40K Book Missions unbalanced?

[lattd]

Im posting here as disqus isn't working for me, but in the notes from the first GT post on the home page, Reecius, stated that he thought the missions in the new rulebook, where unbalanced.

He used the example where his nob biker army played relic, he had a significant speed advantage and won, however he continued on saying taking a death star unit in kill points means you will struggle.

Am i the only one that feels that this can only suggest the missions are extremely balanced and you should take an all rounder list rather than taking what was deemed a powerful list last edition?

[Mr Mystery]

Im posting here as disqus isn't working for me, but in the notes from the first GT post on the home page, Reecius, stated that he thought the missions in the new rulebook, where unbalanced.

He used the example where his nob biker army played relic, he had a significant speed advantage and won, however he continued on saying taking a death star unit in kill points means you will struggle.

Am i the only one that feels that this can only suggest the missions are extremely balanced and you should take an all rounder list rather than taking what was deemed a powerful list last edition?

Nah. When you hold the relic, you can only move 6"

[DrLove42]

I think they are balenced. Lets face it a massive Nob Biker group is going to be pretty hard in any of the game types so why would one mission be any different?

They're much less effective in one game type than another. For instance you could play the scouring, and have some really good FA slots, where your opponent has none. And seeing as you only have a 1 in 6 chance of a particular game.

Don't see how its that different to 5th. In DoW a Nob Biker group could be on your board edge in turn 1.

[SotonShades]

I think to some extent it depands on how the TO's organise the missions. If, over the course of the weekend, you play 6 games, you should play all 6 missions, IMO. If you know this will be the case, you plan how you'd try to win each mission against different opponants and set ups as well as taking an army list that can do well in all. Yes, at times there are going to be situations where one army will have an extreme advantage over the opponant in certain missions. Odds are though, that same army will often have a massive disadvantasge in other missions. If not, then it is a very well written list that keeps coming up against poorly written ones. One could even be so callous to say that we all have access to the same Codicies and can potentially write the same army list if we wanted. There for it is the opponants fault for not taking a more suited list. Not saying that is my opinion, as we don't all have unlimited budgets and the ability to build up a new army for each tourny, just that you could take that view!

If TO's roll for the mission each time and could potentially have the same mission coming up multiple times, that would create an unfair advantage. But the same has always been true with the rulebook missions. From what I've seen/read/heard, most of the missions written by TO's to be fairer/more balanced tend to still favour certain army builds, often influenced by the meta of their local group when writing them, even with layered objectives. There have always been ways to play around bad match ups. THAT is where being a good General and out playing your opponant comes in, which is what should make the difference between the guys who win and those who don't.

[DarkLink]

Nah. When you hold the relic, you can only move 6"

Doesn't matter. The biker, grab the objective turn 1, then laugh as the opponent vainly tries to get it back. Driagowing does the same, just by Scouting the Paladins turn 1.

[DrLove42]

And Paladins are even harder. Rules say 6" per phase.

Paladins can run as well and get it even further away faster

[Mr Mystery]

And Paladins are even harder. Rules say 6" per phase.

Paladins can run as well and get it even further away faster

That's still a single unit that's just painted a target on itself. Bit of tactical reserving, and you can deep strike a counter unit. Ways and means.

[DrLove42]

OPH yeah like I said before its just tactics.

In some ways if you withdraw the relic into your zone, it makes it harder for you

Its like playing Capture and control, 1 obj each, except the enemy doesn't have to try and defend their own

[Cursed13]

And Paladins are even harder. Rules say 6" per phase.

Paladins can run as well and get it even further away faster

Except that the Relic rules says that you're not allowed to run while holding the Relic, so that option is out. No running with the relic kids, you might drop and break it!

[DarkLink]

Why would Paladins or other Deathstars run away from the enemy? They're deathstars. Killing everything else is what they do. You don't have to be aggressive once you've got the relic, but you don't have to make any special effort to run, either. And you can still use the rest of your army to screen the deathstar to prevent your opponent from pulling off a coordinated charge, which is one of the few things that can really threaten a deathstar unit.

[Mr Mystery]

Why would Paladins or other Deathstars run away from the enemy? They're deathstars. Killing everything else is what they do. You don't have to be aggressive once you've got the relic, but you don't have to make any special effort to run, either. And you can still use the rest of your army to screen the deathstar to prevent your opponent from pulling off a coordinated charge, which is one of the few things that can really threaten a deathstar unit.

