Yet another Grey Knight list

[Eberk]

This is the list I have come up with...

So I would like to know what the strengths and weaknesses of this army are (so I can adapt my playing style accordingly). Comments like "drop this, take that instead" is not really what I seek because I already own most models of this list ;) Just let me know what army/units I am ill-equipped to deal with.

Grey Knights (1000pts.)

HQ
- Brother-Captain + Nemesis Daemon hammer
155pts.

TROOPS
- Terminator Squad + Nemesis falchions (for Justicar), daemon hammer & Psycannon
230pt.

- Strike Squad + Nemesis falchions (for Justicar), 3 Nemesis halberds & Incinerator
145pt
Rhino + hunter-killer missile
50pt.

FAST ATTACK
- Interceptor Squad + Nemesis halberd (for Justicar), Nemesis Warding stave, Incinerator & psybolt ammunition
200pt.

HEAVY SUPPORT
-Purgation Squad + 2 psycannons
140pt.
Razorback + twin-linked Lascannons
80pt.

So... strengths ?? weaknesses ??

(PS: this force was only once fielded as part of a 1500pts force - together with a Land Raider Redeemer, a Deadknight and an Inquisitor psyker - in which they performed admirably - vs 1000pts Space Marines & 500pt Eldar)

[Bean]

Thoughts:

The difference between a Brother Captain and a Grand Master is 25 points and Grand Strategy--and Grand Strategy is more than worth the 25 points. Always play the Grand Master over the Brother Captain. If you really only have 150 points to spend on your HQ, play a bare-bones librarian with two divination powers instead (or Coteaz, who is amazing, and put those extra 50 points somewhere else).

Nemesis Falchions aren't really a good buy--especially on Terminators, who can get Halberds and Hammers (both of which are better) for free.

I don't think I'd buy halberds for the Strike Squad, either (nor Falchions, though a hammer isn't a terrible buy) and I certainly, certainly wouldn't play an incinerator there over a psycannon.

Looks like the interceptor squad is five guys with a ton of upgrades. Better to have more guys and fewer upgrades--and psybolt really isn't worth it on five guys.

Not sure about the Razorback for the Purgation squad--they can't shoot out of it, so they don't actually want to spend any time in it, and it's not a good enough gunboat to be worthwhile if you're not using the transport capacity for something. Don't bother. Actually, just play another Strike Squad with double psycannons (always, always play double psycannons in your strike squads), instead. Put them in a rhino, if you want--the shots they take out the top are about as good as anything you'll get from a razorback anyway--or play them on foot. Either way, they score, which makes them a better investment than a purgation squad (though, if you upgrade to a Grand Master, you'll routinely find yourself using Grand Strategy to make your Interceptors score, anyway, so this'll be less of a concern.)

All in all, you're on the right track, but it looks like you've fallen into the trap of spending way too much on upgrades. I get it, they're shiny and cool, but too many upgrades and not enough guys can be a serious weakness, and I think you're pretty much there with this list. Cut some of the fluff off. Fit in some more guys.

Your list is basically just guys and transports, but you're only actually bringing 21 guys and two tanks--only six of those are terminators, and both tanks are rhino chassis.

By cutting filler you could probably fit another ten or fifteen guys in there--and that'll do you far more good than halberds in a strike squad, psybolt ammo on four interceptors, or an HK on a rhino.

[Seirin]

Before I start I'd like to say, I will try to fulfill your request as best as possible, but against most experienced players you will likely struggle against whatever they're playing. The main reason for this is, I think, a lack of experience with GKs and thus a lack of unit role understanding. GKs are essentially the ultimate all-rounders, but each unit does have something it does best - purifiers have combat, strikes have mid field and interceptors have shooting.

Firstly I'll second what Bean said about grand masters vs brother captains. For the 25 points you go from an average character to a top-notch HQ just from grand strategy. My personal advice for a GM or BC then is to play unit-buffing rather than personal badass - hes always a badass but what he can do for units is sickening. Thus: Grenades, and lots of em. I've heard a lot of people say that all 3 grenades together is overkill, but really for the points vs effect...they really can be game changing.

