Monstrous creatures and close combat?

[papa smurf]

Hey all, just a thing I noticed in the new rulebook about monstrous creatures. In the unit type entry, nothing is said about the AP value of monstrous creatures; however, they do have the 'Smash' special rule.

Smash attacks have the AP2 characteristic, but this is obviously only if one decides to use smash. Does that mean units fighting monstrous creatures benefit from their armor saves against a monstrous creature if it is just using its regular attacks?

Obviously this is a moot point for some monstrous creatures with equipment, like a Hive Tyrant with a bonesword, since boneswords explicitly ignore armor saves. But let's say a carnifex, whose close combat upgrades do not mention ignoring armor saves, gets in a fight and decides not to use smash attacks. does that mean even the lowliest ork boy will get his 6+ save? I feel this might have been an oversight by GW and makes monstrous creatures significantly weaker against non-vehicles.

[Nachodragon]

Smash grants AP 2 all the time. Smash also grants a second type of attack the MC can use.

[papa smurf]

oh man, looks like I just read it wrong! I thought the AP2 only came when you decided to halve the attacks and double the strength. Thanks for the clarification!

[Demonus]

Poor MC got hosed. I hope the new Wraithlord gets a 40pt decrease in cost.

[Archon Charybdis]

Poor MC got hosed. I hope the new Wraithlord gets a 40pt decrease in cost.

Cause yeah, that's not a huge overreaction. It's not like MC's benefit from area terrain as infantry now, or picked up Hammer of Wrath or anything. If there's something to hope for on the Wraithlord (or Eldar in general) it's that their weapon prices finally get put in line and not be mind-boggingly expensive. 40pts for a Brightlance? Long Fangs are almost assuredly underpriced at 20 for a Lascannon, but BA devastators pay 25 for it, and all around it's a better gun.

[Thanatos_elNyx]

Poor MC got hosed.

My FMC in my Flying Circus disagree with you.

[evilamericorp]

Poor MC got hosed. I hope the new Wraithlord gets a 40pt decrease in cost.

The hell you say. MCs only got buffs this edition, and wraithlords' base point cost is fine. If anything needs to get cheaper, it's carnifexes.

[Archon Charybdis]

The hell you say. MCs only got buffs this edition, and wraithlords' base point cost is fine. If anything needs to get cheaper, it's carnifexes.

Indeed. I think the Wraithlord's base cost is just fine, it's just the weapon options are way out of whack. I've been running a Wraith Wall list since my Mechdar kind of took it in the pants, and it's been performing very well. Also, without a shiny new Trygon kit to sell next codex, it's entirely possible the Carnifex will go back to being affordable and useful.

[Tynskel]

the carnifex is totally affordable for the kind of power you are getting. To put it in ork: It'll Krump 'eads.

[Defenestratus]

The hell you say. MCs only got buffs this edition, and wraithlords' base point cost is fine. If anything needs to get cheaper, it's carnifexes.

Well except for the whole going at I1 when charging through terrain.

That really sucks for Wraithlords.

[Archon Charybdis]

Well except for the whole going at I1 when charging through terrain.

That really sucks for Wraithlords.

That's nothing new to this edition though, and I'm not sure how striking at I1 hurts a Wraithlord more than any other MC.

[Kevlarshark]

Fex are way, way, way over costed.

For 160 points you get the equivelent of an AV 10 dreadnaught with 4 hull points...except all his stats (except attacks) are worse...he doesnt even come with any guns...with actual weapons he is more around the 200 points mark
A Dred costs 100 points with guns.

Fex need a 70 point reduction.

[DrLove42]

Yeah...but a Dread can be killed by a single guy with a melta gun or lascannon.

A fex gets a save, a dread invariably doesn't.

You can't compare walkers to MC's. Compare them to other MC's to get a fair point

[Anggul]

Yeah, they definitely shouldn't drop by 70pts, that would be ridiculous and even worse than the old 4th ed Carnifexes of cheap sipammyness. I think a 30pts drop would be fine, maybe 40pts at a push. Nothing more than that though.

