Space Marine fans wishlist...

[EmperorEternalXIX]

At the onset of 5th edition the Space Marines suffered a number of changes that came about largely due to outcries from the player base. Most of this was completely unfounded, and was the result of hyperbole gone horrifically out of control. A brief list of the changes that can be almost exclusively linked to the Space Marine complaints...


Many people complained about the number of assault cannon terminators landspeeders you could have in the old SM codex. The idea was that rending was too powerful for the assault cannon (even though the assault cannon granted a cover save against the rending, as opposed to genestealers). As a result, GW nerfed rending into the floor to appease the masses.
The power fist nerf. Though many will argue it was necessary, the change in rules to not count a power fist as granting +1A when paired with a pistol was likely influenced by a huge volume of people who complained about the Space Marine veteran sergeants. This was the last step after raising the price to 25 points, as well.
The cost of extra armor rose heavily after the onset of the Dark Angels codex. I would wager this was more about the Rhino than the Chimera at the time...
Plasma costs were increased for all MEQ armies after massive complaints of "min maxing las-plas tactical squads" filled message boards about mid-way through 4th edition. Apparently, a 6-man squad of marines that doesn't move and has no transport is a horrendously difficult opponent. This is also the reason we are the only army in the game with so many forced squad size restrictions on weaponry -- because apparently a 5 man SM squad with a melta gun is too good. I am fairly certain this is also why a devastator squad with like 3 or 4 lascannons costs the same as a land raider.
Many complained about the traits system and that its benefits were too good, while its disadvantages didn't really disadvantage a player much. Now, codex releases are regularly put out where many powerful abilities and benefits have no negative and it doesn't seem to bother anyone, but at the time people pretty regularly demanded that these traits be removed. The irony is that the most powerful ones were rarely complained about, because they were seldomly used.


These are just some of the many things that were done to the Space Marine army in the name of appeasing the witch hunt that was going on at the time. Things snowballed and got out of control and before you knew it people who never fought a Space Marine army in their local tournaments would swear that the 9-assault cannon army had destroyed all comers.

My point is that many people talked about what they wanted done, and because enough of the community was in agreement, GW did exactly what they wanted (for better or worse). So I would like to swing things in the positive direction for us now, by asking other Space Marine players out there what they would like to see in their codex next edition, or what you think should be changed from the current dex?

[Cryl]

Give them CC weapons as well as bolt pistols. The current codex isn't perfect but that's really the only "quick fix" that I'd really like / need. As people have pointed out the tactical squad just isn't as good nor as flexible as it should be... give them 2 attacks and suddenly there's a different outlook on how they play and they're much more space marine than they are now.

There's loads of other things that could / should be done but for me that's the biggest most immediate fix that could be made.

[Crae]

Give them CC weapons as well as bolt pistols. The current codex isn't perfect but that's really the only "quick fix" that I'd really like / need. As people have pointed out the tactical squad just isn't as good nor as flexible as it should be... give them 2 attacks and suddenly there's a different outlook on how they play and they're much more space marine than they are now.

There's loads of other things that could / should be done but for me that's the biggest most immediate fix that could be made.

I agree....boltpistol and closecombat weapon would fix the biggest problem. Besides that, they should remove army wide changes, by using special chars. The trait system was way better.

The issue with the powerfists, is most likely more down to ork nobs then SM sergeants.

[krispy]

I third the suggestion, after all why did i get pistols and knives to put on all the marines when i only get to use one of them.....

[Xas]

the traith system was removed because the supposed dissadvantages were a farce.

what they could have done was make a set combination of advantage & disadvantage from which to choose.


All I want for the next marine dex is a big section on combat tactics and combat theory to teach the players how to use local superiority to counterwork the enemies global superiority and win fights. ATM most space marine players act like they played a guard/ork army (depending on build) and are puzzled when they get beaten while they are not deisgned for that type of game!


rending was nerfed because the assoult canon while designed to take down infantry was the best anti-tank weapon in the game. you had 4 shots and on a 6 you were in a position to penetrate AV14 on a 3+

it still is one of the best weapon to take out vehicles at range while at same time beeing potent against infantry.


finally las-plas has not been removed. all that has changed is that you now have to buy a 5man combat squad in addition (which perfectly suits to carry the powerfist). additionally plasma cost has increased for ALL armies (imperial guard pays as much for a BS3, t3, 5+ save plasma gun as a BS4 t4 3+ save space marine!). this change was not a nerf to marines but a buff to their 3+ armor because weapons to ignore it got more expensive.

