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Denzark
10-01-2009, 07:26 AM
Hello chaps. Possible loophole I would appreciate your take on.

I am just planning for an apocalypse game, and saw the hydras in the apoc rulebook - 200pts. So I look in C:IG - 75 points each. No guesses as to which ones you'd choose, right? Particularly against flyers.

Then I look further - the C:IG do not have the AA Mount entry. As far as I can tell, this means that RAW whilst they may ignore skimmer saves, they do not get any bonus for shooting at flyers ie with own BS. To do this you would have to purchase a 200 pointer from the apoc book with the AA Mount rule.

Any comments or thoughts, have I got this right and has anyone considerd this before?

Cheers

Culven
10-01-2009, 08:37 AM
It sounds like you have the issues well defined. I don't know what the resolution would be other than suggest that you look at the IA FAQs and Errata from Forgeworld to see if they have addressed it. Otherwise, discuss it with the other players when you arrange the Apocalypse game.

BuFFo
10-01-2009, 09:52 AM
You will not find anything to do with Flyers or AA mounts in the 40k game because they don't exist.

You need to play with ForgeWorld 40k Rules for those things.

Even though both systems are essentially the same game, they are still two different systems.

TSINI
10-01-2009, 11:31 AM
yes unfortunately its a great soup of weirdness due entirely to GW making a hash of releasing apocalypse, and filling it with "soon to be updated" IG entries, then not re-apocalypsing them after the IG codex come out

also there is the case of the manticore, in the Imperial Armour Vol1 Update PDF, you can take it cheaper, and then select different rockets for it. the free option (cheaper than the IG codex) gives it 7" diameter str 9 ap 1 rockets...

then of course there is the valkyrie/vultures

they are skimmers, but in the IA pdf update, they can also be flyers in apoc games, using the hover mode rule


in the case of the hydra I personally would (and indeed have) allow the hydra gun to count as having an AA mount aswell as its other new Codex rules, I mean, the AA mount is still there, regardless of what the rules say.

Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer
10-01-2009, 12:31 PM
Well, forgeworld's most recent update gives them AA mounts, and they cost 75 points. AA strikes me as one of the upgrades which is given automatically (such as searchlights, or frag grenades), as its uses are too specific to justify it using points in a take all comers list.

SandWyrm
10-01-2009, 12:40 PM
Any comments or thoughts, have I got this right and has anyone considerd this before?

Cheers

It's come up before. You can choose to take either the 75 pt. IG5 Hydra w/o the AA bonus, or the official Apoc Hydra with it. It's up to you.

But I think that if you math-hammer it, 3 IG5 Hydras will do just as good or better vs. fliers than a single 200 pt. Apoc Hydra, while being much more deadly to everything else.

StarWarsDoug
10-01-2009, 02:58 PM
You will not find anything to do with Flyers or AA mounts in the 40k game because they don't exist.
You need to play with ForgeWorld 40k Rules for those things.

If you re-read the post, he is talking about Apocalypse. Which does have Flyer and AA rules and is not Forgeworld.


*

My take is, if you play an Apoc Game, then you pay the 200 pt cost...OR you can elect to take the C:IG cost in an Apoc game and not get the bonus, in which case your opponent should take a few flyers and ruin your butt. :P

If it's a 40k game and Apoc rules are not in effect, it's C:IG cost, nmw.

lobster-overlord
10-01-2009, 03:33 PM
In a 40k small game, you only need deploy the tank with it's regular crew since the small battles only see the skimmers. In an Apoc game, your army has to go find the tank commander who has more experience as shooting at the big flyers, drag him from the bar, and then pay him the extra 125 points to go to battle...

He's wasted his time if have to buy him for a flyer-less battle.

John M>

BuFFo
10-02-2009, 10:45 AM
If you re-read the post, he is talking about Apocalypse. Which does have Flyer and AA rules and is not Forgeworld.


*

My take is, if you play an Apoc Game, then you pay the 200 pt cost...OR you can elect to take the C:IG cost in an Apoc game and not get the bonus, in which case your opponent should take a few flyers and ruin your butt. :P

If it's a 40k game and Apoc rules are not in effect, it's C:IG cost, nmw.

It never ends....

If you re re re re re re re re re read his post, you'll see that he is asking about a possible loophole as to why the Codex:IG version doesn't have AA mounts. There is NO loophole, the 75 point Hydra works exactly as intended.

