Valkyrie Grav-chute Insertion Question

[Renegade]

IMPERIAL GUARD

The Valkyrie's Grav-Chute Insertion rule states that troops may still disembark after the vehicle has gone flat out. Since vehicles in 6th move flat out in the shooting phase instead of the movement phase, how does this rule work? Are troops allowed to disembark in the Shooting phase? Are they allowed to disembark even if the vehicle is zooming?

Expected answers:
a) This rule no longer works as intended and may not be used until FAQ'd.

b) You may use the rule to disembark in the shooting phase after moving flat out, but only if the vehicle is in hover mode.

c) You may use the rule to disembark in the shooting phase after moving flat out, regardless of the vehicle's flight mode.

Page 7, Basic versus Advanced states that codex rules override rules from the rulebook. Grav Chute Insertion explicitly overrides the rule preventing disembarking when you move Flat Out.

Use the BRB, it is you friend in such matters.

Discussed at length HERE (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?347416-Grav-Chute-Insertion-How-is-it-being-ruled) and HERE (http://www.miniature-wargames.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?tid=859).

[evilamericorp]

Even if that's how they want it to work, it still needs to be clarified in a FAQ. The rule was clearly not initially written for troops to be able to disembark during their shooting phase.

[Angelofblades]

Even if that's how they want it to work, it still needs to be clarified in a FAQ. The rule was clearly not initially written for troops to be able to disembark during their shooting phase.

I don't see why that matters at all. Are you implying that models cannot disembark from a transport in the shooting phase?

Would you care to explain how passengers get out of a wreck that occurs in the shooting phase?

Grav chute insertion is a pretty well defined rule, it tells you exactly what to do and when to do it. As long as one follows the letter of the rule, it's legal.

We already have examples of shooting actions that occur in the movement phase and movement actions that happen in the shooting phase, disembarking in the shooting phase is nothing new.

[Renegade]

Even if that's how they want it to work, it still needs to be clarified in a FAQ. The rule was clearly not initially written for troops to be able to disembark during their shooting phase.

You work for Games Workshop and know this as a fact?

Games Workshop has stated that some of the 5th edition codices were written with 6th in mind, so speculation about what was or wasn't is neither here nor there.

The rule works fine as is and is clearly worded to work as is. Your asking for an FAQ for the sake of it, just to confirm that a rule works as written that does not has any game mechanic problems.

This is covered by the rule book, the rule book says that it works, problem solved.

[ToneYmeLoc]

What I'm still unclear on is whether or not a Valkyrie/Vendetta MUST go Flat Out to use Grav Chutes.

Opinions?

[Renegade]

What I'm still unclear on is whether or not a Valkyrie/Vendetta MUST go Flat Out to use Grav Chutes.

Opinions?

The Rules say yes.

So its 6 inches or flat out to deploy whatever they carry.

[ToneYmeLoc]

The Rules say yes.

So its 6 inches or flat out to deploy whatever they carry.
I can see how that would be balanced, but if indeed that is the case, it is a pretty big nerf to the ability. I wonder if it was intended, and likewise wish there were some stated rules (rather than implied) about disembarking from flyers.

[Renegade]

I can see how that would be balanced, but if indeed that is the case, it is a pretty big nerf to the ability. I wonder if it was intended, and likewise wish there were some stated rules (rather than implied) about disembarking from flyers.

I am going literally by what is written. RAW you use the normal debark rules and Grav Chute rules. Grav Chute only works when going flat out, the other means you can only move so far... not a big deal really. You are getting a pretty good ride into the bargain, so can't complain.

[Idolator]

It obviously needs an errata change.

The rule is identical to the "Skies of Blood" and "Dark Skies" from the Blood Angels and Grey knights codeci respectively. The errata changed the rule for "Skies of Blood" , they forgot to update "Dark Skies" at all and halfway updated "grav chute".

Another point on the errata change needed. "grav chute insertion" does not lift the restriction on disembarking from a vehicle that has moved more than 6".If you find somehing lifting of this restriction please tell me what page number or paragraph in the errata.

