A Tale of 3 Fliers

[DrLove42]

One of the biggest shifts in the 6th ed rules are the introduction of fliers into 40K. However, at this point all the fliers we have had their rules before 6th eds introduction (you could argue otherwise with StormTalon and the Orks…)

So this is a look at 3 different fliers. We have;
- The Eldar Nightwing. An example of an old model made good, made bad again
- The Vendetta. The first of the fliers, with rules from an age with no fliers in the game
- The Necron Night Scythe. A flier written with 6th solidly in mind

In this we will look at each of the fliers and see how the approach to their rules varies and how it applies in a 6th ed environment

Protection
Nightwing – AV 10/10/10. 2 HP. Shrouding and a 2+ evade save
Vendetta – 12/12/10. Extra Armour. 3 HP
Night Scythe 11/11/11. 3HP. Living Metal
Got to say the Vendetta wins this round. The extra armour in all but the side means it is much less likely to take a damage roll. The Nightwing, has a decent chance of surviving, thanks to that 2+ evade save, but sacrifices all chance of being an effective shooter to do so. And being 2 HP and AV10 means you will be evading a lot to ensure your survival as even a squad with bolters is a threat

Armament
Nightwing – 2 Cannons (2 x 3 shots S6 AP5) and 2 Lances (S8 AP2 Lance) at BS4
Vendetta – 3 Twinlinked Lascannons (S9 AP2) and 2 Heavy Bolters (2 x 3 Shots S5 AP4) at BS3
Night Scythe – 1 Twin Linked Tesla Destructor (4 Shots, S7 AP- + Additional Hits on a 6) at BS4
2nd round to the Vendetta with the Necrons close behind. More firepower on a normal turn of shooting for the Vendetta, with twinlinked to make its snap shots better if it evades. The Necrons do well here as well, with a single snap shot hit giving them 3 hits. As previously mentioned if the Eldar go evading so they can survive, they only hit on their 6’s as normal.

Transport
Nightwing – None
Vendetta – 10 guys, can be deployed on the move. (Virtualy guaranteed to be) wounded on destruction
Night Scythe – 15 guys, go back in reserve if destroyed
Necrons win here. The fact the guys inside live to fight another day is good for them, even if they must come on from the back. Beats being killed on a 2+ for the Guardsmen

Any Other rules?
Nightwing- Agile (+1 evade save, gives us the 2+), Vector Dancer. Fast Attack Choice
Vendetta – Searchlight. Fast Attack, Squadrons
Necrons – Can’t think of anything – Ded Transport

The Nightwings ability is very situational here, the Vendetta’s searchlight can be great, particularly if the enemy is dug in in the last turns if you have night fighting as it can get there good and fast. The fact the Necrons are a ded transport is a big boon to them in how many you can take as well

Cost –
Nightwing – 145pts
Vendetta – 140pts
Night Scythe - 100
Despite not winning a single category the nightwing is the most expensive of the lot. Bear in mind pre 6th when these guys all just counted as skimmers, it had the same cost, but had a permanent 4+ invulnerable, and for apoc rules was the only one of this choice with AA mounts.

Long story short – as everyone knows the Vendetta is disgusting,the Necrons are pretty good and the Eldar are being screwed again.

Nothing new there then

[eldargal]

Email it to FW.:)

[TSINI]

Email it to FW.:)

lol, don't blame Forgeworld, When they designed the rules for the Valkyrie in IA1 it was Armour 11,11,10, no extra armour as standard, and cost 140 points with only the multilaser and door heavy bolters. replacing the multilaser with a lascannon cost 10 points, and could be upgraded with hellstrikes for 20 points, or rocket pods for 50.

When GW decided to port the valkyrie to the codex, it wasnt enough to give it a triple twin lascannon toting version, but they reduced the points, increased the armour and gave it extra armour as standard, Then reduced the cost of upgrades. lol!

not that I'm complaining, I've been a Guard player through and through for a loong time. I remember overhearing a GW employee complaining that "forgeworld units" ruin the game when GW brings them into the codex, like the Vanquisher - to which I pointed out the vanquisher rules were in the first "stand alone" guard codex (after 3rd ed's rulebook based codex),

[eldargal]

Oh I'm not blaming them, but if they see the Nightwing is underperforming against flyers that aren't even anti-air dedicated they might boost its rules a bit.

