Communism - Did it not fail in 1990 or has the Gubmint Brainwashed me??????

[Denzark]

Please see quote from Comrade Gendoikari:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gendoikari87
You can run a business at a net zero. Profits to shareholders is nothing more than outright theft from the working class. (no i'm not having that discussion again, i've proved it mathematically, it's generally accepted, if you choose to still support it for it's benefits and take it's downsides that's your deal)

Original comment:

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=23723&page=11



Did I see the fall of the Soviet Union, the most murderous oppressive establishment in history, or has some filthy capitalist jedi-mind tricked me?

Anyone, including Tovarsich Zampolit Gendoiraki want to discuss profit making as theft from the working class?

[Wildeybeast]

Why get het up about his crazy commie agenda? It failed, they lost, democracy won, everyone goes home happy and with wonderful things like hot and cold running water and getting food delivered to your door, rather than spending hours queuing in the snow for it. The fact that he uses concepts of mathematical 'proof' alongside emotive and subjective language like theft should tell you all you need to know about his argument.

[Denzark]

Yeah but I can't resist the urge to prick at this idea a little more- just that TDA with his new found purple font is casting critical eyes so thought would take it down here to the oubliette, where no-one can hear you scream.

[SotonShades]

Profit is good.

Some companies take it too far and do make too much profit at the expense of certain services (particularly where medical/nursing care is involved) or the well being of their workers. That is different.

Running a company at net-zero profit is self destructive. Any unforseen errors in production, market fluctuations or other areas will immediately sink the business or at the very least force an unexpected rise in prices. It also doesn't give the company any ability to expand without relying on outside sources (such as commercial loans or investors) which limits it's potential. While a loan can be paid off and that cost can be taken in to account, investors want a return which may or may not be at a given date. If it is, it works similar to interest. If not, you need to be able to have that cash value to hand effectively. In either case you need profit to pay for it.

Newho, before I do any more gendoikari87 baiting, I would love to see his proof. Especially as Economics doesn't generally work on proofs, and bends the scientific meanings behind its 'theories' anyway (more akin to tested hypothosies). On top of that, while I have heard of several attempts to 'prove' Communism can work from a geo-political stand point amongst others, I have read a few others that show in no uncertain terms that it has little to no long term standing from a monetary prospective. Communism requires all things to be in harmopnic balance. The nature of the universe is the of entropic decay. Those two aren't exactly singing from the same hymn sheet. I'm not saying capitolism is necessarilly better, and certainly a mix of both extremes in a requisit for the modern world not to collapse in on itself, but it certainly able to survive longer and give us all the more improves world we live in and have done since the 16-1700's.

[eldargal]

It's theft, and Bad, to pay someone to work for you and pay stockholders dividends, but it's fine to murder tens of millions of your own people when they give you lip about it. That's the Communist way!:rolleyes:

[Wolfshade]

We have never had a proper communist state.
If we asume that the resources of earth are finite, then there is a finite amount of money and so the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Ideologically, I have no issue with a state where everyone is equal and have even access to services and where everyone is working together for the good of everyone else.

The trouble is that human greed and the requirement to gather wealth seems to undermine everything.

Imagine a situation where a brain surgeon and a road sweeper are valued equally by society. Both perform a specific and important role, and arguably the road sweeper has a greater impact on society than the brain surgeon.
But the surgeon has spent however much longer training and specialising to get to where they need to be.

[eldargal]

We've never had a true communist state because such a thing cannot exist. Communism only functions at a level where everyone knows everyone else. It functions quite well at that level it has to be said. But we have had plenty of states with ideologically communist governments, and nearly all of them have slaughtered their own population because at a state level communism always fails (see above re: cannot exist) and the people who bear the brunt of the failure are the people who Communism claims to support.

I have a problem with a society where everyone is viewed equally because peoples contributions to society are not and never will be equal. To take your brain surgeon and street sweeper. It takes years of training to become a brain surgeon and an extremely high degree of intelligence. Nearly anyone can can be trained to operate street sweeping equipment in quite a short space of time. If that street sweeper accidentally runs himself over with his own sweepermobile he can be replaced quickly and cheaply and with less effort and iem expended on his or her part. The same cannot be said for the brain surgeon.

Of course, everyone needs to be treated equally by the law, that is a different matter. We used to have that in Britain until a certain guvmint decided common law was for idiots and decided it would be ok to make crimes against certain people subject to harsher treatment than against others.:(

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Thanks for that Denzark.
Really appreciate it, honestly.


You realise that I can go here too?

[Wolfshade]

Of course, everyone needs to be treated equally by the law, that is a different matter. We used to have that in Britain until a certain guvmint decided common law was for idiots and decided it would be ok to make crimes against certain people subject to harsher treatment than against others.:(

What irritates me the most is that crimes against property and possessions are dealt with more harshly than crimes against the person.
You can get more years for commiting fraud then you do murdering people with your car...