Bean was also dead right about too many upgrades. Ignoring falchions for now, if using razorbacks a TL heavy bolter and psybolt is a great all-round weapon and you get it for peanuts. Rhinos do make more use of psycannons, but if the unit's job is to bunker on an objective then a razorback works fine - good LoS blocker and fire support.

The interceptors appear to be too combat-oriented. Thats really not their forte; interceptors are essentially glorified strike knights with extra movement. Keep em cheap and make use of their 36~54" effective shooting range (24" + either 12" or 30" movement) and use combat as a mop-up or safety measure. Psybolts: worth it for 10-man squads, not for 5-man.

Few closing points. Firstly: drop the falchions, compared to what other weapons do for less points, they are essentially useless. Second, terminators get halberds and hammers free, and with the boost terminators saw from 6th edition, both those options just got more attractive. A MC halberd on your justiciar for challenges and 2 hammer/2 halberd setup for the others is near ideally balanced.

Using the models you have and assuming you have some spares left from the box sets..how does this list sound?

HQ
Grand master: rad/blind/psychotrope, hammer: 210

Troops
5 Terminators, 2 hammer, 2 Halberd, MC halberd and psycannon: 230

10 Strike Knights, 2 psycannons, Hammer, MC halberd (Justiciar), psybolt: 260

Fast attack
10 interceptors, 2 psycannons and psybolt: 300

1000pts: no tanks but retaining a mobile section and 2~5 scoring units.


Or:

HQ Grand master, grenades and MC sword (or normal hammer): 210

Troops
5 terminators, psycannon, 2 halberd/2 hammer/warding stave: 245

5 Strike marines, psycannon, hammer, razorback with psybolt: 170

5 Strike marines, psycannon, hammer, razorback with psybolt: 170

Fast attack
7 interceptors, psycannon, hammer: 202

Less units, more mobility.

[Bean]

Yeah, sorry. I didn't read your post carefully enough.

Problems you're likely to encounter: Your terminators are reasonable in combat, but the rest of your army is small squads of guys that aren't combat focused. They're going to crumple in combat to anything significant.

You're a little short on anti-tank. Not enough Chimaera spam and razorspam (less common now than before, perhaps, but certainly not gone) will give you trouble.

Again, aside from the terminators, your units are on the fragile side, and you don't actually have that many of them. Your ability to effectively engage multiple targets is limited, and will drop quickly.

You'll probably be fine against some armies, but any army with a lot of tank based shooting or a lot of strong, dedicated close combat--especially hordy close combat--will be a problem for you. Basic mech guard, horde guard, horde orks (to a lesser extent mech orks--here you can blow up the trukks and whittle down the squads, though a battlewagon with nobs or nob bikers could potentially roll big swaths of your army on its own) all pose problems. Good space wolves...better GK. That seems like the big contenders, I think, though Necrons and foot DE could be a problem, since they'll likely outshoot you.

[Eberk]

Thanks for the input guys... you have given me food for thought and I am already busy tweaking my army (short of breaking the arms of models I already glued together :D)


Some things were totally unexpected I must say...

Incinerators, personally I love them -> template weapon, S6, no cover, a lot of hits eacht time they fire. Why would you change all of them to psycannons (when moving only assault 2 and with 24" range not really that much).
My idea was for Strike and Interceptor squads to get stuck really close (so template weapon) in and the purgation squads for a little 'long' range support (thus psycannons/psilencers).

So please tell me more why Incinerators are a no-no.



Same with the Force weapons. I gave my GK's upgrades because a normal force swords doesn't have any additional bonus for a power armoured marine (no invulnerable, so no extra bonus). That's why my Termies have normal swords.
Halberds (+2 I to fight first) and Falchions (+ 1 A) looked really good in my opinion.
Warding stave... especially now with the new wound allocation, a strategically placed warding stave can do wonders I think (soak up some saves to keep the other knights alive longer)

So please tell me why Termies should have halberds and common knights swords ?? (as seen in the 2 proposed lists)


BTW the Rhino with HK missile is already history. I still had to buy that model so it was easy to remove it from my list ;)

[Bean]

It's not that incinerators aren't good. Rather, it's three things: psycannons are more versatile, the army generally has enough anti-infantry firepower anyway, and neither strike squads nor interceptors want to have to commit to combat to get the most out of their gun (which a flamed basically requires). The ability to engage a variety of targets from a good distance while moving is what makes both strike squads and interceptors good and, while both are reasonable in combat, neither is great--psycannons play to their strengths. Incinerators do not.