So no matter which side you may come down on, on this issue it needs an errata change for sure.

It's safe to assume that they all should follow the same rules from "Skies of Blood".

Some one earlier mentioned that "some codex were written with 6th edition in mind". IG codex came out before the Blood Angels codex.

[Renegade]

It obviously needs an errata change.

The rule is identical to the "Skies of Blood" and "Dark Skies" from the Blood Angels and Grey knights codeci respectively. The errata changed the rule for "Skies of Blood" , they forgot to update "Dark Skies" at all and halfway updated "grav chute".

Another point on the errata change needed. "grav chute insertion" does not lift the restriction on disembarking from a vehicle that has moved more than 6".If you find somehing lifting of this restriction please tell me what page number or paragraph in the errata.

So no matter which side you may come down on, on this issue it needs an errata change for sure.

It's safe to assume that they all should follow the same rules from "Skies of Blood".

Some one earlier mentioned that "some codex were written with 6th edition in mind". IG codex came out before the Blood Angels codex.

Then you need to read the rules for "grav chute insertion", as it specifically says that it works when the vehicle moves flat out.

[Idolator]

Then you need to read the rules for "grav chute insertion", as it specifically says that it works when the vehicle moves flat out.

That's not a cogent response.

It doesn't address any of the points that I made.

1. All three rules used to be identical.

2. one was rewritten, one was ignored, one was partialy rewritten.

3. Nowhere, does Grav Chute insertion lift the restriction on voluntary disembark when moving over six inches.

4. It would be odd to write a codex with 6th edition in mind, then not do so with two of the subsequent codex.

I did read the rules for grav chute, still can't find where it says you can disembark if the vehicle moved more than 6 inches. I also read a rule in the big rule book that says that you cannot voluntarily disembark if the vehicle moved more than six inches.

So, which is it? Did they forget to lift the restriction for moving over 6 inches or did they forget to properly update the rule to match the "skies of blood" rule.

Since they entirely forgot to update the "Dark Skies" rule, I know where I come down on the issue.

My point remains the same. They forgot to update something, no matter what you think they meant to have happen.

It's pretty rediculous to allow a vehicle to move flat and passengers to disembark but not allow the vehicle to move over six inches.

It's worse to allow a vehicle to move up to 60 inches, the passengers disembark out of sequence,and not provide any guidelines/ restricionss for this special move.

This is a cogent response.

[Renegade]

That's not a cogent response.

It doesn't address any of the points that I made.

1. All three rules used to be identical.

2. one was rewritten, one was ignored, one was partialy rewritten.

3. Nowhere, does Grav Chute insertion lift the restriction on voluntary disembark when moving over six inches.

4. It would be odd to write a codex with 6th edition in mind, then not do so with two of the subsequent codex.

I did read the rules for grav chute, still can't find where it says you can disembark if the vehicle moved more than 6 inches. I also read a rule in the big rule book that says that you cannot voluntarily disembark if the vehicle moved more than six inches.

So, which is it? Did they forget to lift the restriction for moving over 6 inches or did they forget to properly update the rule to match the "skies of blood" rule.

Since they entirely forgot to update the "Dark Skies" rule, I know where I come down on the issue.

My point remains the same. They forgot to update something, no matter what you think they meant to have happen.

It's pretty rediculous to allow a vehicle to move flat and passengers to disembark but not allow the vehicle to move over six inches.

It's worse to allow a vehicle to move up to 60 inches, the passengers disembark out of sequence,and not provide any guidelines/ restricionss for this special move.

This is a cogent response.

Then you haven't read the rules in the codex, plain and simple.

To quote page 56.

Grav Chute insertion: If a Valkyrie or Vendetta moved flat out, passengers may still disembark, but they must do as follows.

That is in the codex in black and white, and codex trumps what ever the rule book has to say.

The rule says that the disembark is allowed, and gives guidelines on how they are to do so.

