Info on One of the Two lost Primarches in the First Heretic

[Saint_Anger]

Hi All,

Just carefully read page 307-312 of the First Heretic, which explained 10 pods of the Primarch, probaly those of traitor legions, that scatterd throughout the galaxy. I says each of the pod belonged to each Primarch as follow:

1. Unknown
2. Fulgrim
3. Angron
4. Curze
5. Perturabo
6. Mortarion
7. Magnus
8. Horus
9. Lorgar
10. Alpharius & Omegon

Now about the first unknown pod, It surely belonged to one of the two lost Primarches. The only information that tells about this Primarch is that he has pale skin, fierce eye and black hair. And it also tells that the warriors that he will lead wear black armour.

[Denzark]

Not after Leman Russ finished with them they don't.

[Mr Mystery]

Raven Guard.

Nothing to see here, move along.

[Night System]

It's Lion el Johnson. The idea was that he was a primarch that the chaos gods wanted to convert but for whatever reason didn't manage it.

[Mr Mystery]

It's Lion el Johnson. The idea was that he was a primarch that the chaos gods wanted to convert but for whatever reason didn't manage it.

Nope, he's blonde.

[energongoodie]

Raven Guard.

Nothing to see here, move along.

+1

[Saint_Anger]

Raven Guard.

Nothing to see here, move along.

You probably don't read the First Heretic. The world for the first unknown pod was described as a temperate and forest world, while Deliverance, homeworld of Corax, was kind of barren and airless-rock planet. So Corvus Corax from Raven Guards is not certaintly in this pod.

[Wildeybeast]

Should this not be in the 40K background section?

[pgarfunkle]

I thought it was the lion too, didn't the Dark Angels all wear black armour at the time of the heresy?

[Mr Mystery]

I thought it was the lion too, didn't the Dark Angels all wear black armour at the time of the heresy?

Indeed. However the Lion is not pasty and black haired. Corax is.

[gendoikari87]

so it can't be the lion, because it doesn't match his description, and it can't be corax because it doesn't fit the worlds description. ... I know it's

Don Corleone!

[AnEnemy]

Fear to Tread basically puts the fate of the two Unknown Legions to bed. They didn't meet The Emperor's standards and were summarily eradicated.

Sanguinius speaks about the Red Thirst with Horus and admits that he fears that the Emperor will destroy the Angels too if he finds out.

[Wildeybeast]

Fear to Tread basically puts the fate of the two Unknown Legions to bed. They didn't meet The Emperor's standards and were summarily eradicated.

Sanguinius speaks about the Red Thirst with Horus and admits that he fears that the Emperor will destroy the Angels too if he finds out.

Haven't read that one, but how does this fit with the fact from First Heretic that the Ultramarines get a sudden increase in numbers when the two legions 'disappear'? That would suggest they weren't all destroyed and if they are good enough for the Ultramarines then why destroy them in the first place? I don't want to contradict you having not read it, but I'd be surprised it they put such a clear cut conclusion to them in there.

[AnEnemy]

Doesn't necessarily mean they were killed to the last Legionnaire. PH UM numbers were...hmm...can't quite remember. Somewhere between 250K to 300K I believe. Now, even if you ignore the fact that Guilliman had a tiny empire that he recruited from, that doesn't account for two Legions suddenly painting their armor blue.

A Legion was normally around 100-125K...so obviously not all the of the two unnamed Legions were absorbed.

Pure conjecture:
The UMs absorbed the Terran born Legionnaires(who, in time, fell to attrition hence no characters in the novels) and all the marines recruited from the worlds that harbored the two Primarchs were slaughtered by Russ and the Wolves.

They've left hints in almost every one of the HH novels about the two unnamed Legions. From what I've read...it's a good bet that they were destroyed early to mid Great Crusade era on The Emperor's orders.

Why he did it is still a mystery. As I said, Sanguinius hints that it was due to a flaw in their geneseed, but it'd have to be a pretty massive flaw considering The Emperor let the Thousand Sons have a pass when they started mutating. Although, maybe that had something to do with him needing Magnus to occupy the Golden Throne for all of eternity. ;)

Which opens up another interesting discussion...which Primarchs were above reproach due to playing integral parts in the Emperor's grand scheme? I'd say, off the top of my head, the main three are; Horus, Magnus, and Russ.

Horus was to be his Warmaster. General of the Armies of Mankind. Magnus was meant to occupy the Golden Throne and maintain the Beacon and possibly Man's webway. Russ was meant to kill anyone that didn't play along.

