look out sirs- again

[joedrache]

so in a unit of different saves, lets say the 2+ guy is nearest the firer. takes 10 wounds can i just roll saves til i fail one, take that wound, and then look out sir the rest?

or

do i hafta say im gonna take two saves and then look out 8 then takes 2 more?

do i hafta choose before or can i see how it plays out?

why? where does it say it, either way?

thanks

[Bean]

so in a unit of different saves, lets say the 2+ guy is nearest the firer. takes 10 wounds can i just roll saves til i fail one, take that wound, and then look out sir the rest?

or

do i hafta say im gonna take two saves and then look out 8 then takes 2 more?

do i hafta choose before or can i see how it plays out?

why? where does it say it, either way?

thanks

When the unit has different saves, you take the "Look out Sir" rolls before any saves are made. This is because "look out sir" happens when the wounds are allocated, and when a unit has mixed saves, wounds are allocated before you make any saves. So, if you have, say, a Captain in Artificer armor at the head of a Tactical squad (and he's the closest model to the firer):

They roll to hit. They roll to wound.

A wound gets assigned to the Captain.

He chooses whether to make an LOS roll.

If he makes an LoS roll successfully, the wound goes to another model, that model then makes a save.

If he opts not to make an LoS roll or fails his LoS roll, the wound stays on him and he then makes a save.

Repeat until either all of the wounds are resolved or the character is dead (at which point you resolve the remaining wounds against the squad as though they didn't have mixed saves, basically).

You speed up the process by taking LoS rolls in batches equal to the difference between the number of wounds the Captain has remaining and the number of wounds you've allocated to him, until they are equal, at which point you can make saves. Remember, though, that the firer can pick which type of wounds you resolve first. For example:

Assume the firing squad inflicts two plasma gun wounds and ten bolter wounds. The firer chooses to make you resolve the plasma gun first.

You assign both plasma wounds to the Captain. You choose to make an LoS roll for both. One LoS roll succeeds, so that plasma wound goes to a Tactical marine of your choice within 6" of the Captain (and in the same unit). That Marine dies, since he doesn't have a save against plasma.

The remaining plasma wound goes to the Captain, who fails his invulnerable save and takes a wound.

Assign two bolter wounds to the Captain. You choose to make LoS rolls for both, again, and make both. Re-assign those two bolter wounds, and the models to which they are now allocated make saves.

Assign two more bolter wounds to the Captain. You choose to make LoS rolls for both, again. This time you make one and fail one. You reassign one bolter wound for the LoS roll you made, at which point you immediately take a save for the guy you reassigned it to.

You now assign single bolter wounds, one at a time, to the captain, until he either fails an LoS roll or opts not to make one (leaving him with two wounds assigned to him--equal to the number of wounds he has remaining) at which point, he makes two saves.

Keep repeating this process (remember that if he fails a save and drops down to one wound, you can only do one wound against him at a time) until all the wounds are resolved and all saves have been made.

Does that help?

[evilamericorp]

can i just roll saves til i fail one, take that wound, and then look out sir the rest?

Yes.

In this situation, treat each wound separately. You can make saves for your character until he only has one wound remaining and then try to LoS each additional wound to the rest of his squad.

[DarkLink]

Read Bean's post.



In a unit with mixed saves, LOS happens before saves. In a unit with similar saves, LOS happens after saves.

[Bean]

Yes.

In this situation, treat each wound separately. You can make saves for your character until he only has one wound remaining and then try to LoS each additional wound to the rest of his squad.

Edit: Sorry, I misread this the first time.

Yes, you can do this. You can keep making saves on the character one at a time until he only has one wound left, then make Look out Sir rolls for the rest of the wounds. You're entitled to the information generated by each resolution before you make a decision about what to do for the next wound.

Just remember (and this is what I had written previously, so I'm going to leave it here) when the character has a different save than the rest of the unit, you make Look out Sir rolls before saves. This is because the Look out Sir roll happens when the wound is allocated--which happens before the save is made in a unit with mixed saves.

If your character has a different save than the rest of his unit, and he takes a save, he takes the wound (if he fails the save). He can't take a save then make a Look out Sir roll for the unsaved wound if he fails the save. At that point, the wound has already been allocated to him and the opportunity to Look out Sir has passed.

[Chris Copeland]

Read Bean's post.



In a unit with mixed saves, LOS happens before saves. In a unit with similar saves, LOS happens after saves.

Troops, I have to say I LOVE this thread. It seems to simply and easily break down a complicated rule and make it easily understandable. I like it so much that I've printed out a copy of it to keep with my BRB. I have a request: would y'all tell me exactly where to look in the BRB so that I can quickly point to it in case this comes up during a game? I'd like to be able to say:

"In a unit with mixed saves, LOS happens before saves. This is clearly written on page XXX of the BRB. In a unit with similar saves, LOS happens after saves. That is laid out on page XXX of the BRB."

