Ig using dh allies: Too cheesey or not?

[crazyredpraetorian]

Well, do you think using IG with DH as allies is too much? Why or why not?

[Aristus]

Hmm, looking at peoples reactions is a very good way to examine if you are to cheesy or not, try it, i did :D

Haven't really played against any opponent that allies DH with IG, but when i do im sure im going to shout "Cheese!" or something in that manner.

[Mithay]

Well I wouldn't say using DH with IG is cheesse. For me fluffwise its allright to have some Inquisitor with guard.
DH with inducted guard are rather cheese IMO. Being able to buy new land raider as dedicated transport to inquisitor who costs about 20-30 points thats bit cheese... especially when you can field 6-7 raiders in 2000 pts and still be able to put about 300pts into mass guardsmen to have a lot of troops.

[Tacoo]

280 pts gets you 55 guardsmen, wich leaves 10 points for options

[CrusherJoe]

There was a time I might have said it was cheesy...but lately I've been of the opinion that "if it's in your book, take it."

[Antipodean]

As with many things in Warhammer, it depends how you do it and why.

GKT in a Valkyrie before it was FAQ'd? Yeah we know why someone would do that, and it doesn't make any logical sense. Similar thing for PAGK in Valkyrie.

An Inquisitor (of either flavour, HQ or Elite) with some buddies like IST and/or assassin support is fine. Even some GK's or whatever. It's hard to decide without the overall picture. It's a very subjective thing though, people can cry cheese at just about anything.

[Oldgrue]

The IG platoon is one of their infantry choices. Its like crying cheese that Dark Eldar get...well anything. Those poor DE *******s.

[Jipin]

GKT in a Valkyrie before it was FAQ'd?


Which FAQ is this in? Just had a quick look back over the ones on the website and I can't see anything :confused:

[thecactusman17]

Which FAQ is this in? Just had a quick look back over the ones on the website and I can't see anything :confused:

Not a standard FAQ, it was clarified in the 'Ard Boys rules this year and will probably end up in an FAQ eventually.

BTW: No, terminators can't be used in Chimeras either. hyper cheap transport for terminators: Not Yours.

//And in response to the OP: So long as you aren't trying to exploit rules loopholes, knock yourself out. C:DH has plenty to offer your guard, not the least of which is Terminator Armor and inquisitor retinues.

[Lerra]

I remember seeing a IC with terminator armor who was able to take a Chimera as a dedicated transport somewhere, but I can't remember where. I figured Terminators in Chimeras were A-OK after that point, considering that GW seemed to approve.

[Hal'jin]

Eh, why would it be cheesy? What, spamming Guard options with GKs support? Is that really neccessary or more cheesy than Guard itself? I mean, GKs are quite overcosted.. To be honest, the only thing worth taking from DH dex are Inquisitor Lord with Mystics and the Calidus Assassin. Sure that can prove quite nasty, but still, cheesy? I'm glad people 'round here never use that word and just attempt to take on anything you throw at them with a smile.

And the other way around? Well, DH codex does have quite a hard time doing stuff itself.

[thecactusman17]

I don't think that Calidus Assassins are that great, actually. With most things hovering around Ld. 8 these days, the neural disruptor is a bit meh, the c'tan Phase Sword is at best a little ok, and the "anti-scout one enemy unit within it's own deployment zone" rule just isn't that useful in most situations.

Now, the Vindicaire is a different story. Thanks to his ability to take out vital commanders and models, he can be a terrifying choice to throw against Guard, Tyranids, Eldar and a number of other enemies. Plus, he has the ability to kill models that might otherwise prove an obstacle in close combat.

[Sangre]

I think it's dodgy mainly because it's not what the designers were planning on when they wrote the codex.

[Xaereth]

eh, I think it CAN be cheese, when certain units are used in conjunction with eachother. Culexus assasin + psychers can be a little bit ridiculous. Callidus assasin + psychers vs. multi-wound models like nobs (insta-death them on 2's) can be a little over the top as well, though granted, using a callidus to insta-death a nob biker squad would be pretty awesome, that player deserves it :P

For the most part, if people use it 'responsibly', I think it's fine. DH is a weak codex in general, and can't really bring anything TOO crazy to the table, what with guard being pretty strong as it is.

[BuFFo]

Well, do you think using IG with DH as allies is too much?

No.


Why or why not?

Taking allies is a legal choice to do.

[thecactusman17]

I think it's dodgy mainly because it's not what the designers were planning on when they wrote the codex.

Uh, you DO realize that they were written as Allies to other armies, right? That a listing of their BEST unit choices (except Heavcy Support) is right there in the codex and can be teamed up with any loyalist Space Marines or Guard army?

I think that what the designers didn't intend was for the codex to not be updated for multiple iterations of the game.

[Concentrate More]

"I think that what the designers didn't intend was for the codex to not be updated for multiple iterations of the game."

Agreed.

[warmonger]

There is no such thing as cheese. Cheese is a weak players excuse. The codex gives you your limitations on force orginisation, why must people try to limit it more by calling something cheesey. If it is allowed by the codex then use it. THERE IS NO CHEESE, THERE IS NO CHEESE. :p

[twomas_rox]

My guard are based around DH allies. I cant say that it is cheesy in any way. I have not got any complaints in my group, so i think it is fine. We do have an Eldar player that gets called cheese due to his 3 wraithlord list at 1000pts.