[Denzark]

Thanks for that Denzark.
Really appreciate it, honestly.


You realise that I can go here too?

Sh*t its you! Ha Ha:D

Of course dear Sir but thought you may prefer a gently bantering topic to be away from the serious cut and thrust of the main 40K discussion thingymabob.

Just trying to stay on the straight and narrow guv'nor.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I'm usually here, the Oubliette is the Derailment's home. :D

I do however have to patrol the 40k threads with my moderator-ship-ness.

[eldargal]

That does irritate me, too.

What irritates me the most is that crimes against property and possessions are dealt with more harshly than crimes against the person.
You can get more years for commiting fraud then you do murdering people with your car...


Oh I forgot, foie gras is delicious.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Oh I forgot, foie gras is delicious.

I fix. :D

[eldargal]

I need more sleep.:(

[Wolfshade]

I need more sleep.:(

I need a 23" ribble, but we don't always get what we want

[Denzark]

Dare I ask (I know I'm going to rgret this) what is a ribble?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

A bike thing apparently.

[eldargal]

That is much more wholesome than I expected, not sure you've got the hang of the internet Wolfshade.

I'm off to google 'ribble rule 34'.

[Denzark]

Back in my school days I remember our first ever internet terminal (1997 if you must know). A science master decided to demonstrate a search engine, and being a physics teacher, he typed in 'The Big Bang'.

Even back then he was rewarded, much to our delight, with terabytes of hardcore grot that was more biology related.

Since then I am wary of googling things like 23" Ribble.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh myyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[Wolfshade]

I must be to innocent.
But I would like one, I would ride it hard all day, till I would be sore

[eldargal]

That's the spirit!

[Denzark]

OK, I couldn't resist. Looks like you are out of luck, Ribble does things in metric!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

o_o WELP.

[Wolfshade]

OK, I couldn't resist. Looks like you are out of luck, Ribble does things in metric!

It's an unholy combination of both frame sizes in metric, componet sizes in imperial.

Anyway a 23" ribble sounds better than a 58cm ribble

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Have fun kids. (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/FATAL)

Also......... THREAD DERAILED.

[SotonShades]

I like how nearly everyone has said no they don't want to discuss the morality of profits and has than more or less gone on to discuss thread topic, if only under the guise of the morality/feasability of communism.

Also, Foie Gras for me please. Though today's breakfast/lunch is more likely to be a bacon and scrambled egg wrap as that is about alol I have in the house.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

And as usual, me and Wolfie have derailed the thread.

HORSEMEN ASSEMBLE!

[SotonShades]

Reading back, I think it was more you and Denzark derailing, with you, Wolfie and EG extrapolating that deviation. Not arguing, just think credit where credit is due :p

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

He started it with his monotonous sarcasm. :p
Jokes, love to Denzark.


I find it funny how we've kinda turned EG into a derailer.

[Denzark]

Can't one stray from the thread of one's own conversation?

Prolly more interesting than commie brainwashing anyway, now I know what a 23" ribble is thus proving once again, that every day is a schoold day.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Ev'ry day I move from one place to another, and back again.

http://cdn.tentblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/lmfao-every-day-i-m-shufflin.png

[eldargal]

Rule 34 is wrong, there is no ribble pornography!

[Wolfshade]

I can smell a kickstarter project, all I need is £1,500 and I can remove this omission from the rules...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

eldargal, in accordance with Rule 35, you know what you MUST do.

[eldargal]

'Ah, yes, "ribble porn". We have dismissed those claims'.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

HAHAHAHA!
My lungs.

Ouch, that actually hurt.

[Uncle Nutsy]

Have fun kids. (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/FATAL)

Also......... THREAD DERAILED.

holy...

mother of god...

i'm just dying from laughter here. there's some seriously screwed up stuff in there.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

"I need to roll my anal circumference? Oh my"

[DarkLink]

My internet goes out and I miss the good part...


The idea that profit is bad, or even that it is theft, is laughable. Profit is the net creation of a business venture. It's the creation of worth, to take something that currently exists and make it more valuable than it was. It's the reason why industrialized nations have such a high standard of living, and undeveloped nations do not.

Even cases where stockholders gouge every penny out of a company tends to make a net profit for people. Not a balanced profit, as some people are getting huge profits and some are getting very small ones, but it's still a net profit.

That's not to say that that's a good way to run the economy. Gouging is how you wind up with things like the sub-prime mortgage crisis we're still recovering from. There's a purpose to a degree of organized labor, even if unions are a horribly messed up system as they exist today, and there's a certain amount of regulation required to allow things to run properly. But the basic criticism leveled, that profit is bad, is fundamentally unsound.