6th Edition Starter box details!

[Deadlift]

I love the chaos models they look fantastic, the DA character models too look very nice, everything else DA is very underwhelming for me.

oh and do you remember all those posters that said GW would never include 2 armies that both had elements of power armour in a starter set ? Heres two fingers up at them, they know who they are :p

[DrLove42]

Hellbrute is a vehicle. The mark of Nurgle lets it regenerate hull points on a 5+

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

That's wrong.

[MarneusCalgar]

Chaos miniatures seem to be done for no concrete Chaos God... aren´t they?

Because I´ve read somewhere they can be used for Khorne

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Add buboes to them and they could easily be Nurgle.

[Learn2Eel]

The Hellbrute is covered in eyes as an example. If you painted them in a scheme then I'm sure you could make them represent any god pretty easily.

[DrLove42]

Well the hell brute can take the 4 different marks.

I think making them generic is a good move, as people all play different chaos factions, same way as people play different chapters

[miteyheroes]

oh and do you remember all those posters that said GW would never include 2 armies that both had elements of power armour in a starter set ? Heres two fingers up at them, they know who they are :p

What about the posters who said that GW would never make the marines in the starter set non-Codex chapter specific? Lol.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

And so it begins...

[spaceman91]

i really now have no reason to finish my chaos. DAMN YOU GW

[energongoodie]

I like the chosen and the Librarian..... other than that...I am underwhelmed.
I can't put my finger on what is missing for me. I'm hoping they'll grow on me.

[eldargal]

Well technically the Chaos force is mostly non-power armoured. Only 7 of the Chaos chappies are in power armour out of 28 models.

oh and do you remember all those posters that said GW would never include 2 armies that both had elements of power armour in a starter set ? Heres two fingers up at them, they know who they are :p

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Well technically the Chaos force is mostly non-power armoured. Only 7 of the Chaos chappies are in power armour out of 28 models.

Which is really accurate to be fair, Chaos Space Marines are kind of dying out.

[Learn2Eel]

Anyone notice how cheap this guy is given his rumored rules?

On Naftka's blog, it's been updated to say that for 120 points you get a power fist with combi-bolter (!), more than likely 3 attacks base (!), the Rampage USR (!).
If true, your getting a bargain - a close combat monster (potentially seven attacks on the charge without a mark), a free combi weapon all for the same armoured platform - 12/12/10.
Crazy.
It will be interesting to see how much the weapon upgrades cost though.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

That's.... that's just wrong!
Especially if he's Nurgle and regenerating HP!

BLEH!

[eldargal]

Ayup. I still can't see GW putting two power armoured armies in a starter set, but this is no different to have a MEQ core in any other army, even if the statlines won't be quite the same.

Which is really accurate to be fair, Chaos Space Marines are kind of dying out.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

AYUP. Since when are we speaking in Notts tongue? :p

How can you not see it? It's like right there, pictures and everything. :p

[Learn2Eel]

That's.... that's just wrong!
Especially if he's Nurgle and regenerating HP!

BLEH!

Yeah, 15 more points than a standard Loyalist Dreadnought, and we get a free combi-weapon, more attacks base and the potential for D3 more in most cases. We also get to be a rifleman whilst keeping our close combat weapon, and can take awesome marks.
A steal!

[eldargal]

When I get bored I start saying things like 'yup' and 'done gone and ____' and whatnot.

25% of an army being power armoured does not constitute a power armoured starter force.:p

AYUP. Since when are we speaking in Notts tongue? :p

How can you not see it? It's like right there, pictures and everything. :p

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

That's not right man, that's not right!


@eldargal - You're a power armoured force. Which sounds a lot kinkier now that I have said it.

[fuzzbuket]

apart from my sadness at the cultists re-using sculpts (20 minis, and 10 unique sculpts :( ) those are FANTASTIC!

chaos no longer looks like 'marines with spikes' but '10,000 year old marines that are possesed and could munch legions of ultras for breakfast' the dread is AMAZING and the cultists look just like they are out of some blanche painting!

oh my now my IF army is going to be a CSM army. dammnit. I need to get a job for more minis :P.

[Learn2Eel]

Aah it'll be interesting to see the other models' rules....hopefully the WD gives us a good taste of the new Chaos!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I want to see that Chaos Lord's stats and rules

[Learn2Eel]

That's something I am very curious about. You'd think with Phil Kelly at the helm that they will really be embracing the ability to make your own crazy, killy Chaos Lord. Fluff-wise, they are far more experienced and powerful than Loyalist commanders.
It wouldn't surprise me if their statline is the same as a Chapter Master, but they get nifty special rules to compensate at a cheaper price. Of course, marks and Chaos' unique wargear options will probably be the telling point.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I'm also surprised at the lack of a Sorceror. :(

[Deadlift]

Ayup. I still can't see GW putting two power armoured armies in a starter set, but this is no different to have a MEQ core in any other army, even if the statlines won't be quite the same.

They just have. :p

and your argument about the cultists being 2 thirds model wise of the chaos army is invalid, because points wise I am guessing they will be about 25 % max of the points of the chaos points. This is power armour vs power armour either way you look at it.

Dark Angels vs Chaos Space Marines.

Even Tzeentch cant switch-a-ro that fact.

[eldargal]

Nope. It's 25% of the total headcount, points don't matter. If it were a Necron army with 25% 3+ saves we wouldn't be having this discussion but the effect would be exactly the same.

Or to put it another way, if you had an IG army with 25% Space Marines allies you wouldn't go calling the Guard power armoured would you? No matter which way you look at it is not two power armoured forces, it is one power armoured force and another force with a power armoured element.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Even Tzeentch cant switch-a-ro that fact.

Yes I can. :p

It's Dark Angels vs Word Bearers. :D

[Deadlift]

Nope. It's 25% of the total headcount, points don't matter. If it were a Necron army with 25% 3+ saves we wouldn't be having this discussion but the effect would be exactly the same.

