Tooled up Vetran Assault Marines - Worth it?

[Myu]

A squad of 5 vanguards with thunderhammer/ storm shield is 385 points. A squad of 10 is 760 (810 with melta bombs).The other wargear options are also crazy though not as much. Question is, is it actually worth it to run these squads? I've never tried it myself, but I'm iffy because of the cost.

Case in point, say you're running the 760 point option;

A squad of 10 (TEN!) assault terminators, plus a landraider is 650 points. This is 110 points LESS than the assault marines. Granted the vanguards get heroic intervention, frag and krark grenades and can move 12" as jump infantry, but... I'm not sure if they are worth it.

What do you guys all think? Anyone tried builds like these?

[Mr Mystery]

Why not ask your opponent if you can proxy for a couple of games?

[Rapture]

Think about how many turns there are in the game and what the likely impact of the squad in question will be. Basically, how many turns will they be involved in assaults?

It is one large squad that no one is likely to charge, so the answer is probably around 5 assaults. Can they make their points back in 5 turns of fighting? I suppose it depends.

If you combat squad them, then the units number of potential assault phases doubles. However, they can also be taken apart by your opponents dedicated assault units.

The biggest problem this unit will face is dice. There will be a few shots that make it through your 3+ save and each will cost you 76 (or 81) points. A 170 point tactical squad of rapid firing into this unit will cause about two casualties and a decent dent in your effectiveness. The invulnerable saves are convenient, but for such expensive models the hitting power isn't quite there when weighed against the drop in effectiveness resulting from each model lost.

[Image]

Simple answer: no.

The way to use Vanguard in vanilla marines, I think, is to take advantage of their Heroic Intervention in order to take on small-ish, shooty squads. With charge ranges being a bit further potentially, you don't need to be as concerned about landing in the sweet spot.

If you're looking for durability (considering the storm shields), consider that a librarian with Gate of Infinity in terminator armour joined by 10 Assault Terminators with SS/TH is about as mobile, if not more so, with a lot more durability. The points saved can even buy you a tac squad who have as much durability as the vanguard to small arms fire.

[DarkLink]

You can't fit 10 Terminators in a Land Raider of any type.

[Anggul]

There's really no way of justifying that many points spent on a squad which are still only T4 3+ armour. They'll die like regular marines and only take a squad or two with them. You can't even say 'they're worth all the firepower they'll draw', because the opponent won't actually have to fire a massive amount of their squads at them, and when they do blow them away, that will be a lot of your points down the drain.

EDIT: Ooh, 300... not sure why that's interesting.

[Yarlen Fireblade]

I use a couple dread drop pods with beacon turn one with a small Vanguard veteran squad to arrive hopefully turn 2 or three to assault almost anywhere if you space your drop pods well and take advantage of the 6 UM beacon.


My loadout is two LC/PF, 2 unequiped casualties and a Power Axe/SS sergeant. Equipment should be kept to the minimum necessary to achieve the goal you intend for the squad, as someone said before, not worth it to overload as it gets too expensive for what it does.


Ideally, you should plan ahead to assault something that lasts 2 assault turns, and relocate again on your own turn. If your vanguards are too killy, they´ll finish their objective and get shot at. And at 380 points it´s pretty difficult to get their worth before getting blown. Mine always die quick, but also always deliver if used carefully.

With vanguard vets you pay for the ability to assault practically anything with beacons or a bit of luck. You have to take advantage of that ability to kill sheltered, delicate or High Output enemies to better your battle prospect. They´re not to use as a point for point tool...

[DCompanyChris]

The key is models.

What you are proposing is to give each marine everything. That's not necessary.

The SGT should get a relic blade, and if you wish, a storm shield
Then have a couple of guys with powerfist/Storm Shield and/or Thunderhammer Storm Sheild
Then have some guys with CCW/ Storm Shields
Then have some guys with just CCW/BP

With pile ins working they way they do now, you can maximize your body to attack ratio. Send in the meat first, lead by the sarge.... let them get their 4 attacks at I4, then use them and the CCW/Storm Shield guys to absorb the first round of counter attacks, then send in the heavy hitters on cleanup duty. It takes a little practice to get them in there the right way, but once you do it, you'll see what I mean.

Ditto on the pod approach. The beacons bring you in tight, and for vanguard that is devastating. In addition to the pods, a sneaky way to do it is with scout bikes. Three scout bikes with grenade launchers and a beacon is super cheap, and you can get up close and personal with your assaults with the vets off the scout bike locators.

[Yarlen Fireblade]

The key is models.

What you are proposing is to give each marine everything. That's not necessary.

.

Completely agree, you need some fodder for snap shots, interceptor shots or just making sure the special weapon guys get to attack... If all vets are fully equipped, more points go down the drain.

[antennafarm]

also, even though they're 'assault marines,' they're still likely to get eaten up by harder assault units... heck, i had my harlequins wrecked death company face today in two turns (admittedly they had a doom/fortune farseer with them). don't charge them into dedicated assault units, put them into non-assault units... regular marines, guard squads, almost anything eldar, etc. they'd be a pretty good troop eater in general... a riot squad.

[Cpt Codpiece]

You can't fit 10 Terminators in a Land Raider of any type.

yes you can.
See. :) (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/s/Spartan.pdf)

[The AKH]

Completely agree, you need some fodder for snap shots, interceptor shots or just making sure the special weapon guys get to attack... If all vets are fully equipped, more points go down the drain.

+1 to this train of thought. If you treat the Vanguard Vets as a cookie cutter unit, they aren't worth the points at all. Their utility lies in the ability to mix and match powerful CC wargear, giving you different approaches to the general goal of separating the enemy from their limbs.

They are also better employed (at least unsupported) as a distraction/flank unit, rather than a deathstar like, say, Assault Terminators.

[Wolfshade]

yes you can.
See. :) (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/s/Spartan.pdf)

Technically correct, the best kind of correct. +1 :D

Massively expensive units can be awesome, I mean you can run a 30 man DC with Jpacks and Pweapons/fists that will go around munching everything in sight. The issue is, whether or not they will be effective which is very situational. If your opponet castle up, then you can ensure you are in combat each turn, if not then you can be left out in the open being "wasted". In a 7000 pt game a 700pt unit isn't that bad, in 1500 pt it's almost half your army, then again we have all seen how effective triple land raider lists were in small games as most opponets don't have enough fire power to get rid of 3 AV14 at low points