Apoc and 40k are two different game systems. You will never find Apoc rules in 40k Codexes, such as Flyers and AA mounts.

Try again. Move along.

Joyous_Oblivion
10-02-2009, 05:12 PM
It never ends....

If you re re re re re re re re re read his post, you'll see that he is asking about a possible loophole as to why the Codex:IG version doesn't have AA mounts. There is NO loophole, the 75 point Hydra works exactly as intended.

Apoc and 40k are two different game systems. You will never find Apoc rules in 40k Codexes, such as Flyers and AA mounts.

Try again. Move along.

Despite you trying rather rudely to sum this up it didn't help the discussion.

The FW Hydra is 75 points w/ the AA Mounts, the Imperial Guard Hydra is 75 points w/o the AA mounts.

Which you choose depends on the game you are playing. Take the FW rules when playing Apoc, and take the ImpGuard rules when playing normal 40k.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/pdf/IA1update28AUG.pdf

Page 11, second entry on page.

Denzark
10-03-2009, 05:37 AM
Despite you trying rather rudely to sum this up it didn't help the discussion.

The FW Hydra is 75 points w/ the AA Mounts, the Imperial Guard Hydra is 75 points w/o the AA mounts.

Which you choose depends on the game you are playing. Take the FW rules when playing Apoc, and take the ImpGuard rules when playing normal 40k.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/pdf/IA1update28AUG.pdf

Page 11, second entry on page.

Good spot I forgot said update. that being the case makes no sense for GW to have 2 separatecodex entries does it? Same fluff, supposed to be the same vehicle (not different patterns etc) so why not the same ability?

Jwolf
10-03-2009, 09:33 AM
As has been mentioned, Apoc and 40K are different games that involve some of the same rules. Codices only have 40K rules in them.

Denzark
10-03-2009, 11:28 AM
As has been mentioned, Apoc and 40K are different games that involve some of the same rules. Codices only have 40K rules in them.

Respectfully this is an oversimplified view - you can form an apoc army without superheavy/forgeworld/apoc book rules - ie purely codex units. Thus the codexes have not only rules for 40k in them but rules for apoc in them (if you are saying it is a different game) and also by that reasoning, planetstrike or city fight.

BuFFo
10-03-2009, 12:11 PM
Despite you trying rather rudely to sum this up it didn't help the discussion.

The FW Hydra is 75 points w/ the AA Mounts, the Imperial Guard Hydra is 75 points w/o the AA mounts.

Which you choose depends on the game you are playing. Take the FW rules when playing Apoc, and take the ImpGuard rules when playing normal 40k.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/pdf/IA1update28AUG.pdf

Page 11, second entry on page.

My point exactly, there is no loophole.

One vehicle has rules for one game, and the other vehicle has rules for another game.

So there is nothing rude about anything I said. Don't tell me I didn't read a post when my responder clearly didn't.

There is no loophole. In Apoc, use whichever Hydra you want. In 40k, you can only use the IG Hydra unless your opponent says otherwise.

Its that simple.


Respectfully this is an oversimplified view - you can form an apoc army without superheavy/forgeworld/apoc book rules - ie purely codex units. Thus the codexes have not only rules for 40k in them but rules for apoc in them (if you are saying it is a different game) and also by that reasoning, planetstrike or city fight.

Yes, it is EXACTLY that simple.

Don't over complicate a simple situation.

Aldramelech
10-03-2009, 12:33 PM
Surely these are not separate games, their supplements of the main game? Apoc is not a stand alone set of rules, you still need the 40k rules to play, or did I miss something?

Denzark
10-03-2009, 01:30 PM
Surely these are not separate games, their supplements of the main game? Apoc is not a stand alone set of rules, you still need the 40k rules to play, or did I miss something?

Yeah sort of what I thought.

Xas
10-04-2009, 05:10 AM
every talking about this after the mentioning of the IA1 update is pointless.

there you get a hydra for 75points with the same stats as the new IG codex hydra AND an AA mount (for free).

in the apoc book you have a 200pts hydra with AA mounth but no targeting system. mathy wise this is even on a 1:1 (poitns wise I'd be 1:2,5) ratio less effective. why does it exist? well because the rulebook is old and back then AA was something quite worth a point but now FW seams to go the line that fliers have a good palce in the game even with cheap AA around.


so basically for any sane person there are two rulesets to use which basically come down to one practical way:
if there is aircraft on the field your codex-IG hydra has an AA mount.


longer lines: if you play a no-fw-allowed 40k game you use the IG-dex entry which does not have AA. luckyly ALL "flier" vehicles are from FW rulesets so they will not turn up.
if you play a fw-enhanced game of standard 40k some smaller fliers can be used as heavy supports by some army but at same time you can use your IA1-updated hydra which comes with the free AA mount.

