Broken armies, Codex creep, Disadvantages, and Excuses

[therealjohnny5]

Ok first i'm not trying to start a flame war, but to get some input on a situation i constantly come into contact with on this forum and in games.

Ultimately we play this game bc we love it i should hope and we have fun doing it. That being said i consistently hear about codex creep and broken armies, and i comment on what i think needs fixing as much as the next guy, however if our only goal in playing it to always come out on top or to uber destroy the other guy by having the super hit combo\ death unit from hell that can't be touched, what's the point.

What i mean is this, I work on a list that is a balance of fluff and competitiveness. Then i don't care who i play and what their build is, use the list. My armies are like 2500 pts usually and i'll remove from the list for each game based on points but i like the idea of these are my set options and i have to learn how to win with what i have, regardless of disadvantage. Prime example, last night our group played. 1 tau, 1 Nid, me with with orks. we did 600 pts, 1 hq and troops only. king of the hill scenario where you had to capture the hill and hold for 1 complete rd uncontested to win, or until turns ran out. The Nid player was whining bc of synapse, ok i can understand that but "Bro, it's the freakin army you play. Deal with it. it's what makes the Nid's the Nid's" I fielded 600 pts of orks with one 5 man Nob squad with pain boy, 1 warboss, 1 20 man ork boys mob with Nob bc that's all the orks i have. I wanted to play them. i was waaay at the short end of the stick with the other two guys, especially the Tau player. It so happened i won, but i thought i was going to eat it before the night was over bc of my disadvantage. But that didn't upset me. made it more fun. I play primarily Raven Guard. I limit myself to their battle doctrine of close combat, aggressive, stealthy tactics with little heavy support. Now that puts me at a great disadvantage in many games, but that's the army i picked. As a marine player my HQ's are crazy expensive, i'm limited to small squad numbers. So what, that's how my army is made and i knew that when i decided to play them.

I will willingly place myself in games at a disadvantage just to see if i can tactically do some damage. But the guys in my crew and some on this forum think it's the end of the world if someone else seems to have an apparent upper hand in a game. Is anyone else ok with lopsided games or scenarios?

Point being of this post is, If we pick an army to play, knowing it's strengths and weaknesses, and then piss and moan about those same things when they are exploited or used poorly due to our own tactical decisions, How dumb is that? All I'm saying is that yes we can complain about codex creep, and GW screwing us, but when it boils down to it we all choose to play the game and with the armies we do, so shouldn't we suck it up, have fun, and not be afraid to lose so we can learn to play more tactically?

Or am i alone on this one?

[Aldramelech]

I like what I like and I do what I do. My armies are all about what I think the army should be, Looks and Feel, whether its competitive comes pretty far down the list for me.

But I play for fun only, I don't do tournaments.

[Melissia]

People have made the claim that Sisters are broken.

I have made claim that people are idiots. As often as possible.

[Lerra]

I'd love it if people stopped whining and just got on with the game - but realistically, people invest a lot of time and money into an army, and most people are rather attached to their style of list. I keep playing Deathwing because I enjoy it, even if it's not as competitive as most of the lists I play against.

It does get challenging when you've got a mix of player types. Competitive players often have a bias that "Only bad players have bad lists - if you were more intelligent you would run a different army." A common response to that attitude is whining that it's the weakness of the codex, not the weakness of the player. I don't mind losing to a better list or a better tactician - I do mind the insinuation that I am a lesser player because I chose to play a less competitive list.

I play at tournaments to win, but also to have fun and get free pizza. Some people are there for the cash prizes, others just to meet new people. Every now and then we get a player showing up to a tournament because he wants to play 5th ed for the first time. Any time you have a range of people like that, there will be friction, and I'm not sure there is a way to deal with it. It's human nature to do everything in your power to win. It's human nature to whine when you play against "that guy" who alpha-strikes you off the table at the top of round 1.

[Aldramelech]

I'd love it if people stopped whining and just got on with the game - but realistically, people invest a lot of time and money into an army, and most people are rather attached to their style of list. I keep playing Deathwing because I enjoy it, even if it's not as competitive as most of the lists I play against.

