Has anyone lost out in 6th Edition?

[Mr Mystery]

Yes. It's another thread. Sorry. My head is full of topics!

So this time, has any army or race come off worse than before with the advent of 6th Edition? I don't so much mean specific lists than can be made from a Codex, as after all those tend to be asking for a nerf when their new book or core rules come out.

Consider Wood Elves in fantasy. They got pretty badly mauled with the changes to skirmish, and infantry becoming harder to deal with. Between these broad changes they really got the poopy end of the stick.

So off you go.

[Defenestratus]

Yes. It's another thread. Sorry. My head is full of topics!

So this time, has any army or race come off worse than before with the advent of 6th Edition? I don't so much mean specific lists than can be made from a Codex, as after all those tend to be asking for a nerf when their new book or core rules come out.

Consider Wood Elves in fantasy. They got pretty badly mauled with the changes to skirmish, and infantry becoming harder to deal with. Between these broad changes they really got the poopy end of the stick.

So off you go.

I'd argue that my mech Eldar got the nerf bat pretty badly with hull points. We have the double whammy of having both expensive and fragile transports. The fact that a 35 point Rhino has the same amount of HP as a 120+pt Wave Serpent still baffles me.

Since tanks are overall less reliable in getting to their destination, and the fact that we can no longer assault out of our vehicles - but must stand around and take it on the chin for a round really hurts our fragile little space elves. Coupled by their exorbitant cost makes me feel that I should shelve all my tanks for the forseeable future.

[Mr Mystery]

Fair point. Although I'm more looking for army wide bonings, I'm yet to see an Eldar army without some kind of armour, and yes the WS is typically prolific so I think this counts. I don't think it's Wood Elf bad, but it certainly counts!

I'm also struggling to think of a unit type that got shafted across the board. Some have had their roles changed a bit, but I wouldn't say for instance, Cavalry are a no go because of said changes.

[Dalleron]

Eldar took some big hits, mostly to it's CC units. Having to be out of a transport the turn before you assault hurts them. When you add the in the fact they're space elves, its worse. But I think the army just changes it's way of playing. Add in that you cannot take or contest objective inside vehicles again hurts the eldar. They don't have staying power of marines, or horde armies like nids, IG or Orks. I'm not saying it's not right or wrong but eldar aren't cheap or tough.

[DarkLink]

Eldar basically had two decent lists, Footdar and Mechdar. Now, they have exactly one decent list.

That said, some of the new changes might result in a decent hybrid list. It's too early to tell, but someone might figure out something clever before they get a new codex.

Unfortunately for me, while I played foot heavy GKs, my secondary Eldar army was mechdar because I like Eldar vehicle. I didn't really play it as I was mostly sitting on it for a new codex, but it's not looking that great. We'll see when they do get a new codex, though.

[Denzark]

ALL CC based stuff. Simples. Several cumulative factors. Glances before used to take a minimum of 3 to kill a tank - and that was assuming it had only 1 weapon - surely everyone wuld have stuck a 5pt pintle on. Now 3 will pop that Rhino even if you don't slow it down. Can't charge, even out of the stationary vehicle. Then you get shot at charging in.

Then your furious chargers lose an extra I.

Means Berzerkers are shelved until the new codex confirms or denies their worth.

[Capt Forsythe]

Means Berzerkers are shelved until the new codex confirms or denies their worth.

Recent rumormill that I put stock into indicated berserkers are going to 5A on a charge with the new rage rule, and their chainaxes are going to be AP 5. Try as I might, my DE cannot avoid close combat with berserkers for an entire game and expect to hold any objectives. That charge is going to be devastating to T3 fellas with paperbag armor.

[Lerra]

These aren't entire codices, but rather armies.

Deathwing: you can no longer run the all-deep-strike Terminator army. Because of Deathwing Assault, half of the Terminators placed in reserve can enter play on turn 1, which used to mean that 2-3 units are going to deep strike on turn 1. Now it's down to 1-2 units deepstriking on turn 1. But they have a new codex coming soon.

White Scars: can't have all your bikes outflank or reserve anymore, which was a staple tactic for Khan's chapter.

Khornate Daemons: the loss of +1 strength on furious charge hit them pretty hard, and the change to power weapons being AP3 hurt them worse than most armies. They'll be able to ally in some new shiny Khornate CSM soon, though, so they should be alright.

No army got completely screwed in 6th, though, which is great. I suppose the army which took the biggest hit was Grey Knights because they went from being undisputed King of the Hill down to being a tier 1 army, on par with plenty of other codices.