[Melissia]

My wishlist is for the next Marine codex to be pushed back time and time again in favor of codices that actually need updating.

[sangrail777]

My wishlist is for the next Marine codex to be pushed back time and time again in favor of codices that actually need updating.

LOL!!! I really got a laugh out of this.
ok well I think they should ......ahhh...add +1 attack to all space marine profiles (no equipment needed/no points added) just add it to the stats. All around that would be a simple way to give them an extra edge against anything.

[Herald of Nurgle]

LOL!!! I really got a laugh out of this.
ok well I think they should ......ahhh...add +1 attack to all space marine profiles (no equipment needed/no points added) just add it to the stats. All around that would be a simple way to give them an extra edge against anything.
LOL!!! I really got a laugh out of this.
ok well I think they should ......ahhh...add +2 attack to all chaos space marine profiles (no equipment needed/no points added) just add it to the stats. All around that would be a simple way to actually give them an edge against something.

[Gotthammer]

All marines getting a form of Relentless, but only affects shooting (bolters always shoot 24", but no charging after shooting bolters still). Points increase for all special/heavy weapons, and an extra point or so on a regular guy.

Devs cost a buttload, but if they stay still heavy weapons (not bolter guys) gain +1BS or can split fire like Long Fangs as longs as the Sgt is alive with his Signum thingy.

Scouts can take LS Storms as dedicated transports.

Predators become fast - they have crud armour but are just as slow as any other 'MBT' (points increase). Give Razorbacks a BS2 Machine Spirit.

Drop pods go up in price with all this too.

Storm Shields go to 4++ save.

Vindicators gain a 4+ main gun save like primary weapons in Apoc.

ATSKNF means marines auto rally regardless of anything. It's currently "ATSKNF, so long as the mean men who hurt them aren't too close".

Probably ditch Comabt Tactics to compensate.

Make Commanders more useful - bring back Rites of Battle, and give them different options:
- buy a bike, bikers become troops (Master of the Marches)
- buy Orbital Bombardment as an upgrade seperately (Master of the Fleet)
- take a certain option to make scouts WS/BS 4 at +??pts per scout squad (Master of the Recruits)
- take somethign else to take heavy support as elites (with a 0-1 restriction on each to prevent LR spam) (Master of the Armoury)

Make Locator Beacons a wargear option for Sgts, placed like a Demo Charge.

Mostly things to make marines into the super mobile, super fast strike force they should be, rather than a fairly slow moving army. Predators and Razors tend to sit still, and the classical Tac Squad is either wasting bolters by sitting still with a heavy weapon, or wasting the heavy weapon by moving (and possibly also wasting bolters too wtih Rapid Fire).


But only after all those other Codexes that really need it get updated.

[Aldramelech]

My wishlist is for the next Marine codex to be pushed back time and time again in favor of codices that actually need updating.

This is becoming a bit of a habit for you isn't it? ;)

[Maria]

My wishlist would be for SMs to laugh so hard at the sisters of battle for having bobbed hair that the SoB walk off the table shamed :)

[Maria]

My serious wishlist though would be for SMs to have counter charge, that would rock!

[Aldramelech]

They do need some new models though. I mean for gods sake anyone would have thought the "Jennifer" look had never happened! Id bring em bang up to date though, maybe Becky Mantin? (ITV sexy weather girl):D

[Maria]

Yea, the bobs are shameful .. they look like dodgy spies, hehe

[Aldramelech]

Id settle for a CC weapon. Can someone tell me why Assault cannons are not Assault weapons????

[The West Coast Knight]

Plastic Thunderhawks

Thats all I want for Marines;)

[Drew da Destroya]

This is becoming a bit of a habit for you isn't it? ;)

Have you met Melissia before? ;)
I'm pretty sure she's an actual Sororitas, sent back in time from the far future thanks to a Warp Storm. Her main goals, of course, are to promote her sisterhood so that when the future finally rolls back around, there will already be a willing base of recruits for the Sisters. GW's current policy of ignoring the entire WH line is seriously hurting her PR campaign, though.


Can someone tell me why Assault cannons are not Assault weapons????

Military irony? Can you tell me why a "Minigun" is actually quite large?

[Aldramelech]

Have you met Melissia before? ;)
I'm pretty sure she's an actual Sororitas, sent back in time from the far future thanks to a Warp Storm. Her main goals, of course, are to promote her sisterhood so that when the future finally rolls back around, there will already be a willing base of recruits for the Sisters. GW's current policy of ignoring the entire WH line is seriously hurting her PR campaign, though.

And get them affordable yet fashionable hair styles?