The others seem, to me at least, to play lesser roles more suited to their personalities. Dorn was the builder. Perturabo was the breaker. Guilliman the statesman. etc etc etc

Then you have some Primarchs that either; never realized their potential or didn't seem to have any to begin with. Like Curze or Angron.

[lattd]

Maybe Angron was meant to be what Russ became but because Angron was a bit unstable, Russ was deemed a better choice?

[AnEnemy]

Could be. It does seem like the Emperor built a bit of redundancy into his sons. Which would have definitely been wise considering he didn't have the resources, or the will, to make other Primarchs.

[Saint_Anger]

Why he did it is still a mystery. As I said, Sanguinius hints that it was due to a flaw in their geneseed, but it'd have to be a pretty massive flaw considering The Emperor let the Thousand Sons have a pass when they started mutating. Although, maybe that had something to do with him needing Magnus to occupy the Golden Throne for all of eternity. ;)

IMO, the Emperor didn’t let the Thousand Sons a pass, not yet. If he, and maybe also Magnus, knew the existence of Chaos Daemons, he surely understood that psychic power always came with pestilence of Daemon (In the case of Thousand Sons, the flesh change to Chaos Spawn). There’s nothing he could with it. If Magnus finally was placed on the Golden Throne, no one gonna looked after this Legion and they would slowly mutate without stop(Be noted that it was Magnus who dealt with Tzeentch to stop the Flesh Change, but Tzeentch just postponed it). Then the Emperor would order someone to destroy the Thousand Sons anyway.
This also applies to Russ and the Space Wolves. The Wulfen is the note of flaw in their gene-seeds, but fortunately it is far more controlable than those of the Thosand Sons. If the Emperor see anything of his error become far more than his control, he would destroy it without a second thought. The Emperor is the conqueror, inventor but not a wise ruler. That’s why comes the Horus Heresy.

[AnEnemy]

The Emperor knew about the Thousand Sons' mutations because they started before he'd found Magnus on Prospero. He also knew that they were psykers and he trained Magnus himself.

Don't forget, the Emperor helped found the Librarius Program. He approved of psyker trained marines. He just didn't like how far Magnus and the 1K Sons took it.

[Saint_Anger]

He just didn't like how far Magnus and the 1K Sons took it.

How far?

[AnEnemy]

How far?

Over 9000.

[Denzark]

I don't buy the 2 legions being subsumed, only destroyed totally. Because the entire HH is a tale of disobedience. Lorgar and worship. Magnus and Psychics. To survive Signum in FEAR TO TREAD a librarian is used. Horus himself.

There is therefore, to me, no credible way in which the only taboo not broken is that of merely talking about the 2 lost legions.

[Wildeybeast]

Doesn't necessarily mean they were killed to the last Legionnaire. PH UM numbers were...hmm...can't quite remember. Somewhere between 250K to 300K I believe. Now, even if you ignore the fact that Guilliman had a tiny empire that he recruited from, that doesn't account for two Legions suddenly painting their armor blue.

A Legion was normally around 100-125K...so obviously not all the of the two unnamed Legions were absorbed.

Pure conjecture:
The UMs absorbed the Terran born Legionnaires(who, in time, fell to attrition hence no characters in the novels) and all the marines recruited from the worlds that harbored the two Primarchs were slaughtered by Russ and the Wolves.

They've left hints in almost every one of the HH novels about the two unnamed Legions. From what I've read...it's a good bet that they were destroyed early to mid Great Crusade era on The Emperor's orders.

Why he did it is still a mystery. As I said, Sanguinius hints that it was due to a flaw in their geneseed, but it'd have to be a pretty massive flaw considering The Emperor let the Thousand Sons have a pass when they started mutating. Although, maybe that had something to do with him needing Magnus to occupy the Golden Throne for all of eternity. ;)

Which opens up another interesting discussion...which Primarchs were above reproach due to playing integral parts in the Emperor's grand scheme? I'd say, off the top of my head, the main three are; Horus, Magnus, and Russ.

Horus was to be his Warmaster. General of the Armies of Mankind. Magnus was meant to occupy the Golden Throne and maintain the Beacon and possibly Man's webway. Russ was meant to kill anyone that didn't play along.

The others seem, to me at least, to play lesser roles more suited to their personalities. Dorn was the builder. Perturabo was the breaker. Guilliman the statesman. etc etc etc

Then you have some Primarchs that either; never realized their potential or didn't seem to have any to begin with. Like Curze or Angron.