No-one can reasonably argue that they're actually worth their points, especially not when Tervigons and Trygons exist.

Tynskel doesn't count, he does so love his trolling. ;)

[Kevlarshark]

I guess so...

I know basically nothing (except the wraith lord) in the game can match the Carnifex's natural strength 9, but now with smash most MCs can come pretty close.

Similar Tough Heavy MC type units

Wraith Lord =100 points
The fex has one more wound, two more attacks and the same save, but loses in every other department (even strength!)

Talos = 100 points
Again the fex has one more wound and +2 strength but is trumped with every other stat.

lets see what other codex get for a similar cost.

160 points = Great Unclean one
Better WS +3, BS+1, W+1, I+1, Ld+3...has a 4+ invulnerable save, Feel no pain and 2+poison attacks.
Fex loses out on everything but strength, the GUO even has three more special rules and Psychic powers!

160 points = Codex Chaos Daemon Prince, Mark of Nurgle, Wings, Doombolt.
(OK the DP has been upgraded to make the 160 but..)The Daemon Prince ridiculously outclasses the Fex
+4 WS, +2 BS, +4 I, mobility with the wings a 5+ Invunerable save and 3+ Armour plus a shooting attack with his Psychic powers.

I always had the niggling sensation that the fex's 160 point base cost was a typo... because even within the Tyranid codex it does not make sense... a Tyrant is only 10 points more equals or betters all the Fex's stats , comes with a lashwhip and instant death bonesword (a 15 point upgrade for nid warriors) and 2 Psychic powers

The Fex just cant rock it with the other 150 point plus boys... and even the 100 point units are pretty much better.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I presume you're taking the Wraithsword on the Wraithlord to make him 100 points?

[Kevlarshark]

Yep! Sword. Was just going for the plain CC type as it was as close as possible to the standard fex.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Ah, cool. :)

[DrLove42]

Yeah as has been said don't think anyone can say the fex is reasonable

I think its points cost is the unlucky end of a "it was great in 4th so nerf it. Everyone has one, so won't buy new stuff, nerf further. and then we want people to buy other stuff so make it more expensive and make everythign else cheaper!"

A wraithlords biggest weakness is it only has 2 attacks. Being fearless isn't an issue now.

[Kevlarshark]

Yes, the sword should boost its attacks by 1...and you should be be able to take 2! :)

[Angelofblades]

Basic Dread Knight is S10 base, with a weapon that can cause ID...no need to perform Smash, when it is already S10 base.

[Tynskel]

it isn't str10 base. the doom fist makes the dread knight str 10.

[Malogharst]

the GUO even has three more special rules and Psychic powers!


I'm sorry, what? Where are the Psychic powers in the Daemon codex, show me please.

[Kevlarshark]

Sorry they are "supernatural powers" which are not like Psychic powers in any way (even if most of the are lifted almost directly from the Physic powers in Codex Chaos Space marines) because they do not require a test to use.

I stand corrected.

[Malogharst]

They are shooting weapons, actually. But there will be psychic powers in the new codex when it will be released, there is a clue in BRB regarding Daemons getting Perils of the Warp.

Sorry for the offtopic.

[Demonus]

sorry how did the wraithlords get improved by 6e again? oh they got a smash attack, to make them...oh wait. i know, they get to go at i1 when charging through cover! nope, that's not it. LOL yep, while some MC got better in 6th (Dreadknights), Wraithlords got hosed.

like I said, Im hoping they get a huge decrease in cost in the new codex or are redone all together as the way they currently are, there isnt much point taking them.

[Anggul]

I'd say Eldar just need to realise that they should probably stick force-fields on big important things. i.e. Wraithlords. FW gave the Wraithseer a 5++ for a reason.