[the jeske]

Khornate Daemons: the loss of +1 initiative on furious charge hit them pretty hard, and the change to power weapons being AP3 hurt them worse than most armies. They'll be able to ally in some new shiny Khornate CSM soon, though, so they should be alright.
fixed it.


nids got worst . no ally , no viable counter to flyers . SoB got worse too . no charging out of transports means their DCA [one of the few good units they had] makes no sense at all not and they dont have LR like GK . they have melta/flamer set ups on units where for 6th you want plasma and longe range anti tank[sob only have MM]. change to vehicles is ok for meq who have many non rhino class stuff , but for sob this means everything just dies fasters . challange rules screw them over because VSS are IG sgts in power armor .

[Gwyidion]

I'd argue that my mech Eldar got the nerf bat pretty badly with hull points. We have the double whammy of having both expensive and fragile transports. The fact that a 35 point Rhino has the same amount of HP as a 120+pt Wave Serpent still baffles me.

Since tanks are overall less reliable in getting to their destination, and the fact that we can no longer assault out of our vehicles - but must stand around and take it on the chin for a round really hurts our fragile little space elves. Coupled by their exorbitant cost makes me feel that I should shelve all my tanks for the forseeable future.

ehh...

mech eldar got the nerfbat hard.

Foot eldar got buffs pretty much across the board.

[Archon Charybdis]

nids got worst . no ally , no viable counter to flyers .

Nids got better in a lot of ways too. The greater accessibility of cover for MC's makes them more survivable. While the 2d6 pen is gone, hitting vehicles on 3's and Smash make units like Tervigons and Trygons pretty ferocious against vehicles now. Biomancy powers can make an MC heavy list particularly terrifying. The loss of No Retreat! makes swarmy armies especially viable again (and makes the Tervigon that much meaner). No allies kind of sucks, but doubling the FOC at 2K gives you a lot of that flexibility anyway, and allows you to cover your bases.

[the jeske]

The greater accessibility of cover for MC's makes them more survivable.
if plasma is once again the weapon of choice then the life of a MC went down not up .


The greater accessibility of cover for MC's makes them more survivable. While the 2d6 pen is gone, hitting vehicles on 3's and Smash make units like Tervigons and Trygons pretty

what would be awesome if all non nid armies were build 5th ed style . Only they arent . they have huge problems with flyers and with random charge will have problems with catching some vehicles . they still dont have frags and if somehow someone lets a fex or a brood get in to hth , then he is doing something wrong [or the nid player is a dice god].


The loss of No Retreat! makes swarmy armies especially viable again (and makes the Tervigon that much meaner).
viable to do what , tar pit ? and it doesnt even work against most armies. yes fearless changed but that is more a buff to other armies who can transfer it with characters . a trygon still gets plasma double tap/LF RL killed in a single turn . the only change from 5th ed is that in 5th most of the squads had melta ,now more will have plasma so MC die faster . Also swarm type nid units have an even greater problem with getting in to hth then MC[other then the usual no frags ,random charge range] . overwatch hits them realy hard . a single combi flamer or a flamer in a squad may force a failed charge , even bolters considering double tap hurts them . same with gaunts only they dont have problems with being unable to use infiltrate/outflank.


No allies kind of sucks, but doubling the FOC at 2K gives you a lot of that flexibility anyway, and allows you to cover your bases.
you wouldnt believe how many places in main land europe stop their games at 1999. or play no double FoC. double FoC has the acceptance level of FW stuff.

[lattd]

you wouldnt believe how many places in main land europe stop their games at 1999. or play no double FoC. double FoC has the acceptance level of FW stuff.

If people don't let you use double FOC at 2000 points don't let them use fliers or fortifications or grenades, pick any stupid rule you want, and when they start to whine tell them if they aren't going to play all the rules neither are you. Double FOC doesn't require your opponents permission, so don't ask them just do it.

[CrimsonTurkey]

Well, I had an undefeated null deployment nid army that suddenly found itself struggling. As a person with no money to update his army, that's really frustrating.

[Caleth]

Jeske,

Using the specifics of your meta to broadly paint the situation of Tyranids as a whole is unfair. Things like not using double FOC are unique quirks to your area/region. I would think in fact that double FOC was introduced specifically to help armies like nids. (personal opinion of course.)

Also IDK about you but I'd say tyranids got a massive boost from the changes to Psykers especially the hoods. The inability to block FNP being put on MC's which now get it even against AP2 is awesome. Also pumping up their toughness through spells puts a hurt on plasma. Also there hasn't been a massive and rapid shift to plasma as your post seems to suggest I've seen plasma make a from death comeback but that is hardly the same as all plasma all the time. But again this is in my meta in the middle of the USA. So horde swarms in front of large gribbildies providing cover saves to them, and psykers popping FNP on them to boot makes the seem a little less beat up that I think you're suggesting.