Halberds are good on terminators because they are better than swords and free--they aren't free on strike squads, and there they are not really worth the points. It's not that swords are better than halberds for power armor guys--quite the opposite, obviously--it's that the improvement isn't worth the points you pay for it.

Same with staves. They are good, but more for serious combat units--which strike squads and interceptors aren't. They're especially dubious on both small squads (which aren't really durable enough to put them to good use anyway) and non-characters (since they can't utilize challenges to pick out and tank enemy combat characters).
Again, it's not that theyre bad, they're just not always worth the points--especially in an army like yours that is really short on guys.

Finally, you don have silencers in your list, but I see you mention them--don't ever ever play psilencers. They are dismally awful that...I have trouble coming up with a sufficient superlative. Psycannons are one of the best things in the book. In general, you want to fit as many of them in as your squads can possibly take. Occasionally, incinerators might make for an acceptable swap, but, as a rule, the best optimization for any overall scheme will involve as many psycannons as will fit--and absolutely no psilencers.

[Wildcard]

These answers are based on my opinions, and are most likely not in line with competitive players. That said:


So please tell me more why Incinerators are a no-no.
Incinerators are great, but in 6th they have few serious shortcomings:
- str6 with only ap 4 and a range of roughly 8" (the range of template), but you can hardly do anything against vehicles with it
- You have to get close to the enemy to fire it effectively (not a very good idea against many oppoenents, as was stated before)
- Most importantly (as with most of the quotes later on), its not what you get, but what you lose in the exchange. 4x str 7 rending 24" shots makes you stay safe and do more damage to a wider variety of enemies for multiple turns before you get locked in combat and thus cannot shoot with the weapon.

Then the Force Weapons:


looked really good in my opinion.


Halberds (+2 I to fight first)
This is true against I4-I6 enemies, and you are correct, in many ways it is wonderfull upgrade (for termies that get it for free, and for purifiers that pay like 2 points for one).


Falchions (+ 1 A)
This is very expensive upgrade for the benefit you get out of it, and more importantly what you have to trade to get it. (look for the answer to Halberds and basic nemesis force swords for more info)


Warding stave... especially now with the new wound allocation, a strategically placed warding stave can do wonders I think (soak up some saves to keep the other knights alive longer)
Its a good upgrade, yet very expensive. And it only works in close combat, a place where you shouln't be willingly charging (atleast if you are not sure you can wipe the enemy, or atleast inflict so serious casualties, that they cant harm you in any great way back when they strike)


So please tell me why Termies should have halberds and common knights swords ?? (as seen in the 2 proposed lists)

Nemesis Force Swords give +1 to invulnerable save when in close combat if the model already has an invulnerable save. This means that terminator with a sword will have 2+ / 4++ save in close combat (and even 3++ if you get librarian and divination power number 3 if i remember it right)

[Bean]

Huh. My phone just did a weird, very belated double post. Not quite sure what happened there...

[DarkLink]

I think he was asking why halberds on Terminators and swords on GKSS.

Halberds are better than swords, because killing your target before he strikes is better than +1 to your Invulnerable save. You might want one sword to take power fist wounds, but then you might as well buy a Warding Stave. Which is well worth it, especially on a character for challenges.

Conversely, on GKSS Halberds are too expensive. It's just not worth the points investment to buy Halberds for GKSS, so you keep swords on everything except maybe a hammer or again, a warding stave on your character for challenges.

[Seirin]

Pretty much as dark said.

Only thing I would say is...I personally argue a halberd on the justiciar for challenges - anything that doesn't have a 2+ save or good invul will be in real danger from a halberd, even I5/6 characters.

