Question about Super Heavy Tanks

[Valkerie]

Not a very important question, but one that I can't seem to find an answer for. The sources I've checked (surprise, surprise,) contradict each other.

The question is, Are super heavy tanks part of an Imperial Guard Regiment, or are they seconded to the regiment by the Adeptus Mechanicus? I know that Titans and Titan Legions are part of the Machine Cult, and that the super heavies are built by the Machine Cult, but do they retain control over their deployment, or are they issued to the regiments and then become the property of the regiments? Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Gotthammer]

They're part of an IG regiment (or a SH regiment in their own right). Whilst they are built by the mechaniucs most of the IG's tanks are too, so that's not a factor. SH tanks are likely solely produced by Mechanicus worlds due to advanced technical wotsits, but once built are handed over to the Munitiorium.

The Mecahnicus only has control over the forces of the Collegia Titanica, Skitarii and the Ordinatus superheavies.

[Denzark]

Although the bigger ones may have a tech priest on board.

[JamesP]

As stated by Gotthammer, they are part of the IG. Specifically, they form part of their armoured regiments, with each super heavy being viewed as the equivalent of a squadron of lesser tanks

In Epic Space Marine and Titan Legions, super heavy tanks could be fielded in companies of three tanks (for comparison, a Leman Russ company consisted of 3 squadrons of 3 tanks each plus one company command tank). There is also an Apocalypse formation of 3+ Baneblades called the Steel Fury Baneblade Company on the GW website.

Going back to Epic, a single super heavy tank was the equivalent of a platoon of infantry or a squadron of normal tanks.

I'm not sure how super heavy formations are defined in the current edition of Epic - I can't remember it off the top of my head don't have my rulebook to hand - but I don't think there were any significant changes from the earlier editions.

I suspect the various Forgeworld books have further information on how super heavies are organised, company markings, etc.

[Eberk]

Real life (historical WWII) comparisons can be made.


Super Heavy tanks are part of their own regiment/batalion (say 10 super heavies in a regiment ??)

They are not part of an infantry regiment but will be controled on higher levels (Division/Corps/Army/Army Group) and will be temporarily seconded to parts of the battleline where their support is needed. Most of the time only a single super heavy but if needs arrise then a full company (or even regiment) can fight together.

This is how I think it works

[Chris*ta]

They're part of an IG regiment (or a SH regiment in their own right). Whilst they are built by the mechaniucs most of the IG's tanks are too, so that's not a factor. SH tanks are likely solely produced by Mechanicus worlds due to advanced technical wotsits, but once built are handed over to the Munitiorium.

The Mecahnicus only has control over the forces of the Collegia Titanica, Skitarii and the Ordinatus superheavies.

You're leaving out the Knights! Aren't they controlled by the Collegia Titanica? I can't remember the Adeptus Mechanicus era fluff too well ...


Real life (historical WWII) comparisons can be made.


Super Heavy tanks are part of their own regiment/batalion (say 10 super heavies in a regiment ??)

They are not part of an infantry regiment but will be controled on higher levels (Division/Corps/Army/Army Group) and will be temporarily seconded to parts of the battleline where their support is needed. Most of the time only a single super heavy but if needs arrise then a full company (or even regiment) can fight together.

This is how I think it works

It's probably not worth comparing to WWII. The heaviest tanks (that actually saw battle, at least) in WWII were about 70 tonnes, compared to the "typical" tanks being around 30. In the 40th millennium, Leman Russes are 60 tonnes, whereas the Baneblade is over 300 tonnes.

One good point you do mention is that super heavies will not be in the same regiment as infantry. The fluff has it that the vast majority of regiments are highly specialised, so infantry for one regiment, artillery for another, tanks for a third, cavalry for yet another, and super heavies for a fifth.

I'm sure I've seen somewhere that you would have anti aircraft weapons as a separate regiment, but can't help but wonder if it wouldn't be more logical to have them incorporated into other regiments.

[Traveler]

I'm sure I've seen somewhere that you would have anti aircraft weapons as a separate regiment, but can't help but wonder if it wouldn't be more logical to have them incorporated into other regiments.

They are a separate regiment as well, they have a little story about a Hydra regiment shooting down a bunch of chaos drop pods or something in the IG codex under the Hydra entry.

