Trazyn the Infiite and Catacomb Command Barge Question

[alshrive]

ok simple question.

If Trazyn makes a sweep attack from a Catacomb Command Barge- can he use his empathic obliterator on the unit he swept. for example, if he swept a horde of guardsmen could he then trigger it to kill a load more potentially. The empathic obliterator says models killed in close combat, but the sweep attack says apply special rules from the weapon used (he has essentially hit them with it in his sweep attack....)

ok guys, have at it

ALShrive

[DrLove42]

You don't get the Wych's 4+ dodge save, nor do you get the 2++ of the Grey Knights Stave thing, so its not combat, so i'd say no you don't. Just kills the units you killed

[alshrive]

yeah i couldnt decide, i was debating taking that combo as the head of my force for Blog Wars 4 this year but i can't decide what character!

[Cursed13]

The Sweep Attack rules state "Each hit is resolved at the rider's strength, plus any Strength bonuses, AP value and special abilities from his Melee weapon," p82. By that I would say the Empathic Obliterator's ability activates as if it were a close combat attack. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

That's an interesting clash of opinion...

[alshrive]

i have sat pondering this and debating with mates overnight. we have concluded that until an FAQ is released in friendly games we will allow it (mainly because it is dead cinematic and cool as hell- which is what 6th is all about).

RAW i think you wouldn't get away with it because it isn't strictly speaking close combat, but he is essentially hitting them with a CCW so a bit of quandary! I mean technically you have to use a weapon with the Melee rule in a sweep attack- ergo it is melee/ close combat but......

well i will just keep pondering!

ALShrive

[Xenith]

ok simple question.

If Trazyn makes a sweep attack from a Catacomb Command Barge- can he use his empathic obliterator on the unit he swept. for example, if he swept a horde of guardsmen could he then trigger it to kill a load more potentially. The empathic obliterator says models killed in close combat, but the sweep attack says apply special rules from the weapon used (he has essentially hit them with it in his sweep attack....)

ok guys, have at it

ALShrive

This came out with the Necron codex, and was resolved then.

the obliterator works when you kill a model in close combat. The sweep attack is not a close combat attack.

You can apply the special rule all you want, but it never triggers as you are never in CC.

[Cursed13]

I can agree with Xenith that in the Necron FAQ that it states Sweep Attacks are not Close Combat Attacks, and that the Empathic Obliterator says that it's effect is resolved in the Assault Phase. It's just the fact that the new Sweep Attack rules says that the abilities of the weapon are still used that gets me. Until an FAQ is released stating whether or not it does work, I would judge that it does not work until such a time as an FAQ on it is released, even though I feel it should. Although if the Empathic Obliterator did work in Sweep Attacks, it would be a much more appealing option.
In a friendly game I wouldn't mind permitting it's use; it's your game after all, you and your opponent can agree to interpret the rules as you see fit to make the game enjoyable and entertaining. The Big Rule Book even says so.
In a tournament however, I would not allow it to be used as such until a hard and fast FAQ says otherwise, simply because I enforce Rules As Written at all times. That's just my take on it.

[Nachodragon]

The command barge used to say you used the abilities of the close combat weapon as well. The only thing that could have been used would have been the power weapon ability, Entropic Strike and rending. Theoretically, you could not use Orikan's time strike (had to have him hijack a barge first) and couldn't use trazyn's staff.

Personally, I think you should be able to, I hope they address those specifically as I would probably play trazyn on a barge a couple times, though, the reality is it would only be powerful against orks and potentially IG. Anything else would maybe only take 1 more wound.

[Lord Anubis]

Actually, this did get discussed a lot (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=18282) when Codex: Necrons came out. The general agreement was that empathic obliterator did work with Sweep attacks.

If you use the "only works in close combat/not close combat" rationale, it effectively nullifies all close combat weapons. Check out their descriptions--95% of them are described as working "in close combat". If the empathic obliterator doesn't work, neither do warscythes, voidblades, hyperphase swords...

Which then brings up the question, why include a rule that has no effect on anything?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Time to email Games Workshop.... AGAIN. :p

[alshrive]

let me know what they say TDA!

[Nachodragon]

Ok, so is there a special email? Cause every time i have sent an email i get a response that says they dont respond to rules questions over email and to call.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

[email protected]

[Daemonette666]

I am not sure about this, but it sounds a bit like a vector strike from a flying monstrous creature. I seem to remember that a vector strike is counted as one of the Monstrous creatures shooting attacks. I will have to go and check the special rules in the new rule book.

Even then, you will have to compare the wording from the Necron Codex, with the wording for vector strike. They might be treated completely different, as so many things are now treated differently because they do not fit into the descriptions in the rule book.

I would just contact your Regional GW head office, and ask for a ruling. It may not be a tournament legal decision, but could assist in your local games.

[Nachodragon]

It will potentially not be just the Necrons. The new Chariot rules provide a sweep attack to skimmers that are chariots.

Comparing the Necron codex to the new chariot rules, the only difference in the description is it says 'melee' weapon in stead of 'close combat weapon'. However, they DID change it to be a sweep attack for EVERY attack for that character. Which IS different from the Necron Codex, it used to just be three, granted the overlord units that count only have 3 attacks.

Hopefully, they will answer this in the FAQ, but I would say you should be able to use an ability of the weapon; Empathic Obliterator, Gauntlet of Fire, Void blade, Staff of tomorrow. Whatever it is, as it says you can use the special abilities of that weapon. If you could not use any of those abilities, you would not be able to use a warscythe either, as Armor bane is 2D6 pen in close combat. Which is the same wording for all the other special abilities.

The only difference that Trazyn has is it gives you the timing on when the extra wounds would occur in close combat. And just to repeat, ALL* weapons with a special ability (that can be used in a chariot currently) say in close combat. So, if it is not allowed then the only thing you gain is a strength bonus, AP value, and ??? for special abilities.

*The only one that I can find so far would be Entropic Strike does not mention close combat.

[Belial69]

And they did remove the FAQ clarification from the previous version when they released the 6th ed FAQs. Oversight or not, it's a Ward book and they mostly got huge buffs, so probably will be allowed now, lol.