Touching the third rail. Again.

[MaltonNecromancer]

So, I've been searching GW's web site and you know what I can't find?

A miniature painted to have black skin. And I'm not talking "jet black with red devil eyes" Salamander black, or a one-off special character. I'm talking real-world, people-of-African-descent black skin (excepting, of course, Tallarn. Who still look suspiciously melanin-free) on just some random guy in the background. I mean, yeah, Marines have helmets and all, but seriously, all those Apocalypse photos with eleventy billion Imperial Guardsmen grimacing as they prepare to die, and not one black face?

Why on Earth is this the case? We can all paint our models any way we wish - I like to have a mix of different ethnicities in my armies (unless they're Mechanics, in which case everyone just looks poorly and grey) - but GW just likes caucasian males. I've seen many people on coolminiornot paint 40K models with tones that aren't caucasian (and when I say "many", I of course mean "very, very few").

Just because it's part of this trope: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreWhite
does that make it remotely acceptable?

Now, I'm not going to accuse 40K of racism, because well, that's not the issue - plus I'll be told "you can paint your models any way you wich", which I do, and which I've already said I've done. I suppose what I'm just wondering is why, given the fact it's 2012, why GW still doesn't paint up its example models as anything but caucasian (because let's be fair, those example models are well, the examples, so they're really damned important).

And saying "the vast majority of players are white", well... *sucks through teeth* that's just a crass and ignorant thing to say. It doesn't even have the reflective thought to ask "Well, is that cause or effect? Maybe more people from different ethnic groups would play if there were more official models representative of them?

I just wonder how many young players thought "this looks cool", then got turned off because it "didn't look like it was for them" if you know what I mean.

Just to say again, I am enquiring regarding GW's company policy, nothing else.

[wittdooley]

And saying "the vast majority of players are white", well... *sucks through teeth* that's just a crass and ignorant thing to say. It doesn't even have the reflective thought to ask "Well, is that cause or effect? Maybe more people from different ethnic groups would play if there were more official models representative of them?

.

Crass and ignorant? Ya think? I can count on Oscar Pistorius' right foot the number of black dudes in my multiple gaming groups (which amounts to 3 or 4 diff ones). We have one Asian, and he's only half Asian.

I'm trying to think of the number of black dudes at adepticon. I can't recall more than a handful.

However, there are 4 or 5 that play magic locally (including a lovely older black lady) and at least three that do clix. Just isn't very prevalent in miniature gaming from my experience.

It isn't racist to say. It's just the truth.

To more directly address your comment: I don't think it has anything to do with policy. People paint what's familiar. Not only that? But painting good looking black skin is not easy.

[Kawauso]

Honestly, I think it's probably something that just doesn't cross the minds of anyone at GW - probably because (if I were to hazard a guess) there are few-to-no non-white people working at their HQ.

I'm not claiming anything malicious - it's just that this is a nerdy hobby headquartered in Nottingham.

That, and the at-a-glance background in 40k (i.e. the fluff in the codices, etc. rather than the novels which go more in-depth) tends to deal heavily in absolutes. The Tallarn are all -this- way, the Valhallans are all -that- way, etc...the same old tropes that tend to crop up in sci-fi/fantasy a lot of the time (desert planet, etc.) simply because going into the minutia of things is difficult for one reason or another.

To me, it's -kind- of a non-issue...
I mean, it's weird, when you stop and think about it, certainly. And it would probably help both the background and player base to diversify things a bit more, but I don't see it as a directly negative thing.

That being said, I do make an effort where I can to try and include different ethnic skin tones in my armies. I figure it only makes sense that humanity on a galaxy-wide scale would have a lot of different hues, and it's more fun to have something a little different to paint each time. Not to mention the fact that I'm pretty sure racism in 40k on any scale that matters only crops up in terms of humans vs non-humans - we're great as a species at banding together whenever we're faced with an us-vs-them scenario, and aliens/mutants/heretics provide the Imperium with that in spades.



TLDR: I know what you mean. But I don't think it has anything to do with GW policy so much as it's something that just sort of 'happened' in a business/creative environment dominated by white men. It takes more conscious effort to, say, paint a model a different ethnicity from yourself, because people tend to go with what's 'familiar'. I.e. they're hard-wired to default to something like their self (typically speaking).

[Cpt Codpiece]

i think the issue with darker skin, is not any social relection at all. space marines (not just salamanders) are well known to have super effective skin that not only tans fast but also sweats an oily substance that can protect in a vacuum.

i think the real reason we dont see it, is two fold.
1. jst like witt pointed out, browns for skin tones are really complex to paint, and paint right. im not saying its not doable as it is. just getting darker skintones is relly an art.
2. im guessing it will be harder to photograph, my wife is an amature photographer, and i know from her experiences even differing 'white' skintones require some seroius tinkering with light levels and white balance and such like (i am usually the rig monkey, doing all of the adjustments to the lights on her demand LOL)

[Kawauso]

i think the issue with darker skin, is not any social relection at all. space marines (not just salamanders) are well known to have super effective skin that not only tans fast but also sweats an oily substance that can protect in a vacuum.


This is true, but if you actually think about it, the myriad of worlds that Marine recruits are drawn from would -have- to have more diverse gene pools than what we see...humanity conquered the galaxy for crying out loud. It's really highly unlikely (and also disturbing) to think that only white people would spread out so far.

[Learn2Eel]

I'd suggest it is an oversight and nothing more.

[ElectricPaladin]

It's probably true that most wargamers are white. Nerdery is mostly white. Of course, that's no excuse for racism, blatant or overt, intentional or unintentional. I'm not sure that the plethora of white models is racism, exactly. It does show the hobby's biases, though.

I think it's less interesting that most of our peers, white gamers, paint white models. It's more interesting that the companies - the ones whose artistic choices are based, in part, on who they want to attract - insist on producing white models, or giving the models caucasian studio paint jobs. I think that those choices show more subtle complicated attitudes about race than what gamers chose to paint.

For my part, I make a habit of painting my models with a variety of skin tones where it's relevant. I mean, my Tau are all blue, because the Fire Warriors are an ethnicity and probably all have roughly the same color, and my Blood Angels are all pink, because they're all related. My Everblight (Hordes) are also all of a single ethnicity, but I'll definitely include a variety of ethnicities in my Cygnar (Warmachine). But my ALEPH (Infinity faction) come in a variety of colors, and I'll do the same with my Nomads (also an Infinity faction).

[Learn2Eel]

Aren't the Thousand Sons more arabic in appearance? I don't really know, I'm merely going off the names and what other people have said.

[Kawauso]

Aren't the Thousand Sons more arabic in appearance? I don't really know, I'm merely going off the names and what other people have said.

They're generally described in the books as being olive-skinned (which is more Mediterranean than anything...but can be Egyptianish...Egypt is right there, after all, and there are olive/copper skin tones from the area) or pale and tanning up very quickly in the sun.

But in my mind whenever I read about them they look like Egyptians. Before they become space-ghosts, that is.