Or to put it another way, if you had an IG army with 25% Space Marines allies you wouldn't go calling the Guard power armoured would you? No matter which way you look at it is not two power armoured forces, it is one power armoured force and another force with a power armoured element.

All the models are or will be in the Chaos Space Marine codex, I think it's stretching things to say its not a power armoured dex. ;)

[Deadlift]

apart from my sadness at the cultists re-using sculpts (20 minis, and 10 unique sculpts :( ) those are FANTASTIC!

chaos no longer looks like 'marines with spikes' but '10,000 year old marines that are possesed and could munch legions of ultras for breakfast' the dread is AMAZING and the cultists look just like they are out of some blanche painting!

oh my now my IF army is going to be a CSM army. dammnit. I need to get a job for more minis :P.

Nail on head ^ this quote.

Not sure about the Blanche painting though, but then I don't like his work anyway :)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Nope. It's 25% of the total headcount, points don't matter. If it were a Necron army with 25% 3+ saves we wouldn't be having this discussion but the effect would be exactly the same.

Or to put it another way, if you had an IG army with 25% Space Marines allies you wouldn't go calling the Guard power armoured would you? No matter which way you look at it is not two power armoured forces, it is one power armoured force and another force with a power armoured element.

Okay, so why are Space Marine armies with 5 Tanks and 30 Marines called "Mechanised Armies" then, surely they would be Power Armoured Armies (with Tanks)? :p

ZING!

[Deadlift]

And when those cultists die in the 1st 1 or 2 turns, what are we left with. FREAKING POWER ARMOUR.

Don't get me wrong, I am not disappointed. I love the stuff.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

My flatmate spaffed when he saw the cultists, he's gay for Necromunda, absolutely in love with it.

[eldargal]

But the starter set isn't the codex. It has it's own rules and the codex isn't even out yet. It is not a power armoured force, that they are in a codex that is predominately power armoured is irrelevent. 25% of an army having power armour doesn't make it a power armoured army.

All the models are or will be in the Chaos Space Marine codex, I think it's stretching things to say its not a power armoured dex. ;)

TDA, mech just means mechanised, it doesn't mean armoured division.:p

As I said, if this was a Necron force with the same ratio we would not be even debating whether it was power armoured but the ratio of saves would be identical.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I'm just trolling. :D

[Deadlift]

But the starter set isn't the codex. It has it's own rules and the codex isn't even out yet. It is not a power armoured force, that they are in a codex that is predominately power armoured is irrelevent. 25% of an army having power armour doesn't make it a power armoured army.

Your 25% is from model count, that example just wouldn't hold up in say a Ogre Kingdoms list where you could have just 25% of your models actually Ogres, the rest could be knoblers and the like. It's still ogre kingdoms.

May not be the best example.

Either way. I am looking at it from a points perspective and this is to me Chaos Space Marines with cannon fodder / tarpit. Those cultists may look pretty but the real game is going to be begin when those buggers get killed.

[Mr Mystery]

Just....just....jaw dropping.

Again the design studio excel themselves. These bad boys are very much on a par with the Space Hulk effort, if not slightly better. I wasn't fussed for it before, but just seeing those models.....sorely tempted now.

The Chosen and Deathwing are my runaway favourites. I'm loving the studded look on the Deathwing, very cool and not seen before, and best of all...Assault Cannon!!! As for the Chosen? Distinctly Rogue Trader vibe coming from these. Beautiful stuff! I mean even the bikers, traditionally pretty dull models have a good sense of dynamic movement.

Stunning, simply stunning. Now, I'm off to goz at the photos again, and thank the Gods that I'm very much able to afford this this month!!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

To lighten the mood!

http://www.maniacworld.com/happy-owl.jpg

[eldargal]

So what you're saying is it is Codex: Dark Angels vs Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

On that we agree. Still doesn't make it power armour vs power armour.:p Power armour isn't a codex, it is a wargear choice. 25% of an army having something doesn't really equate to the whole army being defined by it.

I actually like the fact it implies that one can have a Chaos Marine army that is NOT power armoured, yay for variety.




Your 25% is from model count, that example just wouldn't hold up in say a Ogre Kingdoms list where you could have just 25% of your models actually Ogres, the rest could be knoblers and the like. It's still ogre kingdoms.

May not be the best example.

Either way. I am looking at it from a points perspective and this is to me Chaos Space Marines with cannon fodder / tarpit. Those cultists may look pretty but the real game is going to be begin when those buggers get killed.

[RGilbert26]

I wonder if they will remake the CSM box or just release plastic chosen that look similar to those in the starter box.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Power armour isn't a codex, it is a wargear choice.

Is isn't a wargear choice, it is a lifestyle choice. :p

[Deadlift]

So what you're saying is it is Codex: Dark Angels vs Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

On that we agree. Still doesn't make it power armour vs power armour.:p Power armour isn't a codex, it is a wargear choice. 25% of an army having something doesn't really equate to the whole army being defined by it.

I actually like the fact it implies that one can have a Chaos Marine army that is NOT power armoured, yay for variety.

Glad we can agree on something then :D

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Isn't anyone going to "awwwwwwwwwwwwh!" at Happy Owl?

[Deadlift]

To lighten the mood!

http://www.maniacworld.com/happy-owl.jpg

Don't worry myself and Eldargal are able debate and still remain polite to each other. Whilst I generally enjoy her posts I don't always agree with her points, as I am certain she doesn't agree with mine always either. Doesn't stop us being friends on here.

Oh and Necrons are space Egyptians :p

Big hugs xxx

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

But......... Owl

[JxKxR]

But......... Owl

Awwww, you're more adorable than any owl could ever be. :p

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Awwww, you're more adorable than any owl could ever be.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaayyyyyyyyy! Happy face. :3

[eldargal]

I wanted a pet owl but mummy said it was bad enough I had a Slytherin scarf and wand without getting an owl as well. :(

Oh, and something about the starter set...