It does get challenging when you've got a mix of player types. Competitive players often have a bias that "Only bad players have bad lists - if you were more intelligent you would run a different army." A common response to that attitude is whining that it's the weakness of the codex, not the weakness of the player. I don't mind losing to a better list or a better tactician - I do mind the insinuation that I am a lesser player because I chose to play a less competitive list.

I play at tournaments to win, but also to have fun and get free pizza. Some people are there for the cash prizes, others just to meet new people. Every now and then we get a player showing up to a tournament because he wants to play 5th ed for the first time. Any time you have a range of people like that, there will be friction, and I'm not sure there is a way to deal with it. It's human nature to do everything in your power to win. It's human nature to whine when you play against "that guy" who alpha-strikes you off the table at the top of round 1.

You get free Pizza?????????????? Man I live in the wrong country!

[therealjohnny5]

People have made the claim that Sisters are broken.

I have made claim that people are idiots. As often as possible.

LOL..hysterical.


I'd love it if people stopped whining and just got on with the game - but realistically, people invest a lot of time and money into an army, and most people are rather attached to their style of list. I keep playing Deathwing because I enjoy it, even if it's not as competitive as most of the lists I play against.

It does get challenging when you've got a mix of player types. Competitive players often have a bias that "Only bad players have bad lists - if you were more intelligent you would run a different army." A common response to that attitude is whining that it's the weakness of the codex, not the weakness of the player. I don't mind losing to a better list or a better tactician - I do mind the insinuation that I am a lesser player because I chose to play a less competitive list.

Ditto...and Ald i want pizza too...maybe i should start playing tournies?

[Kanaellars]

People have made the claim that Sisters are broken.

I have made claim that people are idiots. As often as possible.

How is it that you are so sad you must make every thread about the Sisters?

I am sure that I am as devoted to my Wolves as you are to your Sisters, and yet, I CAN comment on a thread without mentioning them.



So far as the topic goes, I choose an army I like, I build an army I like.

I played them through a lot of bad times....

Now though, things are starting to come good!

[Lerra]

Off topic, but local tournaments are great! $10 entry fee for all the pizza you can eat and free drinks all day. That's how we get such a range of people - even the most casual players will enter a tournament for free pizza.

[Aldramelech]

Off topic, but local tournaments are great! $10 entry fee for all the pizza you can eat and free drinks all day. That's how we get such a range of people - even the most casual players will enter a tournament for free pizza.

Fantastic Idea!:D

[Melissia]

Heck, I'd join for that.

[Drew da Destroya]

She might even play her Ork army for free pizza!:p

[Melissia]

If I ever finish painting them anyway. I need to buy more green.

I've always been a big fan of the Green Tide tactic.

[40kGamer]

I play primarily for fun. Don't get me wrong - it's nice to win, but not necessary. Work & school are competitive enough to exhaust a person and this is supposed to be a hobby! ;)

Along those lines I am currently playing a bike heavy marine army. It is far from what I would consider a power list. I do have a tooled up HQ squad that people may consider cheesy but who knows. As far as codex creep and other weirdness. I think people overreact. I picked up the SW codex last night and gave it a good read. There are some nice perks but it isn't the be all book that many people are crowing about. :p

[RocketRollRebel]

Off topic, but local tournaments are great! $10 entry fee for all the pizza you can eat and free drinks all day. That's how we get such a range of people - even the most casual players will enter a tournament for free pizza.

Our local tournys run like that as well. Soooo much funl. With that said I am still a fan of uber competitive GT's and things like that but thats just me. :p

Being very into competitive play does make you cynical but I feel that I've stepped back from that ledge (ie "this army build x and this army build y will always win games and this army a and this army b suck and will never win"). While I do think some codex's do need an update I really don't feel that people need to cry and cry and cry about it. If you are worried about being competitive then work at your tactics and your army so that you can wipe out the TH/SS marines, or mech guard, or Nobz Mobz that you encounter. Then there are those who say that they arnt about playing competitively at all yet still complain about their codex being outdated. Why do you care then! haha

I play Blood Angels as one of my 2 armies and I'm fine with them. Do they have some wargear and rules that maybe need some work? Of course, but I wont cry about it constantly, I make due with what I have and try to make the best of it. Yeah when I play in tournys I am kinda limited as to what units I am going to take but that doesn't mean I cant play around with stuff during a casual game with friends.

[Melissia]

That said, I'm still not gonna shutup about it until GW finally updates Sisters like they *******ed should have back in fourth edition.

