So, Westboro eh?

[Mr Mystery]

Well, we've got a gun thread running so we might as well touch on the wackier side of religion.

Namely, those crazy crazy kooks at the Westboro Baptist Church. So, I have to say, I don't see these guys as *anything* to do with any Religion ever conceived, even Arseholeism, which I have just invented just now which is about being a bit of a an arse to at least one person every day, double points awarded if they don't deserve it.... I see them as a thinly veiled legal firm intent on finding as many reasons to litigate against someone as possible.

And here's what I don't get. Whilst in Britain we too have free speech, we also have Hate Speech laws, which these guys would definitely fall foul of. Essentially whilst everyone has a legal entitlement to an opinion, if in espousing said opinion you encourage violence or bigotry against anyone then the law will have more than a word with you.

So surely the US must have similar laws. It makes no sense whatsoever to allow people to incite and encourage murder, regardless of where they claim those beliefs stem from?

[Kyban]

In the US you can't make direct threats but that's about it, people here take their freedom of speech very seriously. It's probably the least restricted country when it comes to speech.

[Mr Mystery]

In the US you can't make direct threats but that's about it, people here take their freedom of speech very seriously. It's probably the least restricted country when it comes to speech.

But surely publically praising any murder or death, and by association encouraging it is a clear abuse? As I said, in the UK I say whatever I want to my mates, but if I was to start espousing some of my more politically robust views, I would rightly be arrested and suitably punished.

[Kyban]

Yeah, it really is abusing the right to freedom of speech but when you start looking at restricting speech in any way people get edgy. It's a big point of contention but in the end the law allows it to happen.

[Mr Mystery]

Mental.

I'm genuinely surpised no one has tried to gun them down to be honest. And no, not espousing that. Far better to simply ridicule them using freedom of speech :)

Are their bizarre little pickets actually legal? I'm not expecting an expert answer btw!

[Kyban]

They're essentially just trolling, probably the only reason they're still alive is that most people are saner than they are. Everyone just learns to ignore or make fun of them like any troll.

[Mr Mystery]

I have the utmost respect to those who counterpicket, forming a human shield between the goons and the mourners. Though what I'd love to see is full on counter trolling. Get 20 chums, claim on the Westboro lot theatened you, and sue them there and then. All you need is a solid backing that out numbers them. Rinse and repeat a few times, and they'd cease to be a problem! They like the law so much? Use it against them in a way they can't fight!

[wittdooley]

That's actually been done. Most recently a church congregation formed a human wall around their Church to keep them from getting close.

They actually picketed the high school in the district my wife work's in because it's one of the first High Schools in the country (and the first in Ohio) to write into their school charter/constitution/code of ethics that GLBT Studnets are protected under all of the same anti-discriminatory bylaws as any other minority group, and allowing GLBT students to form School sponsored interest groups.

They're a bunch of fruit loops. If you want more of an insight into this crazy and dangerous sect of American Christianity, I recommend you check out the documentary "Jesus Camp." It's frightening and, quite frankly, puts these groups more or less on par with other extremist groups not unlike Al Quaeda.

[Wildeybeast]

We say it LGBT over here. It's the little differences that always amaze me. Anyone wanting a British view on these nutjobs should look up the documentaries Louis Theroux did for the BBC. Very insightful and gets glimpse of the humans behind the hate.

[DarkLink]

But surely publically praising any murder or death, and by association encouraging it is a clear abuse?

But they're not actually threatening anyone. They're just being massive *******s. And if you start the tumble down the slippery slope of thinking that it's fine to censor and destroy freedom of speech when you don't like it, some very dangerous, Orwellian things start happening. What happens when someone in power decides that espousing opposing political opinions is 'dangerous' and 'offensive' and stifles them?

Freedom of speech is vital to a free democracy. That means putting up with ************************ like Westboro.

If you want to see some pretty chilling stuff on what suppression of free speech can do to ruin people's lives, dig through this blog: http://www.popehat.com/ The guy's a lawyer who specializes in protecting free speech, and he fights against some pretty disgusting things.

[Mr Mystery]

But they're not actually threatening anyone. They're just being massive *******s. And if you start the tumble down the slippery slope of thinking that it's fine to censor and destroy freedom of speech when you don't like it, some very dangerous, Orwellian things start happening. What happens when someone in power decides that espousing opposing political opinions is 'dangerous' and 'offensive' and stifles them?

Freedom of speech is vital to a free democracy. That means putting up with ************************ like Westboro.

If you want to see some pretty chilling stuff on what suppression of free speech can do to ruin people's lives, dig through this blog: http://www.popehat.com/ The guy's a lawyer who specializes in protecting free speech, and he fights against some pretty disgusting things.

As I said, it's when you are publicly espousing violence and murder that you get nicked. It's fine to believe and hate what you want, but when you encourage others it's crossing the line.

Still. I'm expecting 'God Hates Scotland' any second. Parliament are to introduce Gay Marriage. Any institution can refuse the service, but the marriage will be full on. And people wonder why I'm proud of my roots??

[Psychosplodge]

We simply don't have free speech here.
Slander, liable, anti-discrimination laws see to that. Anybody who thinks otherwise is mistaken.

[Wolfshade]

We simply don't have free speech here.
Slander, liable, anti-discrimination laws see to that. Anybody who thinks otherwise is mistaken.