What would make them cheesy? The point sink in the GK's knd of makes up for it I think.

[DuskRaider]

I could see it being called cheese if you were playing against a daemon army and took an Inquisitor retinue for the sole purpose of Sanctuary. THEN I'd call cheese. But otherwise, DH and WH choices aren't really all that great anyhow, so who cares?

[Kahoolin]

I could see it being called cheese if you were playing against a daemon army and took an Inquisitor retinue for the sole purpose of Sanctuary. THEN I'd call cheese. But otherwise, DH and WH choices aren't really all that great anyhow, so who cares?Surely playing against Daemons and taking an I-Lord with Sanctuary is fluffy as hell? I can't think of many things you could put in an imperial army against Daemons that fits better with the background.

To me, if something would be likely to happen in the 40k universe and is fluffy/narrative, then it's automatically not cheesy.

And I hate to call anything cheese, but the reverse is also true IMO: A single squad of GKTs beaming down into a guard army to help them fight Tau for example is just wrong.

[DuskRaider]

Then come to the US with a 2,000 pt army and I'll field 2 Brass Scorpions against you. Hey, I play World Eaters, it's fluffy so it's cool! ;-)

[Kahoolin]

Ouch...

Thanks for the invite mate, unfortunately I play 40k so I can't afford international travel.

[DuskRaider]

Haha... Yeah, I definitely hear that one. Vacation, bills, food, gas, etc. etc. etc. or minis?..... Minis.

[Drax]

Iron hand straken with Grey knight terminators seems pretty good ...

[crazyredpraetorian]

Iron hand straken with Grey knight terminators seems pretty good ...


Yep as long as you're wearing one of these...
http://www.wisconsingoods.com/graphics/evan-allan-loran.jpg

[RocketRollRebel]

I wouldn't say that it's cheesy realy. In most standard point games adding much besides maybe an inquisitor and small retinue tends to be in my opinion points that could be spent on more tanks and guns. Which are both what guard do best ;)

[twomas_rox]

I wouldn't say that it's cheesy realy. In most standard point games adding much besides maybe an inquisitor and small retinue tends to be in my opinion points that could be spent on more tanks and guns. Which are both what guard do best ;)

True. The points you spend on GKT's can be used for alot more men and tanks.. so i dont see the cheese in it. Plus, i don tthink an Inquisitor would not call on the Guard to purge a sector, because it is unfair to the enemy.. right? He is going to take the biggest and baddest stuff available to him. And if the enemy does not have anything to fight it off, then looks like they chose the wrong side to me.

[Zombie Savant]

I have used WH and DH allies for as long as I've been playing guard, and I would definitely make a case for them being fair on almost level.

A lot of the units from both the WH and DH codexii are so over-costed and under-effective that on their own they struggle in today's environment. Their rules are solid, but they were made under a different design philosophy.

There are a lot of excellent synergies that exist now within other codexii that you can capitalize on, and the effectiveness, while certainly potent, truly is regulated by 3rd edition costs.

Psyker Battle Squads really mesh with assassins like the callidus or culexus, Iron Hand Straken makes about just about any elite close combat unit better, and the specific strengths of grey knights are complemeneted by the guard's native long range killing power.

[Coyote]

It surprises me that this is even a debate. That being said I really don't think it's cheese. As everyone else has said the DH options no matter how powerful take a lot of valuable points away from an IG player. I also don't think it's cheesy to put power armored GK's in a Valk. It's not a dedicated transport just like the Land Raider isn't, but it's a lot more fragile so there is a certain risk involved in putting a unit that costs over 200 points in in a vehicle that could be wrecked on an immobilzed result. Besides if you look at the Ard Boyz clarification it says no GKT's (if I remember correctly) but mentions nothing about PAGK's. I'm pretty sure if they were thinking about GKT's when they made that clarification then they probly also thought about PAGK's.

I know there are some out there that will say they wouldn't play against someone who tried this but around here we are a little more cut throat. We still have lots of fun and it forces us to flex our tactical mind as well.

Just my 2 cents.

[Greeny]

I think there were far more options to be 'cheesy' back in the day, when there were more loopholes in the game. These days, they seem to know what they are doing and if its in the codex then just go for it.

Having said that, I am kinda tempted to run 2 squads of 5, DH Inquisitorial stormtroopers with 2 flamers or 2 melta guns in a chimera with heavy flamer turret and heavy flamer on the front, using up the 0-2 troop choices allowed in an allied DH army... then doing the exact same thing with the WH's allowed 0-2 troops in an allied army (since they are pretty much just the same troops choices but in different books), then running around with Vulkan and my twin linked heavy flamer razorback riding space marines carrying thunderhammers...

is that cheesy? >.>

[Zombie Savant]

No, it's not, as a matter of fact, for one reason: the dedicated transport for Inquisitorial Storm Trooopers is the old-cost chimera. The 70 point one, before options. That's their main issue -- otherwise, there not bad.

So if you don't mind foot slogging or paying that much, then go for it. You could probably do just as well with tons of marines, I'd think. (Rhinos for them are 50 points as well, just FYI.)