Mind you, I don't complain about it when I'm playing. That's bad sportsmanship. Just have the game and have fun with it. GW isn't paying attention to your game, whereas they might pay attention to their inbox or a popular forum/site such as BoLS.

[Commissar Lewis]

^ Agreed, they do need an update, the Sisters. Then again, seeing my Canoness wreck a Demolisher without using meltabombs was awesome. (blessed weapon and the act of faith that adds 2 to S).

Anyway, I play to have fun. And hell, if I'm gonna lose I like losing in new, creative, and awesome ways. That said winning I imagine would feel great, but hey my W/L ration is like the Detroit Lions.

But I have fun with my redshirt army (the Guard, and my color scheme does include red).

[therealjohnny5]

What about disadvantages in game terms? Have any of you guys set up a scenario or given an advantage to your opponent just bc it could be fun to come from the bottom, or it presents a challenge to beat? Or have you ever made a list and played it then went against an army type it wasn't meant for but not changed anything, like an anti-vehicle army vs a horde army?

[RocketRollRebel]

What about disadvantages in game terms? Have any of you guys set up a scenario or given an advantage to your opponent just bc it could be fun to come from the bottom, or it presents a challenge to beat? Or have you ever made a list and played it then went against an army type it wasn't meant for but not changed anything, like an anti-vehicle army vs a horde army?

Last stand type scenerios can be lotsa fun although I can't say that i've made a list to purposly put myself at a dissadvantage. I have a compulsion to just make take all comers lists :p. Building lists to fit a scenario or a story.

[imperialsavant]

I like what I like and I do what I do. My armies are all about what I think the army should be, Looks and Feel, whether its competitive comes pretty far down the list for me.

But I play for fun only, I don't do tournaments.

;) You sum up my own approach perfectly!
I love to field a "Fluffy" & balanced Army & see what I can do against all sorts of opponents.

[imperialsavant]

People have made the claim that Sisters are broken.

I have made claim that people are idiots. As often as possible.

:p Oh NO! Sisters are NOT broken!
Sure they could appreciate some GW love but if you use their "plus's" they can be very effective as I just recently creamed a 1500 pt 1000 Sons Army with Daemons. The answer is Faith both in your Army & the Acts. ;)

[Melissia]

Of course they're not broken. But because of how aged they are, you pretty much have to min-max in order to be competitive. In fact, I've basically gotten it down to a simple science, with little variation depending on whom I'm facing. I might take more Seraphim against Guard so I can deep strike and take out their back line, or a Retributor heavy bolter squad with a TLHB Immolator with blessed ammunition against horde Orks and Tyranids. I'd take almost entirelly flamers against an all-infantry army, and mostly meltaguns against a tank-heavy army. In the end, though... the strategy is always the same.

Get in their face and set them on fire.

Whether it's by driving or by running, in the end you want the same thing every single round. Against khornate berzerkers? Get in their face and set them on fire before they can assault you. Against Tau? Get in their face, set them on fire, and then assault THEM. Against Guard? Get in their fast even faster, set them on fire, and blow the hell out of their AP3 artillery and tanks. Against Marines? Get in their face and set them on fire. Against Necrons? Get in their face and set their Warriors on fire. Against Eldar? Get in their face and set them on fire, ignoring their transports. Against Dark Eldar? Wait for them to get in your face and THEN set them on fire.

The variation is staggering, no?

[sodcactus]

Get in their face and set them on fire.

Whether it's by driving or by running, in the end you want the same thing every single round. Against khornate berzerkers? Get in their face and set them on fire before they can assault you. Against Tau? Get in their face, set them on fire, and then assault THEM. Against Guard? Get in their fast even faster, set them on fire, and blow the hell out of their AP3 artillery and tanks. Against Marines? Get in their face and set them on fire. Against Necrons? Get in their face and set their Warriors on fire. Against Eldar? Get in their face and set them on fire, ignoring their transports. Against Dark Eldar? Wait for them to get in your face and THEN set them on fire.

The variation is staggering, no?

At least you can put them on fire first. As a Tyranid palyer I would love to be able to put them on fire, I have to be content with getting in their face and assault them. Seems like Sisters have more variation to them :)

[Denzark]

Unfortunately this is part of the hobby 'scene' now. Along with stuff like GW hiding pictures of new minis, other dodgy marketing ploys, people proxying and debating a list before that codex is even in the shops, the stench of some gaming shops on a summer afternoon.