That and +2 attacks are all the Wraithlord really needs. Maybe 2+ armour, just because there's no reason the Eldar wouldn't make it as tough as a Terminator, it's not like they have to take strength and weight into consideration, it's a spirit warrior. Not so sure on that one in terms of gameplay though. Fortune might make it a bit too powerfulif it had 2+ armour.

[Irdion]

That's the thing to remember in this entire debate. Units aren't normally balanced against other armies, but rather internally against the existing army. Naturally there are other considerations (selling kits, showcasing new models, etc.) but internal balance is the key point. It's why Ogryn are so expensive in the IG codex (while they'd be dirt cheap in the Ork codex).

In the case of the Carnifex, there is no argument from me about it costing two many points when compared with other MC's. However, you need to take into account the plethora of cheap and effective troops (Gaunts being ridiculously good for their cost), as well as the abilities that other choices bring to the field. Tyranids are a strong army irregardless of the presence of Carnifexes. Could they benefit from a 30 point drop? Very likely. However, keep in mind the rest of the army when constructing arguments.

And Wraithlords are awesome, the only thing they'd ever need are a couple more attacks and not to compete so directly with War Walkers ;)

[DarkLink]

And no one uses Ogryns.


sorry how did the wraithlords get improved by 6e again? oh they got a smash attack, to make them...oh wait. i know, they get to go at i1 when charging through cover! nope, that's not it. LOL yep, while some MC got better in 6th (Dreadknights), Wraithlords got hosed.


Fear, challenges, and they can actually get cover very easily now.

[Aramel]

Unless you are talking about the wraithseer, I am pretty sure ordinary wraithlords are not characters and therefore cannot challenge. Otherwise I find my wraithlords to be performing much better in 6th. Str10 base is a huge advantage over other MCs that have to waste attacks to become str 10. I often put mine behind a wall for a 4+ cover. Fear and HoW are not huge but nice bonuses. T8 is still the wraithlord's best defense.

[DarkLink]

Wraithlords are characters.

[Archon Charybdis]

sorry how did the wraithlords get improved by 6e again? oh they got a smash attack, to make them...oh wait. i know, they get to go at i1 when charging through cover! nope, that's not it. LOL yep, while some MC got better in 6th (Dreadknights), Wraithlords got hosed.

like I said, Im hoping they get a huge decrease in cost in the new codex or are redone all together as the way they currently are, there isnt much point taking them.

My very succesful Wraith Wall list disagrees.

I'm not sure what you're on about with striking at I1 when charging through cover--that's nothing new. Further, it affects every MC in the game so it's hardly a Wraithlord specific rule--and once again--it's not new, so not a nerf, and not relevant to your argument.

Yeah, Smash isn't as useful to a Wraithlord as it is to say a Trygon, but it's not as though it actively makes the Wraithlord worse than other MCs. MCs in general are less effective at popping stationary or combat speed vehicles, but much better at killing cruising speed vehicles.

Also, the ready availability of cover saves is a pretty big boost; it's saved my Wraithlords a number of times. And as DarkLink pointed out, being able to challenge the Pfist sergeant or HQ is incredibly handy.

[Tynskel]

Considering Smash makes you AP2, that's a buff to Wraithlords.
Also, Wraithlords get +1 extra attack on the charge (Hammer of Wrath). So what that it is AP-, that's a free str 10 hit, at I10. maneuver yourself to a character, and then squish him (instant death) before he can do anything.

Oh, and they get cover easily. And cause Fear. Don't forget that they ignore Dangerous Terrain checks...

Seriously, the Wraithlord, like all monsterous creatures, got some major buffs.

[Aramel]

You cannot mannouver yourself in a charge, you must make contact with the closest model first sadly, but if you manage to kill off models and leave the IC closest then it can be awesome.

[Tynskel]

And what's this 'no maneuver' thing you talk about? It is the same as before. And the whole charge thing? You have always had to charge closest model...

The wraithlord can challenge! Just squish that character.