[Mr Mystery]

But......... Owl

Owls are rubbish. Guppies are better.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Oh, and something about the starter set...

What?

[Deadlift]

But......... Owl

Sorry matey, if it's made of meat, it's protein and that = lunch. Yes I would eat an owl :o

[eldargal]

Not as nice as you would think.

Or so I've heard.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Why?

[eldargal]

Stringy, bad taste.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

-_-

TOUT LE MONDE.

What is this?!
Where am I?!

[JxKxR]

Hey so when that Chaplain starts popping up on ebay how much do you think he will be? I'm worried I might miss out and need to know how much more I need to save up.

[Deadlift]

Stringy, bad taste.

I generally don't masticate long enough for taste. I blenderise most of my grub. Owl in a blender lol.

Slytherine ? I always took you for a hufflepuff girl.

[Deadlift]

Hey so when that Chaplain starts popping up on ebay how much do you think he will be? I'm worried I might miss out and need to know how much more I need to save up.

£10 to £15

The Libby from space hulk goes for £20 plus as an example

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Ravenclaw here. :p

[Mr Mystery]

So we now have the herald of 40k Plastic Characters! And may I say, not before time!

Here's hoping for a plastic Cryptek variant!

[eldargal]

Far too b*tchy and my accent is RP, pure Slytherin.:p

I generally don't masticate long enough for taste. I blenderise most of my grub. Owl in a blender lol.

Slytherine ? I always took you for a hufflepuff girl.

I'd say ten to fifteen also, if they make as many LE Starter Sets as the ydid Space Hulk. More if less, less if more.;)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

You b*tch. :p

[eldargal]

If I were a b*tch I'd be buying a Limited Edition Dark Vengeance despite not really being into Marines and depriving someone who is far more into them of a LE Chaplain.

Oh wait.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

S'alright, I'll be getting one, so I don't mind. :D

But to be fair, Chaplains aren't THAT great.

[Kawauso]

But to be fair, Chaplains aren't THAT great.

On-foot and in power armour, they're really not.

You might be better off these days with a Techmarine - at least when they repair destroyed weapons now they can fire in the same turn, and they can restore hull points!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I do like Techmarines!

[Kawauso]

As do I. But I appreciate that they aren't the best of models (gameplay-wise). :)

Still, I do love taking a MotF with my SM army to bolster a ruin, bring loads of dreads and keep them patched up. And he makes an inexpensive HQ.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Though a Dark Angels one would be cool.

[Kawauso]

Definitely.

Though that Interrogator-Chaplain looks pretty sweet.

The thing that has me leery of this box set is the amount of DA iconography and mutated gubbins on the CSM stuff. Hard to tell what's painted and what's easily removable.

[YourSwordisMine]

want... so very much want...

Not only will this set add to my new Dark Angels force...


But the start of my Word Bearers army as well...

[The Sovereign]

Man, the Hellbrute and Chosen are really magnificent!

I'm very disappointed by the cultists, though. GW really phoned those in. Very sad, I was hoping to start a cultist army. Guess I'll be sticking with my Dark Eldar.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Man, the Hellbrute and Chosen are really magnificent!

I'm very disappointed by the cultists, though. GW really phoned those in. Very sad, I was hoping to start a cultist army. Guess I'll be sticking with my Dark Eldar.

Yeah, my opinion on the cultists has drifted back and forth over the past day, I wasnt sure if I likde them or not - I think they are great for something like Necromunda, but the dawn of war cultist style http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-naJPKML84tc/UCrI_ewV6xI/AAAAAAAAJGE/axdunC3_22Q/s1600/chaoscultist.bmp is more to my taste and what I would of prefered personally.

Not going to stop me getting a load of those chosen, hellbrutes and the lord. Best chao models iv ever seen.

[Denzark]

I like the models. IMHO the best starter line up yet.

[The Sovereign]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-naJPKML84tc/UCrI_ewV6xI/AAAAAAAAJGE/axdunC3_22Q/s1600/chaoscultist.bmp

Yeah, I would've much preferred cultists more to that design. Would've been nice to have a couple of females in there as well.

[Deadlift]

If I were a b*tch I'd be buying a Limited Edition Dark Vengeance despite not really being into Marines and depriving someone who is far more into them of a LE Chaplain.

Oh wait.

It's shopping, all the same. We all know the fairer sex excels at that.

As for the starter, it's a great set of models, not overly jazzed about the DA, but the chaos models are lovely. GW have hit the spot with this one.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Hahaha! Deadlift you legend! :D

[eldargal]

True that, I can shop like nobodies business.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

But can you shuffle? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ6zr6kCPj8)

[Deadlift]

Any mention of scenery in the set ?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

There isn't any scenery.

[eldargal]

Right, so apparently the first run of Dark Vengeance is the limited edition with the chaplain, there won't be two types of box onsale at once? They said so on Warseer.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Ah! So the first batch is included with Chaplain, then every run afterwards doesn't include him?
Cool.

[eldargal]

Apparently. Be nice if we knew the size of the initial run. 5000? 10000? 40000? Meh, does want regardless.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Why? You're not a big fan of IMPERIUM.
Just to deny other people the Chaplain? :p

[eldargal]

Want a mini-BRB. Want plastic whippy sticks to sow terror amongst the menfolk. Also I don't mind Dark Angels, though I wouldn't want one to marry my daughter. Not that that is likely...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

*Fry face*

[Deadlift]

Want a mini-BRB. Want plastic whippy sticks to sow terror amongst the menfolk. Also I don't mind Dark Angels, though I wouldn't want one to marry my daughter. Not that that is likely...

Sow terror ?,
Could induce a pants party in some folks.:o

[CouchViking]

Want a mini-BRB. Want plastic whippy sticks to sow terror amongst the menfolk. Also I don't mind Dark Angels, though I wouldn't want one to marry my daughter. Not that that is likely...