To immerse yourself in the fluff and the good of the game you become exposed to the negative aspects. You could always not go on any forums to minimize the codex creep debate - at least you might not hear anything from whining DE players then.

Its quite ironic that in complaining about the bad bitz (and yes I totally agree with your OP) you have become a complainer yourself - oxymoronic I know but anyhoo...

[Xas]

Normaly I'm a quite friendly person and can come on good terms with most types of players (both the 100% power-nerd as well as the fluffy carebear) but there is one kind if people I hate by the deepest powers in my soul: whiners.

In my mind those gamers reside in the same circle of hell as ***CENSORED BY THE INQUISITION***.


A game will only ever be balanced if both players have the same units and start/act at the same time. On that note the only games that are balanced are mirror-matches in RTS (when both players play the same race) or most ego-shooters (because only player skill applies IF both have a good machine, connection and dont use cheat programms).

Coming from this you MUST have already accepted that each game will be "unfair" in some aspects before you even baught your first piece (or if you are only in for building and painting, you basically get the game aspect for free so keep shut up if you dont like your FREE game :P).

The leafblower has shown how important/unfair the first turn is. theoretically its fair because each player has the same chance of getting to shoot first but practically this is forgotten by those smal-brained whiners as soon as you start shooting.

Next is the oh so louothed "codex creep": it IS true that each new codex brings more powerfull & intersting toys (or makes up to then useless ones viable: buffing them) and afaik the 4E CSM dex was the only one with serious nerfs (oblits, khornate deamon prince of doom).
We also have accumulated at least 3 editions and 4 design philosophies for dexes at the moment. If you compare the E5 dexes to E3 or mid E4 they include far more powerfull units (which are balanced by their point cost) which in the old mindsets would stimply have been "to broken" (but thanks god, the great for AND the emepror GW peopel have grown up and brought us interesting toys!).
Finally about 100%-E9 of the whiners do not have the background in maths to even understand IF things are broken. Best example is the feared punisher cannon 20 shots s5 Bs3! "come on man, 20 shots how is that not broken!" yeah, right. the stupid tank costs as much as a full tactical squat in a rhino and does about as much damage (against meq its EXACTLY the same. tank hits 4+ wounds 3+ & marines hit 3+ wound 4+, both have 20 shots and even same range because the rhino mocex 12", people dissembark and shot 12"!). combining the facts that the tank can be killed by ONE melta shot and doesnt score this seams to be a deal which is a tad in favour of the marines.

Now a bit to defend the fact that new dexes ARE more powerfull. there is one fact which should not be ignored: knowledge. a new dex is unknown, its tricks have not yet been talked to death and proper counters have not been developed. therefore the new dex in the hands of a skilled player will shurely have an advantage (if the player can see this good combinations). Imagine you were the first to ever discover nob-bikers... you'd have a field day and whipe most of the wanabe-generals without loosing a single modell. nowadays nobbikers are still strong but armies have evolved.

So yeah if you allways want to have the last bit of advantage... invest as much as the next magic:the gathering tourney player and your advantage will not even be 1/10 as his is due to the newest cards.

Last but not least lets meet the "angry stepchild" people: DE, Inquisition & Necrons. I have at same time so much and so f ew to say about these. Only that they are the worst of all. Unlike the whiners who whine about the above things they are either hypocrites (by joining recently and EXACTLY knowing what they were buying into) or had time enough to learn to deal with it. While the dexes lack the load of shiney and expensive toys they still work if you know what you do (and many E4 dexes lack those toys as well. for examples see BA&DA compared to the new marines).