Bean and DL, I consider you guys to be excellent rules-lawyers (and I don't mean that in a pejorative way). The fact that y'all are in accord on this tells me that this is the right interpretation. Please help! Thanks! Cope

[Tynskel]

I don't know what there is to love about this post. Someone didn't read the rules, and then someone else told the guy to read the rules...

[Chris Copeland]

I don't know what there is to love about this post. Someone didn't read the rules, and then someone else told the guy to read the rules...

Then I shall explain what I love about this thread: I've read the rules (over and over again) and I find LO,S! to be beyond confusing. Here come Bean and DL and say, with certitude, this is how it works. Simple. "Oh wonderful," says I! A distillation of LO,S! in two sentences!

So, Tynskel, can you quote chapter and verse why Bean & DL's explanation is the right one? I'd love to know what pages to point to because there are a lot of confused players out there. In my local group we are still trying to figure out if you can take LO,S! rolls after making armor saves in mixed-save units. Bean and DL seem to indicate you can't. This appeals to me but I'd love to back it up with more than, "Well because Bean, DarkLink, and Tynskel say so" during my next game. Cheers!

[Alqualonde]

Troops, I have to say I LOVE this thread. It seems to simply and easily break down a complicated rule and make it easily understandable. I like it so much that I've printed out a copy of it to keep with my BRB. I have a request: would y'all tell me exactly where to look in the BRB so that I can quickly point to it in case this comes up during a game? I'd like to be able to say:

"In a unit with mixed saves, LOS happens before saves. This is clearly written on page XXX of the BRB. In a unit with similar saves, LOS happens after saves. That is laid out on page XXX of the BRB."

Bean and DL, I consider you guys to be excellent rules-lawyers (and I don't mean that in a pejorative way). The fact that y'all are in accord on this tells me that this is the right interpretation. Please help! Thanks! Cope

Not sure of the exact page but when you read the look out sir rule, it says you take a look out sir immediately after allocating the wound or unsaved wound. The only way to allocate a wound, as against an unsaved wound, is when there are mixed saves. If you have to take the look out sir immediately it is allocated, it must be before any save.

[Tynskel]

well, if you read most rules posts that I have, I usually point to the page number, just like Bean and DarkLink.

In all three cases: we are reading the rulebook...

[Chris Copeland]

Tynskel, I can't tell wether you are being snarky or not. I'm just going to assume the best and hope for "not." I am reading the rulebook. It is not the mostly clearly written rule I've ever seen. I'm looking at page 16. Glancing out over the interwebz, it seems that I am not the only gamer who finds LO,S! confusing. Cheers.


well, if you read most rules posts that I have, I usually point to the page number, just like Bean and DarkLink.

In all three cases: we are reading the rulebook...

[DarkLink]

Here's a simple flowchart of how all of wound allocation works, in one quick and easy to use picture:

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/WoundAllocation6E.pdf


Great work, GW. I have to applaud your well thought out, clean, and elegant rules. That was sarcasm, by the way.








Anyways, if you want to parse the language for look out sir down, it becomes this:

When a wound is allocated to a character, on a 4/2+ you may transfer that wound to another model in the same unit within 6".


With mixed saves, you allocate wounds before you take saves (you allocate the wound, roll the save, remove any casualties, repeat). With similar saves, you allocate wounds after you take saves (you roll all saves, then allocate unsaved wounds and remove casualties).

[Denzark]

Hang on - how does the fabled 'tanking' work, or has that been debunked?

By which I mean sticking a 2+ character at the front of a wedge, taking all saves with that 2+ and when one fails, passing the wound back to someone else?

Because that is happening with mixed saves - so clearly after the wounds are allocated.

[DarkLink]

The case you describe is indeed illegal.

When you have multiple saves (the 2+ character in a mixed save unit), you allocate one wound to him, then roll the save. Once you've rolled the save, it's too late to LOS because the wound has already been allocated. So if your character fails the 2+, he takes the wound with no recourse to pass it off. You have to chose to LOS it to another model before rolling the save when in a unit with mixed saves.




However, if you have, say, a Wolf Guard Terminator attached to a squad of Grey Hunters, you can put the Terminator in front to get a 2/3+ until the Terminator dies. You can only save a limited number of wounds, since you roll one at a time until you fail and at that point you can't LOS the failed wound to a Grey Hunter, but you can see how in some circumstances it would be useful.

And if it's, say, Driago, you can LOS those wounds to other Paladins and spread them out like you could with the old wound allocation. It's not as reliable as old wound allocation, but it's still quite useful.