Military irony? Can you tell me why a "Minigun" is actually quite large?

Compared to the Vulcan 20mm from which its developed its quite compact! lol

[Archon]

Marines have a brand new codex - they don´t need anything. Just some players, wich are able to use them wisly ;)

PS: I like the SoB Haircut :)

[EmperorEternalXIX]

If I gave any player who is a regular of another army this codex and ripped the Vulkan and Pedro pages out, they would lose. No doubt in my mind.

[Archon]

If I gave any player who is a regular of another army this codex and ripped the Vulkan and Pedro pages out, they would lose. No doubt in my mind.

How about to free your mind and take a look over the special-char.-rim? The codex has a lot of nice combos in there. We are in the 5th Ed. The ways to play (beardy) SM in the 4th (Rendingoverdose and LasPlas) are long gone.

[Aldramelech]

I dont do special characters, never have, never will. Its almost considered bad form to use them where Im from.

[DarkLink]

The trait system was pretty much replaced with the Chapter Tactics system, so I wouldn't complain about loosing Traits.

And frankly, other armies (Tyranids) were hurt much harder by the rending nerf than Space Marines, and the Space marines got lots of good replacement options (60pt landspeeders with 2 heavy bolters).

The new SM 'dex is pretty average, with lots of fluffy options and only a few quietionable things (Special Characters modifying Chapter Tactics wan't the best idea GW had). Considering how many other armies are waiting to have a good codex (Necrons, Daemonhunters) or waiting to get a new one (Dark Eldar, Daemonhunters), SM players don't have much to complain about.

[Ghoulio]

My wish list would be as follows:

1) Storm Shields changed to a 4+. 3+ is just retarded. I really dont like that GW is making invuln saves better and better with every book.
2) Changing Vulkan chapter traits, or removing him/it completely. Having EVERY flamer, melta weapon being twin linked and all thunder hammers master crafted is ridiculous. I mean, for every master crafted weapon you have that is 15pts you get for free. Right now literally half of the marine armies I have played in this edition have had this special character.
3) If you do give them the option of having an extra hand weapon, make it 2pts extra or something.
4) A better way to modify your chapter OTHER then having some super expensive special character in your army. I really liked the idea of the traits in the 4th ed SM book, I just wish they added something like that and balanced it better.

I have read through the book many times, and I really dont see any actual downgrades. The leaders are better, everyone gets better wargear (see auto-included halos for commanders, etc.), you get more options. As others mentioned most of the downgrades you talk about hurt other armies WAY more then SM. Really, if you think about it there really isnt any reason to complain. The army got better and got cheaper for the most part. Just look at tactical squads. Sure extra marines are 16 points, but you get flamers for free (5pts) and missile launchers (another 10pts), and vet sarges (another 15pts) The old rules a 10 man squad costs 180pts and in the new book its 170pts.

[Evil-Termite]

I'm pretty happy with the current marine codex. However, I have several models that don't get used much because they cost too many points for what they do (The way I play). Devistators, Tri-las predators, assault marines, and my precious powerfist sergents very rarely make it into any of my games because they just don't put out. All GW has to do is lower the point costs to the point where they will be useful. I'm especially bummed about Assault marines since they are so cool looking. I would prefer them being able to run in squads of up to 20, and being 15 points per marine. That may be too good for many people, but for how bad I roll, it would make them just right.

There is one unit that I would like to see added. A 60 point HQ that can take any of the assault weapons (or a heavy flamer) that I could throw into my close range shooty list at 1000 points. Make it so when he is added to a tac squad, the tac squad can still get a heavy or special weapon.

[sketchesofpayne]

Just give me a close combat weapon... that's all I want!

Also, defensive weapons being down-graded to strength 4 has made predators useless. Might as well bring a Vindicator.


Vulkan is not over-powered. The only unit that can even get thunderhammers any more are CC Terminators. Sergeants can't have them anymore. Twin-linked flamers and meltas are nice, but both are short range weapons. If flamers are ruining your day then stop bunching up your troops! If they're spaced out 2 inches apart your can usually only get 4 or 5 guys with a flamer template.

Multimeltas that aren't mounted on vehicles are hard to use, because you have to sit for a full turn to fire it and hope the enemy vehicle doesn't just drive away. And while the multimelta is shooting at the vehicle, the rest of the squad just has to twiddle their thumbs. The only vehicle mounted ones you get are on dreadnoughts, landspeeders, and LR crusaders.

I really only take Vulkan because I've played Salamanders for a long time and was excited to finally get a special character.