TSINI
10-04-2009, 06:43 AM
The Imperial Armour Vol1 update is the Definitive ruleset for all vehicles.

its the most up to date (ie most recent), it contains all the Codex:IG vehicles- with the Apocalypse additions (hover mode for the valkyrie, AA mount for the Hydra) with no extra points.

therefore it can be safe to say

Use Codex IG for normal 40,000 games

In games which use Flyers (apocalypse for example) use the IA Vol 1 update to allow the valkyrie to gain Hover mode, and the Hydra to gain the AA mount.

SandWyrm
10-04-2009, 10:34 PM
In games which use Flyers (apocalypse for example) use the IA Vol 1 update to allow the valkyrie to gain Hover mode, and the Hydra to gain the AA mount.

That's great, *if* you use the IA books. Not everyone does.

BuFFo
10-05-2009, 01:35 AM
Surely these are not separate games, their supplements of the main game? Apoc is not a stand alone set of rules, you still need the 40k rules to play, or did I miss something?

Apoc is 40k. Apoc uses the base rules from 40k.

40k is not apoc. there are no such rules that exist that support flyers or super heavies. Heck, when you open the 40k rule book, it tells you what you need to play the game, and there is no mention of forgeworld, or apoc, anywhere in the base 40k book or codexes.

They are two separate games with different enough rules that you can only mix the games one way, and never the other, unless you and your opponent agree to do so.


The Imperial Armour Vol1 update is the Definitive ruleset for all vehicles.

its the most up to date (ie most recent), it contains all the Codex:IG vehicles- with the Apocalypse additions (hover mode for the valkyrie, AA mount for the Hydra) with no extra points.

therefore it can be safe to say

Use Codex IG for normal 40,000 games

In games which use Flyers (apocalypse for example) use the IA Vol 1 update to allow the valkyrie to gain Hover mode, and the Hydra to gain the AA mount.


Agreed.

TSINI
10-05-2009, 05:23 AM
That's great, *if* you use the IA books. Not everyone does.

I would argue that those who do not allow IA Books in Apoc are narrow minded and petty, and would therefore not waste my time playing against them - its a fun game that allows anything, including gigantic titans, why shouldnt you be able to field other vehicles that has rules that were designed accross the road from GW HQ ...by a GW licensed company... run by GW guys....

I'm pretty sure that in the end, you'll find that Forgeworld IA vehicles are probably approved pointswise by the guys that write the main rules and codexes. So I don't really see the need for this Forgeworld Apartide.

I can understand reservations in competitions, and possibly some small normal 40k games, but I would still expect my opponent to enjoy a friendly game involving IA/Forgeworld vehicles - they are fun to play afterall.

Gir
10-05-2009, 06:55 AM
That's great, *if* you use the IA books. Not everyone does.

Considering you can get a lot of the rules for free from the Forge World website, why wouldn't you?

Javin
10-05-2009, 07:33 AM
Why is this still going on?

The Hydra is 75 points in either version of the game.

FW has faqed the AA hydra down to 75 points.

End of story.

BuFFo
10-05-2009, 02:15 PM
Why is this still going on?

You should read the thread to find out why.


The Hydra is 75 points in either version of the game.

FW has faqed the AA hydra down to 75 points.

End of story.

This is not why.

Javin
10-05-2009, 02:51 PM
I read the thread. In http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/pdf/IA1update28AUG.pdf the FW Hydra gives the auto targeter and AA mount for 75 points. The 200 point hydra is like 4th edition, history and no longer part of the current game.

So like was stated earlier in the thread if its not Apoc you use the regular Hydra, if its Apoc, use the FW rules. You get the best of both worlds.

Xas
10-05-2009, 03:50 PM
That's great, *if* you use the IA books. Not everyone does.

in apok games without FW (how silly is that anyways?!?) you do not use any type of hydra for anti air.

why? because they few fliers that exist in the apok core book are petty and dont require anti air to deal with (or in the sole example which is not petty the thunderhawk gunship it is armored well enough to pretty much laugh at any hydra you put down anyway).

just ignore them. the real dangerous ones are the eldar and tau super heavy fliers and those only exist in FW books.