I wouldn't be so certain that they were destroyed. Dorn speaks about them in one of the books in an almost wistful way, wishing they were here. The way Malcador cautions him against this suggests not that such a thing is impossible (because they are dead) but that he shouldn't think like that. It's possible they are exiled for example. Also, Dorn's regret at their absence and the fact that Lorgar was clearly upset by what happened to them means the Primarchs didn't all agree on it, so I doubt they committed a crime so terrible that it warranted outright destruction and if there was geneseed flaw, it would affect all of them and would make them suitable for adoption by other legions (especially the Ultramarines who have the most stable geneseed). Also, Dorn is thinking they would be on his side, which would imply they hadn't rebelled against the Emperor (though could have disobeyed him in a similar way to Magnus)

As to the despensibility of the Primarchs, they are all vital to his plan but none are indispensable. The appointment of Horus infuriates some of the others and the Lion is already angling for the role of Warmaster at the end of the second DA book, before the Heresy has even really got going, so clearly there are other suitable canditates (Sanguinius, Gulliman or Dorn spring to mind). Secondly Russ isn't meant to destroy other legions, he's meant to destroy enemies. The Emperor sends him to bring Magnus back to Terra, Horus manipulates the orders to kill him and destroy his legion (though why the Emperor wouldn't pick someone more diplomatic baffles me). Thirdly, none of the others play 'lesser' roles. Corax and Alpharius know that their stealth and subterfuge are not valued (or even trusted) by most of the other primarchs, but they don't care as the Emperor needs their skills (and tells them as much). Vulkan is told by the Emperor that his role is to placate his brothers, temper their personalities and unite them all. All 3 are happy to play the lesser lights to their more grandstanding brothers. Furthermore, the Emperor cares deeply for his lesser sons. He 'visits' Vulkan when he needs him in Promethean Son, he refuses to speak to Dorn yet temporarily leaves his work on the Golden Throne to help Corax rebuild the Raven Guard after Istvaan.

I agree with your point about some not achieving their potential to an extent. I'm not really sure what the Emperor intended for Curze so it is hard to say. Corax believes he is the opposite of the same coin to Curze and Curze is simply him without the correct upbringing. Angron achieves his full potential as a killing machine when he embraces rebellion, likewise Lorgar.

[edger1]

Pale skin black hair fierce eyes,Just a thought could the lost legion and primarchs be anything to do with the Legion of the Damned.

[Denzark]

No the LoD are the Firehawks chapter, way aways from 1st founding.

[Maelstorm]

In the Necron Codex, page 58, under the Heading Trazyn the Infinite - Archeovist of the Solemnace Galleries: The First paragraph describes a few of the contents of the vast and numberless vaults burrowed through the tomb word to contain "a giant of a man clad in baroque power armour, his face contorted in a permanent scream" -

- Perhaps a "missing" Primarch?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Doubt much will come of that one - it kinda screams "generic enough to not be a Primarch (most ornate Power Armour is baroque, and all Space Marines are giant), but similar enough to start off conspiracy theories".

The fates of the missing two seem to have occurred during the Great Crusades - wouldn't Trazyn still be asleep then?

[Saint_Anger]

In the Necron Codex, page 58, under the Heading Trazyn the Infinite - Archeovist of the Solemnace Galleries: The First paragraph describes a few of the contents of the vast and numberless vaults burrowed through the tomb word to contain "a giant of a man clad in baroque power armour, his face contorted in a permanent scream" -

- Perhaps a "missing" Primarch?

One of many possibilities I think it is. There are also many arguments about this baroque power armour held by Trazyn. It could be from the unknown Primarch, dead Primarch or even mere giant Astarte. The argument will never end. We also never know when Trazyn awaked. That can cut out some possibilities though.

[MarneusCalgar]

The lost primarchs aren´t in Trazyn´s Galleries...

They both perished under the purge of Leman Russ and his Space Wolves...

Only his return could solve this enygma and reveal the truth

[Wildeybeast]

Not the Trayzan thing again, please no. There was long, exhaustive and ultimately pointless thread on this down in the Background forum (which again is where this should be - looking at you TDA!) so let's not revisit that again.

[Lunar Camel]

I think "Blood Ravens" is the correct answer.
For those who have played "Dawn of War II", this description of the Blood Ravens pops up:

The Blood Ravens are a chapter of Space Marines that are based in the Imperium's eastern frontier. Like all Space Marines, the Blood Ravens are genetically-modified warriors with superhuman endurance, reflexes and mental capacity. Their power armor allows them to shrug off punishment that would destroy most tanks.

