Changing who is closest in CC

[Tepogue]

Ok, here's the situation.

5 CSM VS 5 bases of Scarabs.

They are in close combat with each other.

1st round CSM do badly and inflict 2 wounds on 1 base.

No one runs away, both units still in combat.

Next round

Can the Necron player change who is closest? ( he will be choosing a new unwounded base of scarabs who are in base contact)

I don't see a reason why the necron player cannot change each round, which model ( in base contact) will count as closest.

Say for arguments sake, in he second round
the CSm inflict 4 wounds ( I assume Scarb swarms have 3 wounds each)

The necron player if he chose an unwounded base, failed all 3 saves, would remove 1 base, then the 1 remaining wound can be allocated to any other base in contact, thereby not assiging the last wound to the base with only 1 wound remaining.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

You can't move out of base contact, you're in combat.

[Tepogue]

I never said anyone moved, all models are still in combat, all models are in base contact with at least 1 member of the opposing squad.

Per page 25 the owner of the models in a CC situation determines who is closest and starts allocating wounds. Is this choice made each round of close combat?

Maybe I need to make myself more clear.

1st round of combat

Scarab Swarm A takes 2 wounds.

2nd Round of combat ( different players turn)

CSM will inflict 2 more wounds,
Do these wounds have to be allocated to Scarab Swarm A or since this is a new round of Close combat, can the Necron player declare Scarab Swarm B to now be the new closest model and get the 2 wounds appled to it instead of to Scarab Swarm A?

[Kevlarshark]

How do you propose you change who is closest?
The only chance to move guys around once they are in an assault is by making a Pile in move which must be towards the enemy. So the other scarabs can get closer, but the original base cannot get further away.

But in the case of multi wound non-character models in assault

"Once a model has had a wound allocated to it you must continue to allocate wounds to it until either it is removed as a casualty or the wound pool is empty".
P 25 Allocating wounds

So it seems you have to kill off whole models as much as possible.

[Nachodragon]

Just to play devil's advocate, that states until wound pool is empty, so the next round of combat could have a different model have wounds allocated to it. If everything is in B2B and everything else is the same, then there is no 'closest' model, per se. Seems like a loop hole that GW didnt think people would use. I hope there is another rule that has been over looked, but i doubt it.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

A model cannot disengage from combat unless it has the Hit and Run USR, similarly you must get as many models in combat as possible.

I'd say that this is pretty straight forward, you can't go around cycling combat.

[Nachodragon]

Yes, but in CC with everything in B2B nothing is 'closest'. And if all wounds are equal, i can decide to start with a different model in B2B every round. Poorly worded rule. No where else does it say if a model has a wound do you have to 'remove whole models when applicable'. That would cut down on some LoS shenanigans too. Once the wound pool is empty, the next round of combat can be allocated to another model.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I wish I had a digital rulebook in my brain, I could quote the exact reference numbers and everything.

[Tepogue]

I was going for player turns

Necron player turn

Scarab A suffers 2 wounds

Chaos player turn

Can the Necron player change (or select a new model) who is now considered closest? for example scarab swarm B

No movement occurs, no one breaks from combat.

all models are still in combat, all models are in base contact with at least 1 member of the opposing squad.


I had not even considered between various initative levels.

[JMichael]

Amazed how many people didn't assume that more than 1 base of Scarabs would be in base contact.

Rulebook p25 (Assault Phase->Allocating Wounds)
You allocate wounds at each Initiative step to the closest model being attacked by someone at that Initiative Step. When more than 1 model are closest (like in B2B contact), then the player who owns the models being attacked chooses which model the wounds are allocated to.

So not only can the Necron player choose to put wounds on a different model next turn, but he can even do it at different Initiative Steps .

Even under shooting, when determining the closest model-that model is only closest until it dies or that attack is over.

[Kevlarshark]

As Nachodragon says the Rule book does not state that once you have allocated wounds in one phase they have to be allocated to the same model the next.

Wounds must first be allocated to base to base contact models -Allocating wounds p 25.

Where there is a choice (more than one model in B2B with the attacker) then the controlling player decides who take the wound, but until the wound pool is empty (or he dies) you must continue to assign wounds to that model. (Paraphrased from p25)

In theory you could use this to spread the wounds around your multi-wound unit over successive combat phases.

But you would need -
1. Every model in your unit to be in base to base with every single guy in the attackers unit, so you can decide who gets hit.
and
2. The attackers to inflict less than 3 wounds every turn.
3. The defenders not to break.
4. The defenders not to actually win the combat.

Congratulations I think you have found a way to tie up two very small weak combat units in CC for ever under a very strict set of circumstances.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

But you must roll saves on that model until it dies, then the remaining wounds are allocated until the pool is gone.

[Archon Charybdis]

But you must roll saves on that model until it dies, then the remaining wounds are allocated until the pool is gone.

Precisely. If there is a partially wounded model left at the end of the Fight sub-phase when the pool has been depleted, there's currently nothing preventing you from designating a different model as "closest" next round of combat. Similarly with models wounded from shooting, there's nothing requiring an already wounded model to be allocated too first--the Scarab base with one wound left can wait till after his unwounded compatriots that are also in B2B die before he has to lose his last wound.

[Tepogue]

But you must roll saves on that model until it dies, then the remaining wounds are allocated until the pool is gone.

At each initative step this is correct.

No where is it stated that you must keep the same model selected when you change Initative steps.

As for applications, this applies anytime multiple wound models are fighting models which attack at different initative levels.

Off the top of my head, Necron Wraiths with Particle Whips, Tyranids with Lash Whips will pretty much always be attacked at multiple Initative Values ( models in Base contact at I1 and other engaged models at a higher Initative)

Any multiple wound models being attacked by Grey Knights with different I values

I realize this will not apply to most of the Space Marine players since they don't usually have swarms, multuiple wound models (outside of the HQ slot) or much in the way outside of Power fists of weapons that attack at different I values, BUT some of the Xenos may benefit from this.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I should have elaborated further on that point I concur, but that is exactly how it is written in the rulebook, why did the question need to be asked if you could read the answer in the book...? I was making a different point entirely based on the wording of the question.

[Sainhann]

Amazed how many people didn't assume that more than 1 base of Scarabs would be in base contact.

Rulebook p25 (Assault Phase->Allocating Wounds)
You allocate wounds at each Initiative step to the closest model being attacked by someone at that Initiative Step. When more than 1 model are closest (like in B2B contact), then the player who owns the models being attacked chooses which model the wounds are allocated to.

So not only can the Necron player choose to put wounds on a different model next turn, but he can even do it at different Initiative Steps .

Even under shooting, when determining the closest model-that model is only closest until it dies or that attack is over.

Correct, as I see it in the first round one base of Scarabs takes the two wounds. In the next round if the Chaos Marines only cause another two wounds those can be allocated to another base of Scarabs.

So this could mean that after several rounds of fighting in where the Chaos Marines only do 1-2 wounds per round there could be 5 bases of Scarabs still remaining though all with two wounds.

This is where your characters come in since they can put the hits they cause directly onto that base of Scarabs that has the two wounds.