The Eldar Nightwing

[eldargal]

Has anyone had any luck using the Nightwing in its role as anti-air fighter? I've used them in five games now and in each game each Nightwing has struggled to do much at all. One or two hull points off a flyer a game if I'm lucky. It took three nightwings in a game of Apocalypse three turns to take down a sodding Valkyrie.

While I like the Shrouded, Agile and Vector Dancer rules, I can't help but feel it just lacks the firepower to fulfill its assigned role effectively. I ended up using them to shoot walkers.

[DrLove42]

The problem stems from fliers being AV12. The Valk and Stormraven should never have been 12 (from a flying point of view that puts the mass produced Valk to be as durable as the Thunderhawk)

I have used them in one game, but didn't have any enemy fliers.

Yes a 2+ evade save is nice if we don't shoot effectivly next turn, but seeing as you do it before Hull Pen results and only have 2 hull points if you get hit, you generally need to go evasive to protect your investment. I think its some what crazy overpriced compared to other fliers. Yes it has the option to be more survivable but at the lowest AV and hull points of all the fliers, it does't even have the firepower to warrent more.

It needs shots into rear armour of 10 to be eefective. Which makes it down right useless against the Sotrmraven. Any Eldar player knows that AV12 is a pain in the backside

[eldargal]

Yep, I've yet to lose a Nightwing to enemy fire, but their killing power is pathetic. They really have to evade to survive, as you say, and if they evade they can't shoot. In contrast an AV12, 3HP flyer doesn't really need to evade when faced with two bright lance shots even against its rear armour.

Two bright lances @ AV10
2 Shots @ BS4/1 hit/.8HP lost.

So roughly a Nightwing will strip 1HP off an AV10 flyer a turn, and if it is AV12 and you can't get at it's rear armour it gets worse. The lance rule is virtually useless except against Caestus assault rams.

Solutions:

Drop Nightwings in points and let them have squadrons of 1-3.
Give them a 'Nightwing Bright Lance' that is Heavy 2.
???

[DrLove42]

I'm still dissapointed we don't get the Interceptor rule of +1 BS aginst aircraft, like the Phoenix gets Strafing Run. Wouldn't really have made a huge difference but still

Also against AV10 remember the cannons....

6 shots @ BS4 = 4 hit S6, 2 Glances on AV10, 0.33 glances on a AV12

The flyer is the same points cost it was in IA11. Its lost its permanant 4+ save for a questionable one. Its got the lowest HP, making it weaker.

In IA11 it had interceptor, making it the only aircraft that had all its weapons AA (skyfire) mounted. And it could move shorter distances than other fliers.

Its lost a lot, gained very little and still maintained its points cost which as a point of interest is 5 points HIGHER than the AV 12/12/10 3HP Vendetta, which has hover, transport, 3 Twinlinked S9 shots and 6 S5 AP4 Hvy Bolter shots.

So we're weaker, less heavily armed and less survivable....but can choose to not fire and survive better (FYI if the Valk evades to get a save its still got a better shooting chance as its weapons are TL). And yet we're still more expensive

Edit - Sorry forgot we get Vector Dancer. Not the most useful thing in the world but nice. Oh whats that....the Punisher Cannon Valkyrie gets the same rule? Good to know that that Valk is as maneuverable as an Eldar fighter

[eldargal]

Oh yes, I forgot the cannons.

It is the valkyrie which really pisses me off. Cheaper and superior in every way. I even raised these issues with FW before the book was even on sale (though maybe it was printed by then) and they really just brushed it off. Imperium gets all these nice toys with great rules and eldar just get crap.:mad:

[DrLove42]

Vendetta does nothing but annoy me.

Cheaper, better in nearly every way.

It was hilariously cheap when it was jsut a skimmer, but now it has more movement and more shooting, is unassaultable and is only hit on 6's its disgustingly cheap

[eldargal]

Yep, while my three Nightwings were chasing a squadron of three vendettas and managed to kill one over four turns, those same vendetta blew up a several Phoenixes (which are great air-ground flyers) and nearly destroyed a Vampire Hunter on their own. All for five points less than the Nightwings.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I have a feeling that I shouldn't have read this thread.

*mechanical sigh*

[eldargal]

Why?