Out of all the old dexes I think GW has made the right decission to update nids first. The reason for this is that they had one glaring weakness compared to all the other old dexes who only lack toys and a few rewritten rules. What is this weakness?
Comeone, look at your usualy enemy army... and now count how many reliable anti-tank weapons nids can take. If you say any number higher than 5 you do not know what you are talking. Nids can ahve 3 zoans and 2 hive tyrants, each with a bs3 s10 ap2 18" weapon. thats for the whole army as much as 2 lascanon weapon squads can pump out. the rest is melee and thus needs 6 to hit a not-brainded oponent or only manages glances on non-open topped vehicles.
you think necron anti-tank got nerfed? well meet nids who never had good anti tank and their only dedicated anti-tank gun was hit by the same nerfbat but unlike you they do not have heavy destroyers.

and dark eldar? really whats their problem? the only thing which can be said without turning red in shame is that their modells suck but everyone has to agree that a whole new modell line takes time. you could prolly update nids, BA, DA, BT, eldar, necrons and even inquisition with the same sculpting work as DE alone take. Nids only take metal-> palstic makeovers of already nice modells as well as some more bits into their sprues recut. BA would prolly only need a SW like box as well as the predator in full plastic, DA&BT are happy even without new modells, eldar need the same as nids (plastic aspect warriors and a ******* palstic crystal for the fireprism) and crons are prolly the only ones needing a bit of scultping work for another vehicle or two and plastic elite infantry.
I mean I'd love to see the DE redone as much as the next guy (I had started them many times had they had better modells) but there is basically no modell that can stay if you want to do it right (and many a time GW has shown that they do changes right and not half assed in terms of miniatures). Some modells look alright but only if standing next to abominations like the hagashin. well I have to take it back, there is one modell that can stay: the bike :)


finaly line:
accept how the world turns and stop *****ing
thanks!

[Melissia]

[edit: Screw it. I'mj just reporting that troll post. Not worth my time.]

[Duke]

I have to say that I don't usually complain on forums cause I don't want to be one of 'those people.' However, since this is the topic of the thread Ill venture into the abyss.

I would say that the only times that I argue with codex creep is when it contradicts the fluff, for example:

-Tigrius/ Njal Stormcaller> Eldrad - How did that happen that almost every Chapter Librarian is a better psycher than Eldrad?

- IG snipers that are as good at hiding in the shadows as Eldar Rangers... huh?

- Scouting Valkyries/ vendettas... I can see fast, I can see skimmer, but it is an air assault vehicle, not a sneaky ninja vehicle. If you wanted one with scout then remove transport capacity. Since when could IG outmanouvre Eldar?


P.S. - Why do all my fluff arguments have to do with Eldar? lol... Uh oh I should be careful or Im going to turn into the Melissa of Eldar ;)


Duke Fernando Bosques Del Costa Sevilla De Los Santos Celito Lindo.

[Aldramelech]

I have to say that I don't usually complain on forums cause I don't want to be one of 'those people.' However, since this is the topic of the thread Ill venture into the abyss.

I would say that the only times that I argue with codex creep is when it contradicts the fluff, for example:

-Tigrius/ Njal Stormcaller> Eldrad - How did that happen that almost every Chapter Librarian is a better psycher than Eldrad?

- IG snipers that are as good at hiding in the shadows as Eldar Rangers... huh?

- Scouting Valkyries/ vendettas... I can see fast, I can see skimmer, but it is an air assault vehicle, not a sneaky ninja vehicle. If you wanted one with scout then remove transport capacity. Since when could IG outmanouvre Eldar?


P.S. - Why do all my fluff arguments have to do with Eldar? lol... Uh oh I should be careful or Im going to turn into the Melissa of Eldar ;)


Duke Fernando Bosques Del Costa Sevilla De Los Santos Celito Lindo.

Noooooooooooooo! lol

[BuFFo]

but when it boils down to it we all choose to play the game and with the armies we do....

Actually, sometimes we don't, and that is what makes many players mad.

GW will change an army when a new Codex comes out, and more often than not, a new version of the army invalidates an older version of the army.

Chaos marines is a perfect example. I can even go as far as bringing up Squats, Kroot Mercs, Genestealer armies, and any army from the Armegeddon Codex. How about 3rd ed nids, when I have 6ish Vernom Cannons in one unit of Heavy Warriors? When the new book came out, I shelved/sold my Nids because I had tons of models I would never use again. How about Necrons? That army is NOT what it used to be, and a simple Errata would fix everything.

GW will tell you "Hey, buy this new army! Its great!" So you drop a thousand bucks and convert a new army, only to have GW crap all over you by dropping the army, or changing it so much that many of your models are no invalidated.

So yeah, sometimes we actually end up playing an army we DID not get into. And that pisses off players.