[Learn2Eel]

Thanks mate. It's pretty clear just by looking at their armour that they draw heavily on Egyptian influences; the khepresh helmets, the masks, the colours, the robes, as well as the other aspects such as the pyramids on Prospero, etc. It's probably what drew me to them in the first place - that and their colours represent my favourite rugby league team :D

[Gotthammer]

White guys photograph better as you can exaggerate the shading to show the detail on the mini (using the evy metal way) in a magazine spread without it looking like the minstrel show.
I remember them showing a staffer's army and he had non-whites and due to the house style of photography they didn't show up well at all.

Maybe GW just needs better photographers....

[Uncle Nutsy]

why does it even matter?

also: I think you're looking into this a little too much, trying to extrapolate something that probably just isn't there. I think you're trying to create an issue when there really isn't any.

[Wolfshade]

Generally, we paint our minis to be like ourselves. Wargaming is a predominatly a white male hobby. There are females, there are those who have different pigmentation but these are the minority.

-or-

In the 41st millenium, most guard regiments come from hive worlds, and such hivers are generations of people living in hives and see very little sun light, so they have evolved to have pastey white skin

[Denzark]

If black and white people are equal then 1BP = 1WP and vice versa. Therefore in any one miniature it is equaly as valid to have them painted black or white (please excuse me if I inadvertantly use a term to describe your ethnicity which you find offensive I don't intend offence) So all white or all black armies are equally valid.

What about proportionality with society? What, are you talking about future fluff, or modern society? If GW represented the ethnic breakdown in UK that would be different to that of US?

I note you don't complain that armies shown don't represent the disabled, or does a smattering of bionic eyes and legs salve your conscience?

I think there is no company policy about this. Should there be? No don't be stupid.

[Wolfshade]

(please excuse me if I inadvertantly use a term to describe your ethnicity which you find offensive I don't intend offence)
I prefer the term pastey

[Denzark]

I prefer the term pastey

Oh, I'm sorry, I sympathise with you when the Prime Minister tried to tax you.

[Wolfshade]

Oh, I'm sorry, I sympathise with you when the Prime Minister tried to tax you.
:D I need to change my place of origin to cornwall...

[eldargal]

This, possibye one of the best posts ever:

Oh, I'm sorry, I sympathise with you when the Prime Minister tried to tax you.

[Wolfshade]

The GW - Greggs secret alliance has been unvieled!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

QUICK! Phone the President!

[Wolfshade]

Greggs doesn't have a president...

[Denzark]

Howsabout this fella as the nearest alternative?

http://corporate.greggs.co.uk/derek-netherton

[Wolfshade]

http://corporate.greggs.co.uk/assets/Uploads/_resampled/SetWidth280-Derek-Netherton.jpg
I find him unnerving

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

What a guy.

[Lane]

So Malt-o-meal, given up on complaints of Misogyny.

Have you ever tried painting a miniature as a black person? White minis are easy, I can paint them without thinking about it. To paint a black mini well most of us need a reference. A simple lighter and darker shade does not work, depending on the mid tone you may need different undertones for each.

My IG army has a fair number of black troops but it is based on Viet Nam era USMC. Most are just a wash over various flesh tones but I would not consider any of them to be accurate.

[fuzzbuket]

well theres quite a few black guys in the books

zeph (ravenor) springs to mind but i think theres quite a few in the IG books? and a few of the eavy metal faces tutorial are black and i think theres a lot of black things in WHF?

also TDA i thought mods were to keep conversations on track and not derail them into photos of puveyors of chicken curry bakes (the best things in existance)


*mouthgasm-from-thinking about greggs *deep breath* "chip shop chicken curry beaks*

-fuzz

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Ah yes, you are Scottish. The Scottish LOVE Greggs. :p

Note that I didn't post them. Wolfie did. :D
Plus, it's kinda relevant because Black guys love chicken. (and who can blame them?!!)

[Wildeybeast]

So, I've been searching GW's web site and you know what I can't find?

A miniature painted to have black skin. And I'm not talking "jet black with red devil eyes" Salamander black, or a one-off special character. I'm talking real-world, people-of-African-descent black skin (excepting, of course, Tallarn. Who still look suspiciously melanin-free) on just some random guy in the background. I mean, yeah, Marines have helmets and all, but seriously, all those Apocalypse photos with eleventy billion Imperial Guardsmen grimacing as they prepare to die, and not one black face?

Why on Earth is this the case? We can all paint our models any way we wish - I like to have a mix of different ethnicities in my armies (unless they're Mechanics, in which case everyone just looks poorly and grey) - but GW just likes caucasian males. I've seen many people on coolminiornot paint 40K models with tones that aren't caucasian (and when I say "many", I of course mean "very, very few").

Just because it's part of this trope: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreWhite
does that make it remotely acceptable?

Now, I'm not going to accuse 40K of racism, because well, that's not the issue - plus I'll be told "you can paint your models any way you wich", which I do, and which I've already said I've done. I suppose what I'm just wondering is why, given the fact it's 2012, why GW still doesn't paint up its example models as anything but caucasian (because let's be fair, those example models are well, the examples, so they're really damned important).

And saying "the vast majority of players are white", well... *sucks through teeth* that's just a crass and ignorant thing to say. It doesn't even have the reflective thought to ask "Well, is that cause or effect? Maybe more people from different ethnic groups would play if there were more official models representative of them?

I just wonder how many young players thought "this looks cool", then got turned off because it "didn't look like it was for them" if you know what I mean.

Just to say again, I am enquiring regarding GW's company policy, nothing else.

I don't think there is any policy as such and this isn't a new thing.

Why is Jesus white? Simply put, because people paint him to look like themselves, so Europeans made him white. Go to Africa and he's black. Do a quick google image search for Chinese Jesus and see what you get. People take a universal figure/story and put a personal spin on it to make it relevant to their culture.

In a similar way 40k and fantasy are universal stories, deliberately designed blank slates for people to write their own stories with and as such you make the story relevant to you. No one (as far as I can tell) working on the design team, 'eavy metal or WD is anything other than white, so they simply paint their models to tell their story, there is nothing more nefarious to it than that.

As such, I disagree with your statement that having white models puts non-white people off. If the story/message/activity is universal enough, it will appeal to anyone. Why do you think white missionaries were able to convert native populaces around the world? If people from other ethnic groups don't play, it's because they don't have the social opportunity to do so, or because of cultural differences the hobby lacks appeal to them. There should be plenty of professional Asian footballers in this country but there aren't because they a) lack opportunity to do so and/or b) prefer cricket.

[Cpt Codpiece]

Ah yes, you are Scottish. The Scottish LOVE Greggs. :p

Note that I didn't post them. Wolfie did. :D
Plus, it's kinda relevant because Black guys love chicken. (and who can blame them?!!)

well geordies love greggs more.... since we invented it :) (greggs of 'gosforth', a district of newcastle.... where the nobs used to live, b4 darras hall LOL)

but that aside my drummer in a band i was in was from africa (adopted as a child) and he crowned me in his words "an honourary black man", for the ammount of KFC i eat LOL

but back on topic, like i said earlier i dont think policy or PC has anything to do with the lack of (and i can use the term correctly here) coloured people portrayed in the hobby, i have tried painting darker tones, and once you get darker than the medeteranian olive tone you get into a nightmare of colour, its tempting to just assume to go with scorched brown then lighten up that way but it just does not work without many subtle blends.

and again the pink hued skintones are an easy refrence for the photographers, just look at the salamanders that are brown, they really are just brown. you cant see any details at all.