[SombreBrotherhood]

I want to be able to make *my* leader characters again. I loved the armory, enjoyed taking a heavier or lighter version of a Chappy or Libby. Now, stock Chappies are BS4, fer cryin out loud. That sexy beast is just as good in CC as a tactical marine sergeant, too...wow...and no more artifice armor option? C'mon, the nerfing of the HQ choices was pretty awful. I cringe when my friend's Black Templar MoS goes all crazy on me...3 wounds, 5 attacks on the charge, like a leader of the Imperium's badasses should be, methinks.

Also, I want some love for Terminators, too. For the same price I get a Bloodcrusher, who has S5 T5 +1W +1A, Eternal Warrior and can sweeping advance in exchange for 1 less on his armor save...OR...a Nob who has +1W +1A, furious assault, and at equivalent cost get FNP in exchange for 2 less armor.

Terminator armor should confer Eternal Warrior and/or another wound. Make 'em really tough and 0-1 them. I have no problems with that. If they're supposed to be so cool, shouldn't they actually BE really cool?

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Both of those suggestions sound really cool, they would have to be extended to all Terminators in the game simultaneously, however. I can understand Terminators not being able to sweeping advance, as by default their powerfists would have them inflicting -2 to -7ish checks all the time. But the only ones who feel truly difficult to kill are the 3+invul ones. I feel all Terminator armor granting a 4+ invul instead of a 5+ would remedy this, and also make the shooty terminators more desirable. Though this is likely to be generally too good. It would actually be coolest for Chaos -- that mark that adds +1 to invuls would allow them to field a THSS equivalent terminator.

I agree with it conferring eternal warrior to ICs. Right now there is literally no benefit to the terminator armor at all for most SM ICs.

I really miss the self-created ICs. Some of the old ones were truly killer. I used to run a Librarian as my chapter master...something I can never believably do again unless I jump on the bandwagon and use the Wolves dex.

[Ghoulio]

@ SombreBrotherhood: I have to say that I really like how they are dealing with IC's in the new book. I really like how they have given each character a very defined role. SM Captains are good in CC, Chaplains no longer are hand to hand beasts but are support characters that greatly help out units they join, and the librarians have had their CC stats decreased while having their pyshic power increased (ie focusing on what they SHOULD be doing).

I also think that the examples you give for units that are the same points as Terminators but are vastly better are slightly flawed. Both of the units you listed only have a 5+ invuln save, not a 3+, and the best regular armor save they can get are a 3+. Really, if you think about it both really are FAR easier to kill then a large-ish unit of TH/SS terminators when using the right weapons. Nobz w/ power fists and cybork bodies are 50pts a model, not 40. Also, when comparing the terminators to Bloodcrushers, TH/SS termies are great against everything...but if you get say a Dreadnought in on bloodcrushers you have literally taken them out of the game.

It seems like some people in this thread dont really want an army book that is on par with what is coming out, they want something considerably more powerful. If you look at the current SM book it is a very competive book, with tonnes of new, really fun and interesting options. This is of course just my personal opinion :)

[EmperorEternalXIX]

While I agree that it can be competitive...not all of us want to be Vulkan or Pedro. Why are these two guys better than Marneus !@#$ing Calgar, anyway?

All marine HQ stats are horribly wrong. For example, you may be right about decreasing the Librarian's CC ability (in the old codex he could be initiative 6 and have a base of 5 or 6 attacks, I think). But where is the justification for weakening his wounds? Or the Chaplain's, for that matter? These things weren't overpowered, really. The only reason people chose the chaplain so much is still there -- he has a free invul and the same attacks as a base leader does. Now, they just made the Captain have the same free invul, no real differences.

The nerf was pretty needless, especially after conventions were so established and relatively leveled. What other army has an HQ choice that is T4, 2 wounds, no invul, no eternal warrior, and base 2 attacks...for 230 points?

[Crae]

Just give me a close combat weapon... that's all I want!
......
Vulkan is not over-powered. The only unit that can even get thunderhammers any more are CC Terminators. Sergeants can't have them anymore. Twin-linked flamers and meltas are nice, but both are short range weapons. If flamers are ruining your day then stop bunching up your troops! If they're spaced out 2 inches apart your can usually only get 4 or 5 guys with a flamer template.

Multimeltas that aren't mounted on vehicles are hard to use, because you have to sit for a full turn to fire it and hope the enemy vehicle doesn't just drive away. And while the multimelta is shooting at the vehicle, the rest of the squad just has to twiddle their thumbs. The only vehicle mounted ones you get are on dreadnoughts, landspeeders, and LR crusaders......