Realistically our local nid player that I've spoken with at all on the subject is stoked with his list. Is it perfect no, he has issues with fliers, but most people in our meta haven't dog piled on those yet. But as we're seeing in the just posted rumors on the front page there may well be things to address that. I would say maybe nids didn't get boned as much as they just had a really really deep hole to climb out of, and this edition while it gave them several great hand holds also knocked out one or two.

Also your argument about the changes to RCL aren't entirely accurate. You're average roll on charge distance is actually longer then the old six inch average. Yes occasionally you'll get hosed by it but some times you'll get a magic 12 inches too.... wow that sounds bad but still you know what I mean. Also the fact beasts are 12" move now is great because you're closing faster by far. Two 12in moves and a random charge is still longer than two 6in moves and a 12in charge. But again how much this matters depends totally on your meta.

[Archon Charybdis]

if plasma is once again the weapon of choice then the life of a MC went down not up .

It's not as if vehicles have suddenly disappeared from the game and there's no need for meltas anymore--you'll still see plenty of Rhinos and Landraiders. And given the changes to glancing hits and the addition of Snap Shots, it seems tanks as gun platforms have only gotten better. Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me to see a bit of a resurgence in Plasma compared to 5th edition, but you know what? You'll have a cover save.


they have huge problems with flyers and with random charge will have problems with catching some vehicles . they still dont have frags and if somehow someone lets a fex or a brood get in to hth , then he is doing something wrong

Any army that doesn't have flyers of it's own or Hydras has problems with flyers at the moment. This isn't a nid specific problem, and I don't find them particularly worse off than anybody else. I've seen a Fex with a pair of TL-brainleech devourers be very effective against flyers, and that volume of S6 fire has a utility against just about any kind of target.

I'm also not sure what you're on about regarding random charge distances, once again I see no way in which nids are any more positively or adversely affected by random charge ranges than anyone else (2d6 charge means on average they'll go farther than last edition).

Lacking frags is not an edition change issue.


a whole bunch of random non sequiturs

I'm really not sure what the chance that people might possibly take more plasma has to do with your gaunts now being able to tie enemy units down for rounds on end. Not losing again as many models if you lose combat is huge, not only does it keep your enemy tied down it maintains your killing power.

A full squad of marines overwatching will kill 2 or 3 gaunts. Whoop de doo, you've lost 15pts (or none if you're fielding Tervigons).


you wouldnt believe how many places in main land europe stop their games at 1999. or play no double FoC. double FoC has the acceptance level of FW stuff.

Then as lattd already addressed, don't let them use allies, or tell them they don't get an assault phase. If people don't want to play the game using the rules as written, find other people to play with. That's a problem with your gaming group, not the rules set.

[Gir]

From my experience, Blood Angels got hit pretty hard. I can't think of an army that got hit harder.

[Kawauso]

From my experience, Blood Angels got hit pretty hard. I can't think of an army that got hit harder.

Hmm, I want to get in some experience, there. Sadly my games are very few and far between...

BA do have access to a pretty awesome flyer, though. Especially with the missiles their version carries.

[ragnarcissist]

as a space wolves player ive been doing pretty well. BUT, i want a damn flyer. not an allied flyer. my own flyer.

[Kawauso]

as a space wolves player ive been doing pretty well. BUT, i want a damn flyer. not an allied flyer. my own flyer.

Space Wolves should fight with both feet planted on the ground, as Russ intended. ;3

Really though if my wolves get access to some sort of Skyfire option(s), I`ll be happy.

[Sainhann]

I would disagree that Eldar lost all that much.

Many units that were not being all that much are making a huge comback.

True, we lack for an open top vehicle for our close combat troops. But that does not mean that our vehicles will not see the tabletop ever again.

Actually since many of the vehicle upgrades that inidividuals were always taking are no longer need so the vehicles got cheaper.

Plus one just needs to use the cover and get the cover saves.

Plus Eldar will be one of the first Codexs done for 6th Edition and their is hope that our vehicles will get cheaper because they are way overpriced right now.

Eldar have many units that can put out some nasty bit of fire power and 6th Edition is moving to more shooting than close combat.

The thing with vehicles is that you should now expect them to not last the game. You go into the game knowing that at some point it will get destroyed and the longerthey last the better.

[Archon Charybdis]

From my experience, Blood Angels got hit pretty hard. I can't think of an army that got hit harder.