Exactly. I mean at work I cannot open/read/forward an email that may cause offense. I was like surely what causes offense is down to the individual, and how do I know if an email is going to cause offense unless I read it.
Sometimes the truth offends people, how can you convey that without offending?

[Psychosplodge]

Also sometimes people are far too easily offended...

[Wolfshade]

But, it does allow some fellow called Mitt Romney to refer to Ed Miliband as 'Mr Leader'

[Psychosplodge]

well there's no laws against people making an arse of themselves

[DrLove42]

If there was Cameron would be in f***ing prison

And Bush would have been executed for crimes against humanity

[Wildeybeast]

Exactly. I mean at work I cannot open/read/forward an email that may cause offense. I was like surely what causes offense is down to the individual, and how do I know if an email is going to cause offense unless I read it.
Sometimes the truth offends people, how can you convey that without offending?

How do you know if the email is going to cause offence until you have opened to see what's in it? That seems like a silly policy.

[Wolfshade]

Exactly.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Why do I keep reading the title as "So, Westeros eh?".

GODS, I'm addicted to Game of Thrones.

[Wolfshade]

Why do I keep reading the title as "So, Westeros eh?".

GODS, I'm addicted to Game of Thrones.

Product of a poorly operated state education system?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

My education and upbringing were fine, thank you.

[Psychosplodge]

Weren't you educated entirely under new labour?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I don't know/care.

[Wolfshade]

That is probably a "yes" then...
Also, I would imagine that it is because it should be spelt Westborough

[Kyban]

This (https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/7/25/WY1u8Ak9HkeCCJ766Muvlw2.png) is pretty funny. It'd be amusing to try. :p

[Psychosplodge]

Of course that as well, and Wolfie is probably right...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Well, not that I'm an expert, but isn't Westboro a brand of cigarettes?

[SotonShades]

This (https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/7/25/WY1u8Ak9HkeCCJ766Muvlw2.png) is pretty funny. It'd be amusing to try. :p

If only I had a credit card scheme like that...

[Wolfshade]

Well, not that I'm an expert, but isn't Westboro a brand of cigarettes?

I see what you did there :D

I would also suggest Kyban that that wouldn't be the best of things to do,

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

At least I got something right.

[Kyban]

I see what you did there :D

I would also suggest Kyban that that wouldn't be the best of things to do,

Yeah, it's not that realistic, I don't even have a chase card, pretty funny though.
I wonder if someone actually tried it, knowing the internet, probably.

[Wolfshade]

What I was meaning is that being intolerant to a group which shows intolerance to another group is a little hypocritical. One of the downsides to true freedom of speech is that you must defend its use even when you find what is being said offensive/biggotted/wrong.
As Ghandi said "Be the change you wish to see" or some such

[Drunkencorgimaster]

In the US you can't make direct threats but that's about it, people here take their freedom of speech very seriously. It's probably the least restricted country when it comes to speech.

I don't know...I hope you are correct but it seems like there is some inconsistency here from time to time.

What about those Islamist radicals at revolutionmuslim.com who "warned" Matt Stone and Trey Parker of Southpark and gave out their company's address? The feds (correctly in my opinion) read that as an invitation to vigilantism, and thus a threat, and threw the book at them.

However was what they did that much different than when Tina Fey read out attorney Pamela MacKey's name and address on Saturday Night Live during the Kobe Bryant trial? I think Tina Fey is brilliant, kinda hot, and I liked what she did at the gut level...but if I am really going to be intellectually honest can I have to ask why she got a pass and revolutionmuslim.com did not.

[ragnarcissist]

also back in the nineties, som neo-****s wanted to march on washington and were allowed to because of the 1st amendment. they said they wouldnt make threats so they they let them go on with it....

[olberon]

after doing a quicky google on this "church" of homophobes (is a better name for them imo) i found one ammusing thing on their website.

http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh593/warhammerpaintservice/Crimson%20Fists/rofl.gif

The " xxx people whom God has cast into hell since you loaded this page." made my day !! im going to keep that one running for 24 hours.


On a more serious note: tho there is a "freedom of speech law" in almost every country these guys should be prosecuted for preaching hate against a select group of people.

Not being religious myself (part Jew brought up Catholic married a Muslim) Im convinced a religion should preach compassion to your fellow human/animal/plant (you name it) and not hate or fear.

just my 2 eurocents :D

[DarkLink]

However was what they did that much different than when Tina Fey read out attorney Pamela MacKey's name and address on Saturday Night Live during the Kobe Bryant trial? I think Tina Fey is brilliant, kinda hot, and I liked what she did at the gut level...but if I am really going to be intellectually honest can I have to ask why she got a pass and revolutionmuslim.com did not.

There's a lot to do with intent and perception. Since Tina Fey is a comedian on SNL, everything on there is on the context of a joke. Unlike the revolutionaries, it's hard to argue that she was communicating an implied threat.

This is also the sort of thing the police don't have the means to look for themselves, for the most part. They might monitor extremist groups for threats, but they can't read every blog post or tv show ever, and for the reasons mentioned in the first point they probably wouldn't do anything unless they had a good reason to do so if they did hear about this. This would only come to court if Pamela MacKey heard about it, took issue, and sued.

If you want to read more about this sort of stuff, go to popehat.com. I linked to it in the gun control thread, but it has a ton of quality content (and some naughty language and internet mockery as well) on legal issues such as this one. I've learned a lot about the legal process just by following the blog for a few weeks.