Totally agree on the extra CC weapon for Tac's, but when it comes to options to chose to use with Vulkan, there are a lot more then you list.
-Chapter master, Captain, Forgemaster, Techmarine.
-Chapter champion that can challenge IC's to 1 on 1 and not be hit (a bit weird) with a reroll to hit and rerolll one wound 4 attacks.
-Command squads-Thunder hammers all over the place
-Sternguards, Combi flamers and two heavy flamers (assault btw) that all get twin linked
-Ordinary termies with Heavy flamer
-Servitors with Multimeltas
-Legion of the damned- Relentless (albeit S & P) and can get Melta and Multimelta on the run, Deep striking and shooting a twinlinked M-melta with 3+ inv. save to keep them close by as they move and shoot.
-Landspeeder storm- multimelta, scout and can carry scouts.
-Vanguards- T-Hammers (and S-shield btw) marry go around (meaning all can have it.
-Assaultsquads- 2 flamers
-All Landraiders - have a Multimelta pintle option, not just the LR crusader.
-Bike squads with Attack bike- 2x meltagun or 2x flamers, 1 multimelta, 12 inch relentless move, or 24 inch turbo boost 3+ cover save and then 12 inch relentless move
-3x attackbikes with Multimeltas, relentless (in effect 24"+12"=36 inch Multimelta shoots) that can tuboboost too. 2 wound models.


So loads and loads of options to take if you want to go insane and spam the Vulkan melting pot build.

[SombreBrotherhood]

@ Ghulio: Yes, I was choosing certain examples in an attempt to make my point, but it's only the TH/SS option that gets the 3++. As us longtime SM players know, it isn't that hard to fail it. When the 'crushers hit and wound on 3+, you're losing dudes, and in an attempt to preserve the squad, you'll take those wounds on the people most likely to survive (TH/SS) who are simultaneously the most likely to hurt your foes. That's a little crippling in a 5 man squad. Plus, Fred with lightning claws or Jimbo with a SB/PF is still just a 5++. When the 5-man Bloodcrushers or the 5-man Nobs (complete with wound-maxing loadouts) charge the five Terminators it is not going to be a pretty sight. Even the Terms charging isn't pretty, as the most survivable ones go last, and hope that your enemies aren't in cover - you go last again. The only way to overcome that is an LRC, and when you're taking 200 points for 5 dudes, why not go whole hog and buy them a 250 point transport, too? :)

What gets me is the fact that it's so easy (mass attacks) to kill "The Emperor's Finest" in their best wargear and another wound or T5 would go a long way towards rectifying that and making them truly Elite in the face of other armies heavy hitters.

[therealjohnny5]

While I agree that it can be competitive...not all of us want to be Vulkan or Pedro. Why are these two guys better than Marneus !@#$ing Calgar, anyway?

All marine HQ stats are horribly wrong. For example, you may be right about decreasing the Librarian's CC ability (in the old codex he could be initiative 6 and have a base of 5 or 6 attacks, I think). But where is the justification for weakening his wounds? Or the Chaplain's, for that matter? These things weren't overpowered, really. The only reason people chose the chaplain so much is still there -- he has a free invul and the same attacks as a base leader does. Now, they just made the Captain have the same free invul, no real differences.

The nerf was pretty needless, especially after conventions were so established and relatively leveled. What other army has an HQ choice that is T4, 2 wounds, no invul, no eternal warrior, and base 2 attacks...for 230 points?

I'd have to agree, CC weapons only make sense, especially fluff wise. Also i'd love to have the option in a Tac squad to take 2 assault weapons rather than 1 hvy and 1 assault... SM's are supposed to be these inhuman badbooty's and in gaming terms only come partially through.

While i would love the CC weapon, the HQ's are whats wack. The wounds and lack of commander like benefits as you say Emperor is a drag. the only affordable HQ's aren't really much better than a Sgt and cost 100 pts vanilla. I look at my friends Tau command squads for 150 pts and the simple amounts of wounds and saves then just shake my head.

Then the IC's points are way off. I'm sorry but as a RG player yes i obviously take shrike however as much as Fleet is awesome and i use the hell out of it, he can only infiltrate in one out of 3 games and he cost 195 pts with a 3+ save...awesome.

and there's Vulkan who basically twin link's everything. and he costs less? hmmm

[40kGamer]

"If I gave any player who is a regular of another army this codex and ripped the Vulkan and Pedro pages out, they would lose. No doubt in my mind."