You need to go and reed the rules, rather than just coming across as bellyaching because you think something is ridiculous.

[Idolator]

Then you haven't read the rules in the codex, plain and simple.

To quote page 56.

Grav Chute insertion: If a Valkyrie or Vendetta moved flat out, passengers may still disembark, but they must do as follows.

That is in the codex in black and white, and codex trumps what ever the rule book has to say.

The rule says that the disembark is allowed, and gives guidelines on how they are to do so.

You need to go and reed the rules, rather than just coming across as bellyaching because you think something is ridiculous.

So you agree that there is no rule lifting the restricttion from disembarking if you mved more than six inches.

Good.

Have fun with that stationary movement phase with a six inch flat out.

[Renegade]

So you agree that there is no rule lifting the restricttion from disembarking if you mved more than six inches.

Good.

Have fun with that stationary movement phase with a six inch flat out.

Not at all, it is six inches or the full move and flat out. There is no restriction on the distance of the flatout move, just the vehicle going flat out to bring the rule into effect. Nor dose the rule follow normal disembarking rules, as it is has its own.

Again, go and read the rules. I am not posting them all up here because you haven't got the original source material and/or have yet to prove that you do.

[Idolator]

Disembarking Pg. 79
A unit that begins its movement phase embarked upon a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved so long as the vehicle has not moved more than 6".

IG Codex pg56
If a valk/vend moved flat out it's passengers may still disembark, but they must do so as follows.

No lifting of the 6" restriction that I can see. Flat out is not a prescribed distance, it can easily be 6".

Let's ask a few questions.

Did the unit begin it's movement phase embarked in the vehicle: yes

Did the vehicle move more than 6": yes

Can you get out if a vehicle moves more than 6": NO

The rule as it's currently written, using your interpretation, would also allow me to board a statinary Valk in the movement phase, have it go flat out and then disembark in the shooting phase. (You can't do that either, as there is also no lifting of that restriction for boarding and voluntarily disemabrking in the same turn)

My point stands. There needs to be an errata change. "Skies of Blood" did it. Check that one out in Blood Angels errata. It used to be worded the same as Grav Chute before the correction. It's just a missed correction, no reason to get all worked up about it. It's a relic from a past edition that had flat out in the movement phase. It will be officialy corrected in the future.

[Idolator]

Again, go and read the rules. I am not posting them all up here because you haven't got the original source material and/or have yet to prove that you do.

My numerous references to the rules as written in both the IG rule book and the Big Rule book as well as the errata, would speak to a different conclusion.

Still waiting on that rule that allows a disembark from a vehicle that moves more than 6". You can find one in the Blood Angels errata and the Necron errata, but not the IG.

In case you were wondering, "Flat out" is not a number of inches.

[Renegade]

My numerous references to the rules as written in both the IG rule book and the Big Rule book as well as the errata, would speak to a different conclusion.

Still waiting on that rule that allows a disembark from a vehicle that moves more than 6". You can find one in the Blood Angels errata and the Necron errata, but not the IG.

In case you were wondering, "Flat out" is not a number of inches.

Not does the Grav Chute rule say that one is to reference any other rule considering disembarking, it is its own rule.

So as long as a flat out move occurred, one can Grave Chute, as no reference is given one can only go by the action. Also note that its own disembarkation rules are different to the rule book.

I really do suggest that you read the actual rule, as nothing so far suggests that you have.

[Taz]

My numerous references to the rules as written in both the IG rule book and the Big Rule book as well as the errata, would speak to a different conclusion.

Still waiting on that rule that allows a disembark from a vehicle that moves more than 6". You can find one in the Blood Angels errata and the Necron errata, but not the IG.

In case you were wondering, "Flat out" is not a number of inches.