[DrLove42]

I'd actually argue that the Nightwing is appropriatly priced. Comapre it to a normal tank in the Eldar army with similar weaponary (Falcon, Pulse Laser and 2 Cannons) and its not too bad

whats wrong is the plastic codex fliers are dirtily underpriced to drive sales

[eldargal]

I think it needs Interceptor so it can targer flyers efficiently while evading, at present it can't do it's job as well as dedicated transports which is a travesty even if those transports were more expensive.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Is this ANOTHER Nightwing thread? For the love of the Gods!

[Defenestratus]

One thing you forgot to mention, and its actually HUGE - is that the Nightwing has Vector Dancer.

Quite simply this makes the nightwing so much better than it looks on paper. I've been running a list with 3 nightwings and a phoenix (oh dear god the Phoenix is nasty) and I have to say that I've been proven wrong with regards to the nightwing. The only thing I could ask for is an additional HP to make it equal with other flyers. The 5+ save hurts, but in reality, my NW's aren't taking any incoming fire at all hardly.

Quite simply the Nightwings are amazingly good at killing light armor and infantry.

The Phoenix with strafing run is just WRONG. Its evil, wrong and I felt guilty after using it just once.

[thelion]

ok so from what i have read here i think the real issue is that we (and gw/fw) are trying to fix an issue that is beyond serious repair. what should be done IMHO is restart the whole flyer thing. leave the flyers we allready have alone (there comes a point when you have to just accept the issues with a system and drive on) and give each codex a real sole-eating, fire-spitting, lighting-pissing, air to air unit. i mean a real dog fighter. give it some crazy super flyer rule to govern its movement, and set it up to dog fight, price it right (points and money) and make it look cool. set them up fairly even for each codex and presto! changeo! and we have a fixed working flyer system in the game that can add a new peice to the way we fight.

[DrLove42]

Kind of agree. The Vendetta was written at a time long before fliers had a rule and we just treated them as skimming.

I did rememeber Vector Dancer, but only added it this morning, cos i forgot at original time of writting. It can be useful, it can help mitigate some of the downsides of fliers. But lets face it prior to 6th when it was just a skimmer without this problem it was the same points cost

Yes the Pheonix does seem very good to me. Staggeringly expensive (lets face it its the Nightwing + missiles and BS5 on the ground targets) but seems reasonable.

And yes its another thread that has a Nightwing in it. But its all about comparing to other things, and looking a the state of fliers, not complaining about it (although it does go that way)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Oh you! :D

Seriously, why are Eldar players sad?

[DrLove42]

We're character actors....our models are sad, our species is sad, so to lead more effectivly we get into character... so are we sad as well

Also see EG's thread on why we are...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Yeah, because your army gets owned repeatedly. :p

[Defenestratus]

Yeah, because your army gets owned repeatedly. :p

Actually in 6th I've had better success with my Eldar than my Blood Angels.

[Aramel]

Yeah, because your army gets owned repeatedly. :p

Bah! Out of 13 or so games so far in 6th I've only lost once to Space Wolves and that was both my first game and due to many foolish errors. 3 of those games were ties though. The Eldar have probably the greatest variety of unit choices compared to other armies. In the past though, only a select few were competative. I find 6th has made more lists competitive than before.

I am very happy that, for now, we well and truly dominate psychic power. I also do not play Apocalypse though, where most of the problems with Eldar are. However I absolutely agree that we should have the best airforce out there, or at least be in the top 3.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Inside joke. :p

My Eldar haven't yet lost.

[Tynskel]

what about the Barracuda Air Superiority Fighter:

2 Burst Cannons (Assault 3 Str 5 AP5), Twin-Linked Missile Pods (Assault 2 Str 7 AP4), Ion Cannon (Hv 3 Str 7 AP3).
That's a lot of firepower.

[Uncle Nutsy]

yeah i've been looking at the phoenix (holy CRAP!) and the Barracuda. It looks like even the 'cuda is enough to bring down one valk/vendetta a turn. Too bad it can't target two units at once, because then it probably would drop two valks a turn.

Use that ion cannon to nail one, and the missile pods to bring down another that's been wounded.

[eldargal]

It is indeed, but that is part of the problem. I want my air superiority fighter to be an air superiority fighter, not a air-ground attack vehicle.

Quite simply the Nightwings are amazingly good at killing light armor and infantry.