[Wolfshade]

Note that I didn't post them. Wolfie did. :D
Mwahahaha!
I don't see what the problem is with it, if you have countably infinite numbers of people then chances are you are going to have every possibility.
Take the valhallas, from their world descrition I imagine all of them to be like the peoples of the north (no not stafford), but Finno-Urgic

[Rapture]

Plus, it's kinda relevant because Black guys love chicken. (and who can blame them?!!)
Cute.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I do try. :3

Also, I am informed of this because he said so himself. "he" being my friend, who is of african descent. :D

[Wolfshade]

I have family of african descent, they don't like chicken, they eat the red meat.

Though they are affrikaans so that might not count.

[Mr Mystery]

Perceived slight is perceived.

Plus, that far into the future it's quite likely that humanity would have a lot less skintone variation due to increasing 'inter racial' breeding. Sorry. Hate that term. Human is our race. The rest is arbitrary delineation

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

True, my Storm Wardens have black guys in them, I don't see the difficulty in painting different skin colours. :/

[Defenestratus]

I wasn't aware that Games Workshop was breaking the law in not providing politically correct racially diverse models/paint jobs.

Surely a Parlimentary inquisition panel should be assembled and we should definitely punish GW for hate crimes, racism, bigotry, segregation, and discrimination.

[bfmusashi]

My guard are white for two simple reasons. The uniform I picked out does not match darker skin tones (color theory strikes again) and almost every guard head has Caucasoid features. I suppose another reason is I'm a white guy from the southern United States and the idea of having hundreds of black people that do whatever I tell them is off-putting.

[Kawauso]

Perceived slight is perceived.

Plus, that far into the future it's quite likely that humanity would have a lot less skintone variation due to increasing 'inter racial' breeding. Sorry. Hate that term. Human is our race. The rest is arbitrary delineation

This is true - about a more mixed skintone in a broad sense.

Though that would mean that many of the people of the Imperium would look more Brazilian and less pasty Cadian.

[Kyban]

This is true - about a more mixed skintone in a broad sense.

Though that would mean that many of the people of the Imperium would look more Brazilian and less pasty Cadian.

Actually, it seems likely that it would start separating by worlds. It sounds like there isn't a lot of cross-population from planet to planet and they would vary based on their world's overall climate in much the same way as humans originally adapted to different climates on Terra.

[Kawauso]

Actually, it seems likely that it would start separating by worlds. It sounds like there isn't a lot of cross-population from planet to planet and they would vary based on their world's overall climate in much the same way as humans originally adapted to different climates on Terra.

Well, in many of the novels, where they actually have time to go into more nuance, there -are- diverse ethnic groups on various planets.

There are a number of different skin tones present among the Valhallans with Ciaphas Cain, for instance.

And I think there's even a tribe on Fenris, if I'm not mistaken, that are much darker-skinned than the other Nordic-looking tribes.

And let's not forget throughout the Heresy series there are a number of human and astartes characters of various ethnic backgrounds from planets that don't give any impression of being mono-ethnic, like Terra and Prospero. That remembrancer with Loken whose name I can't recall. The portly fellow in A Thousand Sons - the Thousand Sons themselves actually seem to be a somewhat diverse bunch. There are others I can't list off the top of my head.

[Gotthammer]

On the fluff side remember that various planets are isolated from each other genetically and have been for thousands of years, so would 're-divirsify' as it were. In universe examples include purple / yellow eyes, natural blonde hair with dark skin as a standard and so on.

[Kawauso]

On the fluff side remember that various planets are isolated from each other genetically and have been for thousands of years, so would 're-divirsify' as it were. In universe examples include purple / yellow eyes, natural blonde hair with dark skin as a standard and so on.

And don't forget psykers and abhumans.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Ahem!!!

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2520035_99120105042_IGCatachanBattleforceBox_873x 627.jpg

I believe my work is done here.

[ragnarcissist]

^this.

i actually once owned a catachan army (very fun old codex) and i made all my sergeants negroes.

[gendoikari87]

So, I've been searching GW's web site and you know what I can't find?

A miniature painted to have black skin. And I'm not talking "jet black with red devil eyes" Salamander black, or a one-off special character. I'm talking real-world, people-of-African-descent black skin (excepting, of course, Tallarn. Who still look suspiciously melanin-free) on just some random guy in the background. I mean, yeah, Marines have helmets and all, but seriously, all those Apocalypse photos with eleventy billion Imperial Guardsmen grimacing as they prepare to die, and not one black face?

Dude the imperium regularly puts witches to death. You expected them NOT to be racist?

... or for that matter sexist, there's not the first female guardsmen in any of the modeling pictures.

[Kawauso]

Dude the imperium regularly puts witches to death. You expected them NOT to be racist?

... or for that matter sexist, there's not the first female guardsmen in any of the modeling pictures.

The Imperium displays no sign of being racist in the sense of valuing any ethnicity over any other.

They -are- racist in the sense that anything non-human is reviled. That's pretty different. There's a lot of solidarity when it comes to humans/the Imperium being 'us against them'.

And there are also plenty of examples in the fiction of female guardsmen - there just happen to not be any models for them (which I think is a shame). Off the top of my head I can't think of any examples of women in the Imperium being treated any differently from men, either (though feel free to correct me). So I'm not really sure where you would be getting the idea that the Imperium is sexist.

Are women and ethnic minorities under-represented? Sure - particularly when it comes to the models we see. But that's pretty different from the Imperium coming across as racist (in the modern usage of the word) or sexist.

[Gotthammer]

@ Gendo - I can't be bothered pointing out how the Imperium doesn't discriminate on race/gender, so look at this thread where I argued over it already (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?p=123133) (with Malton for bonus points).

[gendoikari87]

The Imperium displays no sign of being racist in the sense of valuing any ethnicity over any other.

They -are- racist in the sense that anything non-human is reviled. That's pretty different. There's a lot of solidarity when it comes to humans/the Imperium being 'us against them'.

And there are also plenty of examples in the fiction of female guardsmen - there just happen to not be any models for them (which I think is a shame). Off the top of my head I can't think of any examples of women in the Imperium being treated any differently from men, either (though feel free to correct me). So I'm not really sure where you would be getting the idea that the Imperium is sexist.

Are women and ethnic minorities under-represented? Sure - particularly when it comes to the models we see. But that's pretty different from the Imperium coming across as racist (in the modern usage of the word) or sexist.

if you couldn't tell the sexist remark was a jab at GW.

[Anggul]

I have a couple of black friends who play. One plays Orks, the other plays Black Templars.

It's never really come up.



Honestly I think most people just don't think about it. When you have to paint a million guardsmen who no-one cares about and are going to die in droves, it's easier to just sit there and quickly paint their faces all the same. I imagine quite a few people have probably taken the time for a little ethnic variation on things like Kasrkin, but generally people just don't really think about it. It's not racism, just laziness and not-really-caring-what-colour-your-guardsmen-are-ness.