Not to be the guy trying to rain on everyone's woe is me parade, but on what basis do you say that? I can see a few particular builds that would've been hurt like all reserves DoA or Rhino-mounted Assault squads, but on the whole BA seem to have done just fine if not come out a little ahead. For instance-- fast Vehicles are even better, the Storm Raven is probably the toughest shootiest flyer in the game, Death Company got way the hell better, and Sang Guard are now even more highly survivable. I'm just really not seeing this hard hit.


I would disagree that Eldar lost all that much

Generally I'd agree. Yeah holo-fields are useless now, but save the points you would've spent and just buy more tanks, and with a 5+ cover save I've found my survivability not really any different than it was in 5th ed. I do find it irksome that Banshees are not so viable anymore, but I would run lists in 5th ed that were all shooting anyway. Plus, on the other end of the spectrum Harlequins are a more useful option than before with their ability to punch through 2+ and Fleet foot sloggers being able to advance more consistently.

[the jeske]

eah holo-fields are useless now, but save the points you would've spent and just buy more tanks
you cant realy buy more tanks when you have 3 Hvy slots anyway .

[Archon Charybdis]

you cant realy buy more tanks when you have 3 Hvy slots anyway .

You can when your group follows the rules at 2k. Also, Corsair allies.

[the jeske]

So FW and playing over 1999. that doesnt happen offten outside of UK in europe.

[Archon Charybdis]

So FW and playing over 1999. that doesnt happen offten outside of UK in europe.

So glad you can speak for the playing conventions of an entire continent. Needless to say, I am incredibly skeptical of your claim NOBODY plays at 2K in the entirety of the European continent (outside the UK). Maybe your group doesn't, but that would be a particular quirk of your area--the several parts of the US I've been too I've always been able to find someone willing to play at 2k. Regardless, the basic point still stands, take your spare points from not getting holo-fields and include something else in your list--continue being a solid but not top tier army when played well.

Further, FW rules are as legal as GW, and while Corsairs are convenient because they have mostly the same vehicles, you can easily substitute any Ally option available that floats your boat.

[Anggul]

I think, (and I'm not being biased because I play them, as they are but one of the few armies that I play) that the Eldar got hit pretty hard in a major factor. Their psychic defence is still great, Falcons can now do their thing with moving 12" and firing both main weapons once more, Eldrad can have all of his fun with the new Divination discipline, and Rangers and Jetbikes are now actually decent.

However, the changes to Rapid-fire have turned Dire Avengers, what were our troops mainstay and a pretty decent force to be reckoned with into quite mediocre shooters. having 18" storm bolters made them a lot more flexible than most other basic troops, but now that Rapid-fire can move and fire full range, this edge is now pretty much gone, as the vast majority of basic troops use rapid-fire weapons.

Various Eldar toys got a lot nicer, but losing the edge your most basic troops give you is a real kick in the spirit stones.


Not that Eldar bad at all, but it does hurt and slightly confuse to have Dire Avengers go from pretty good to inferior.

Emphasis on: We still came out pretty well and have a lot of nice things, it's just I have a real soft spot for Dire Avengers, they've always served me so well.

[Yarlen Fireblade]

I´m curious that no one mentioned the three biggest nerfs to eldar IMO in 6th.

- Not being able to cast psychics from vehicles (other than to vehicle or transported unit).
- Everyone given eldar powers on divination AND after around 15 games, I no longer use divination with eldar. It has its advantages, but we lose Fortune, best single power for me.
- Eldar heavy weapons are mostly carried on Serpents and Falcons and those are no longer viable for me. It´s nearly impossible to fill a good all role heavy weapon quota without these, so my current rosters are always lacking in this field.

For all those reasons, my eldar got shelved except on light gaming until a new codex gets out. They never did so bad anyway for a nearly 7 year old codex

And no, Blood Angels didn´t take a hit anywhere except in FNP and got a lot of good stuff to compensate. Predators moving 12 UM and firing two lascannons? Death Company and rage? Devastator loaded quick rhinos? FNP motorbike squads? ATSKNF on the whole?

[Gir]

Not to be the guy trying to rain on everyone's woe is me parade, but on what basis do you say that? I can see a few particular builds that would've been hurt like all reserves DoA or Rhino-mounted Assault squads, but on the whole BA seem to have done just fine if not come out a little ahead. For instance-- fast Vehicles are even better, the Storm Raven is probably the toughest shootiest flyer in the game, Death Company got way the hell better, and Sang Guard are now even more highly survivable. I'm just really not seeing this hard hit.