My Doomsday Ark begs to differ. As does the horrendous amount of firepower my Necrons can kick out overall. Me, in Relic I just approach the objective and defend it as I would any other. Seems to be working so far!

[DarkLink]

There's an interesting battle report from Frontline Games on the necron flying circus vs driagowing. The flyers, even the doomsday arks, couldn't kill all the paladins, so driago won despite not killing a single necron the whole game.

Regardless, scoring deathstars have a huge advantage in the Relic.

[Saint_Anger]

Does anyone ever use the IG list of 3 squads of 3 Hydra Flak Tanks against Necron Flying circus list? I think it should be very easy to take out those flyers.

[DarkLink]

Except hydras suck against non-flyers, so who's going to take it.

[Uncle Nutsy]

unbalanced?

not really.

they only feel unbalalanced if the army is built to do just one job.


nob bikers? one trick pony build. same goes for draigowing. same goes for venom spam. same goes for MSU.

but when there's a balanced list, it changes. it feels more level.

[SotonShades]

unbalanced?

not really.

they only feel unbalalanced if the army is built to do just one job.


nob bikers? one trick pony build. same goes for draigowing. same goes for venom spam. same goes for MSU.

but when there's a balanced list, it changes. it feels more level.

Unfortunately, How often do you see balanced lists at tournaments? Which is why the OP was thinking the book missions are inappropriate for tournament use.

Still, as has been said, if they have a massive advantage in one mission but get screwed over in another, you would hope it balances out somewhat.

[lattd]

I didn't say the missions were the problem i was saying the army lists are.

[SotonShades]

This is what happens when I post something from remembering what I thouhgt I read, without rereading it!

Lesson learnt hopefully, and I apologise :)

[lattd]

Well the post is in relation to the thoughts from the first GT so you are in some ways correct, but i think that balanced lists will be the best thing once we get 6th codex starting to come out.

[Uncle Nutsy]

Unfortunately, How often do you see balanced lists at tournaments? Which is why the OP was thinking the book missions are inappropriate for tournament use.

almost never. but that's part of my point. lopsided builds are being used for new missions and the players are looking at the missions saying 'it's unbalanced!' instead of looking at their builds.


Still, as has been said, if they have a massive advantage in one mission but get screwed over in another, you would hope it balances out somewhat.

that's just a symptom of a lopsided build.


think of it this way. If you were to build a car, for time attack races right. You'd have it geared in such a way that it promotes acceleration above all else. Now you take that car to a superspeedway, which is a giant oval (promotes high speed), and according to the logic of the OP, the superspeedway is "unbalanced".

BUT: if you take a car that's been balanced for speed/acceleration and suddenly, that superspeedway doesn't seem like such an uphill battle. And it's a car that can go on a variety of tracks and do reasonably well. Just like if you took a list that consisted of fast attack, troops, some elites and heavy support.. instead of a spam list. You'd do MUCH better and it would feel more "balanced".

so, it's not the mission. it's his list.

[Mr Mystery]

+1 to that brother!


Speaking of which, I have a Cityfight for tomorrow. Time to dig out Cities of Death and bone up on my rules!

[the jeske]

so, it's not the mission. it's his list.
only half the dexs out there[all old+nids] cant build "balanced" lists . One may as well say dont play dex X,Y,Z because they suck then .

at the same time necron more or less ignore the scenarios they are playing . the only problems they face is if they AB are going to be scoring or not.

[Mr Mystery]

only half the dexs out there[all old+nids] cant build "balanced" lists . One may as well say dont play dex X,Y,Z because they suck then .

at the same time necron more or less ignore the scenarios they are playing . the only problems they face is if they AB are going to be scoring or not.

Bunkum. All Codecies present a range of units, and most have a tactical gap somewhere by deliberate design, just as they have an area where they tend to excel. A balanced army has a wide selection of the available units.

And trust me, I'm successful with my Necrons because I focus on the Mission, rather than wiping out my opponent. Go for the secondary objectives first (bit of luck and I can bag two for one by slotting the enemy Warlord first) to give me a solid upper hand (these can be wrested from me), secure a primary objective of my own, and then focus on denial against my opponent. Pow. Playing to the mission and winning.

[Uncle Nutsy]

only half the dexs out there[all old+nids] cant build "balanced" lists . One may as well say dont play dex X,Y,Z because they suck then .

at the same time necron more or less ignore the scenarios they are playing . the only problems they face is if they AB are going to be scoring or not.

yeah right. I bet you any money I could build a balanced list with any dex.