The Blood Ravens are unique because they have lost all knowledge of their origins. Their records only date back to the Great Civil War that almost destroyed the Imperium millennia ago. They do not even recall their founder, and simply refer to him as "The Unknown Primarch".

The Blood Ravens also have an unusual number of Psykers, causing some to accuse them of having the taint of mutation, and corrupted implants.

[Saint_Anger]

I think "Blood Ravens" is the correct answer.
For those who have played "Dawn of War II", this description of the Blood Ravens pops up:

The Blood Ravens are a chapter of Space Marines that are based in the Imperium's eastern frontier. Like all Space Marines, the Blood Ravens are genetically-modified warriors with superhuman endurance, reflexes and mental capacity. Their power armor allows them to shrug off punishment that would destroy most tanks.

The Blood Ravens are unique because they have lost all knowledge of their origins. Their records only date back to the Great Civil War that almost destroyed the Imperium millennia ago. They do not even recall their founder, and simply refer to him as "The Unknown Primarch".

The Blood Ravens also have an unusual number of Psykers, causing some to accuse them of having the taint of mutation, and corrupted implants.

I have to disagree with you, and I’m sure many will too. There are many theories, which are very convincing, stating that the Blood Ravens are the descendant of the Thousand Sons Legion. The Blood Ravens maintain lots of psyker as same as the Thousand Sons. Google for Revuel Arvida and you will find some interesting connection to the Thousand Sons. If you also play Dawn of War: Ascension, you will know it that Blood Ravens is so similar to the Thousand Sons.

[Denzark]

Absolutely no way that the Inquisition would allow a 1kSons successor chapter to stand. Not with Magnus gene imprint on board. Neither do I think that Ahriman nor Magnus would let them stay imp.

A higher level of psykers for me, would be more likely to point to increased incidences in BR recruiting grounds - not the geneseed which is heavily sampled and tithed.

What happens to chapters who don't comply with this? See Badab War to find out.

[Wildeybeast]

Absolutely no way that the Inquisition would allow a 1kSons successor chapter to stand. Not with Magnus gene imprint on board. Neither do I think that Ahriman nor Magnus would let them stay imp.

A higher level of psykers for me, would be more likely to point to increased incidences in BR recruiting grounds - not the geneseed which is heavily sampled and tithed.

What happens to chapters who don't comply with this? See Badab War to find out.

Agree, The Thousand Sons are all psychic because they come from a planet of psykers, not because of the geneseed which merely amplifies inherent abilities.

[Learn2Eel]

Absolutely no way that the Inquisition would allow a 1kSons successor chapter to stand. Not with Magnus gene imprint on board. Neither do I think that Ahriman nor Magnus would let them stay imp.

A higher level of psykers for me, would be more likely to point to increased incidences in BR recruiting grounds - not the geneseed which is heavily sampled and tithed.

What happens to chapters who don't comply with this? See Badab War to find out.

I've played all of the Dawn of War games and Inquisitor Toth in the first game from memory implies that the Blood Ravens are watched very closely by the Inquisition because of their high level of psykers. The only Blood Raven that is confirmed to know their origins is Davian Thule, after finding secret relics on Kronus. In Dawn of War 2 this is referenced as having greatly troubled him; Thule refused to speak of it. Also the highest ranking Blood Ravens know, but are never mentioned otherwise.
Remember also that Cyrene, a Blood Ravens world, suffered Exterminatus due to a heretic uprising (IIRC). Thule, when he becomes a Dreadnought, mentions this and says "the secrets of Cyrene will not pass my lips" or something similar. That seems to me like the Inquisition either doesn't know about the Blood Ravens origins - remember that a group of Thousand Sons arrived on Prospero after the Burning - or they suspect it but don't have compelling proof.

In Chaos Rising, the way the Chaos characters interact with the Blood Ravens is also important to note; they often call the Blood Ravens 'brothers', though it must be noted the Chaos Space Marines in Dawn of War 2 are of the Black Legion. The ending of Chaos Rising and throughout Retribution show that Abaddon has a great interest in the Blood Ravens. It is heavily implied in each game that the Blood Ravens have a dark past that cannot be revealed for the chapter's sake, in fact I think in the text-crawl before some missions it states that explicitly.