[Bean]

Copeland, The page numbers you want are:




When a Wound (or unsaved Wound) is allocated to one of your characers, and there is another model from the same unit within 6", he's allowed a Look Out, Sir attempt.

Specifically, note that the rule triggers when a wound or unsaved wound is allocated.




To determine how many casualties are caused, you will need to allocate the Wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed. For now, we're going to assume that all the models in the target unit have the same saving throw. If this is not the case, the method is slightly different, but we'll come to that later (see Mixed Saves below.)

Take Saving Throws
First of all, the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 16), for each Wound being resolved. Make a note of how many unsaved Wounds have been caused.

Allocated Unsaved Wounds & Remove Casualties
nmext, allocate an unsaved Wound to the enemey model closest to the firing unit. Reduce that model's Wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, Remove it as a casualty. Continue allocating unsaved Wounds to the closest model until there are no more Wounds left, or the whole unit has been removed as casualties.

This is pretty straight-forward. For units where all the models have the same saves, take all the saves first, then allocate unsaved wounds, one at a time, starting with the closest model first.




If the target unit contains several different saving throws, you'll need to follow this process instead of the one presented above(....)

Allocate Wounds
First, allocate a Wound from the Wound pool to the enemy model closest to the firing unit.

Take Saves & Remove Casualties
The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one. If it fails, reduce that model's Wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty.

Continue allocating Wounds to the closest model, taking saves and removing casualties until the Wound pool is empty, or all models in the unit have been removed as casualties.

Note that, here, the allocation happens before the save is taken--this is very explicit. Note also that the consequence of a model failing a save is that its "Wounds is reduced by 1." It is not the case that a Wound is allocated to the model, it fails a save, then an unsaved Wound is allocated to it if it fails--rather, a Wound is allocated to it, it makes a save, then its Wounds is reduced by one if it fails.

Remember back up at the very beginning that the Look out, Sir rule is only triggered when a model is allocated a Wound or unsaved Wound. If you're ever thinking about making a Look out, Sir attempt, you can just stop and think to yourself, "did I just allocate a wound or unsaved wound?" If the answer is yes, you're good to go. If the answer is no, then you don't get to make a Look out, Sir attempt. In the situation where you have a mixed save unit and an IC that has just failed a save, you just have to stop and ask yourself that question. And, of course, you'll see that what just happened is that his Wounds were reduced by 1--not that he was just allocated an unsaved Wound--and that he is, thus, not eligible to make a Look out, Sir attempt at that juncture.

Note that the only time unsaved Wounds are allocated is when the entire unit will be taking the same save--this is because, in that situation, those wounds are allocated after the saves are already made (and failed).

Note also that the only time Wounds are allocated is when the unit is using the "Mixed Saves" rule, because, here, the Wounds are allocated before saves are made. Note also that, as above, in this situation no unsaved Wounds are allocated at all.

Note, also, that (in both situations) Wounds (and unsaved Wounds) are allocated one at a time.

These rules and the specific observations I've made about them entail all of the conclusions I've presented in this thread, and in other threads on the subject.

Hope that helps!


edit:
and, Denzark, the type of "tanking" you describe is definitely illegal. Once the IC in the mixed-save unit has failed a save, it is too late for him to make a Look out, Sir attempt. This is because he was allocated the Wound (the condition which triggers the opportunity for a Look out, Sir attempt) before he made the save. After he fails the save, his wounds are reduced by 1, and he may be removed as a casualty, but neither triggers another opportunity for a Look out, Sir attempt.

[Chris Copeland]

Thanks, Bean! The whole "wound or unsaved wound wording" has been giving me fits. I like the logical way you present all of it!

[Bean]

Thanks, Bean! The whole "wound or unsaved wound wording" has been giving me fits. I like the logical way you present all of it!

Yeah, I think that's the problem most people run into.

The inclusion of both Wounds and unsaved Wounds in the Look out Sir rule is necessary, because in some situations Wounds are allocated (pre-save) and in some situations unsaved Wounds are allocated (post save). The important thing is that there is no situation in which both happen for the same wound.

Beyond that, it's just a matter of knowing whether you're allocating Wounds or unsaved Wounds, as that tells you whether you do it before or after the save--and making that determination depends entirely on whether you're working with a mixed-save unit or not.

[Madjob]

It certainly would have made things a lot easier had GW printed "Note that for the purposes of units with mixed saves, armor saves are taken after wound allocation, and thus after Look Out, Sir! rolls are made." in the section for Look Out, Sir!

The language is there if you look, it is simply presented in a manner which is hard to interpret without several thorough readings (across a handful of pages no less!).