[Gir]

what about the Barracuda Air Superiority Fighter:

2 Burst Cannons (Assault 3 Str 5 AP5), Twin-Linked Missile Pods (Assault 2 Str 7 AP4), Ion Cannon (Hv 3 Str 7 AP3).
That's a lot of firepower.

And the Burst cannons are auto-targeting too (ignores jink saves).

[DrLove42]

Another reason why the Nightwing is really Overpriced. Theres lots of stuff out there (right weapons, right character on a gun, right physic power) that flat out ignore cover saves. You get shot at by a quad gun that ignores cover, and you're virtually guarenteed to be destroyed before you even do anything other than come on the board

[Defenestratus]

It is indeed, but that is part of the problem. I want my air superiority fighter to be an air superiority fighter, not a air-ground attack vehicle.

About the only flyer that I can't bring down with regularity is the Stormraven. Getting behind it makes no difference.

[Hordicant]

Excellent read, one of the best systematic breakdowns of fliers attributes I have seen so far. Thank you.

[thecactusman17]

It is indeed, but that is part of the problem. I want my air superiority fighter to be an air superiority fighter, not a air-ground attack vehicle.

Thanks to VD, you should be able to easily outmaneuver any of the non-FW flyers that don't have a hover mode and get easy rear shots. My Dark Eldar would happily trade in several upgrades on their Razorwing and Voidraven jets for that.

[DrLove42]

With a New codex I figured i'd go back and look at this again, and compare the new flier against bits.

The Chaos Dragon. 170 (or 175?) points of death. But how does it stack up to the kings of the sky?

Protection
12/12/10. 5+ Invulnerable.
So its same armament as a Valk, and more than the Necron fliers. Its 5+ save means it never has to Jink as its always getting the same save, meaning you don't have to gamble survivability for firepower.

Armament
1 Hades Autocannon (4 S8 Ap4 shots) or a Flamestorm cannon (S6 Ap3, Torrent). BS3
Once you factor in BS this is on average getting 2 S8 hits a turn. Compared to the 2 S9 AP2 hits from a Vendetta and its a poor child. The flamer however is excellent, but cannot be used in the sky, limiting its AA options

Transport
None.

Other Rules
Vector Strike. Can attack other things it flies over at S7. Potentially damaging for light transports and aircraft but not that scary for the AV12 sky king, especially as it always hits side.

So its 30-35 points more than a Vendetta, 70-75 over a Scythe. In return it gets;

- Potentially more shots than a Vendetta, equal to a Scythe but without twinlinked and a lower BS unlikely to be
Those shots are worse than a Vendettas lascannons, and only marginally better against light infantry (read not marines) than the Necron
- 5+ Save permanantly. As stated means you can always get that Jink save, not have it be ignored by anti cover people and still shoot at full. Quite good, but a 5+ save is still marginal
- Vector Strike. An aircraft that can stab other things. S7 is a touch disappointing though

My thoughts....little overpriced for what it can do. But thats only compared to the other available fliers. In an isolated system, would be quite good by itself.

Its also better than a Nightwing :P

[Wolfshade]

You forgot that it looks amazing...

[DrLove42]

That too.

It amsuse me the Hades Autocannon is this massive hulking minigun on a Forgefiend. But the exact same gun is a diddy little thing in the mouth of the dragon

[Kyban]

That too.

It amsuse me the Hades Autocannon is this massive hulking minigun on a Forgefiend. But the exact same gun is a diddy little thing in the mouth of the dragon

I wonder if that implies that the scale is intentionally off?

Doesn't the dragon also have 3HP and It will not die?

[Learn2Eel]

I wonder if that implies that the scale is intentionally off?

Doesn't the dragon also have 3HP and It will not die?

Yes.

The dragon, as you say in your summary, is over-costed only in comparison to the two king fliers - night scythes and vendettas.
However, no other flyer in the game can bring the hurt to infantry like the dragon can, which fits well into the new edition.

IMO 170 is well worth it, the Helldrake is the equivalent of a redeemer being right next to you on turn 1 - it is that blindingly fast and can strike anywhere with a flamer that has an effective 50"+ range.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

STOP IT!

Stop moaning about the Nightwing! BLARARGARLGARLGRLAHARWRAARLK!

[Kyban]

STOP IT!

Stop moaning about the Nightwing! BLARARGARLGARLGRLAHARWRAARLK!

But we're talking about daemonic mechanical dragons now... :)