IMO it is pretty obvious the Blood Ravens are descendant from a heretic legion or there is something sinister about their origins. It makes perfect sense for the Thousand Sons to be their progenitors; the hints are far too many and compelling to ignore. They have an unusually high number of psykers in their chapter, something that Toth mentions in a negative light. As far as Magnus and Ahriman go, you have to consider the god that they serve. Ahriman raids planets searching for knowledge; in the Grey Knights codex, at the end of the story Ahriman is involved in, it mentions that Ahriman took knowledge that would later help him bring the Imperium to its knees. For all we know, he could be gathering information that would expose several chapters for their heretic roots and dark secrets. Magnus obviously is a different case, however, it could be that Tzeentch's schemes involve the Blood Ravens in a darker plot. I'm actually reading up on this as I go lol. It actually makes sense because if Magnus reveals them, all of the Blood Ravens will be hunted down. Magnus loves his children too much to let that happen.

Ultimately, I guess it is all moot until Relic decides to reveal all.
Also, as a side note, have you ever heard of another chapter where the Chief Librarian is also the Chapter Master? I don't think there are many.....

[Learn2Eel]

Agree, The Thousand Sons are all psychic because they come from a planet of psykers, not because of the geneseed which merely amplifies inherent abilities.

One thing that I've always wondered is if there are any recordings of Blood Raven psykers mutating. If there isn't, that's probably a sign that they aren't Thousand Sons, although I've seen people mention that the Flesh Change was brought on by Tzeentch?

Still.....that quote from A Thousand Sons (or was it Prospero Burns?) where the seer speaks about "blood" and a "raven" is very important to remember. Red and white also happen to be their pre-heresy colours, the current colours of the Blood Ravens.
Also, Blood Ravens seek knowledge and pride themselves on their many gathered relics and libraries.

[Denzark]

Haven't heard of many Commissars becoming Colonels but there is always an exception that proves the rule!

Is there any fluff (ie codex astartes quotes) that the Librarian route and the Chapter Command route is mutually exclusive?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

One thing that I've always wondered is if there are any recordings of Blood Raven psykers mutating. If there isn't, that's probably a sign that they aren't Thousand Sons.

Still.....that quote from A Thousand Sons (or was it Prospero Burns?) where the seer speaks about "blood" and a "raven" is very important to remember. Red and white also happen to be their pre-heresy colours, the current colours of the Blood Ravens.

Psssssssssssst....

It was a short story...

[Learn2Eel]

Sorry Denzark, that went over my head lol. I'm tired haha.

Oh, sorry didn't realize TDA. I've read about them, not read through them.
Here's the quote;

"It's too late... the Wolf is at the door and it hungers for blood. Oh, Throne... no, the blood! The Ravens, I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!"

[Wildeybeast]

One thing that I've always wondered is if there are any recordings of Blood Raven psykers mutating. If there isn't, that's probably a sign that they aren't Thousand Sons, although I've seen people mention that the Flesh Change was brought on by Tzeentch?

Still.....that quote from A Thousand Sons (or was it Prospero Burns?) where the seer speaks about "blood" and a "raven" is very important to remember. Red and white also happen to be their pre-heresy colours, the current colours of the Blood Ravens.
Also, Blood Ravens seek knowledge and pride themselves on their many gathered relics and libraries.

Yeah, I'm fairly sure Magnus permanently fixed the geneseed, but living in the warp kind of did for that plan.

[Saint_Anger]

Could we stop this Blood Raven thing? I think it has little evidence leading to the two unknown Primarchs.

[DarkDesigner]

I wouldn't be so certain that they were destroyed. Dorn speaks about them in one of the books in an almost wistful way, wishing they were here. The way Malcador cautions him against this suggests not that such a thing is impossible (because they are dead) but that he shouldn't think like that. It's possible they are exiled for example. Also, Dorn's regret at their absence and the fact that Lorgar was clearly upset by what happened to them means the Primarchs didn't all agree on it, so I doubt they committed a crime so terrible that it warranted outright destruction and if there was geneseed flaw, it would affect all of them and would make them suitable for adoption by other legions (especially the Ultramarines who have the most stable geneseed). Also, Dorn is thinking they would be on his side, which would imply they hadn't rebelled against the Emperor (though could have disobeyed him in a similar way to Magnus)

As to the despensibility of the Primarchs, they are all vital to his plan but none are indispensable. The appointment of Horus infuriates some of the others and the Lion is already angling for the role of Warmaster at the end of the second DA book, before the Heresy has even really got going, so clearly there are other suitable canditates (Sanguinius, Gulliman or Dorn spring to mind). Secondly Russ isn't meant to destroy other legions, he's meant to destroy enemies. The Emperor sends him to bring Magnus back to Terra, Horus manipulates the orders to kill him and destroy his legion (though why the Emperor wouldn't pick someone more diplomatic baffles me). Thirdly, none of the others play 'lesser' roles. Corax and Alpharius know that their stealth and subterfuge are not valued (or even trusted) by most of the other primarchs, but they don't care as the Emperor needs their skills (and tells them as much). Vulkan is told by the Emperor that his role is to placate his brothers, temper their personalities and unite them all. All 3 are happy to play the lesser lights to their more grandstanding brothers. Furthermore, the Emperor cares deeply for his lesser sons. He 'visits' Vulkan when he needs him in Promethean Son, he refuses to speak to Dorn yet temporarily leaves his work on the Golden Throne to help Corax rebuild the Raven Guard after Istvaan.