I am asking for other peoples experiences in the hope that perhaps I'm just having terrible luck and Nightwings aren't as bad as all that.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

The Nightwings that I have used have dominated the battlefield, that's even against Charlie, our beardiest Guard player.

I sigh because I love the Imperium.

[eldargal]

Can you give some specifics? I'm very glad to hear it, as indicated mine have performed terribly.:(

[DrLove42]

Are you playing the same Eldar codex as us?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Yeah...

I overload my opponents with targets so that the Nightwings seem like less of a threat.

I can't really go into in depth detail otherwise it arouses suspicion at work. :/

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

DrLove, if you remind me later I'll tell you via EL FACEBOOK. :p

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Mmm, the Valk's high AV is... weird. Its original FW rules had it being a lot more fragile, but when it was included in the IG 'dex it was described as "the armour plating of the aircrafts are commonly reinforced. Whilst the added weight restricts the ability to operate at the highest altitudes..."

It looks like it was originally intended to be a "ground attack" kinda variant since there weren't Flyer rules in 5th... but then they made it into a full-on Flyer anyways.

[Archon Charybdis]

The Nightwing is kind of underpowered for its points, but comparing it to the Vendetta/Valk is also an issue of perspective--both of them are just underpriced as ****. A 30-40pt price increase for a Vendetta would not be unreasonable.

[Anggul]

Give them a 'Nightwing Bright Lance' that is Heavy 2

They could just make them Pulse Lasers. As you said, the lance rule doesn't matter anyway.

That and give them 3 HP. The Razorwing does, and it's pretty much the same size.


Forgeworld really do just seem to dislike Eldar for no apparent reason.

[Archon Charybdis]

Forgeworld really do just seem to dislike Eldar for no apparent reason.

After the Titan Holo-fields nerf, I compared the Phantom stats and cost to the Reaver and it made me throw up a little in my mouth.

Anyway, as far as the Nightwing, I've said a few times I think a cool and fluffy way to make it more useful would be to allow it to continue firing at enemy flyers on normal BS even while jinking. It fits their fluff perfectly-- damn near impossible to hit (3+ cover save from Shrouded + Jink), moderately armed, incomparable air-to-air fighters.

[eldargal]

Ok, possibly revising my opinion of the Nightwing slightly. I was grumping about it last night to my brothers and they thought it didn't seem as bad as all that. So we played a flyer heavy game and my two Nightwing actually did very well, managing to take down a vendetta each and another valkyrie between them over a five turn game.

But even if my original run of poor performance was just bad luck, I still think the Nightwing needs a boost. Either a points reduction, or allowing them to be taken in squadrons so we can at least match some of the Imperium flyers in numbers if not firepower.

[Bean]

It is the valkyrie which really pisses me off. Cheaper and superior in every way. I even raised these issues with FW before the book was even on sale (though maybe it was printed by then) and they really just brushed it off. Imperium gets all these nice toys with great rules and eldar just get crap.:mad:

Join the club. The vendetta (and valk, though I think to a lesser degree) were hilariously underpriced when they were skimmers--now they're right up there, if not at then near, the top of the "most broken thing in the game" chart.

And I do think broken is the right word, here.

[ljal]

Hi,
I have used two nightwings (coverted razoorwings) yesterday against SM and bring down in one turn stormtalon using brightlances (two HP gone - crrrraash!). Then i shot some SM. Still i liked them Very Much. And this feeling saying : 2+ cover save after SM shots with missile launcher :D.

[Defenestratus]

I figured I'd chime in here since I play with three nightwings and a phoenix in my Eldar shooty list.

So far they have done spectacularly.

None of my opponents seem to want to shoot at them except with things that can only snapfire anyways... I still haven't lost a single one yet.

My typical opponents are DE, IG and SM. Against all of them they have completely annihilated the opponents' light transports, and in the case of DE and IG, made his infantry cry. Against DE, they blew the Ravagers out of the Sky, and they never take more than two turns to kill a vendetta (bright lances usually do the job but I've glanced one to death before). If you go second, or manage to delay their entry onto the board until the vendetta comes on, then the vendetta stands no chance really.

All in all I'm more than pleased with them. Could they be better? Yes, sure they could.