I thoroughly see your argument on this and agree it is going to need more clarification then what they have halfway put into it currently, however it says you can disembark even if you move flat out, no mention on what mode of flight you are in. I would then refer you to page 81 of the BRB under zoom and flat out. "A zooming flyer that moves Flat Out must move forwards in a straight line between 12" and 24". As the FAQ only says, you may still disembark if you move flat out and a flat out minimum move for a flyer zooming is 12" I would suggest this trumps the 6" rule RAW.

[Idolator]

My real point was that it was the same rule as "skies of blood" and it was just an editing mistake that it no longer does. Just like "dark skies" is also mising an errata update.

That's how I've been playing it.

And about the zooming flyer part. The Valk/Vend does have a hover mode that would allow you to move 6" in a flat out move.

I just use that argument to prove that there needs to be an errata update. Blood angels and Necrons have errata updates that allow for a disembark if moving more than 6", Grav chute doesn't. The Necron errata also has a lifting of a restriction for disembark from a zooming flyer, grav chute doesn't.

Like I said earlier, no matter which side that you come down on, it needs an update.

As of right now, the rule would be an exception to almost all embark/disembark rules, allows models to move three times in a turn (twice in the shooting phase). It also allows the Valk to move a total of 5 feet (further than any other vehicle) and disembark troops, after your entire army has fired to clear as spot for your troops.

It will all shake out when the errata update is made. After all, errata does mean error, and a change will mean that the old stuff was simply a mistake, just like we all know that it is.

[Renegade]

My real point was that it was the same rule as "skies of blood" and it was just an editing mistake that it no longer does. Just like "dark skies" is also mising an errata update.

That's how I've been playing it.

And about the zooming flyer part. The Valk/Vend does have a hover mode that would allow you to move 6" in a flat out move.

I just use that argument to prove that there needs to be an errata update. Blood angels and Necrons have errata updates that allow for a disembark if moving more than 6", Grav chute doesn't. The Necron errata also has a lifting of a restriction for disembark from a zooming flyer, grav chute doesn't.

There is no stipulation in the Grav Chute rule that you have to go into hover mode, so that is invalid, but an option open to the IG player.

You have missed one important part of the rule, one which shows you do not have the rule book. The action is carried out like Deep Strike, not normal disembarking at all.

It works as written, and there is nothing wrong with the way it is written but your misunderstanding of the rules as well as not having them to reference.


Like I said earlier, no matter which side that you come down on, it needs an update.

As of right now, the rule would be an exception to almost all embark/disembark rules, allows models to move three times in a turn (twice in the shooting phase). It also allows the Valk to move a total of 5 feet (further than any other vehicle) and disembark troops, after your entire army has fired to clear as spot for your troops.

It will all shake out when the errata update is made. After all, errata does mean error, and a change will mean that the old stuff was simply a mistake, just like we all know that it is.

However, you are not allowing for the Codex to overrule Rule Book, which is a rule in the Rule Book.

You need to get the codex and read the rule carefully as well as the rule book. So far it seems you have neither.

[Idolator]

The reason that I didn't put the rest of the rule is because it is irrelevant. How you disembark is not relevant because it is still a voluntary disembarkation, which is not allowed if a vehicle moves more than 6".

I happen to play IG, along with Space Marines and Orks. I also have enough Tau to make a pretty good allied force. I have all four codeci and have been playiing for about 5 1/2 years.

When the errata update happens and they fix the rule to match "Skies of Blood" what will your response be???

Since my assertion is that it's an obvious mistake and yours is that it was intended. If they change it in the errata, that means it's an error fix.

What will you say? I will gladly say that I was wrong if they do leave it that way.

I don't know how to prove that I have the books, other than the fact that everything that I have posted has been factual and supported with references.

Still waiting on that lifting of the 6" restriction, however.

[Renegade]

The reason that I didn't put the rest of the rule is because it is irrelevant. How you disembark is not relevant because it is still a voluntary disembarkation, which is not allowed if a vehicle moves more than 6".

Deep Strike is its own thing, it is totally different to the disembark rules. You are purposefully ignoring the rules for the action. The rules for Grav Chute Insertion are their own thing, as per Rule Book, and they do not reference back to the rule book.