I agree with your point about some not achieving their potential to an extent. I'm not really sure what the Emperor intended for Curze so it is hard to say. Corax believes he is the opposite of the same coin to Curze and Curze is simply him without the correct upbringing. Angron achieves his full potential as a killing machine when he embraces rebellion, likewise Lorgar.

Ok then, let's get this thread back on topic. I'm not going to claim to be an authority on the subject, but I would like to back up what Wildeybeast says here.

Before I get into anything else, the reason Russ is sent to bring Magnus in could be as simple as he was the only one close enough to do it. That is why the 7 legions who are sent to Isstvaan to bring Horus in are called on, and we all know that Horus manipulated that, so it's probably Horus again making sure that the one legion available to take down Magnus is the one that hates him the most. And in Thousand Sons I think it was Russ himself who laments about about the Vlka Fenryka being the legion who have to undertake the tasks that no other legion wants to dirty themselves with. Excuse the pun, but they're the Emperor's dogsbodies.

I'm just reading Know No Fear at the moment, and right at the beginning one of the Ultramarines is musing about the 'candidates' for Warmaster. He discounts all the Primarchs except the four you mentioned, but then dispenses with Sanguinius for being too 'ethereal' and Dorn too 'draconian'. But this exchange got me thinking.

Tactically, most of the primarchs have a brother who favours similar tactics. Dorn to Perturabo, Corax to Curze, Horus to Guilliman. It has already been mentioned that the Emperor built a bit of leeway into his plans, but also in some of the HH novels it is said that he encourages their sibling rivalry. So perhaps his plan was always to have two candidates for each role, and to have his sons compete for the honour. So Guilliman could have been Warmaster, except for something that happened as they matured which made Horus a more suitable candidate.

Originally I had thought that the split occured right down the middle with each loyalist legion having a traitor opposite, but then earlier on on the thread Night System mentioned this:


It's Lion el Johnson. The idea was that he was a primarch that the chaos gods wanted to convert but for whatever reason didn't manage it.

So, I have revised my list, which I might place as follows:

Lion El Jonson - Kor'sarro Khan
Fulgrim - Sanguinius
Perturabo - Rogal Dorn
Leman Russ - Angron
Konrad Curze - Corvus Corax
Ferrus Manus - Mortarion (maybe?)
Roboute Guilliman - Horus Lupercal

That only leaves 4 Primarchs: Magnus the Red, Vulkan, Lorgar Aurelian and Alpharius. Of the four I know least about the Salamanders and the Word Bearers, but then I would not say either of them share much at all with either the Alpha Legion nor the Thousand Sons. Above Wildeybeast did mention that Vulkan was meant as a calming influence on his brothers, so perhaps Lorgar's role was to incite them? Which leaves Magnus and Alpharius still unpaired.

SO my proposition is this (sorry about the massive build up). The two lost primarchs were meant to be the rivals of Magnus and Alpharius. One of these is known as the Forgotten and one as the Purged. Perhaps the Forgotten was a rival to Alpharius, while the Purged suffered greater changes than even the Thousand Sons, which is why Magnus became so important to the Emperor's eventual scheme?

I'll leave it there for now so you can all get on with your lives, and leave my humble thoughts to my peers for your discussion.

[Wildeybeast]

Ok then, let's get this thread back on topic. I'm not going to claim to be an authority on the subject, but I would like to back up what Wildeybeast says here.

Before I get into anything else, the reason Russ is sent to bring Magnus in could be as simple as he was the only one close enough to do it. That is why the 7 legions who are sent to Isstvaan to bring Horus in are called on, and we all know that Horus manipulated that, so it's probably Horus again making sure that the one legion available to take down Magnus is the one that hates him the most. And in Thousand Sons I think it was Russ himself who laments about about the Vlka Fenryka being the legion who have to undertake the tasks that no other legion wants to dirty themselves with. Excuse the pun, but they're the Emperor's dogsbodies.