[Kawauso]

. I imagine quite a few people have probably taken the time for a little ethnic variation on things like Kasrkin...

Just because I have to say it: all the Kasrkin models except the sergeant are wearing helmets with goggles/respirators. :)

[Lerra]

I try to make my force as diverse as possible, partially for realism and partially because I have more fun painting 7 squad sergeants in 7 different ways rather than have 7 models that look basically identical.

That said, any model that I attempted to paint as Asian, Hispanic, olive-toned, etc. all basically look like white guys who maybe got a bit more sun than their companions. The darker-skinned models either look like I just base-coated their faces brown without highlights, or if I used brighter highlights, they look like white guys with dirty faces. Painting dark skin is hard.

[the jeske]

+ the face on models are those of white guys[even on alien female models] so painting wont realy help much , unless someone resculpts the model.

[fuzzbuket]

+ the face on models are those of white guys[even on alien female models] so painting wont realy help much , unless someone resculpts the model.

good point there! i never noticed that befor!

[Denzark]

I liked the way Malty dumped this on us and ran...

[the jeske]

Well you know not our foult he has to write his masters on "Different aspects of racism in the table top gaming community and its repercusions on the model design , based on the examples of Games Workshop and Privateer Press model design philosophy". he has to get data from somewhere.

[Necron2.0]

I have a friend who has an I-Guard army with a large contingent of Black penal conscripts. Whenever he deploys them he announces "Operation 'Get-Behind-Darky' is now commencing!" We keep telling him he needs to remake his Commissar to be Cartman (currently it's cobra commander).

I have another friend whose Orks all have sombreros and serapes, and all the trucks have little dingle balls and a small plastic Jesus. I should mention, lest someone tilt their nose skyward, looking askance down a pointed finger and shrieking, "RACIST HERESY!!" ... his wife is Mexican and his kids think it's hysterical.

[fuzzbuket]

oh my those sound hilarious :D can you snap us some pics? (also ask the IG player to make the pimp blimp a purple vendetta with graffiti on the side :P)

[Kawauso]

I have a friend who has an I-Guard army with a large contingent of Black penal conscripts. Whenever he deploys them he announces "Operation 'Get-Behind-Darky' is now commencing!" We keep telling him he needs to remake his Commissar to be Cartman (currently it's cobra commander).

That's a pretty abortive attempt at humour, in my opinion - and I'm assuming that the non-conscripts in the army are not black? I don't think I'd be willing to play against an army like that. Or that I'd even be comfortable hanging around a person who made an army like that.


I have another friend whose Orks all have sombreros and serapes, and all the trucks have little dingle balls and a small plastic Jesus. I should mention, lest someone tilt their nose skyward, looking askance down a pointed finger and shrieking, "RACIST HERESY!!" ... his wife is Mexican and his kids think it's hysterical.

This, on the other hand is not racist.
Poking fun at a culture is not the same as racism, and it's amazing how many people don't really get that.
It's no different than having an army of Canadian lumberjacks. Or joking around about an accent.
It may offend or irritate some people, and it -is- propagating a stereotype, but it's not saying anything inherently negative about a group of people, particularly in relation to another - let alone an ethnicity.

It's the difference between poking fun at men who like man and saying we're all limp-wristed lispers who love sparkles and bright colours (which is pretty damn far from the truth, at least where I'm concerned), versus suggesting something like 'sodomites burn in hell' or that it should be punishable by law.

In no way is that the same as using an ethnic group as cannon fodder in your army.

[the jeske]

But sending in colonial/non white troopers first to take the brunt of hvy fire is a long time part culture thing too. It was done since before people could write and it is done even today .
So doing a "operation human shield" is not only funy , but also historicly correct.


It may offend or irritate some people, and it -is- propagating a stereotype, but it's not saying anything inherently negative about a group of people, particularly in relation to another - let alone an ethnicity.
but that is just showing a long time and supported by history role of those kind of units. It isnt accurate[just like not all mexicans run around in sombrerors every day] , but it is the same cultural steretop that doesnt hurt anyone you mentioned.



that it should be punishable by law.
well in Russia it is. But again this is a different aspect to look for here. Those sucide first wave units cant do anything with their ethnicity , while belonging to a sexual minorities is something you can choose to belong or not .

[Kawauso]

But sending in colonial/non white troopers first to take the brunt of hvy fire is a long time part culture thing too. It was done since before people could write and it is done even today .
So doing a "operation human shield" is not only funy , but also historicly correct.

I can't tell if you're trolling or not.
Just because something used to be part of a culture doesn't mean...well, anything.

And in the instance provided it is pretty clear that it's not being done as some sort of commentary on history or anything else. It's an off-colour joke that I think falls flat on its face.


but that is just showing a long time and supported by history role of those kind of units. It isnt accurate[just like not all mexicans run around in sombrerors every day] , but it is the same cultural steretop that doesnt hurt anyone you mentioned.

No, it's not the same. One is "oh look, these aliens are dressed up like the Mexicans you might see in a Western".
The other is "these guys die first, because they're black and therefore worth less. Than the other soldiers. Hurr hurr - racism, get it guys?"

When bigotry is the punchline of a joke, it's a bad joke.



well in Russia it is. But again this is a different aspect to look for here. Those sucide first wave units cant do anything with their ethnicity , while belonging to a sexual minorities is something you can choose to belong or not .

I don't give a damn what's legal in Russia and what's not - Russia is not somewhere I would look to as a stellar example for observing human rights. It's still legal to do a number of horrible things to people in many Middle Eastern nations - guess what? They're wrong.

And I don't want to get into a 'debate' with you about whether my sexuality is something I 'chose'. Not here. But if that's what you think then you're pretty damn ignorant on the subject.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I have a friend who has an I-Guard army with a large contingent of Black penal conscripts. Whenever he deploys them he announces "Operation 'Get-Behind-Darky' is now commencing!" We keep telling him he needs to remake his Commissar to be Cartman (currently it's cobra commander).I appreciate the South Park reference, but that's getting a bit off. If I didn't get the reference it'd sound pretty horrific!


This, on the other hand is not racist.
Poking fun at a culture is not the same as racism, and it's amazing how many people don't really get that.I haven't heard this phrased so well before. People failing to distinguish between culture and race is a helluva a problem.


while belonging to a sexual minorities is something you can choose to belong or not .I'm not being aggressive about this, but it really isn't a choice. The various conservative or church figures who're found to be gay, then dragged through the mud - I can quite confidently say they never chose that, to live a life tormented because they were raised being told that part of who they are is fundamentally "wrong".

[the jeske]

It's an off-colour joke that I think falls flat on its face.
I dont understand the difference between a human shield black conscripts and sombrero orcs . There is no difference . It may not be funny to you [fun is question of personal taste and culture one grew up in] , but if it wasnt fun at all then the dude that made them wouldnt have painted them that way.


No, it's not the same. One is "oh look, these aliens are dressed up like the Mexicans you might see in a Western".
The other is "these guys die first, because they're black and therefore worth less. Than the other soldiers. Hurr hurr - racism, get it guys?"
nothing to do with racism . they die first because they are black , their job is to die first . I mean do you send your equivalent of top military/militia school in the first wave ? no you dont . It wouldnt make any sense .