[Bean]

Pretty much as dark said.

Only thing I would say is...I personally argue a halberd on the justiciar for challenges - anything that doesn't have a 2+ save or good invul will be in real danger from a halberd, even I5/6 characters.

Yeah, though anything that doesn't have a 2+ or good invulnerable will be in real danger from a stave, too, even I5/6 charcters--that stave is very likely to weather whatever they throw at it, and then (if not sooner) it'll do the same damage as a halberd.

Halberd is free though, so I think that's what I'd do for regular ole' termies. Not sure I'd shell out for the stave.

[DarkLink]

Staves are just too valuable in a challenge. 2++ trumps almost everything else.

[Eberk]

but each unit does have something it does best - purifiers have combat, strikes have mid field and interceptors have shooting. Huh ?? Interceptors with their Personal Teleporters have shooting ?? Why ?? I saw them as an 'annoying' unit, to deep strike and shunt where your opponent does not want them and to deny objectives.
(In my 1 battle with them they deep striked next to some dire avengers, incinerated 5 out of 10 plus shot 2 more, then next turn 'shunted' to a SM Tac. combat squad guarding an objective and incinerated 2 and shot 1 more and denied the objective)


Finally, you don have silencers in your list, but I see you mention them--don't ever ever play psilencers. My initial Purgation squad had, apart from the Justicar, 2 psycannons and 2 psilencers in it (for 160 points). I was looking for a solid firebase - which 22 shots from 5 guys is - but was not happy with the range, only heavy option (thus no move and normal shooting) and no AP from the weapons... So I already scrapped them from the list.
(still have those 2 models lying around...)


and are most likely not in line with competitive players. No worries, I am far from a competitive player. Although I want my army to be able to handle a lot and perform good I still take some options because they just look amazing on the table :)

[Eberk]

So the new, reworked list looks like this:

Grey Knights (1000pts.)

HQ
- Brother-Captain
150pts.

TROOPS
- Terminator Squad (5) + Nemesis falchions (for Justicar), daemon hammer & Psycannon
230pt.

- Strike Squad (10) + Nemesis falchions (for Justicar) & 2 psycannons
230pt

FAST ATTACK
- Interceptor Squad (5) + Incinerator
150pt.

HEAVY SUPPORT
-Purgation Squad + 2 psycannons
140pt.
Razorback + twin-linked Lascannons
80pt.

Some comments from me:
*Brother-Captain: fluff-wise I will stick to the Captain, though I certainly will 'promote' him when the army reaches 2000points.
*Falcions for the Justicars: I already glued the models and they look cool so, as I mentioned in the previous post, this time I choose for the 'cool' look instead of the point-perfect look.
*Incinerator: worked magic in my first battle, I want to keep it (to see how it works out)
*Razorback: not really intended as a transport for the purgation squad (I deployed them separatly in my first battle) but I already own the model (with FW inquisition doors and all ;)) so I would like to continue using it (and it did blow up a Rhino + 3 of the transported sternguards and a hovering Stormtalon :D)

So please, don't think I don't listen to your expert comments and suggestions but I still want to put something of myself in this army and play with models/weapons I find 'cool' :)


You may also have noticed that the above army is only worth 980points... so I have 20 points to spare.
I have several options: (idea is to outfit my captain so he can survive a challenge)
-master-crafted weapon for my captain (5pts)
-digital weapons for my captain (5pts)
-meltabombs for my captain (5pts)
-deamon hammer for my captain (5pts)
-psychostroke grenades for my captain (15pts)

What do you guys think I should take ?


Thanks for your continued advice

[Bean]

I understand. When I respond to these things, I don't really know what you think is cool, so I'm just telling you what I think will make it more likely to win. I totally get taking suboptimal stuff for aesthetic reasons--I'll settle for convincing you that it's a tradeoff.

For your last 20 points:

I'm not sure if the brother captain can take psych and rad grenades, but if he can I'd do one of those and mastercraft his whatever (probably sword, I think).

Psybolts on the full strike squad isn't a terrible buy.