[Melissia]

This is true. Didn't they remove Eldar Craftworlds for example? It may have needed a rebalancing, but I know some Eldar players whom are personally pissed off about that, when Marines keep their codices but the other armies get their expansions removed. Elysian Drop Troops are another big issue, amongst Guard palyers.

[therealjohnny5]

if an army gets the overhaul and you hate the new elements, but you love the army would you still keep playing it despite that weakness and learn to work around it in gaming terms (like our beloved Melissa and her dear sisters), or drop the army for the time and find a new army to love?

And if you find a new army is it one that is the most powerful, leafblower type in your perspective, or is it one that appeals to you on a more tactically challenging approach?

[BuFFo]

Yup, exactly.

[Melissia]

I keep playing it and I make it work for me however I can . I like Sisters for their background, not necessarily for their army list. The Sisters army list needs some drastic changes to make it compete with the fifth edition lists. I've done a bit of work on how a fifth edition codex for Sisters might look myself.

Just to give you an idea on how drastic the changes might be, the current codex has ten Sisters units and one character. The current Marine codex has 29 units and 11 characters. The curreng IG codex has somewhere around 29 units not including Leman Russ variants, and something around 6 characters.

That means that a 5th edition Sisters codex would want to triple the amount of unit choices the Sisters have available to them and provide a drastic increase in the number of special characters. If the next codex is going to be in line with other fifth edition codices, it's going to be a dramatic change for the Sisters. I'll keep playing them unless their fluff is COMPLETELY butchered, but I know I'm more likely than not gonna feel a bit of shock from at least some of the changes.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Elysians will be out next year, updated to 5th, or is that not what you meant?

Forge World will be the only source for Guard Variants.

[Grinner1987]

^ Totally agree with Melissia. Started playing 40k because of the wolves. Two years ago, when I started playing I went 15 games before I actually won. Never once considered giving up on the wolves. I just love the SW too much to put 'em up. Even though a new codex just came out, i really doesn't matter to me, I would keep playing my wolves even if we hadn't.

[Melissia]

Elysians will be out next year, updated to 5th, or is that not what you meant?

Forge World will be the only source for Guard Variants.

I meant that they were effectively left in the dust with the switch to the fifth edition codex. Sure they might be updated next year (if they can get their mouth off of Marine teats long enough at any rate), but they're still an illegal army list right now. Catachans are in the same situation I think, too.

Mind you, most Guard players are often ecstatic about their new codex. It IS an awesome codex after all.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

I meant that they were effectively left in the dust with the switch to the fifth edition codex. Sure they might be updated next year (if they can get their mouth off of Marine teats long enough at any rate), but they're still an illegal army list right now. Catachans are in the same situation I think, too.

Mind you, most Guard players are often ecstatic about their new codex. It IS an awesome codex after all.

:eek: God, that is a disturbing visual....


Catachans are in the Craftworld Eldar boat, the new IG Codex is their Codex, no more mini-dex. I think Death Korps were updated in the newest IA but I am not sure.

[Duke]

... I like Sisters for their background, not necessarily for their army list...

Odd, I thought you liked them because you were a pyro.

[Aldramelech]

No, more like the girl with the semi automatic, gas powered, high velocity rifle and a tall tower in the middle of campus.

[therealjohnny5]

^ Totally agree with Melissia. Started playing 40k because of the wolves. Two years ago, when I started playing I went 15 games before I actually won. Never once considered giving up on the wolves. I just love the SW too much to put 'em up. Even though a new codex just came out, i really doesn't matter to me, I would keep playing my wolves even if we hadn't.
That's how i feel about the Raven Guard. I like their flair, even if it limits me in my army builds, and even if the BA's do the fast assault thing better.

[imperialsavant]

Get in their face and set them on fire.
SNIP********

Whether it's by driving or by running, in the end you want the same thing every single round. Against khornate berzerkers? Get in their face and set them on fire before they can assault you. Against Tau? Get in their face, set them on fire, and then assault THEM. Against Guard? Get in their fast even faster, set them on fire, and blow the hell out of their AP3 artillery and tanks. Against Marines? Get in their face and set them on fire. Against Necrons? Get in their face and set their Warriors on fire. Against Eldar? Get in their face and set them on fire, ignoring their transports. Against Dark Eldar? Wait for them to get in your face and THEN set them on fire.