I'm just reading Know No Fear at the moment, and right at the beginning one of the Ultramarines is musing about the 'candidates' for Warmaster. He discounts all the Primarchs except the four you mentioned, but then dispenses with Sanguinius for being too 'ethereal' and Dorn too 'draconian'. But this exchange got me thinking.

Tactically, most of the primarchs have a brother who favours similar tactics. Dorn to Perturabo, Corax to Curze, Horus to Guilliman. It has already been mentioned that the Emperor built a bit of leeway into his plans, but also in some of the HH novels it is said that he encourages their sibling rivalry. So perhaps his plan was always to have two candidates for each role, and to have his sons compete for the honour. So Guilliman could have been Warmaster, except for something that happened as they matured which made Horus a more suitable candidate.

Originally I had thought that the split occured right down the middle with each loyalist legion having a traitor opposite, but then earlier on on the thread Night System mentioned this:



So, I have revised my list, which I might place as follows:

Lion El Jonson - Kor'sarro Khan
Fulgrim - Sanguinius
Perturabo - Rogal Dorn
Leman Russ - Angron
Konrad Curze - Corvus Corax
Ferrus Manus - Mortarion (maybe?)
Roboute Guilliman - Horus Lupercal

That only leaves 4 Primarchs: Magnus the Red, Vulkan, Lorgar Aurelian and Alpharius. Of the four I know least about the Salamanders and the Word Bearers, but then I would not say either of them share much at all with either the Alpha Legion nor the Thousand Sons. Above Wildeybeast did mention that Vulkan was meant as a calming influence on his brothers, so perhaps Lorgar's role was to incite them? Which leaves Magnus and Alpharius still unpaired.

SO my proposition is this (sorry about the massive build up). The two lost primarchs were meant to be the rivals of Magnus and Alpharius. One of these is known as the Forgotten and one as the Purged. Perhaps the Forgotten was a rival to Alpharius, while the Purged suffered greater changes than even the Thousand Sons, which is why Magnus became so important to the Emperor's eventual scheme?

I'll leave it there for now so you can all get on with your lives, and leave my humble thoughts to my peers for your discussion.

I agree with a lot of your points here. The Ultramarines would have been the sensible choice to send to bring in Magnus, but Horus had sent them to the arse end of nowhere and Dorn was stuck on Terra.

As to Gulliman as Warmaster, I think he was meant for another role. In the ideal world, when the galaxy is pacified and totally under human control, there is little need for most of the Primarchs as they basically weapons of war. Gulliman is different. He builds perfect worlds, exemplars of human civilisation. He is the Emperor's peace time successor, the idealist who can be left in charge of the Imperium and take mankind into a new golden age. Horus conquerors, but Gulliman was meant to rule.

The pairing idea has some merit, but you could draw up other pairings beyond those you have done. Fulgrim and Ferrus are both craftsmen, as is Vulkan. The Salamanders are all about endurance (hammer and anvil) as are Death Guard. White Scars and RG are both speed merchants. RG and BA both favour sudden death from above strikes.

[DarkDesigner]

I agree with a lot of your points here. The Ultramarines would have been the sensible choice to send to bring in Magnus, but Horus had sent them to the arse end of nowhere and Dorn was stuck on Terra.

As to Gulliman as Warmaster, I think he was meant for another role. In the ideal world, when the galaxy is pacified and totally under human control, there is little need for most of the Primarchs as they basically weapons of war. Gulliman is different. He builds perfect worlds, exemplars of human civilisation. He is the Emperor's peace time successor, the idealist who can be left in charge of the Imperium and take mankind into a new golden age. Horus conquerors, but Gulliman was meant to rule.

The pairing idea has some merit, but you could draw up other pairings beyond those you have done. Fulgrim and Ferrus are both craftsmen, as is Vulkan. The Salamanders are all about endurance (hammer and anvil) as are Death Guard. White Scars and RG are both speed merchants. RG and BA both favour sudden death from above strikes.

Hmmm you're right... perhaps this calls for a venn diagram...

I know it's not perfect and there are nuances and overlapping relationships and rivalries. Certainly Ferrus and Fulgrim shared in their brotherhood as perfectionists and craftsmen, but I figured that this was not as linked in their styles of war. As for the others... I'm not an expert on the Salamanders and the White Scars, nor many of the loyalists really. I just like imposing order on my Chaos...