[Chris*ta]

Yeah, I'm just dubious about them being separate regiments because, strategically speaking, they can't actually do anything! They're there purely to protect other assets from air attack. Which means that any AA regt would permanently be divided up in to small units (i.e. 3 hydras) and attached to every other regt in the warzone. Which is why it makes more sense to have small amounts of AA organic to regts that need it. At least you'd know they speak the same form of Low Gothic that way ;)

[The AKH]

You probably have instances of both occurring across the galaxy - there are some dedicated AA regiments, and many armoured regiments that have AA companies.

[Chris*ta]

It just seems odd to have AA regiments, because the purpose of AA is purely to defend other assets, whereas every other regiment has an offensive purpose.

Imagine how you'd feel being a commander if 10 AA regiments turned up to the planet you're meant to be liberating and nothing else. :confused:

[The AKH]

It just seems odd to have AA regiments, because the purpose of AA is purely to defend other assets, whereas every other regiment has an offensive purpose.

Imagine how you'd feel being a commander if 10 AA regiments turned up to the planet you're meant to be liberating and nothing else. :confused:

Welcome to the grand workings of the Departmento Munitorum, buddy.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Imagine how you'd feel being a commander if 10 AA regiments turned up to the planet you're meant to be liberating and nothing else. :confused:"Lieutenant, which edition are we pacifying this planet in?"
"6th, sir. Our 10,000 Hydras all have Skyfire."
"Oh dear Emperor we are boned."

[The AKH]

There's an incident in one of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels where a commissar literally has to get into a punch-up with the commander of an AA detachment before he will see the sense in using his Hydras to discomfit an enemy infantry column.

[Eberk]

It's probably not worth comparing to WWII. The heaviest tanks (that actually saw battle, at least) in WWII were about 70 tonnes, compared to the "typical" tanks being around 30. In the 40th millennium, Leman Russes are 60 tonnes, whereas the Baneblade is over 300 tonnes.

One good point you do mention is that super heavies will not be in the same regiment as infantry. The fluff has it that the vast majority of regiments are highly specialised, so infantry for one regiment, artillery for another, tanks for a third, cavalry for yet another, and super heavies for a fifth.

I'm sure I've seen somewhere that you would have anti aircraft weapons as a separate regiment, but can't help but wonder if it wouldn't be more logical to have them incorporated into other regiments.
I beg to differ.

Don't look at the weight of the tanks (or else we should also look at the roads those 300+ tonnes tank ride on and their fuel consumption ;) ).

The comparison I want to make is that in WWII there were tanks that were (more than) twice as heavy as the 'normal/mainstream' tanks but were a hundredth times as rare (which I think Baneblades are in comparison to Leman Russes).

Those 'rare' tanks were grouped in their own units and controlled at a higher level (divisional, corps, ...)

So I think my comparison still stands :)


But of course... it's all matter of different point of view and different names.

I like to think that Infantry regiments are between 2000 and 10.000 men in size which make it possible to combine a couple of them into divisions/corps/armies..... together with supporting elements.

But the Krieg 'regiments' mentioned in the Siege of Vrakks were 500.000 men a piece.


So I think (and this is again a real-world comparison) that every unit is 'specialized' in some aspect of warfare (being artillery, recon, infantry, mechanised, etc...) but that those 'units/regiments' are combined into battle ready divisions (/corps/armies/...) and those are send to warzones.
Depending on which types of 'units/regiments' are part of the 'division' you can have 'Infantry' divisions (which contain at least infantry, artillery and recon) or 'Mechanised' divisions (which contain at least armour, artillery and recon) for example... Super heavies companies/batalions will be assigned to those 'high level' divisions/corps/...

So altough it is fantasy it is worth a comparison with real-life examples regarding organization of units.


This is all in a perfect world... So I think it is entirely possible for 10 AA regiments to arrive at a planet without any form of support in the imperium... the wheels of the munitorum grind slowly :D

[Chris*ta]

I beg to differ.

Don't look at the weight of the tanks (or else we should also look at the roads those 300+ tonnes tank ride on and their fuel consumption ;) ).

The comparison I want to make is that in WWII there were tanks that were (more than) twice as heavy as the 'normal/mainstream' tanks but were a hundredth times as rare (which I think Baneblades are in comparison to Leman Russes).