When bigotry is the punchline of a joke, it's a bad joke.
dude in a mexican hat is fun , but dude that is black is not fun . I find both ideas hilarious .
I mean if a black human shield dude is a construct of bigotry , then a pseudo mexican [not even a mexican thats more a copy of a copy of a copy of the XIX US way of seeing mexicans] would have to be just the same .


I don't give a damn what's legal in Russia and what's not - Russia is not somewhere I would look to as a stellar example for observing human rights. It's still legal to do a number of horrible things to people in many Middle Eastern nations - guess what? They're wrong.
I dont know , IMO if americans can think that the way their live is the best way to live in the world and that their own country is the best in the world , why shouldnt a Russian be allowed to think that is country is the best in the world . I dont understand the wrong part. What is wrong is decided by law , if law says something is illegal and wrong , then it is . I for example may find the strange and bewildering abilty for auto destruction of own country by opposing ones own goverment/church/public institutions , that one happens to see in some western countries , but If it is legal there , then strange or not , it cant be wrong there . If it was wrong then the sociaty would no longer exist .



And I don't want to get into a 'debate' with you about whether my sexuality is something I 'chose'. Not here. But if that's what you think then you're pretty damn ignorant on the subject.
I agree there is not much to debate . One cant change ones color , while participation in deviant and unnatural acts can . So I agree with you on that.



I can quite confidently say they never chose that, to live a life tormented because they were raised being told that part of who they are is fundamentally "wrong".
I kind of a dont understand how something like this could happen . How can you be tormented by doing something you know is right . That would require you to either questioning the way you were brought up[which puts you outside of any strucuture , because you would be in constant oposition to how the world you live in is ] or you would have to be a sociopath . but if you were one and on a high rank in the church or politic worlds then how the hell would you be caught . The only way for that to happen is if someone higher up[and your already high so this would realy be have to be someone high ranked] wanted to get rid of you. Now am not going to claim this doesnt happen , because it does . But something like that happening on a regular intervals would give the population a wierd idea that A the higher up dudes dont control stuff[so you dont have to listen to them] B your own structure would fall apart[everyone would think that others are out there to get them and blame what ever they are doing on others] C it would undermine the basic rule of all rules , that one does not let people outside of your circle judge members of your group. how would one rule a country , if people could just change stuff to what ever they feel right now[feel not think] ? it would be chaos . I dont see how a situation like this could happen in a good ruled country or organization.

[Kawauso]

A bunch of bull****.

You have some seriously warped views on the world.

Also, we're done here, thanks.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I dont understand the difference between a human shield black conscripts and sombrero orcs . There is no difference . It may not be funny to you [fun is question of personal taste and culture one grew up in] , but if it wasnt fun at all then the dude that made them wouldnt have painted them that way.The conscripts focus on race, the orks focus on culture. Somewhat muddied by how often "Mexican" is used as a racial term.


I agree there is not much to debate . One cant change ones color , while participation in deviant and unnatural acts can . So I agree with you on that.Is the view of this as "deviant" drawn from a religious base? Bear in mind that the same document forbidding homosexuality (Old Testament) also forbids wearing clothes made out of more than one type of fabric, eating shellfish and eating pork. Predates Christ by centuries. Should we allow this to guide us to oppress people?


I kind of a dont understand how something like this could happen . How can you be tormented by doing something you know is right .They were told from birth that homosexuality is "wrong", so they "know" that. But that doesn't change that they're biologically attracted to men. They can never feel that chemical spark of attraction with their wives, and will everyday feel it towards men, making them feel like a bad person.

This unneeded disgust of themselves makes them all the more driven to speak out against homosexuality, which makes them (pointlessly) hate themselves more. It's pretty damn tragic for themselves, and more importantly the innocent people they hurt.

[Kawauso]

The conscripts focus on race, the orks focus on culture. Somewhat muddied by how often "Mexican" is used as a racial term.


To say nothing of the fact that the Orks' getup isn't making any positive or negative statement about Mexican people or culture. Any more than the uniform of the Vostroyan Firstborn says anything about Russian culture.

The use of an ethnicity segregated within a force specifically for service as cannon fodder, however...

[Lerra]

We have a local IG player with a similar theme (he calls it Operation:Get Behind Darky, too). Only all of the conscripts and regular guardsmen are black, and all of the sergeants and higher-ranked guys are white. I'm not quite sure which army is worse.

[the jeske]

To say nothing of the fact that the Orks' getup isn't making any positive or negative statement about Mexican people or culture. Any more than the uniform of the Vostroyan Firstborn says anything about Russian culture.
I think you are very wrong here . The western culture has a very distinct view on what a XIX century kozak is .
The combrero guy , with guns and tequila is also a cultural construct . It was created in XIX century in the US on one side to explain what they troops are doing in mexico[look at our civilised boys fighting those funny looking odd speaking catholic drunks] . Look at the early 50s cartoons or propaganda posters , the sombrero guys is show to make Americans laugh at Mexicans to show how those Mexicans are worse . The propaganda idea is as negative as the of the "jap"[glasses , stucking out teeth] . The difference between the mexican example or the "jap"[again am not using this as a racial slur but as a propaganda named used by the americans in WWII]is that the kozakz are at best feared and at worse hated. And hatred and fear are a good thing , they make you stronger[for example the unity aspect for the hated/feared group]. Now on the other hand being laughted at is much worse , because it takes you to the level of non-humans[not ment as a race , but as people that are the same as us]. you laugh at children , you laugh of comedians[they are so funy] , when you laugh at a sombrero mexican you make him a someone who stand lower then yourself . Per se that is nothing special , still sucks for those people who are mexicans .





Is the view of this as "deviant" drawn from a religious base?
law codex. I think only in Saudi Arabia and Iran does it come from a religious base , but the problem with those countries is that they dont separate the religion from state , or to be more precise they let religion rule over goverment[Russia for example has it the other way around].




This unneeded disgust of themselves makes them all the more driven to speak out against homosexuality, which makes them (pointlessly) hate themselves more. It's pretty damn tragic for themselves, and more importantly the innocent people they hurt.
wait but your talking about what people think here . that doesnt matter , only what is done is important . Pain in the mind does not exist for a sociaty . Well at least till someone kills himself or other people , but then it automaticly becomes external and is condemned . am having problems with understanding this idea. I mean good for sociaty [which is decied by the goverment] is a good thing . You do what the laws says you can , all is good . The problems start when one acts against the law , but then one no longer tragic or innocent , because that would imply that you were in the right at some point [which one cant be if one goes against the law ].then at best one is a trouble maker and at worse a element that works against the sociaty that lets him/her live .
That is why dont think that there is something like innocent people , when innocent would be understood as not doing anything wrong . Innocents implys that someone is checking if someone did or didnt do something wrong . This very implication [the possibility of doing something wrong or being wrong and the need to check that] means that no person can be innocent. there are only those who were checked and those who werent checked enough .