The variation is staggering, no?

;) Spoken like a true, faithful Sister of the Adepta Sororitas! Cannoness Melissa.:)

[Katie Drake]

That's how i feel about the Raven Guard. I like their flair, even if it limits me in my army builds, and even if the BA's do the fast assault thing better.

Well, the Raven Guard are more about stealth than the Blood Angels are remember. The Raven Guard are sneaky and fast whereas the Blood Angels are just fast and angry. Similar, but by no means the same.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Raven Guard are about overwhelming strength at the weakest point. Not Stealth, like sneaking around.

[Melissia]

No, more like the girl with the semi automatic, gas powered, high velocity rifle and a tall tower in the middle of campus.

If I'm going to do something like that, it'd more likely be that I'd go for twin M1911A1s, or possibly an Anaconda w/8" barrel.

[therealjohnny5]

Well, the Raven Guard are more about stealth than the Blood Angels are remember. The Raven Guard are sneaky and fast whereas the Blood Angels are just fast and angry. Similar, but by no means the same.

Fair observation. I sometimes Just look at the BA assault troop selection and dream of firey jet packs bringing 33+ attacks on the charge while claiming an objective.

[Aldramelech]

If I'm going to do something like that, it'd more likely be that I'd go for twin M1911A1s, or possibly an Anaconda w/8" barrel.

I worry about you..........

[Marshal2Crusaders]

With twin M1911A1s, I think shes got herself covered, you could probably do with some covering lol

[jimbobjeff]

In my opinion both the best and worst thing about 40k is that there are so many different ways of playing it, from ultra competetive to ultra fluffy with shades of grey all the way through.

A lot of whining stems from people thinking that their way of playing is in some way better than someone elses, for example the fluffy player who cries cheese at a competetive list or the competetive player who laughs at someone's fluffy army.
In my experience 40k only works when the two players involved both want to get the same thing out of it, if you have a fluffy list going up against someones Ard Boyz list then niether player enjoys the two turn long game and both go home and whine on the internet about how over/underpowered various units are, how their opponent ignored the fluff etc.

Just my 2p

[Denzark]

I worry about you..........

I worry about her too the 7 round mag in a 1911 is nowhere near enough for going postal...

[Aldramelech]

I worry about her too the 7 round mag in a 1911 is nowhere near enough for going postal...

I was worried about the damage the kick from all that 45ACP would do to her delicate little wrists.....;)

[Melissia]

If you hold the weapon properly you have nothing to fear. I've fired a magnum revolver without hurting myself. Mind you, it wasn't one of those idiotically designed ones with a 4" barrel and NO recoil reducing features. but still. Proper technique will prevent you from hurting yourself with the weapon you're firing.

[Aldramelech]

Thanks for the lesson..........



Didnt need one, but thanks anyway.:rolleyes:

[Melissia]

*gag* Why'd ya have to post that?

[Aldramelech]

In a former life, It was my job to instruct weapons handling. I certainly dont need any lessons from you young lady.......

[Melissia]

That's still no excuse to post an image like THAT.

[crazyredpraetorian]

I worry about her too the 7 round mag in a 1911 is nowhere near enough for going postal...

The Glock 20 is way better in postal situations. It's the harder hitting 10mm round and it has 15 rd capacity. The ammo is a bit more expensive, though.

[Aldramelech]

BOLS or NRA? I'm getting confused now....... lol.

I'm as guilty as anyone, but I think we may be slightly off the reservation.

[warpcrafter]

I would bring an army that I like, but they've either been invalidated or neutered. I tried Orks, but I stayed away from no-brainer powergamer builds and now they've joined everybody else, gathering dust. I can't wait for 6th edition, because it will probably kill the entire game and hobby once and for all.

[therealjohnny5]

now i realize it's more my style of play but at a FLGS i played my RG army against another guys RG army. While both of us had Shrike and scout squads, he had preditors, vindicators, land raiders, the HS works. Now while i don't believe RG should never use HS, i prefer to run FW Deathstorm drop pods and dreads when i'm in an uber fluffy mood. If you were to play Crimson Fists, you'd be limited to Veteran squads and scouts if you played to fluff, and with only 3 vet slots in FOC it makes for a tight fit for tougher units.

So is it worth playing an army that has that kind of restrictions? or on another perspective, Does anyone min\max an army list with characters and the ulta killy lists and why?