[Demonus]

Considering Smash makes you AP2, that's a buff to Wraithlords.
Also, Wraithlords get +1 extra attack on the charge (Hammer of Wrath). So what that it is AP-, that's a free str 10 hit, at I10. maneuver yourself to a character, and then squish him (instant death) before he can do anything.

Oh, and they get cover easily. And cause Fear. Don't forget that they ignore Dangerous Terrain checks...

Seriously, the Wraithlord, like all monsterous creatures, got some major buffs.

lol they were ap2 before, how is that a buff over 5th?

[Tynskel]

no, they were not. AP2 is a new ability and does new things in the game.
This is a buff over not being AP2.

[Demonus]

oh gotcha. before they ignored your armor saves (or ap2 lol) and got +1d6 bonus to pen. Now they are ap2, get no bonus pen, and get +1 on the damage chart. Id be pressed to call that an "upgrade". maybe a wash /shrug

[Aramel]

maneuver yourself to a character, and then squish him (instant death) before he can do anything.

I may have read it incorrectly, but to me it sounded as though you were suggesting that you could take the wraithlord and place him next to an enemy character when you charged, no matter where that character was, provided you had room and range. I was simply pointing out that you cannot do that.

[da_WaaaghMaster]

Meh. Just turn the Wraithlord back into a Dread like the old days, and reduce its cost. I agree the Bright Lance is over-priced. It's basically a glorified shorter ranged Krak missile vs. most vehicles.

[Tynskel]

I may have read it incorrectly, but to me it sounded as though you were suggesting that you could take the wraithlord and place him next to an enemy character when you charged, no matter where that character was, provided you had room and range. I was simply pointing out that you cannot do that.

The Wraithlord is a character, and therfore can challenge characters. Essentially, you move the models into base to base.

[Aramel]

Meh. Just turn the Wraithlord back into a Dread like the old days, and reduce its cost. I agree the Bright Lance is over-priced. It's basically a glorified shorter ranged Krak missile vs. most vehicles.

Making him a vehicle would be horrible. Maybe he deserves an extra wound, but at least you can be confident that he cannot be destroyed by a lucky single las-cannon shot. I also find the MC/Character rules extremely beneficial and generally T8 and a 3+ save will keep the wraithlord alive to draw fire from what the enemy really should be shooting at!

Although slightly over-priced, the bright lance is excellent at what it is intended to do, which is to take on AV 13-14 vehicles. We have so many str 6-7 weapons that lower AV vehicles should not really be the target of your BL unless you have nothing better to shoot at. Lets not forget the EML, which is still the best rocket launcher in the game and reasonably priced imo.

[da_WaaaghMaster]

Making him a vehicle would be horrible. Maybe he deserves an extra wound, but at least you can be confident that he cannot be destroyed by a lucky single las-cannon shot. I also find the MC/Character rules extremely beneficial and generally T8 and a 3+ save will keep the wraithlord alive to draw fire from what the enemy really should be shooting at!

Although slightly over-priced, the bright lance is excellent at what it is intended to do, which is to take on AV 13-14 vehicles. We have so many str 6-7 weapons that lower AV vehicles should not really be the target of your BL unless you have nothing better to shoot at. Lets not forget the EML, which is still the best rocket launcher in the game and reasonably priced imo.

Personally I think the Wraithlord is spot-on points wise @ W3 & T8(except the Brightlance). I was merely suggesting it be turned back into a Dread to quiet the "OMG the Wraithlord costs too much/is nerfed/needs to be more 1337" crowd. It works just fine in friendly games (where you won't encounter 600 Lootas/Long fangs), and I'd wager only runs into trouble when your opponent is spamming high strength shots at it in tourneys. I think the Brightlance is only slightly overpriced as well. Maybe 30-35 pts (although my Land Raider and Battlewagon would disagree). Most folks seem to forget it's on a BS 4 hard-as-nails weapon platform, when most other Brightlances are BS 3 in the army.