I believe Vulkan offers the most powerful build options out of all of the Special characters but I routinely win with either the Khan or just a plain Captain on a SM Bike. A fast SM bike army can focus a lot of pain on a small part of the enemy line and does quite well against most other builds. It struggles a little against Eldar and Dark Eldar as it looses the advantage of speed... And if you draw a tournament table that has a boat load of difficult terrain you are seriously limited. The Khan is pretty awesome when you add a tooled up HQ squad on bikes with him. Outflanking is also a lot better than most people give it credit for too.

It does seem silly that tactical marines do not have an extra CCW. CSM and SW both have them now. Plus the SW Long Fangs are a lot more affordable and flexible than devastators!

[RocketRollRebel]

Marines are just fine. They don't have any overtly crappy units nor are they OP. GW did a great job on this codex if you ask me. Its got lots of fluff and flavor and variety while still allowing you to build a competitive army.

[Lhu27]

have 2 marine armies also have 3k of guard 3k of orkz and 8k of nids. My marine armies are as follows

1 the crimson ravens use drop pods and if I can thunderhawks (cant wait for plastic thunderhawk)
2 Sons of Izan a mech sm force that uses rhinos and armor (use SW codex use to use trait that let you have two special weapons)

Every codex has it things that could be tweaked. Been playing marines alot lately because my other armies are in NJ right now and i live in Texas at the moment.

Any way here is what i would fix.

1. Terminators should be a 4+ invunl save as it stands right now no one takes none ss terminators because of the 3+ save. Apply this 4+ save every where chaos,Sw, BA, DA. Terminators have been described as wading through firestorms a 4+ invuln will make them play like they are carrying cover with them.

2. CCW for marines and a 1 point increase. Marines are suppose to be able to deal with anything

3. Plastic ThunderHawk with the valk in the skies now all 40k armies should be getting flyers and aa weapons. This isnt a SM wish its more of a change in how the game is being battled out, and all armies need to be brought up to speed. Orkz need Fightas etc.

4.The pred is fine its the defensive weapons rule that is jacked up.You can get a pred with autocannon for 65 pts i believe that's a deal.

5. ATSKNF regroup no matter what.

[Melissia]

Predator with TLAC and sponson HBs is something like 85 points. That's a steal to me, extremely cheap for how effective it is.

[DevilUknow]

I'd like to see the Chapter Tactics taken off special characters and made into options for Captains/Chapter Masters.

I think the "Master of the ____" titles being purchasable is a cool idea as well.

The option for basic marines to take an extra H2H weapon I think is over the top unless the basic marine's cost is increased.

LS Storms need to be either a dedicated transports OR storms should be able to be taken in squadrons.

[Crae]

5. ATSKNF regroup no matter what.

Can't regroup if there is an enemy within 6" or it is out of coherency.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

He's saying he'd LIKE it to be that way, not that it IS.

[Ming]

Hmmmm. Just simply...put in WD a list of additional characters...One makes assault squads troops. One makes devs scoring. Look at all the cool Badab War units and characters. How hard would it be to add (for any codex) characters and special units back in WD. Gimmy back a reason to buy WDs, and do Chapter approved compendiums at years end. I don't need a codex to have fun....

[MajorSoB]

Enough freaking whining about have a close combat weapon! I'll tell you what if you grant Chaos and every other army the ATSKNF as well as the combat squad ability, sure, then you can have that close combat weapon you like to whine about. Hell I'll take some speeders too, maybe a few dreadnaughts that dont go crazy and some cheap heavy weapons too. Yep gimme all that crap and you get your damned close combat weapon.

In other words, the codex is good as it stands!

[entendre_entendre]

the only way tac squads should get an extra ccw is by having an HQ that grants that ability for a cost (almost like a trait or something...) otherwise they're just chaos, only better.
vulkan's ability should only effect certain units (ex: elite units, representing that they get the best swag, etc), right now, it's too open for abuse.
tac's being able to get 2 SW's i'll accept (dangerously close to traitors though...)
i think a "bolter drill" style power for tac squads a-la 3rd ed sgt lysander would be cool, as it'll (hopefully) encourage people to start using their bolters for something other than decoration.
SM's should not be better than everyone else as an army, they should have their advantages, but they do need drawbacks as well, otherwise there is a massive balance issue. it seems that people on here just want SM's to be the end-all-and-be-all of armies, and i find that a little juvenile. i mean SM's get a new 'dex first thing into a new edition anyways, so you won't be waiting as long as other armies (insert constantly complained about army here).
jeez, if you want SM's to be ridiculous, just play the "movie space marine" rules, which'll likely be the 6th edition rules anyway... :p

[EmperorEternalXIX]

It has nothing to do with wanting them to be ridiculous, though. The Space Marine codex has more drawbacks in it then benefits. What bothers me is that other armies do not seem to have this.