I've been thinking about what we've been discussing though, particularly the passing comment about Vulkan tempering his brother's spirits while Lorgar may have been intended to incite them to war. I then looked at Dorn and Perturabo - both who excel at seigecraft but I would say the former is better and defence and the latter at attacking. Corax and Curze, who in Deliverance Lost are described as 'two sides of the same coin' due to their similar approaches to making war, but for Curze's lack of a code of honour. So they have similar characteristics but differ on a key point. Even with Horus and Guilliman as you mentioned above - Horus is the wartime leader, while Guilliman is being prepped for peace. Sadly Horus realises this and attempts to stay in power.

Which led me to thinking about what Magnus's polar opposite would be, and of course you need look no further than Prospero Burns - the psychic nulls of the Sisters of Silence. Also Nemesis and Outcast Dead feature pariahs, the latter notable due to having a male pariah, leaving the very real possibility that a Space Marine recruit could be one. Is this an idea you guys like? A Pariah Primarch?

I haven't really worked out what the rival opposite of the Alpha Legion could be. The Blatant Angels? The Super Obvious Marines?

[Mud Duck]

Lion'o Johnson and his Dark Angels for Magnus opposite?
Russ or Agron for Alpha's opposite. The many individuals Vs. the single face.

[DarkDesigner]

Lion'o Johnson and his Dark Angels for Magnus opposite?
Russ or Agron for Alpha's opposite. The many individuals Vs. the single face.

I had originally put Angron and Russ together as they both do the whole 'run angrily at the enemy thing', although the Wolves do it with more of an animal cunning and the WE with reckless abandon.

I think Wildeybeast is right, there are too many permutations and ways of putting them together to really use this as a way of defining the characteristics of the missing legions, but I still think the Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion don't really have anyone else to compare them with tactics-wise and so they are good candidates for whom the missing legions were meant to double.

I was looking at Lexicanum (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Legion_II#.UCongz2PWno) today and spotted that they said:

"Of the various abilities possessed by the Primarchs, one was "invisibility".
If this is taken literally, this presumably refers to one of the missing Primarchs, as invisibility is not a power possessed by those known. It could also mean this Primarch was a blank as such individuals are said to be invisible to psykers.
This could also be referring to Corax who is said to have effective invisibility, whereby he could walk amongst people without them noticing him. It is also said that only the Emperor knew this about the primarch."

Slightly disappointed my conjecture about a psychic null isn't an original one, but then the inivisibility could be taken to be a literal ability like Corax. What if two legions were made as stealthy spying legions, the Alpha Legion we know about, but the other is so good that they never emerge from their cover to engage in open warfare, and simply disappeared? You could even take it so far as to wonder whether they themselves deleted all records of their existence in order to maintain their chapter's mystique...

[Wildeybeast]

I had originally put Angron and Russ together as they both do the whole 'run angrily at the enemy thing', although the Wolves do it with more of an animal cunning and the WE with reckless abandon.

I think Wildeybeast is right, there are too many permutations and ways of putting them together to really use this as a way of defining the characteristics of the missing legions, but I still think the Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion don't really have anyone else to compare them with tactics-wise and so they are good candidates for whom the missing legions were meant to double.

I was looking at Lexicanum (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Legion_II#.UCongz2PWno) today and spotted that they said:

"Of the various abilities possessed by the Primarchs, one was "invisibility".
If this is taken literally, this presumably refers to one of the missing Primarchs, as invisibility is not a power possessed by those known. It could also mean this Primarch was a blank as such individuals are said to be invisible to psykers.
This could also be referring to Corax who is said to have effective invisibility, whereby he could walk amongst people without them noticing him. It is also said that only the Emperor knew this about the primarch."

Slightly disappointed my conjecture about a psychic null isn't an original one, but then the inivisibility could be taken to be a literal ability like Corax. What if two legions were made as stealthy spying legions, the Alpha Legion we know about, but the other is so good that they never emerge from their cover to engage in open warfare, and simply disappeared? You could even take it so far as to wonder whether they themselves deleted all records of their existence in order to maintain their chapter's mystique...

Yeah, that's Corax. The HH novels expand on this. He doesn't literally turn invisible, he just makes people not see him. Cameras and auto turrets and such like still pick him up, but people assume they are broken. The Emperor strongly implied he knew Corax had this ability when they first met, but Corax has never told anyone about it. He uses it on Istvaan to wander around the traitor camps without them noticing.

I doubt they would have another stealthy legion given the AL and RG already cover this. And there are still statues of the two Primarchs in the imperial palace at HH era time, so they haven't exactly been erased from the records.

Given each of the Primarchs represents a different part of the Emperor, it surprises me there are none with his scientific genius. There are several that make weapons and stuff, but no actual scientists and inventors.