Rules As Written are as follows.

I have performed flat out, the rule states that I can Grav Chute a units anywhere between the start and finish point of the move.

Codex > BRB on the distance, as no restriction is written in C:IG for Grav Chute Insertion. The ONLY stipulation is that the Valkyrie/Vendetta moved Flat Out.

Codex and BRB are in dispute, codex rules trump BRB.

Grav Chute Insertion> Disembark rules, it is a codex special rule which the BRB categorically states over rules what the rules in the BRB are. It has its own rules to carry out the action, those are the only rules that are followed, unless it says to refer to BRB.


I happen to play IG, along with Space Marines and Orks. I also have enough Tau to make a pretty good allied force. I have all four codeci and have been playiing for about 5 1/2 years.

When the errata update happens and they fix the rule to match "Skies of Blood" what will your response be???

Since my assertion is that it's an obvious mistake and yours is that it was intended. If they change it in the errata, that means it's an error fix.

What will you say? I will gladly say that I was wrong if they do leave it that way.

I don't know how to prove that I have the books, other than the fact that everything that I have posted has been factual and supported with references.

Still waiting on that lifting of the 6" restriction, however.

I don't believe you, as you haven't quoted any of the rules from the codex to support your case other than those quoted by myself. Not in your opening or at any other time.

[Lungpickle]

Just remember old GSI rules said if one moel cant be placed it died. Now it says if one cant be placed they all die. Thats the change from 5th to 6th. Still can do i in the flat out phase but are destroyed if theres a mishap, no roll needed. Oh id let them jump out everytime in the flat out phase no shooting from them, and a better chance of them all dying.

:D

[Renegade]

Just remember old GSI rules said if one moel cant be placed it died. Now it says if one cant be placed they all die. Thats the change from 5th to 6th. Still can do i in the flat out phase but are destroyed if theres a mishap, no roll needed. Oh id let them jump out everytime in the flat out phase no shooting from them, and a better chance of them all dying.

:D

You never got a roll anyway, if a model could not deploy the unit was destroyed. This does mean that you would still have to have a situation where a mishap would normally occur (the rule change just removes the usage of as if rolled a "1 or 2 on the deep strike mishap table".

That being the only change, looks like I was right. FAQ here (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420313a_Imperial_Guard_6th_Ed_V1.pdf)

[Idolator]

You may want to check the Errata. It turns out that I was right on the money. Wow. Are you going to admit that you were wrong there renegade.

It was a mistake and should have mirrored the skies of blood rule. As it now does.

You should never have been able to disembark in the shooting phase.

I know that you won't admit that I was right. But I needed to put this up, just to give you the option.

[Renegade]

You may want to check the Errata. It turns out that I was right on the money. Wow. Are you going to admit that you were wrong there renegade.

It was a mistake and should have mirrored the skies of blood rule. As it now does.

You should never have been able to disembark in the shooting phase.

I know that you won't admit that I was right. But I needed to put this up, just to give you the option.

Not at all. They changed the wording of the rule, as it was I was correct going by RAW before the change.

You may want to note that they still have the option after moving 6 inches, the only thing that really has changed is when they can do so.

[Idolator]

Not at all. They changed the wording of the rule, as it was I was correct going by RAW before the change.

You may want to note that they still have the option after moving 6 inches, the only thing that really has changed is when they can do so.

So, I argued that they made a mistake and forgot to update the Grav Chute rule and that it was supposed to mirror the Skies of Blood rule.

You argued that they intended to leave it the same as before, even though it didn't fit with the current rules set. Also arguing that it meant that you either had to move less than 6" or had to move flat out to disembark.

They finally got around to correcting the issue and you are still arguing that they intended to leave it the way that it was, even though they have changed it.

I'm going to leave it here. You are obviously not making a good faith argument and it is now apparent that you were never making a good faith argument to get to the bottom of how the rule should be read.

Good day sir!