The Imperial Guard codex justifies its power by saying that the guy's stats are ****ty, and that is supposed to level it all off. Similar points are made about the orks. In the Space Marine army, it is almost the other way around -- "These guys have good stats, so we'd better make them play ****ty or else they will win all the time." The Codex Astartes looms over all of us, yielding no benefits whatsoever and being a simple fluff justification for a lot of limitations that other power armor armies do not have to endure.

[entendre_entendre]

advantages: ATSKNF; regroup helper + not auto killed when caught in combat, works well when you can basically use hit and run to flee then blast the crap out of your opponent next turn
some cheap vehicles depending on setup (predator/whirlwind)
3+ armour; (stay with me) can statistically shrug off 2/3 of "standard" wounds
combat squads for objective missions
really cool builds (biker army, etc)

disadvantages: low #'s; always outnumbered, unless fighting GK or DW
need to take 10 guys to get a HW, which half the time isn't used, or wastes usefulness of squad
some vehicles aren't good enough to take often (predator)
abundance of AP3/AP2 weapons really harms 3+ armour
combats squads don't pack enough of a punch
HQ nerf (chaplains, etc) only combat monster could be captain
only some builds are seen to be "competitive"

solution: lower points back to 15/model, but have same equip.
10 guys get 2 SW's or a SW or HW ( just like chaos)
fix vehicles so some are worth taking
bring back ranks of HQ's w/ different stats
traits for different builds that have actual advantages & disadvantages for a point cost

i see your points, there need to be a few changes, but not too many, b/c if you look, space marines are actually fairly balanced, but they're just not OMG PWN FTW like some other army builds. essentially what i'm getting here is that you want to have more than 2 competitive builds. understandable. hopefully GW changes 6th ed cover saves to 5+ so that'll take down the hoard a bit. space marines look like a straightforward army but they require a bit more finesse than before. but still at least your codex isn't craptastic like the 'crons, and it has actual background that the fans (seem to) like, unlike CSM. so take the middle ground and await the first 6th edition codex. just my $0.02

[Crae]

Enough freaking whining about have a close combat weapon! I'll tell you what if you grant Chaos and every other army the ATSKNF as well as the combat squad ability, sure, then you can have that close combat weapon you like to whine about. Hell I'll take some speeders too, maybe a few dreadnaughts that dont go crazy and some cheap heavy weapons too. Yep gimme all that crap and you get your damned close combat weapon.

In other words, the codex is good as it stands!

Mate..if you don't like the subject, don't read it. The post is about "wishing stuff" Not about absoloutly getting stuff.

And fine....you get the dreadnoughts, landspeeders, atsknf, combat squads and what not, If I get the demon prince (inc. lash and warp time), obliterators, Cult marines and cult marks and fearless, Defilers (sooooo nice), super cheap greater demon and ordinary spacemarines that can infiltrate. Hmmm....now that I think about it...you go play spacemarines and I will go play chaos, since your so unhappy about your army and envy spacemarines so much ?!

No one is saying the codex is not okay, we are just saying there are stuff that isn't working. Just as chaos player's wish for a legions codex, we wish for a codex where we don't need to depend on two builds, to be competitive. Chaos has its good sides and its bad sides and the same goes for spacemarines. I don't freaking get why you need to get so hussy about a discussion.

[Melissia]

some vehicles aren't good enough to take often (predator)

I hate it when people say this. The predator IS worth taking. 85 points for the amount of shots it puts out at BS4 is dirt cheap, leaving you with a lot more points to spend elsewhere.

[Crae]

I hate it when people say this. The predator IS worth taking. 85 points for the amount of shots it puts out at BS4 is dirt cheap, leaving you with a lot more points to spend elsewhere.

agreed...cheaper then a bare bone devastator squad when it comes to anti infantry or anti tank, just not as easy to hide or as versatile as devastators. It reminds me of the landspeeder vs. attack bike discussion.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

I consider the predator the only heavy support choice in the codex worth using.

Whirlwind is great against hordes, but nothing else.

Land raider is worthless on its own other than as a bullet magnet, and unless you turn that 250 point tank into a 500+ point target by putting something killy in there, then no one will really care about it much.

Devastators. All I will say is LOL. 230 points for a five man squad that can't move FTL.

Thunderfire cannon is the fastest hundred points you never spent. Unless you take three (which is admittedly not a bad idea), it will be dead by turn 2 or 3. Usually one turn after you get a shot off, if the guy gets the chance to fire earlier it'll be dead BEFORE it fires once. IG players have similarly fumed about some of their vehicles having potency but not viable survivability in a similar regard, but this is not the same as the thunderfire cannon. A lucky heavy bolter can kill a thunderfire cannon, even in cover. And when the fragile IG vehicles get off their shot, it is usually A.) really brutal or B.) they are surrounded by other more pressing targets that makes them live longer.

The Vindicator will be blown up fast because people are scared of Str10 ordnance, and it's armor on the sides is weak. It's short range and weak armor make it an easy target, and since it has no turret, it is virtually guaranteed to expose it's weak sides to high strength weapons in the process of trying to get a valuable shot off. On top of all this, all of the vehicle damage chart can neutralize it, and anything above a weapon destroyed results takes your 115+ tank out of the game completely (unless you have ever won a game with a storm bolter. I haven't. Have you?)

WHoever made the tank commander cost 70 points should be shot in the face with a nailgun; I bet GW didn't sell a single one of this guy's ugly model.

The Predator is the best choice; among the cheapest, it has the best vehicle armor for the best cost. Adding three vehicles with armor 13 facing the enemy can do a lot of damage. The autocannons also have a decent chance to penetrate light armor and are the closest thing we have to viable long range anti tank without investing retardedly huge amounts of points.

The land speeders are also much better than the attack bikes, in most situations. Faster, more versatile, the squadron will live much longer than an attack bike squad will, and their versatile weaponry lets them do more.

[Katie Drake]

I hate it when people say this. The predator IS worth taking. 85 points for the amount of shots it puts out at BS4 is dirt cheap, leaving you with a lot more points to spend elsewhere.

No, it's not. It's a piece of crap. Assuming we're talking about the dakka Pred, we have a tank with an autocannon and two heavy bolter sponsons. Assuming we're shooting at some Orks, let's run through the math. Note: I'm really, really poor at math so if there are any mistakes I'd really appreciate it if anyone could point them out for the sake of learning on my part.

2 autocannon shots = 1.6 hits and approximately 1 wound. After the 4+ cover save that everyone gets (assuming their armor save isn't better for whatever reason) we've killed half an Ork.

The heavy bolter sponsons spray 6 shots. That's 4 hits and around three wounds, which results in 1.5 dead Orks, for a grand total in 2 dead Orks per phase. Assuming that the average game lasts 6 turns and that the Predator is able to fire every single turn and never loses any weapons, we're talking 12 dead Orks. That's only 72 points of kills. That's not even enough for the Predator to kill its points worth.

Against the increasing number of vehicles, things are even worse. Let's assume that we're gonna dakka at a Rhino full of whatever. The heavy bolters probably won't even get a glance per turn, and the autocannon should get a glancing or penetrating hit about 50% of the time it fires. Again... not too fantastic unfortunately.

If anyone has an alternate view on this, I'd be very happy to hear it. Please, discuss.

[Craz]

My wishlist isn't particularly for new units, but rather for new sprues for the tactical squads. They're dull, to be honest. The SW sprue is really showing off what GW can do, and I cann't wait to see what else we can get.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Regarding the Predator, when you detonate an ork's trukk at 47" with the autocannon, or blow a hole in the rear armor of an unsuspecting valkyrie across the table, it becomes a lot more useful. I would never take any other heavy support choice only because the predator is the most versatile of the choices for the least points.

[Duke]

Though I do think that a dakka pred is cool for the points I would have to say that the most versitile vehicle in the SM armoury is the Land Speeder. I almost never have games where they don't get their points back.

Duke

[40kGamer]

I love Landspeeders! If I take anything from the Heavy Support section it's a Whirlwind or 2. I prefer my army to be on the move.

[Melissia]

Though I do think that a dakka pred is cool for the points I would have to say that the most versitile vehicle in the SM armoury is the Land Speeder. I almost never have games where they don't get their points back.

Duke

Sure, but that's an FA choice, not an HS choice, IIRC.

[Katie Drake]

If I take anything from the Heavy Support section it's a Whirlwind or 2.

Yup, I'm with you there. Whirlwinds are, in my opinion, the best Heavy Support choice for any non-Blood Angels Space Marine army. Blood Angels are a bit different - it's the Baal Predator that really shines.

[40kGamer]

The BAAL predator is almost enough of an excuse for me to do a BA army. :D

[Duke]

I generally take 2 Baal Preds with Hvy bolter sponsons and if I have extra points I throw on a storm bolter... I love it! Baal is a super dakka pred.

Duke