This slight oversight is what I fear argumentative players will try to abuse to use Overwatch fire when being multi-assaulted.

The argument being: You use Overwatch during the Declare Charges sub-phase, the only restriction to using Overwatch is if the unit has already used it, or is already "locked" in CC. Nowhere in the Charge sub-phase (except the Overwatch restriciton) does it mention "locked" in CC. "Locked" in combat is checked for during the Fight sub-phase.

As I said, very creative rules lawyering, exploiting an oversight on GW's part. I haven't encountered it yet, but the potential for shenanigans is there.

Daemonette666
08-21-2012, 10:17 PM
OK, I understand what you meant - now. I noticed also that you do not need to declare each charge that you intend to do, until a previous charge has been fully resolved. On page 22 , under "Declare next charge".

I would liken this to the big Nobz or the Large Boyz mob forcing the Nerfun Punee Grotz forward like cattle into the fight to soak up the enemies overwatch shooting. The Chaos Marines do the same with their cultist troops.