Being that it's the dark angels we are talking about here, your daughters virtue is safe. Its your son's that should worry you. :p

[Wildcard]

The more the rumours (and pics) come from starter box, the more sad i feel for the one who gets the dark angels, if two friends are buying the box..

I mean, it looks like the dark angel models are sculpted on a different century (save for the HQ options - those are stunning) when compared to the chaos chosen, lord and hellbrute..

Anyone else feel the same way? :(

[DF3CT]

I like the DA Chaplain, but when did they start modeling smoke onto personality models. Seems out of place.

[DrBored]

I like the DA Chaplain, but when did they start modeling smoke onto personality models. Seems out of place.

Since
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1250079_99060108056_INQWHSoBCanonmain_445x319.jpg

... Yep.

[DrLove42]

I did notice, that if you're only interested in specific models in the box set some bits websites have them up for order;

http://www.bitsandkits.co.uk/dark-vengance-pre-order-section-c-808.html

[Kawauso]

Since
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1250079_99060108056_INQWHSoBCanonmain_445x319.jpg

... Yep.

The heavy flamer Legion of the Damned model had that going on, too.

And Vulkan He'stan.

And the DE Mandrakes.

So like you said, it's been going on for a while. :)

[DrLove42]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1tJmi9zNFk&feature=player_embedded

New trailer is up. Compared to the previous DA one, this has a very heavy Chaos feel to it

[Defenestratus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1tJmi9zNFk&feature=player_embedded

New trailer is up. Compared to the previous DA one, this has a very heavy Chaos feel to it

Ugh

GW needs to fire the marketing company they use for these utterly worthless youtube promos.

[Bigred]

DARK VENGEANCE PRICES

60010199006 40-15-60 Warhammer 40,000: Dark Vengeance (English) - Special Edition 49 Fig Box, Rulepack, Dice, Measures, Templates 1-Sep-12 $107.00 USD $128.00 CAD

60010199007 40-01-60 Warhammer 40,000: Dark Vengeance (English) 48 Fig Box, Rulepack, Dice, Measures, Templates 8-Sep-12 $99.00 USD $119.00 CAD

[Defenestratus]

BTW,

No Chaos releases in Sept. :P

[Cpt Codpiece]

DARK VENGEANCE PRICES

60010199006 40-15-60 Warhammer 40,000: Dark Vengeance (English) - Special Edition 49 Fig Box, Rulepack, Dice, Measures, Templates 1-Sep-12 $107.00 USD $128.00 CAD

60010199007 40-01-60 Warhammer 40,000: Dark Vengeance (English) 48 Fig Box, Rulepack, Dice, Measures, Templates 8-Sep-12 $99.00 USD $119.00 CAD

so thats about £70 in real money for the special ed then?

[Scorch]

The more the rumours (and pics) come from starter box, the more sad i feel for the one who gets the dark angels, if two friends are buying the box..

I mean, it looks like the dark angel models are sculpted on a different century (save for the HQ options - those are stunning) when compared to the chaos chosen, lord and hellbrute..

Anyone else feel the same way? :(

Unfortunately, I do agree... I really thought they might do something genuinely interesting with a tactical squad this time. Appears not.
The terminators are an improvement though, remind me a little of Space Hulk.
And I do like the bikers :)

[Kawauso]

Unfortunately, I do agree... I really thought they might do something genuinely interesting with a tactical squad this time. Appears not.


How much can really be done with bog-standard tactical marines, though, without making them look as fancy as veterans?

[the jeske]

The more the rumours (and pics) come from starter box, the more sad i feel for the one who gets the dark angels, if two friends are buying the box..
why ? the DA are both clearly a superior force out of the box and they actualy give models a DA player could use . who is going to use the chaos models ? I mean yes they look nice , but non of them are actualy worth taking . your not going to take the hellbrute over the demon engine . the chosen are both rather weak[sm honor guard has a nice +2sv , they dont] and have a set up of weapons that doesnt make sense [LC ??? mauls ???] . the cultists are good , if someone plans to build a chaos IG without using FW , but they are not good when one has the option to take csm with better save and plasma for same points . a full upgraded 20 cultistsunit cost 15 pts less then a 10 csm with 2 plasma and a power weapon asp champion.
I would rather worry what happens to the chaos dude when he starts to ponder actual list building.

[Malachi]

why ? the DA are both clearly a superior force out of the box and they actualy give models a DA player could use . who is going to use the chaos models ? I mean yes they look nice , but non of them are actualy worth taking . your not going to take the hellbrute over the demon engine . the chosen are both rather weak[sm honor guard has a nice +2sv , they dont] and have a set up of weapons that doesnt make sense [LC ??? mauls ???] . the cultists are good , if someone plans to build a chaos IG without using FW , but they are not good when one has the option to take csm with better save and plasma for same points . a full upgraded 20 cultistsunit cost 15 pts less then a 10 csm with 2 plasma and a power weapon asp champion.
I would rather worry what happens to the chaos dude when he starts to ponder actual list building.

Wow. That's a lot of certainty on what is a "good choice" (including point values!) when we don't... you know... actually have an updated Codex for them!

[Deadlift]

How much can really be done with bog-standard tactical marines, though, without making them look as fancy as veterans?

I think they could have at least made the actual stance a bit more dynamic, I agree tacticals are bland by nature but they could have added some "motion" to the models. More robes and iconography could have been cool too, but like you say might detract from some of the more elite units from the next DA codex. I would have loved to have seen robed Deathwing.

[Deadlift]

why ? the DA are both clearly a superior force out of the box and they actualy give models a DA player could use . who is going to use the chaos models ? I mean yes they look nice , but non of them are actualy worth taking . your not going to take the hellbrute over the demon engine . the chosen are both rather weak[sm honor guard has a nice +2sv , they dont] and have a set up of weapons that doesnt make sense [LC ??? mauls ???] . the cultists are good , if someone plans to build a chaos IG without using FW , but they are not good when one has the option to take csm with better save and plasma for same points . a full upgraded 20 cultistsunit cost 15 pts less then a 10 csm with 2 plasma and a power weapon asp champion.
I would rather worry what happens to the chaos dude when he starts to ponder actual list building.