If your concern about the grand master is that he's a little too high and mighty for a mere 1000 points, consider trying a Libby with divination for 150 points instead--you can use the same model for him that you use for your brother captain, too, so you can switch back and forth and try both out. I think you'll find the div powers worth the drop in combat output (re-rolls for the whole squad more than make up for that.).

Course,, rad and psych grenades are really good, too.

[Eberk]

I understand. When I respond to these things, I don't really know what you think is cool, so I'm just telling you what I think will make it more likely to win. I totally get taking suboptimal stuff for aesthetic reasons--I'll settle for convincing you that it's a tradeoff..
No worries, you made me think twice (thrice ?) about several things. Which will all help me to create a better list I am still happy with (which is the major point for me).
But I found it fair to let you guys know I didn't just ignore all your advise :)


I'm not sure if the brother captain can take psych and rad grenades, but if he can I'd do one of those and mastercraft his whatever (probably sword, I think).
Do you mean Psyk-out or Psychotroke grenades ? The first they have standard, the second will cost points... the same as Rad grenades which, indeed, a Brother-Captain can take
(I don't seem to find it in the rulebook but I think that the unit accompanying the IC with the grenades also profit from its effects)

[Bean]

Do you mean Psyk-out or Psychotroke grenades ? The first they have standard, the second will cost points... the same as Rad grenades which, indeed, a Brother-Captain can take
(I don't seem to find it in the rulebook but I think that the unit accompanying the IC with the grenades also profit from its effects)

Yes. I suppose I should have been more specific, though given that all gray knights come with psych-out grenades standard, I kinda figured you'd guess I wasn't talking about those. =P

Psychotroke grenades. I knew that the GM could take both (both psychotroke and rad), but I wasn't sure about the Brother Captain.

Both psychotroke and rad grenades impart a penalty on squads that assault the unit that the IC carrying them is in--and they impart their penalties regardless of whether the rest of the unit has them, yes. Neither imparts a benefit directly to the unit to which the IC is attached, though.

Both are, however, very powerful, and definitely worth considering.

[Eberk]

OK... it is decided then :D

Grey Knights (1000pts.)

HQ
- Brother-Captain + Nemesis sword, meltabombs & rad or psychotroke grenades
170pts.

TROOPS
- Terminator Squad (5) + Nemesis falchions (for Justicar), 1 daemon hammer & Psycannon
230pt.

- Strike Squad (10) + Nemesis falchions (for Justicar) & 2 psycannons
230pt

FAST ATTACK
- Interceptor Squad (5) + Incinerator
150pt.

HEAVY SUPPORT
- Purgation Squad (5) + 2 psycannons
140pt.
Razorback + twin-linked Lascannons
80pt.


For the BC I will try out both grenades until I have found my favorite sort and now my army consists of 26 models instead of 21.

My next purchases are planned :-) (hoping that the next couple of months don't see a lot of new goodies released :D)

[Bean]

OK... it is decided then :D

Grey Knights (1000pts.)

HQ
- Brother-Captain + Nemesis sword, meltabombs & rad or psychotroke grenades
170pts.

TROOPS
- Terminator Squad (5) + Nemesis falchions (for Justicar), 1 daemon hammer & Psycannon
230pt.

- Strike Squad (10) + Nemesis falchions (for Justicar) & 2 psycannons
230pt

FAST ATTACK
- Interceptor Squad (5) + Incinerator
150pt.

HEAVY SUPPORT
- Purgation Squad (5) + 2 psycannons
140pt.
Razorback + twin-linked Lascannons
80pt.


For the BC I will try out both grenades until I have found my favorite sort and now my army consists of 26 models instead of 21.

My next purchases are planned :-) (hoping that the next couple of months don't see a lot of new goodies released :D)

Seems like a good set of compromises--and I think you'll find those extra five guys to be valuable.

[Eberk]

and I think you'll find those extra five guys to be valuable.
no doubt about that. In my first GK game my army looked pretty small in comparison with the SM/Eldar force opposing me :). This evens the odd a bit :D

Thanks for everybodies feedback