[Kawauso]

So, cool, the ignore list feature finally came in handy for me today - who knew.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

law codex. I think only in Saudi Arabia and Iran does it come from a religious base , but the problem with those countries is that they dont separate the religion from state , or to be more precise they let religion rule over goverment[Russia for example has it the other way around].But where did the law against it originate? Why did people believe it "wrong"? In a fair few countries in older times, prior to Old Testament linked religions rising to prominence, it was accepted and often celebrated.


wait but your talking about what people think here . that doesnt matter , only what is done is important . Pain in the mind does not exist for a sociaty . Well at least till someone kills himself or other people , but then it automaticly becomes external and is condemned . am having problems with understanding this idea. I mean good for sociaty [which is decied by the goverment] is a good thing . You do what the laws says you can , all is good . The problems start when one acts against the law , but then one no longer tragic or innocent , because that would imply that you were in the right at some point [which one cant be if one goes against the law ].then at best one is a trouble maker and at worse a element that works against the sociaty that lets him/her live .
That is why dont think that there is something like innocent people , when innocent would be understood as not doing anything wrong . Innocents implys that someone is checking if someone did or didnt do something wrong . This very implication [the possibility of doing something wrong or being wrong and the need to check that] means that no person can be innocent. there are only those who were checked and those who werent checked enough .
Human pain and thought shapes human action, and are therefore as important. The people change to suit a society, but a society must also change to suit the people. It is an equilibrium between two forces, not one controlling the other.

Legality is not always tied to morality. There are many purely senseless, useless laws, and there have been many more that are overturned. That is how a society grows - fighting against unnecessary strictures. Humans make laws to support what is "right". Humans make mistakes. Laws govern humans, but humans govern laws. It's that equilibrium again.

What is more disrupting for a society - gay rights, or suppression? We've seen the problems suppression leads to. Apart from upsetting suppressors, what negative effects would gay rights have?

Also, note that most of those who "snap" under pressure were not doing anything illegal (including in Russia, I believe) - just something that was socially unaccepted. How do your concepts of right/wrong apply to "traditions" like that?

[Necron2.0]

OK, just to put this into perspective, I cannot help but laugh that people who engage in a game that glorifies homicidal mania can get all morally indignant about the imagined color of whom their victims are. :D

Edit: And as the Right Reverend mentioned, "Operation 'Get-Behind-Darky'" was lifted directly from the movie "South Park: Bigger, Longer & Uncut."

[AnEnemy]

There are no black/white/yellow IG/Marines. They're all grey until you get them on your painting table. It's up to you to decide. White is a generic color that is fairly easy to paint...also allowing for a lot of variation in color range. Also, photographs well. That's probably why GW does it.

Unrelated: Why do people still talk to Jeske?

[the jeske]

But where did the law against it originate? Why did people believe it "wrong"? In a fair few countries in older times, prior to Old Testament linked religions rising to prominence, it was accepted and often celebrated
they are wrong because the goverment says it is wrong . I mean If one goes back in time arab tribes and specialy Persia didnt have any special laws or traditions against . Do by accpeted you mean like it was in Greec or Kreta ? that had little or nothing in common with what homosexuality is/wants to be seen as . today it would come under pedophilia[grown man , young boy. sexual acts between grown were not socialy accepted in most city states and punished by death on kreta] .



Human pain and thought shapes human action, and are therefore as important. The people change to suit a society, but a society must also change to suit the people.
it is shaped by the goverment , a single human being or even a group mean nothing from the point of view of a country . Moraly pain of course is equal for all humans , but only in very rare occasions does does it have an impact on a nation .


Legality is not always tied to morality. There are many purely senseless, useless laws, and there have been many more that are overturned. That is how a society grows - fighting against unnecessary strictures. Humans make laws to support what is "right". Humans make mistakes. Laws govern humans, but humans govern laws. It's that equilibrium again.
I cant agree with that . saying that there are wrong or bad laws , would mean accepting the idea that the goverment can be wrong . If that was truth , then it would automaticly mean it isnt suited to rule and would be destroyed. I agree that humans make mistakes , but goverment doesnt . If it did It would mean that those that rule are the same people that are being ruled . What would stop them then from trying to change the rulers or try to take the goverment for themselfs ? no this way lays anarchy and chaos.
Goverments cant be ruled by laws , because it would mean they are weaker then something .It would stop them from acting and would imply they can go wrong . The equilibrium can only be sustained when one side knows it will be ruled for ever and the other side knows it will rule . Else there is chaos in the sociaty and people think they can do god knows what .




Also, note that most of those who "snap" under pressure were not doing anything illegal (including in Russia, I believe) - just something that was socially unaccepted. How do your concepts of right/wrong apply to "traditions" like that?
Someone who kills himself must have been doing something wrong . One may not know why[that is known only by the people that should know and God] , but someone who has a fixed placed in the sociaty would not kill himself [or act against the sociaty that makes him , civil suicid is more or less the same thing as the real deal] . The very act that is against the sociaty one is in condemns one actions automaticly . One doesnt have to even judge or check why . If someone goes against the rules , the goverment , opposes the existing strucutures , then one does not need to know why he does it [in consequestial in the end], only the form of punishemnt that is tied to that type of transgresion against law.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

@Necron2.0: Part of it is that issues of race are a lot closer to heart. I've never been effected by a genocide of billions, but I spend my life traveling between two places both marred with their own particular race/sexuality issues (technically I'm a 2nd class citizen in my birth country :P [although it's a very gentle form of it, not race/creed/sexuality-focused, only ups certain taxes, restricts land rights and forbids voting]).

How does he present/play with the army? In the movie the joke was always focused on how ridiculous the actions of the general are, not sure how that'd translate to TT.

@Jeske: I was thinking more along the lines of certain periods in Japan - the 1600s?

So, if governments are never wrong, and two governments disagree, how does that work?

Governments are shaped by people. Social groups and controls such as a government are the primary human adaptation - they allow us to adapt within the lifetime of individuals, rather than over generations as physical adaption dictates. A government that can never be wrong or gainsaid is useless, stops it from growing.

Homosexuality harms none, and is legal in many countries, even if faced with an unacceptable amount of limiting factors. Support for gay rights is swelling, and it's becoming more and more harmful for a gov. to fight against it. Last year in Bermuda the concept of gay rights was dismissed as not worthy of discussion, but now our activist groups have a decent dialogue going on with officials, who're starting to accept that change is needed.

[Kawauso]

OK, just to put this into perspective, I cannot help but laugh that people who engage in a game that glorifies homicidal mania can get all morally indignant about the imagined color of whom their victims are. :D


Um, I don't know that I like 40k because it "glorifies homicidal mania". I like it because the models and narrative are really interesting and engaging.

The 40k universe is full of terrible things happening all the time - in a fictional setting, involving fictional groups of people. There is no background or tabletop equivalent of a campaign to exterminate all the Hispanics, for example.

Whereas someone painting up an army of penal conscripts (essentially military slaves) as a visible, real-world ethnic minority to be used as expendable cannon fodder for the benefit of another real-world ethnicity is more than that. It's making a statement about the person who plays such an army, namely: "I find this really funny". There's the possibility it could even be hinting at something more than that, such as "I don't see anything wrong with this" or, Emperor forbid, "I agree with this". The point is, those are not the sort of people with whom I, for one, would choose to associate myself.