Depends, aesthetically the chaos to most seem to have had the more attention design wise, not everyone buys models because what they do on the table, but how cool they look and are to paint.

DA may have gotten the better stat-lines, but the chaos models are far nicer looking IMO.

[Kawauso]

I think they could have at least made the actual stance a bit more dynamic, I agree tacticals are bland by nature but they could have added some "motion" to the models. More robes and iconography could have been cool too, but like you say might detract from some of the more elite units from the next DA codex. I would have loved to have seen robed Deathwing.

This is true.

If one day SM get a re-cut tactical sprue, I reeeally hope there is a set of arms that allows for this pose:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2380586a_99810101066_SMVeteransMkIICFC05_873x627. jpg

[Wildcard]

Depends, aesthetically the chaos to most seem to have had the more attention design wise, not everyone buys models because what they do on the table, but how cool they look and are to paint.

DA may have gotten the better stat-lines, but the chaos models are far nicer looking IMO.

My "issue" here is that the difference in level of the visual output of those two forces are really showing. It seems like the chaos chosen were sculpted by master, and the dark angels by a rookie (save for the DA captain and libby)

As said, tacts and termies are blatant by nature, but there could have still been some greater variety and a lot more detail to those models..

It could easily be by the looks of it, that the DA tacts and termies were sculped at the beginning of 2000, while the chaos dudes got the latest production & sculpting tools on the market 2011

(I know years are totally off, but just to make the point in huge difference of skill used to craft those)

Librarian and Captain are more home with the chaos forces than on the DA bunch (again skill level wise) it even seems like they just don't belong to the same force :(


It would be ok if both sides would be somewhat equally good or crappy.. but my main point is the difference in quality / detail on the models..

[da_WaaaghMaster]

Am I the only one who's not a big fan of the Chaplain? Looks more like a Black Templar than a Dark Angel IMO.

[Cpt Codpiece]

really though people pointing out the blandness of the tacts in the DA side..... normal DA are not really the same army as the DW, they are but they are not.
they are as mistrusted as every other marine chapter, maybe even more than due to proximity of the truth and the damning revelations it could bring if found too early.

remember thats why the DA have interrogators and mind worming librarians, not only to leech/wash the truth from the fallen, but also to spy on and condition their own men.

so the separation between the ineer circle and the rest of the chapter is and should be obvious

[DrLove42]

I ersonally think the Generic Tac Marines are a good thing. Sure a little more movement would have been nice, but by being non-legion specific they can be used by anyon

[Learn2Eel]

why ? the DA are both clearly a superior force out of the box and they actualy give models a DA player could use . who is going to use the chaos models ? I mean yes they look nice , but non of them are actualy worth taking . your not going to take the hellbrute over the demon engine . the chosen are both rather weak[sm honor guard has a nice +2sv , they dont] and have a set up of weapons that doesnt make sense [LC ??? mauls ???] . the cultists are good , if someone plans to build a chaos IG without using FW , but they are not good when one has the option to take csm with better save and plasma for same points . a full upgraded 20 cultistsunit cost 15 pts less then a 10 csm with 2 plasma and a power weapon asp champion.
I would rather worry what happens to the chaos dude when he starts to ponder actual list building.

I didn't realize the codex had been released already.....oh wait.

[Wildcard]

I ersonally think the Generic Tac Marines are a good thing. Sure a little more movement would have been nice, but by being non-legion specific they can be used by anyon

I am talking about the models quality wise, as well as the obvious skill / determination of the sculptor, not the marketing point of the box.

If I buy a Dark Angels force, i do expect to get Dark Angels and not generic, not blood angels nor grey knights - but Dark Angels.

And the quoted argument could be said the other way around. What about:
- Cultists used as Imperial Guardsmen
- Chaos Chosen used as Sisters
- HellBrute used as Inquisitor Karamazov
- etc. etc.

Of course you can use imagination, and use temporary models to prox something that you are missing for the occasion. But your argument suggest the 'permanent' use of models.

Edit:
The 'normal DA tactical' should be looking something like this
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1240739_99060101195_Col40kSMDAMarinesMain_445x319 .jpg

Some sculpted iconography on the shoulder, and heavy on the robes.

/Edit

There is a reason why we have 16 entries of different armies on the Games Workshops 40k catalog. And to strenghten my point. if something, it should be the core force of your army that had the distinct looks of a specific army, where around you could build more 'generic' vehicles or so..

To rest my case: A Space Marine Battle Force run with Nemesis DreadKnight as counts as Grey Knight just kills the immersion..

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Well, I want to start a Dark Angels force, therefore I want Dark Angels. I don't really care if Johnny Whatshisface quits the game because Games Workshop decided that they wanted a themed Starter Box.
Remember, the past couple of boxes have been Ultramarines, who are vanilla.
The Dark Angels are the poster boys now, and with these changes comes certain expectations of design. As they have done in this box.
It would be the same for the Blood Angels, or Space Wolves, etc etc.


My thoughts.

[Wildcard]

Well, I want to start a Dark Angels force, therefore I want Dark Angels. I don't really care if Johnny Whatshisface quits the game because Games Workshop decided that they wanted a themed Starter Box.
Remember, the past couple of boxes have been Ultramarines, who are vanilla.
The Dark Angels are the poster boys now, and with these changes comes certain expectations of design. As they have done in this box.
It would be the same for the Blood Angels, or Space Wolves, etc etc.


My thoughts.


TDA: I love you

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

TDA: I love you

Standard.
Much loves.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

Well, I want to start a Dark Angels force, therefore I want Dark Angels. I don't really care if Johnny Whatshisface quits the game because Games Workshop decided that they wanted a themed Starter Box.
Remember, the past couple of boxes have been Ultramarines, who are vanilla.
The Dark Angels are the poster boys now, and with these changes comes certain expectations of design. As they have done in this box.
It would be the same for the Blood Angels, or Space Wolves, etc etc.