Those 'rare' tanks were grouped in their own units and controlled at a higher level (divisional, corps, ...)

So I think my comparison still stands :)

I'm wondering what tanks you're referring to here. If you mean the King Tiger and/or Jagdtiger, my understanding is that these were incorporated in to, say, the SS Panzer divisions as Heavy Tank companies.


But of course... it's all matter of different point of view and different names.

I like to think that Infantry regiments are between 2000 and 10.000 men in size which make it possible to combine a couple of them into divisions/corps/armies..... together with supporting elements.

But the Krieg 'regiments' mentioned in the Siege of Vrakks were 500.000 men a piece.


So I think (and this is again a real-world comparison) that every unit is 'specialized' in some aspect of warfare (being artillery, recon, infantry, mechanised, etc...) but that those 'units/regiments' are combined into battle ready divisions (/corps/armies/...) and those are send to warzones.
Depending on which types of 'units/regiments' are part of the 'division' you can have 'Infantry' divisions (which contain at least infantry, artillery and recon) or 'Mechanised' divisions (which contain at least armour, artillery and recon) for example... Super heavies companies/batalions will be assigned to those 'high level' divisions/corps/...

So altough it is fantasy it is worth a comparison with real-life examples regarding organization of units.


This is all in a perfect world... So I think it is entirely possible for 10 AA regiments to arrive at a planet without any form of support in the imperium... the wheels of the munitorum grind slowly :D

I know that some fluff does have those kinds of enormous numbers for a regiment, (e.g. the previous IG codex said that the Cadian 8th was some 8,000 men) I just don't buy them myself. It means that a regiment would have an absolutely stupid number of companies (i.e. hundreds) with only one (or relatively few) higher-ranked officer and that seems impossibly unwieldy, even by the standards of the Imperium.

I see regiments being an absolute maximum (at least most of the time) of, say 20 companies, with a company being 110 men, 10 vehicles or 3 super heavies. And typically say 8 to 12 companies. Obviously, some regiments would have non-standard sized companies/non-standard numbers of companies, but I hope that's rare.

And as for using the concept of Divisions/Corps/Armies/whatever in 40K, as much sense as that would make, the fluff argues pretty strongly against that.

The fluff for the IG in the Apocalypse book does pretty much say that a world sends out a distress signal, and then regiments arrive pretty much at random (if you're lucky you get something like a balanced force) and command goes to either the most senior regimental commander, or, if what amounts to general staff (i.e. a cadre of officers that don't belong to a regiment, but specialise in strategic command) are present, to them.

This does however mean that a serious warzone would need A LOT of regiments (hundreds or even thousands) to have a significant number of boots on the ground. Let alone the kind of multi-system wars that crop up in the fluff from time to time.

I think ultimately, though, that this is one of the things where GW has provided two separate and (largely) mutually exclusive answers in different places. So I guess you can use whatever answer you want.

[Eberk]

I'm wondering what tanks you're referring to here. If you mean the King Tiger and/or Jagdtiger, my understanding is that these were incorporated in to, say, the SS Panzer divisions as Heavy Tank companies.
The heavy tanks (Tiger I, I think, not really into all those different types) were organised in their own abteilungen/batalions and these were assigned at division/corps level units to deploy here needed the most. They weren't assigned to regiments. Google for sPzAbt. 501 (and 502, etc...) for more info...

That's how I think that the Super heavy tanks are used in 40K.

But 40K wouldn't be 40K if there weren't examples of Baneblades assigned to Infantry regiments or even entire super heavy regiments :D


And as for using the concept of Divisions/Corps/Armies/whatever in 40K, as much sense as that would make, the fluff argues pretty strongly against that.

The fluff for the IG in the Apocalypse book does pretty much say that a world sends out a distress signal, and then regiments arrive pretty much at random (if you're lucky you get something like a balanced force) and command goes to either the most senior regimental commander, or, if what amounts to general staff (i.e. a cadre of officers that don't belong to a regiment, but specialise in strategic command) are present, to them.

But then again, in the IA book 5 the Krieg regiments were specifically raised to send to Vrakks and those weren organised in corps (if my memory serves me well there were even different types of regiments being raised)


So, everybody does what he thinks is best or suits him best. That's the best part of the 40K fluff :D