Bigoted attempts at 'humour' are even worse than lowest-common-denominator humour, because very much of the time the punchline winds up being the discrimination itself rather than making a statement like "this sort of thing is ludicrous". Pushing people's buttons by being offensive is a cheap shot in the world of comedy; much of the laughter you get is derived from awkward discomfort. A good deal more of it comes from people who are too dense to see what statement you might be trying to make, and may well think it's funny because they agree with the offensive view being presented - this is something I see happen a lot with, as a good example in this case, South Park, and it's one of the reasons I have a very low level of tolerance for such attempts at 'comedy'. It's hard to make something like the aforementioned IG army come across as 'ironic' or 'sarcastic'. It's in poor taste, and it's not funny.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion and the right to express it - but freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences. I think the army(ies) in question are disgusting, and I stand by that; I would refuse to play against them, and quite likely the individual(s) fielding them.






Unrelated: Why do people still talk to Jeske?

I'm surprised it took me so long to put him on my ignore list - guess he was just hitting a little too close to home with his idiocy this time around. I'm perfectly happy to ignore him from now on.

[lomaxxdurang]

My only statement to this is My Marbo is African looking, (in fact he's Samuel L Jackson from Basic), several of my Valkyrie pilots are, and my Ogryn are as well except for Nork because he is pictured as a white guy and I had no movie reference to make him something else. I have at least a half platoon of African colored troopers and special weapon troops. I'm starting more Asian and Hispanic guys too.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

The only non-Librarian helmetless marine I've done has dark skin. This trend bugs me too. I do think for most people it isn't malicious, it's just a slight lack of thought.

[Wolfshade]

Maybe we are looking at this wrong.

Are the non-white GW gamers upset by this?

It has been noted that there are occassions that those who are decrying something as being discriminatory are themselves not the "victim" of the discrimination, and had that group been asked they wouldn't have found the "discrimination" to be offensive or discriminatory.
For instance the Birmingham muslim's reaction to Winterval...

[Denzark]

Maybe we are looking at this wrong.

Are the non-white GW gamers upset by this?

It has been noted that there are occassions that those who are decrying something as being discriminatory are themselves not the "victim" of the discrimination, and had that group been asked they wouldn't have found the "discrimination" to be offensive or discriminatory.
For instance the Birmingham muslim's reaction to Winterval...

No, we are not looking at this wrong.

Are non-white GW gamers upset by this?

Q: Excuse me mr non-white GW gamer, are you upset by a lack of non-white characters?
A: Yes.
Q: Why?
A: Because it doesn't represent the breakdown of society and because non-white characters are equal to white characters.

So now we get into - which society do GW 'Eavy Metal painters reflect - the UK they live in? Cos that'll piss off x million hispanic americans who are not as represented here.

Anyway, if a non-white character is the equal of a white character, that must mean the white character is also the equal of a non-white character. Therefore, in any given 1 character it is eqally valid to have them either colour, meaning the proportionality of any colour spectrum, from all white to all non-white, is equally valid.

If it makes y'all feel better, then all my Chaos Space marine army can be non-whites - except for the ones NOT wearing helmets - most of them have mad coloured mutations in fact my black legion have blue skin from 10000 years fighting the long war. But definitely, everyone under a helmet is non-white.

That suit you?

[Wolfshade]

There is a difference between expecting someone to be upset by it and someone being so. Christmas was renamed winterval because it might offend the non-Christians, when muslim groups were asked about this their attitude was that it was Christmas and the decorations should reflect that, but nobody had spoken to them and just assumed that it would.

I would also suggest that Al'rahem is a non-white character.

[Kawauso]

I would also suggest that Al'rahem is a non-white character.

As is Mogul Kamir.

[eldargal]

I actually find dark skinned paintjobs don't show detail as well in photos unless it is an extremely good paintjob. If it isn't done well they can end up looking like soldiers that have been sculpted out of dark chocolate.

I'm reminded of a quote from Morgan Freeman when asked how will we know when racism is no longer an issue:

We'll stop talking about it.

Kawauso does have a point, these issues are often brought up by people who are NOT the victims, and the supposed victims are often quite bemused by the fuss.

I would suspect that perhaps many anglo-africans and african-americans have considerably more important things to worry about than whether a toy company in Nottingham, England run by middle class white men has enough ethnicities portrayed in the paintjobs on such miniatures.

[Necron2.0]

Well I'm still bemused. Religious intolerance? Fine. Genocide? No worries. Sexual deviations involving torture and murder? Hey, the more the merrier. Racist undertones? HEY!! WHAT THE HELL'S WRONG WITH YOU?!! KIDS ARE PLAYING DAMMIT!! :D

[Kawauso]

Well I'm still bemused. Religious intolerance? Fine. Genocide? No worries. Sexual deviations involving torture and murder? Hey, the more the merrier. Racist undertones? HEY!! WHAT THE HELL'S WRONG WITH YOU?!! KIDS ARE PLAYING DAMMIT!! :D



What I'm saying is that you're failing to distinguish between racist overtones like "kill the alien!" versus those that exist in our real world, expressing real views that real people hold. :P

I'm saying there's a difference.

[eldargal]

Well I guess the issue is that religious intolerance, genocide and whatnot are things we aren't particularly sensitive to anymore. Whereas racism is, even what passes for religious tolerance these days is more about racism than religion.

In terms of the army you mentioned, I think it depends a lot on why your friend is doing it. It could be taken as an indictment of the view that we view non-white life cheaply (the black detective two days from retirement) or it could be taken as a statement that the army owner views non-white life cheaply. Of course if racism truly wasn't an issue it wouldn't matter that he had black penal conscript cannon fodder.

I don't actually see 40k as glorifying war or genocide or anything like that. In fact a few times I've seen some of the chap in our group stop talking midway through a discussion about the Imperium and make some comment along the lines of 'thank god its just a game'. The game and the violence it portrays may be 'cool', but I don't think it glories of revels in genocide, war, tyranny etc.

t;:dr I wouldn't have an issue with it unless he was being genuinely offensive about black people.

[fuzzbuket]

we have been desensitized by everything: books , films, video games, art, EVERYTHING. and whilst there are a few exceptions that are still regarded as genuinely disturbing, many things are now just accepted.

except racism because people like to argue and sue.

really: look at it (just from the top of my head): sin city, the one that flew over the cuckoo's nest, schindlers list(the burning scene). im assuming that 30 years ago the thought of those would horrify people, now they are accepted. however in most films even the goriest, most twisted disturbing film you can think of: still dosnt have much racism. why? because frankly they film company would be sued. a LOT. so due to lack of exposure we have not been desensitised.



or im just far too tired and making this up as i go :P

-fuzz

[Kawauso]

we have been desensitized by everything: books , films, video games, art, EVERYTHING. and whilst there are a few exceptions that are still regarded as genuinely disturbing, many things are now just accepted.

except racism because people like to argue and sue.

really: look at it (just from the top of my head): sin city, the one that flew over the cuckoo's nest, schindlers list(the burning scene). im assuming that 30 years ago the thought of those would horrify people, now they are accepted. however in most films even the goriest, most twisted disturbing film you can think of: still dosnt have much racism. why? because frankly they film company would be sued. a LOT. so due to lack of exposure we have not been desensitised.



or im just far too tired and making this up as i go :P

-fuzz

I have to heartily disagree with this and the similar point EG raised. I don't think that the subject in question is getting any special treatment on the basis of racism - at least that's not why I find it disturbing.