DoA was ruined
Furioss's got ruined
Standard assault marines lost a lot of effectiveness, especially with the Furious Charge nerf
Fast vehicles lost a lot effectiveness compared to normal vehicles
Death Company got better, but now you can't get them to the enemy effectively
Sang guard got more survivable, but they lost offensive capability
Predator line lost a lot of power

But really, it all comes down to not being able to deepstrike most of your list, not being able to contest with vehicles, not being able to charge out of rhinos or razorbacks, and the massive nerf to FC. All things BA rely on.

[Yarlen Fireblade]

DoA was ruined
Furioss's got ruined
Standard assault marines lost a lot of effectiveness, especially with the Furious Charge nerf
Fast vehicles lost a lot effectiveness compared to normal vehicles
Death Company got better, but now you can't get them to the enemy effectively
Sang guard got more survivable, but they lost offensive capability
Predator line lost a lot of power

But really, it all comes down to not being able to deepstrike most of your list, not being able to contest with vehicles, not being able to charge out of rhinos or razorbacks, and the massive nerf to FC. All things BA rely on.

They´re not so bad. Furiosos can only me meltabombed in CC, not kracked, huge difference. I think we can all reckon Furious charge was a bit too much, so no big surprise. I regularly use DoA with success, only not a full DoA build, but a balanced one with different units, and it works well.
Most BA nerfs are GLOBAL nerfs, so we all took it. No one assaults or scores from vehicles, so no problem on that for BA, that´s way more of an eldar nerf than a BA nerf. If ONLY BA lost the ability to assault or score, then I´d understand...

BA remain one of the most varied and dependable armies, as every unit is good in itself. Quick transports, better jump packs, better predators and vindicators, best flyer on game and only Dreadnoughts largely unaffected by CC nerf...

[Mr Mystery]

So FW and playing over 1999. that doesnt happen offten outside of UK in europe.

As already covered, anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

I've not doubled up my FoC yet because I've got a sweet 2,000 point army as is. Doesn't mean I won't at some point.

And which countries do you have this post 6th experience in?

[the jeske]

As tournaments go .
2 in holland , 1 in berlin , 2 local ones in Russia and one in Poland . I have a very good friend in Italy and Greec right now and everywhere its single FoC no FW games . Same with my friends in Spain . local adds for smaller tournaments[not point , number of people] are also under 2k without FW.At least in eastern europe and central europe . no idea how it looks in France and how the nord man changed their compo tournaments .
I mean even in UK the main GT isnt 2k pts.


how would you build a tyranid 1500-1750pts army , any good ideas or list building tricks ?

[Mr Mystery]

As tournaments go .
2 in holland , 1 in berlin , 2 local ones in Russia and one in Poland . I have a very good friend in Italy and Greec right now and everywhere its single FoC no FW games . Same with my friends in Spain . local adds for smaller tournaments[not point , number of people] are also under 2k without FW.At least in eastern europe and central europe . no idea how it looks in France and how the nord man changed their compo tournaments .
I mean even in UK the main GT isnt 2k pts.


how would you build a tyranid 1500-1750pts army , any good ideas or list building tricks ?

Do what I always do. Build an army I like the feel of and to hell with the meta.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Also your argument about the changes to RCL aren't entirely accurate.

What does RCL stand for? Ugh. Can anyone write about Warhammer 40,000 without acronyms?

[Drunkencorgimaster]

What does RCL stand for? Ugh. Can anyone write about Warhammer 40,000 without acronyms?

Oooh. I'm guessing Random Charge Length?

[Drunkencorgimaster]

So FW and playing over 1999. that doesnt happen offten outside of UK in europe.

FW? Forge World?

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Predators moving 12 UM and firing two lascannons? Death Company and rage? Devastator loaded quick rhinos? FNP motorbike squads? ATSKNF on the whole?

Oh for God's sake, I give up on this thread! Jesus, Joseph and Mary anyways. Or should it be JJ&Ma?

[Uncle Nutsy]

geez, it's like you can just go: "pd move 12 um firing two LC? DC and rage? dev loaded q rh? FNP MB squads? ATSKNF?" and still believe you wrote a meaningful post.

I came into this thread expecting to see discussion on who lost out in 6th, if anything. What I saw, was a mess.

[the jeske]

Do what I always do. Build an army I like the feel of and to hell with the meta.
0_o bad armies make you feel good . only way for this to work if you played when everyone else also plays the same way. Most places I played in europe [and that includes UK although that was 10 years ago] the difference between a tournament and non tournament army is that , the with non tournament ones people didnt care about having a copy of their list for the opponent and didnt care if some paint get chiped from their models because 1v1 games have no painting score.