My thoughts.

Agreed.

[DrLove42]

Oh yeah, I do agree that a Dark Angel box would have to be Dark Angel specific. Like a DA Battleforce

But this is a starter set. By keeping the models in there a bit more generic it keeps the doors open for everyone who wants to create a Starter army, be in DA, Loyalist or any of the other marine armies.

Even the Captain and the Terminators will be very easily usable in another marine army, as their DA detailing isn't hard to remove

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

*cough*SPACE HULK*cough*

Why does everything need to be generic? Why?

If we're going down the generic route then why aren't the Chaos Marines more generic?
I don't want Daemon Engines, I want just turned Renegade Marines who don't have much Daemonic iconography and have taken some followers with them.

I'm going to have a spare Librarian from this set, I'll use him in my Storm Wardens, with a bit of work it's fine.
He's got an angel shoulder pad? Oh no, not like my Chief Librarian already has an angel shoulder pad. :p

See my point?

[DrLove42]

*cough*SPACE HULK*cough*



Its a stand alone boxed game, they're compatabile with normal 40k yes, but thats not the goal



If we're going down the generic route then why aren't the Chaos Marines more generic?
I don't want Daemon Engines, I want just turned Renegade Marines who don't have much Daemonic iconography and have taken some followers with them.


Then you use the Loyalist Marines in this box, and you've got your generic chaos chaps.

I understand that you'd prefer some more legion specific, but keeping things a touch more generic it increases the market. It also allows you to mix the more generic tacs with some DA ones to make more diverse squads

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

But the point of the starter boxes is that they are supposed to be stand alone games.
That's why they have names; "Battle for Macragge", "Assault on Black Reach", and "Dark Vengeance"
It's also why they don't tell you to play from your codices, they tell you to play using the rules included in the box.

[Deadlift]

I don't think these sets are ment to be "stand alone" they are an introduction into the game which GW want to use to get players started into the hobby, and they expect you to add to your collection soon after. It's no coincidence that the next 2 releases are likely to be Chaos Space marines and then Dark Angels. This set is designed to encourage you to expand into shiny new things as the relevant codeci are released. Is this GW money grabbing at its finest ? Of course it is. Do I mind ?, no the new releases will be bloody fantastic :)

[Cpt Codpiece]

I am talking about the models quality wise, as well as the obvious skill / determination of the sculptor, not the marketing point of the box.

If I buy a Dark Angels force, i do expect to get Dark Angels and not generic, not blood angels nor grey knights - but Dark Angels.

And the quoted argument could be said the other way around. What about:
- Cultists used as Imperial Guardsmen
- Chaos Chosen used as Sisters
- HellBrute used as Inquisitor Karamazov
- etc. etc.

Of course you can use imagination, and use temporary models to prox something that you are missing for the occasion. But your argument suggest the 'permanent' use of models.

Edit:
The 'normal DA tactical' should be looking something like this
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1240739_99060101195_Col40kSMDAMarinesMain_445x319 .jpg

Some sculpted iconography on the shoulder, and heavy on the robes.

/Edit

There is a reason why we have 16 entries of different armies on the Games Workshops 40k catalog. And to strenghten my point. if something, it should be the core force of your army that had the distinct looks of a specific army, where around you could build more 'generic' vehicles or so..

To rest my case: A Space Marine Battle Force run with Nemesis DreadKnight as counts as Grey Knight just kills the immersion..


you couldnt be more wrong on the dark angels BTW.

like i said in my last post, not all DA have earned the right to wear the robes.
being part of the inner circle grants the right to don the raiment of the order, the secret society within the DA that we all know as the wings, the deathwing and ravenwing.

now if you want an all robe wearing DA force that means a load of vet squads, as like i said only the order gets the robes, and normal marines just are not trusted enough to learn the truth, only the highest chaplains and librarians know most of the truth, only the chapter master and cypher know the rest.... and probably cypher knows the real truth.

[Zahariel]

you couldnt be more wrong on the dark angels BTW.

like i said in my last post, not all DA have earned the right to wear the robes.
being part of the inner circle grants the right to don the raiment of the order, the secret society within the DA that we all know as the wings, the deathwing and ravenwing.

now if you want an all robe wearing DA force that means a load of vet squads, as like i said only the order gets the robes, and normal marines just are not trusted enough to learn the truth, only the highest chaplains and librarians know most of the truth, only the chapter master and cypher know the rest.... and probably cypher knows the real truth.

This. Cpt. Codpiece hit the nail firmly on the head, the visual look of the DA does look a bit off when placed into the context of the Chaos stuff in the box. However it is exactly right for the DA and as much as we would all of wanted robed DW we all know it'll most likely appear in the new shiny DW termies box they'll bring out with the dex. Generic DA tac marines have no place wearing robes.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I could've explained about the robes, but I failed to pass a perception test to notice someone fluff failing. -10!

[Cpt Codpiece]

having looked at the starter DA again, they do actually have sculpted details on both chests (swords and wings) and on shoulders and knees, as well as swords and scrolls on the bolters.

so to say they are generic marines is again very wrong.

i will actually concede that the overall look of both the chappie and the srg is very much in the vein of BT, as sad as that makes me, to have such a glorious (legion) chapter (DA) likened to a buch of heretical crazed numpties (dorns words honestly :))

[JMichael]

Pics from the White Dwarf have appeared are are already available for pre-order on several online retailers.

http://apocalypse40k.blogspot.com/2012/08/6th-edition-start-set-details-prices.html

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm106/Linnear1701/40K/DarkVengence.jpg

[Necron2.0]

I just now got notification from MiniWarGaming that Dark Vengeance was up for preorder (http://store.miniwargaming.com/product/warhammer-40k-dark-vengeance-special-edition.html). Personally I think they're getting ahead of themselves a little bit.

[guitarangry]

Just been looking through the GW website and it now appears that GW have removed AOBR from the site.

[JMichael]

Found a better blog with close up pics of the WD pages.
http://eternalhunt.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/6th-edition-starter-box-first-thoughts/

Please, please when peeps take these photos turn off the flash or otherwise just take better pictures!

LOVING the Chaos Hellbrute!

[miksheridan]

you couldnt be more wrong on the dark angels BTW.

like i said in my last post, not all DA have earned the right to wear the robes.
being part of the inner circle grants the right to don the raiment of the order, the secret society within the DA that we all know as the wings, the deathwing and ravenwing.

if you can quote me an official piece of fluff on that i'd be most greatful, however the only thing the robe indicates is that you're following the traditions of the knightly orders the dark angels take their heritage from, don't see cypher and the fallen all being part of the inner circle now do we? players like to use robes to indicate sarge's and higher ups just cause it means they stand out, there is nothing wrong with having all robed squads

[spaceman91]

as its says on this really nice link (thank u) i dont think the DA are bad just not as much room to play with the style as the chaos side of the box. [QUOTE=
http://eternalhunt.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/6th-edition-starter-box-first-thoughts/

edit the termy needs those wings clipping they look a bit silly.

[Cpt Codpiece]

if you can quote me an official piece of fluff on that i'd be most greatful, however the only thing the robe indicates is that you're following the traditions of the knightly orders the dark angels take their heritage from, don't see cypher and the fallen all being part of the inner circle now do we? players like to use robes to indicate sarge's and higher ups just cause it means they stand out, there is nothing wrong with having all robed squads

how about every single piece of DA fiction written since the "angels of" codex.
its even in the codex and the fact that you only get the robe guys in VET squads (actual box, only vets and command) and the bits to make the srg in the ravenwing box.

how about you provide a single piece of fluff that says otherwise. the HH yeah there will have been more robes, as the legion was not as divided, even the splitting of the legion for recruitment that triggered the lutherites schism would not have made any change to the numbers of the order.

but since its the truth of the schism that marks the 'order' with the robes and also shows membership to the deathwing when a certain level is reached within the order (circles within circles), there would be less and less robed guys in the green dark angels forces.

2406
notice from page 59 of current dex, also notice the wrong squad marking on the shoulder, probably due to a simple cookie cutter program (like the on on B&C)

[Deadlift]

Would have been nice to see the TDA in dressing gowns, maybe in the new release. I think these sculpts though may indicate that's not the case.

A watcher in the dark in the set would have been cool too, as an objective maybe.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Would have been nice to see the TDA in dressing gowns, maybe in the new release. I think these sculpts though may indicate that's not the case.

A watcher in the dark in the set would have been cool too, as an objective maybe.

You want to see me in a gown? Fair play dude, but I don't take requests. :p

[Cpt Codpiece]

yeah i like the deathwing in the box, but they do fall into the same niche as the BA ones from space hulk, they are too exxagerated (looking at assault cannon guy:confused:) TDA are suppoosed to be slower and not as agile as a marine. not "hey look i got a big gun" "watch me wave it like a flag"

but i do think a srg model or a capt model in TDA with the robes would be nice, if i remember right its only belial who has the robes in the artwork :mad:

i was also wishing a watcher would be in the box too, like the SH cup. it would have made a cool marker or even a nice wargear choice...... come on GW next dex give DA sneaky chaos powers via the watchers:cool:

[miksheridan]

No need to get on the offensive mate, i've been playing dark angels since the last codex and try to keep up with fluff, i wanted something official for personal purposes not arguments sake.
what you've supplied there says nothing about the inner circle, just that its basically an indicator of rank, role or position. yes a lot of them will be inner circle, but not all of them :)

[Cpt Codpiece]

No need to get on the offensive mate, i've been playing dark angels since the last codex and try to keep up with fluff, i wanted something official for personal purposes not arguments sake.
what you've supplied there says nothing about the inner circle, just that its basically an indicator of rank, role or position. yes a lot of them will be inner circle, but not all of them :)

not getting defensive :)
if you have been running DA since the last dex, have you not read the fluff in said dex? i pointed out circles within circles (page 11 of dex, funnily enough, the same page as the inner circle and the order) i suggest you read that section again,
"only on his ascention to the 1st company, the deathwing, would a battle brother begin to learn the events that transpired at the very dawn of the imperium. Rising through the intricate and convoluted ranks of the inner circle, he would learn more and more, the secrets one by one unveiled to him as his masters' trust in him increased. only upon ascention to grand master would the truth be revealed, even then it is likley that there remain revelations, known only to the holder of the title, supreme grandmaster the chapter master of the dark angels." page 11 DA dex

so only deathwing have the robes, and even then they dont know the whole story. so no there would not be a lot of them, about 125/130 individuals maybe 200 maximum, out of 1000 marines.
1st comp 100 marines (deathwing)
captains and vet srgs- 10 capt and 5-6 vet srg per company (though these may be conscripted from deathwing)
librarius, high ranks as they perform the interrogations and the screening of troops.so say 5 librarians
chaplains only get the robes when they become interrogators, so about 5 of them
then you have the ravenwing who only know half of the truth, and even then its the srg's

[miksheridan]

no i know the fluff, i've even went out of my way to go back and get old codexs to see what fluff used to be (deathwing fielding in PA for example) but it still doesn't restrict only inner circle to the robes, just means that for example a techmarine would wear robes to identify him as an adept of mars, but then he couldn't be a member of the inner circle as they don't let techmarines in due to their dual loyalties other than perhaps our own version of the master of the forge, i do fully agree that there would be more inner circle members in robes than anyone else, just saying it's not a badge of office of being in the inner circle

[Cpt Codpiece]

so how could a member of say the 3rd company, standard tactical marine "silas stingy" aquire a robe other than being a member of the inner circle?
as the whole inner circle as a requirement of entry, have to be judged by a council of theiir masters, being his direct officer (who caught the seed of truth showing in the marine), the companies chaplain (the next confidant of the officer) and a librarian to screen him. if said marine were to fail this secret test he would either be mind wiped or killed. if he passes the test he is watched some more and then judged again as he uncovers more truth, till ultimaytly he is ready for the deathwing.

so i am not seeing where the 'not a badge of office' is implied in the fluff at all, it is pretty clear only members of the inner circle have the robes.

and yes techmarines do not get robes as they most certainly cant be trusted with a secret like the DA have, given their loyalties to mars,and if i remember right not even the master of the forge is fully clued up, just knows what he needs to to get the job done (stasis fields and torture rooms in the prison and the likes of).

but anyway, my point still stands. from the fluff normal joe tactical/assult/devastator marine will not have robes, only the leaders/vets have them.

[Xenith]

How did you manage to get from this:
"only on his ascention to the 1st company, the deathwing, would a battle brother begin to learn the events that transpired at the very dawn of the imperium. Rising through the intricate and convoluted ranks of the inner circle, he would learn more and more, the secrets one by one unveiled to him as his masters' trust in him increased. only upon ascention to grand master would the truth be revealed, even then it is likley that there remain revelations, known only to the holder of the title, supreme grandmaster the chapter master of the dark angels."

To this:

so only deathwing have the robes
It doesn't seem to mention robes anywhere. In fact, in all the DA armies everywhere, I would say that the deathwing have the lowest % of robed marines. From what you said earlier, what comes in the box is what counts.


how about every single piece of DA fiction written since the "angels of" codex.
its even in the codex and the fact that you only get the robe guys in VET squads

*Psst*http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400016&prodId=prod1140198

That said, the point is moot, in your army, the models that you want to have robes, have robes.

[Cpt Codpiece]

How did you manage to get from this:

To this:

It doesn't seem to mention robes anywhere. In fact, in all the DA armies everywhere, I would say that the deathwing have the lowest % of robed marines. From what you said earlier, what comes in the box is what counts.



*Psst*http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400016&prodId=prod1140198

That said, the point is moot, in your army, the models that you want to have robes, have robes.

erm you must of missed this http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2406

read the text. GW puts it quite simple in the codex. page 59

then see page 11. read the whole page and the box out.

while true your army may field any models you like as long as they are armed correct. however the point was raised that the tacts in the box dont have robes. and i pointed out that the do not have (in DA fluff) the right to wear them as they are not in the inner circle

oh and the point about cypher not being inner circle, pre scism he was one of the most important, if not THE most important member of the order.... the group that became the deathwing/innercircle.
i use deathwing as a post fall of caliban term for inner circle, as the inner circle existed as part of the secret society within 'the order'
for more info on 'the order' read the HH books on the DA

[Brass Scorpion]

GW stores still can't talk about this till it's officially posted up for Advance Order on the GW website, but I'm planning to be at our local Battle Bunker in Bowie, MD when Dark Vengeance gets posted for sale about 7 PM Eastern Time this coming Friday night. I definitely want the limited edition set with the Interrogator Chaplain model as does my son. We may buy multiple sets and want to support our local store so long as that's a GW Direct item anyway. I'm sure the Battle Bunker will have some fun release related events the following Saturday, September 1 too. I'll share that once they've been announced.

Follow GW Bowie here for a list of events, address and store hours info. They are open till 10 PM on Fridays and Saturdays.
https://www.facebook.com/GWBowie

And a good sized chunk of my Dark Angels army is now on display at the Bowie Battle Bunker along with some of my other projects so if you stop by please check them out.

[CouchViking]

Would have been nice to see the TDA in dressing gowns, maybe in the new release. I think these sculpts though may indicate that's not the case.

A watcher in the dark in the set would have been cool too, as an objective maybe.

You hit the nail on the head, GW really had a chance to flesh out the DA as a seperate chapter and really infuse character into their chapter from previous editions and moving into this new one. So that leaves one logical conclusion, Ward is writing the fluff.

[Zahariel]

You hit the nail on the head, GW really had a chance to flesh out the DA as a seperate chapter and really infuse character into their chapter from previous editions and moving into this new one. So that leaves one logical conclusion, Ward is writing the fluff.
Or like I said previously it'll be in the shiny DW box they release with the codex perhaps? ;)
Most of the current DA players will have TDA already so they need to do something to make us buy it and just look at the SW ones. I know people who bought tons of that stuff, I kind of hope ward is writing thte dex. Rules wise it should be good and his fluff is progressively getting more bearable!
Anyways not long to wait till we find out with a rumoured November(?) release. Which is good as my other armies are SoB and Wood Elves, GW needs to gimme something new and shiny it's been too long!

[CouchViking]

Don't get me wrong, Ward's rules are rock solid if not a little OP but then Kelly did put in TWC and runic weapons for the SW. I personally dind some of his fluff a little wanting in his space marine books however I enjoyed the heck out of the necron dex. Your right about waiting till the DA dex acctually drops and the minis with it before I make any assumptions though.

[phreakachu]

Oh my blood god. 8-o

[Deadlift]

I like Wards rule writing, a lot. With 6th edition my Space marines are loving games right now. I don't even mind his fluff.

*ducks head in expectation of the backlash*

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I like Wards rule writing, a lot. With 6th edition my Space marines are loving games right now. I don't even mind his fluff.

*ducks head in expectation of the backlash*

I like his rules AND his fluff. Some may consider me a fan of it.

BRING IT WORLD. COME AT ME BRO. :D

[Kawauso]

I like his rules AND his fluff. Some may consider me a fan of it.

BRING IT WORLD. COME AT ME BRO. :D

Same here.

There's stuff like Draigo that's pretty darn over the top - but those are the exceptions rather than the rules...and 40k is a galaxy that runs on hyperbole anyway.