I think that the notion of -any- real-world group of people being segregated within someone's army of toy soldiers to be formed into units of slaves and sent off as cannon-fodder would be just as disturbing.
I don't care if it's on the basis of them being Christian, gay, black, white, whatever. It's ****ed up and reflects poorly on the person who thinks that it makes a good joke.

This has nothing to do with any perceived desensitization; Schindler's List is still horrifying in many ways - I'm not sure how you think that it isn't. It's not -offensive-, however, because it's not using the Holocaust as the punchline of a tasteless joke, nor is it making any statement that might suggest that the ****s were in the right. It's a commentary on the inhumanity of that event and how tragic it is.
If you want to look at a similar example from 40k background, there's that short story in the one HH anthology - The Last Church on Terra, I think it was called. That did deal with religious persecution...but again it wasn't used as the butt of a joke. It was a serious story and the subject matter wasn't being treated frivolously.

That's not really the sort of thing you can do on the tabletop with a racially-segregated army while jokingly referring to it as 'get-behind-darky'. Or an army using, say, white Christian slaves and calling it 'get-behind-WASPs'. I don't think there's anyway to make an effective commentary on bigotry using toy soldiers on the tabletop, really - and that's besides the point because it's pretty clear from the nature of the armies in question that deep social commentary was not the goal as opposed to cheap laughs.

As with many issues in life, context is important.

And again this is vastly different than the initial source of the discussion - i.e. the lack of different ethnicities present among, say Cadian regiments as we see them in GW photos. An army that doesn't reflect an accurate cross-section of society isn't bigoted; the lack of variety doesn't implicitly mean that a stance is being made, similar to how the Sisters of Battle army is not some sort of misandrist stance, or the all-male composition of SM chapters is likewise not some sort of misogynist stance.

[Wildeybeast]

I think that the notion of -any- real-world group of people being segregated within someone's army of toy soldiers to be formed into units of slaves and sent off as cannon-fodder would be just as disturbing.
I don't care if it's on the basis of them being Christian, gay, black, white, whatever. It's ****ed up and reflects poorly on the person who thinks that it makes a good joke.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the unit thing was in reference to the South Park joke of 'Operation get behind the darkies'. SP made this joke as a piece of satire to highlight the historic treatment of blacks in the US army, as well as the current underlying issue of racism in some sections of the US military and society at large. Far from being racist, it's actually mocking the absurdity of racist attitudes. It is the very best form of humour which ridicules the ridiculous and as such is very good joke. Assuming the painter of said army appreciated this and is not a racist redneck who thinks it's a sound plan for dealing with black people, I see nothing wrong with it. Context is king in this case.

[Necron2.0]

To the best of my knowledge, the painter isn't racist. He IS a huge fan of South Park though, to the point that he refers to "First rank fire, second rank fire" as "They're coming right for us!" and anytime his commissar does something he says, "You will respect mah authoritah!"

[daboarder]

So, I've been searching GW's web site and you know what I can't find?

A miniature painted to have black skin. And I'm not talking "jet black with red devil eyes" Salamander black, or a one-off special character. I'm talking real-world, people-of-African-descent black skin (excepting, of course, Tallarn. Who still look suspiciously melanin-free) on just some random guy in the background. I mean, yeah, Marines have helmets and all, but seriously, all those Apocalypse photos with eleventy billion Imperial Guardsmen grimacing as they prepare to die, and not one black face?

Why on Earth is this the case? We can all paint our models any way we wish - I like to have a mix of different ethnicities in my armies (unless they're Mechanics, in which case everyone just looks poorly and grey) - but GW just likes caucasian males. I've seen many people on coolminiornot paint 40K models with tones that aren't caucasian (and when I say "many", I of course mean "very, very few").

Just because it's part of this trope: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreWhite
does that make it remotely acceptable?

Now, I'm not going to accuse 40K of racism, because well, that's not the issue - plus I'll be told "you can paint your models any way you wich", which I do, and which I've already said I've done. I suppose what I'm just wondering is why, given the fact it's 2012, why GW still doesn't paint up its example models as anything but caucasian (because let's be fair, those example models are well, the examples, so they're really damned important).

And saying "the vast majority of players are white", well... *sucks through teeth* that's just a crass and ignorant thing to say. It doesn't even have the reflective thought to ask "Well, is that cause or effect? Maybe more people from different ethnic groups would play if there were more official models representative of them?

I just wonder how many young players thought "this looks cool", then got turned off because it "didn't look like it was for them" if you know what I mean.

Just to say again, I am enquiring regarding GW's company policy, nothing else.

Take that chip off your shoulder and get lost, really go pick a fight somewhere else instead of trying to instigate a witch hunt.

[Wolfshade]

Take that chip off your shoulder and get lost, really go pick a fight somewhere else instead of trying to instigate a witch hunt.

Witch hunt sounds like a job for the anatomically correct SoB to me

[Psychosplodge]

Plus, that far into the future it's quite likely that humanity would have a lot less skintone variation due to increasing 'inter racial' breeding. Sorry. Hate that term. Human is our race. The rest is arbitrary delineation

I got about five pages in then TL;DR it, but this stood out ^, surly individual worlds are more likely to be less diverse, as the seeding colony ships are likely to be drawn from various local populations, so I would think it's more likely that individual populations are less diverse, though as somebody said in the novels where it's mentioned at all there is generally a large degree of diversity.

And to another point it's probably merely unintentional, if the staff are mostly white they'll probably just paint what is normal to them. If the company was based in India with a large Indian market and staff you'd reasonably expect most of the models to be/look indian.

And I think when someone was arguing about female representation last time, wasn't it pointed out that a female soldier in full gear looks very like a male soldier in full gear?

With a gasmask on at this scale who can really tell the ethnicity?

[bfmusashi]

Now I want to drop some Gurkha Guardsmen on someone.
On the whole diversity thing, there's little sexy contact between breeding populations in the IoM and they're isolated for periods far longer than necessary to get a dominant skin tone phenotype. Seriously, though, it's scifi, so stupid crap like the planet of Scotsmen, the planet of Turks, and the ever popular planet of perfect Romans is totally acceptable. It's stupid, it's so stupid and we love it.

[Kyban]

Witch hunt sounds like a job for the anatomically correct SoB to me

"She turned me into a newt!"

On topic: The only people who we don't hear complaining about racism anymore are the mature minorities, the only ones who really have any right to. It was such a sensitive issue for so long many people have trouble letting it go, not that it still isn't an issue in some places but it would require a lot more than a friendly debate to change the mindset of the kind of close minded bigots who still think that way.

Edit: Found an interesting quote that goes well with the topic: "The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract."