So, has 6th Edition changed your list writing?

[Mr Mystery]

Evening all!

Just been wandering around in the tactics forum, and I'm struck by how many 'unit x, or unit y' discussion there currently are. So I thought it would make an interesting discussion point overall. Hence the thread (yay!)

So clue is in the title. How, if at all, has the advent of 6th Edition changed your list writing?

As I play Necrons, I'm fielding a *lot* of infantry, on account there is precious little they can't handle, and all can hold objectives. Back it up with a little firebase type tanks and I'm good to go. Oh, and my fliers. Gotta love the fliers! In all, not so different to my 5th Edition Necrons. Yet I find the choice between Tesla and Gauss Immortals much closer, thanks to the small buff rapid fire was given, and I'm ever more impressed by my Destroyers, thanks to preferred enemy.

But how about you guys? Are you finding previous 'no brainers' (whether intertubes advised, or personal choice) no facing stiffer competition from their peers? Banshees for instance. With the change to Power Weapons, Scorpions now have an edge against 2+ Saves, as the higher strength and attacks mean more than the power weapon.

Are you seeing new variety amongst your opponents? If so what?

[Black Hydra]

Well I unfortunately have not played 6th ed yet (dammit I want to get back home already), but having tailored my list to reflect more Necron infantry than vehicles (only run 3 to 4 at the most in most games) I can say that Gauss is both good and bad. Especially when it comes to Immortals. Reason is that we'll see less vehicles on the battlefield especially when they face us Necron players. Fielding both Immortals and Warriors is the best way to go as Warriors can reliably glance many vehicles to death. With a max amount of 20 Warriors you'll get 2 glances which will kill most transports. This means you don't necessarily have to take Gauss Immortals except when facing lots of 4+ armor saves. Tesla will be far more useful as it can potentially net you back missed shots and deal with the increase in infantry. I'll still use Gauss Immortals but Tesla works just fine as well.

So my list won't change much as I already had planned to assemble some Tesla Immortals and was already fielding a hybrid list with mostly troops. Although it must be said that some Res Orbs go a long way towards trolling your opponent.

[Toyz n the Hood]

I used to use Reserves to protect a lot of my men at the end of fifth - with a deep striking 'nid army and a Dark Eldar army. Not being able to do that has changed my game massively and i'm now trying more monstrous creatures to get across the table in my 'nids. With my Dark Eldar I've added in more units of Wracks so i can take the pounding for being on the table right from the start.

It's great though, I'm not upset with any changes but I do find myself looking at units that i'd never take before in a whole new light.

[bfmusashi]

The new reserves limitations have made me rewrite my lists, no more raining stormtrooper assassins and outflanking everything else. It's changed the way I look at my lists and the table. I still haven't been able to make a GK list since the codex change (I just don't see how one makes that 'dex into an all comers list).

[gendoikari87]

All terminator army now. Seriously my 1500 point army is nothing but 31 terminators.

[Mr Mystery]

Deathwing or Grey Knights?

[Black Hydra]

I was about to ask the same thing but then I realized the context of bfmusashi's own post. Grey Knights, right?

[gendoikari87]

Deathwing or Grey Knights?

Me? Grey knights.

[KrewL RaiN]

My lists have changed a little bit. I am currently putting Adrenal Glands on my Gargoyles. A fellow member of the swarm pointed out its totally worth it now. I also try to have a good ballance of psychic synapse creatures and never leave home without Ymgarl Genestealers. I haven't played my Daemons and Orks yet as I am trying to learn the rules with the army I am most familiar with. My Orks may not change much, but with my Daemons, I am probaly going to be more Tzeentch orientated.

[DarkLink]

All terminator army now. Seriously my 1500 point army is nothing but 31 terminators.

I'd do that. Unfortunately, the local game store has a comp system, and they've decided that expensive units are bad.

So I use the power armor version of this list. 50+ GKs is tough to deal with even if they don't all have Terminator armor.

[Uncle Nutsy]

well, my de list hasn't changed much at all.

3x ravagers with dual venoms is still pretty mice, backed with beastmasters, trueborn and hellions.

but since there are people out there who are going full terminator lists, it should do just as well. if not better.


I'm also considering going either tau/corsair eldar, de/corsair eldar or tau/de. those hornets and jump pack troops are just so drool worthy, and the beastmasters/hellions are just swank.

[badlybuilt]

Only thing that has changed for me is the repentia are taking a back seat for the time being. More flamers and heavy weapons rather than meltaguns. Also retributors are making a comeback in my lists.

Half tempted to drop IG units in there for some psyker action, but that is alot of coin for a little oooh and aaah.

[gendoikari87]

I'd do that. Unfortunately, the local game store has a comp system, and they've decided that expensive units are bad.

So I use the power armor version of this list. 50+ GKs is tough to deal with even if they don't all have Terminator armor.

They might change their minds when they see my terminators. LONG LIVE THE MECHANICUS!!!!!!!!!!! HAIL TO THE OMNISSIAH!11

[Mr Mystery]

I'd do that. Unfortunately, the local game store has a comp system, and they've decided that expensive units are bad.

So I use the power armor version of this list. 50+ GKs is tough to deal with even if they don't all have Terminator armor.

You have my sympathy dude. I bloody hate comp for that very reason. Nothing worse than having someone dictating what you must use. In Fantasy, Ogres are my main army, and I run two Hordes. But most tournaments seem to prohibit this. Why? Your guess is as good as mine!

[Diagnosis Ninja]

I suddenly have psykers as Dark Eldar, 'course I have :P

Also: Vypers. Squadrons are really cool when you have so many light vehicles. The weapons are gravy.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

All terminator army now. Seriously my 1500 point army is nothing but 31 terminators.

My list of a simliar concution (more dreads), either owns or... Well goes against my friend who plays Chaos and bassicaly only takes Plasma, Obliterators and Vindicators :L

[Xenith]

Nope.

Blood Angels 1500pts, 2 tactical squads, assault squad, dev squad, death company, attack bikes, librarian.

[SotonShades]

Difficult to say for me. I've been playing a campaign with my Orks, so have been playing a very fluffy list in that. At least It hasn't been tailored to take advantage of any particular rules in 6th. Then again, it is primarilly jetbike mounted (gotta love Deffkoptas) so got a decent boost.

I've only played a couple of games with my Marines and changed my list radically from what I had been doing in 5th. but that was beacuse it was a fairly hard tournament list and I wanted a change of pace when playing at my gaming club. Nothing really to do with 6th. Hopefulyl as I get more games in though, I'll tweak and optimise the list a bit more.

[DrLove42]

Not dramatically. I'm still using roughly the same list i was in the last few weeks of 5th.

But thats what you get with an Old old codex....not much in terms of change.

I haven't re-done a DE or Tau list yet, but i'd imagine they'll have a lot of similarites with their old lists

[DrBored]

As I play Chaos Marines, there's not a whole lot of wiggle room. In terms of competitiveness though, I'm learning to play a 'shoot and forget' army. In other words, I focus on shooting power and forget about the rest. No Aspiring Champions, minimal Sorcerer HQ, and as many Oblits and Plasma guns as I can fit in the list. Sometimes I don't even bother with Rhinos either.

I have been playing around with Fortifications and Allies. I'll take IG plasma vets with a Primaris Psyker as my allies and an Aegis Defense Line, but I don't go too crazy with it. The bulk of the force is still Oblits and Plague Marines.

[Denzark]

My Khorne Army has retired until codex. Instead I am running icons of Slaanesh everywhere, to get that extra I point.

[KrewL RaiN]

It does feel like CC units got kicked in the nuts this edition. Khorne is indeed angry. Dunno if I will run the bulk of my Khorne daemons again, though the Bloodthirster got a bit nastier.

[SotonShades]

I'd ask Night System about that. He runs an annoyingly succesful pure Khorne Deamon force. Well, at least it is annoyingly successful against me at any rate :P

[entendre_entendre]

For my Guard? Not really, my Vendetta just got better and all my blast weapons got better. The only thing I'm debating now is whether or not it's worth the 30 pts to shell out for krak grenades on my blob or not and if taking a LRD is better than my Medusa.

My CSM are awaiting a new book, for now they are my 'fun' army which I've been messing around with Allies with so the list changes around quite a bit, but the core more or less remains the same.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Well, 6th got me to write some lists and play some games for the first time in about 12 years, that's a change!

Further, though, I got less worried about not having a transport for all my tactical squads, and I've been very reluctant to go to battle without at least a level one Librarian.

[Anggul]

Well with my Tau I've gone the obvious route of Blacksuns for all, my Eldar have stayed pretty much the same (very little has actually changed for them as of yet).

My Dark Eldar have formed a union to make the Archon stop spending so much on his now not-so-scary stuff, and relegated him to Agoniser-Shadowfield duty (with a PGL for the Incubi). Said Archon and Incubi are also now not allowed near Terminators, as since their power fields started mysteriously malfunctioning in the presence of a 2+ save, their only use now is to point at 3+ save units and pretty much guarantee death. The fact that we no longer pay 10pts for a Flickerfield due to the new Jink rules is a fairly large saving across the army. Splinter Racks are now making an appearance on my Warrior Raiders, as the new rapid-fire rules as well as being able to snap-fire when you move 12" means they will actually be very useful, mainly moving 6", getting the 5+ Jink save and being able to fire 24" with extreme accuracy, or move 12" and fire with less (but it's better than the previous nothing).

Oh, and I plan on trying out Drazhar, just because many of the new rules have improved him. It might work out well, I might just come to the quite likely conclusion that I'd rather just spend that large amount of points on more squads.

The seemingly pointless Furious Charge nerf means that my Tyranids have all traded in their Adrenal Glands for Toxin Sacs. Other than that, and the newfound playability of a winged Hive Tyrant, my Tyranids have stayed the same.

[Mr Mystery]

Cool cool. Thank you for your contributions!

So, are there significant changes in 'the meta' that you've noticed? I see a common thread is a reduction in transport usage, which is understandable, but is there any other spam build emerging to replace it?

And in terms of countering this, how are people arming their squads?

[Cap'nSmurfs]

With challenges and precision shots/strikes, there's a big incentive to kit out, say, tactical squad sergeants a bit better, something I was loath to consider before. I'm going to make some with power weapons and plasma pistols, for sure.

I've also made a couple of plasma guns to replace the flamers against tougher opponents - but flamers themselves are seriously good now, not least in overwatch.

I've always liked heavy bolters, but now that weight of fire glancing is so lethal and a limited ability to move and fire exists (better with three shots than one!), I'm seriously considering getting some more in.

Oh, and I've played all my games with a Stormtalon so far. It's awesome. I'm not writing a list without it, for the time being. :D

[Mr Mystery]

I wonder if we might see more combi weapons in Marine squads (and Chaos Marine, at least I think that's an option)

Sure you can only fire it once, but the chance of precision-shooting someone in the face with a plasma blast is quite tempting to me, especially if it's some kind of horrendous CC unit. I mean consider Striking Scorpions. The Exarch can do horrible, horrible things in HTH, so any chance to drop him as he charges in has to be appealing! (yes I know it's fairly unlikely, but given the cheapness of Combi weapons, I reckon it's a worthy investment)

[Anggul]

Cool cool. Thank you for your contributions!

So, are there significant changes in 'the meta' that you've noticed? I see a common thread is a reduction in transport usage, which is understandable, but is there any other spam build emerging to replace it?

And in terms of countering this, how are people arming their squads?

I think losing most of their transports will just hurt most people. Having a transport is still better than being shot at by everything. For 35pts a Rhino is still well worth it. A lot of people have (for no real reason) just seen the talk about hull points and decided that transports suddenly aren't much good anymore. I shall laugh when I start dropping templates and lord knows what else on them and they wish they had paid the 35pts.

[Mr Mystery]

To be fair it's still early days. Certain changes cause jitters, and people (over?) react to them. Once the jitters have settled down, I think we'll see transports being used a bit more, though not likely at 5th Edition levels!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Transports are still good, they just needn't be ubiquitous. Which is where they should be, I think.

And yeah, combiweapons! My sternguard have three, my librarian has one - I need to find more! :D

[the jeske]

you play normal marines right ? because for BA/SW/chaos non assault ramp transports are rather bad.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Ultramarines, yeah. I don't think they're bad as such, you just have to plan ahead. And bolter-shocking Tactical Squads are as good as ever. It does mean that Assault Vehicles are off the hook, however (which is why I roll with a Land Raider for my Terminators - the regular Land Raider, like Tactical Terminators, is really good this time out).

My current tactical thinking is to have footsloggers take nearby objectives / form a defensive wall while the Command Squads, Terminators and another Tactical Squad go doing an armoured fist routine - punching through one side of the enemy line all together and supporting each other. Terminators blaze away and assault, the tactical squad blasts another squad, the Command Squad line up for a second assault in the next turn (hoping that the damage wrought + feel no pain + cover from well placed vehicles will protect them, which it should).

And a Stormtalon buzzes around raising hell. :)

[Archon Charybdis]

The Jeske specifically mentioned BA, SW, and Chaos though, armies that are assault heavy with limited access to Assault Vehicles. In 6th ed, non-assault transports are just not good choices for melee troops. Assuming you advance in your transport turn 1, disembark turn 2, you're still waiting till turn 3 before you can assault and have to endure a round of shooting you ostensibly paid for the transport to avoid. If you foot slog it, you can reasonably assault on turn 2, quite easily if Fleet, and you're saving yourself points on a transport that's not providing all that much real benefit.

For shooting units, the functionality of a transport is basically unchanged (minus 2'' disembark). Melee units are quite a different story.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

BA transports are fast, and they have other ways to get at the enemy - airdropping dreadnoughts and deepstriking land raiders! So you just have to support or screen them with other units, use cover and so on. Rhinos make a good second wave now, I think.

I'm just thinking aloud, but it does feel like some of the 'it's bad' talk is rushing to a conclusion. It just needs rethinking, not junking. And yes, mechanised transports are not as essential as they were.

I mean, I assume y'all are playing games with terrain and more than one unit :D

As to wolves, Grey Hunters are as good as 'in your face' infantry get. Use them to shield their inexperienced, close combat brothers.

Chaos is about to change, but I suspect the same principles apply.

I agree they're not as good, but not worth giving up over. A rhino is only 35 points.

[Anggul]

Well transports aren't about rushing up to the enemy in the open, jumping out and letting loose. They're now for re-deploying and getting into a position where you can get out, then next turn move into combat position. This is especially evident in the inability to disembark and assault from any non-assault vehicle. I think it's better this way, and does make more sense. They're still good for protecting your troops at range to get into position, but you no longer have the silly situations which a transport shouldn't be used for, i.e. driving straight at the enemy and falling on them out of the doors without retaliation.

They're still good, but you have to use them differently. For example, I'm still going to be giving my Howling Banshees a Wave Serpent, but I'm going to have to be careful to position it well and defend the paths to good firing positions against them so that they can get out safely, then move in and charge in the next turn. It really makes you think about the field more, making you consider various possibilities and positioning, which I think is great, and much more fun and interesting than just 'drive up, get out, fire'.

[Uncle Nutsy]

yeah the biggest thing I like about vehicles in this edition, is even if you do get a hullpoint or two whacked off, you're still in the fight and not watching however points you paid sit there and just drool like it's punch-drunk.

6th is closer to the way I like to play. With the ability to counter, outflank via movement, reduce a unit's effectiveness by driving a wedge through it, leapfrogging units and just generally being able to adapt better to the ebb and flow of the game, I find it to be a much more rewarding game experience. Thanks GW, you made the tactician in me very happy.

[Filthspew]

I agree that transports now rely on the use of our brains :)

My CSM pure Nurgle is being totally rewritten.

From assault to shooting.

If the rumors hold true, it will remain a CSM army and not plague marines as it used to be.

Since my first game, I had champ and fist in every squad.

Now they are gone, all of them.

There is one character, the demon prince with wings and doombolt (or whatever I roll), mainly to get DtW 5+.

Rhinos with CSM go 18", next turn 6" and get out, shoot 24".

If deployed 12" onto the table, i am rapid firing your table edge on turn two!

Mmmmmwwwuuuuuuaahaaaahahahahahaha :)

[Uncle Nutsy]

I'm also considering an interdiction force/armored spearhead combo with tau using the allies' rules (can tau ally with themselves?). Interdiction force will consist of r'myr/ tetras/plasma toting piranha tx42's/hazard suits and the spearhead will consist heavily of plasma turreted hammerheads with lots of missile pod toting crisis suits and shadowsun leading the way.

if it works, it will just be a staggering amount of AP2 on the board.

[Filthspew]

I'm also considering an interdiction force/armored spearhead combo with tau using the allies' rules (can tau ally with themselves?).

At 2000 pts the double FOC effectively does what you want :)

Tau can bring a lot of AP2 but its not cheap.

Everybody is in panick about the boost to 2+ but really, only difference is power weapons.

If you are banshee heavy eldar, yes its big.

But it has allways been numbers of saves that took out terminators, and it still is.

IMO, the new feel no pain and instant death (one toughness) rules have a much bigger impact on the game.

That probably affects 5 times as many models as the rules on power weapons do. :confused:

[Iyandagar]

Not really a ase of re writing my lists. I never go for a straight up destroy all list, I like to field models, units I like. However how I play has been overhauled, with pleasant results. Yesterday my Sisters took a Grey Knight list apart, a couple of lucky dice rolls admittedly helped... Still it was a little recompense for what happened on the world of Van Horne...