[fusbecon]

Interesting thought, i completely agree with your perspective... :cool:
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[Katie Drake]

It depends really. Some people play the game to win. It's all about triumphing over their opponent by outwitting and outplaying them. Some people don't actually care about the background story to the game at all so will take whatever the heck they want. Some are totally into the backstory and feel dirty playing anything less than a totally fluffy list.

Everyone has their own preferences. Why? 'Cause we're all individuals!

[therealjohnny5]

It depends really. Some people play the game to win. It's all about triumphing over their opponent by outwitting and outplaying them. Some people don't actually care about the background story to the game at all so will take whatever the heck they want. Some are totally into the backstory and feel dirty playing anything less than a totally fluffy list.

Everyone has their own preferences. Why? 'Cause we're all individuals!

Word. I concur. That kind of rhymed. Anyhoo, but do you think max out a list to be niegh unbeatable, or the "Leafblower" approach is out playing your opponent or out powering?

[Duke]

I often find that "powergaming," is a mutable term. Obiously I play Blood Angels, which many people consider an underpowered list. However, when I run the Dante/ Corbulo venn Diagram of Doom people start to claim how cheesey/ broken Blood Angels are.

The way it seems is that if you bring any list that is above marginal and you are also a good player then people start to scream cheese. Comments/ Alternate observations?

Duke

[Katie Drake]

Word. I concur. That kind of rhymed. Anyhoo, but do you think max out a list to be niegh unbeatable, or the "Leafblower" approach is out playing your opponent or out powering?

The "Leafblower" approach is part of out-playing your opponent. Part of the game is writing army lists. Sure, it might not happen at the table and may not involve pushing toy soldiers around or rolling dice, but it's equally important.

[DuskRaider]

That said, I'm still not gonna shutup about it until GW finally updates Sisters like they *******ed should have back in fourth edition.

Mind you, I don't complain about it when I'm playing. That's bad sportsmanship. Just have the game and have fun with it. GW isn't paying attention to your game, whereas they might pay attention to their inbox or a popular forum/site such as BoLS.



Sisters are not popular, so don't hold your breath too long.

And onto the topic at hand... The group I play with more often then not try to avoid the whole powergaming issue completely by playing lists that are less competitive and more fun. That being said, there's also only one IG player and one Ork player amongst all of them, and of which neither use the beardy lists you often see popping up on websites. No SW players yet, but I'd love the opportunity to pit my Death Guard against the new codex.

[Melissia]

The "Leafblower" approach is part of out-playing your opponent. Part of the game is writing army lists. Sure, it might not happen at the table and may not involve pushing toy soldiers around or rolling dice, but it's equally important.

The main problem, I think, is that GW has given many expensive, impractical, but cool choices that people want to take. And those people that don't take them are percieved as having leafblower armies, when in reality they just have GOOD armies.

[Duke]

@ Melissa: Spot on, that is what I have been feeling... Just because you play a powerful list doesn't mean anything except that you have a good list... Broken armies, codex creep and all the rest of the excuses fly out the door as soon as the dice start rolling, attitudes start getting worked up and tactics are employed. Then, only after all of that can you say that something is broken (generally).

Duke

[therealjohnny5]

The main problem, I think, is that GW has given many expensive, impractical, but cool choices that people want to take. And those people that don't take them are percieved as having leafblower armies, when in reality they just have GOOD armies.

I totally agree. there are lots of cool options out there but it's really also a shame bc in game play terms they don't make sense bc of inflated cost or whatnot. On the other hand there are a few goodies that are underpriced, and are almost like absolutes in a build. but in the end the really good armies rarely employ any of those kind of things.


@ Melissa: Spot on, that is what I have been feeling... Just because you play a powerful list doesn't mean anything except that you have a good list... Broken armies, codex creep and all the rest of the excuses fly out the door as soon as the dice start rolling, attitudes start getting worked up and tactics are employed. Then, only after all of that can you say that something is broken (generally).

Duke

Duke nicely done working the thread title in to the post...10 burnt Nid toes for you.:p

[Duke]

...

Duke nicely done working the thread title in to the post...10 burnt Nid toes for you.:p

Well, Huzzah for me! I do try. Just my little way of tying it all together I suppose.

DUKE